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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: Dacuda on March 19, 2018, 02:30:58 PM
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Ok I got my 117 Bolt on kit and trying to decide which cam is better, the 259 cam or the 585
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Ok I got my 117 Bolt on kit and trying to decide which cam is better, the 259 cam or the 585
SE 585 Cam, hands down for touring. Torque curve almost straight up..not quite but very nice. I made 121/136 I wanted the torque where I could really use it 2000-3500 .
SE259 cam is a " hot rod" cam with more happening to the right, yes it will make good power needs compression . I wanted the torque where I could really use it 2000-3500 for touring.
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SE 585 Cam, hands down for touring. Torque curve almost straight up..not quite but very nice. I made 121/136 I wanted the torque where I could really use it 2000-3500 .
SE259 cam is a " hot rod" cam with more happening to the right, yes it will make good power needs compression . I wanted the torque where I could really use it 2000-3500 for touring.
What he said :thumbsup:
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Or raise the compression, don't let the ratio scare you. That's what the 259 needs to have it all. Add porting and have more of torque and horsepower yet.
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Texas 103
SE 585 Cam, hands down for touring. Torque curve almost straight up..not quite but very nice. I made 121/136 I wanted the torque where I could really use it 2000-3500 .
SE259 cam is a " hot rod" cam with more happening to the right, yes it will make good power needs compression . I wanted the torque where I could really use it 2000-3500 for touring.
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Could you please post your Dyno Sheet.
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Texas 103
SE 585 Cam, hands down for touring. Torque curve almost straight up..not quite but very nice. I made 121/136 I wanted the torque where I could really use it 2000-3500 .
SE259 cam is a " hot rod" cam with more happening to the right, yes it will make good power needs compression . I wanted the torque where I could really use it 2000-3500 for touring.
Could you please post your Dyno Sheet.
Absolutely, it's at the house, will be later today
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Texas 103
SE 585 Cam, hands down for touring. Torque curve almost straight up..not quite but very nice. I made 121/136 I wanted the torque where I could really use it 2000-3500 .
SE259 cam is a " hot rod" cam with more happening to the right, yes it will make good power needs compression . I wanted the torque where I could really use it 2000-3500 for touring.
Could you please post your Dyno Sheet.
https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=111497.0
Think that will get you to Gregs sheet if he doesn't get the chance to post it
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I am ready to do the 117 kit. If I use the 585 cam can I use the pushrods that come with the kit? I know someone will recommend adjustable push rods, (and I know they are ok, but I still prefer one piece rods). Thoughts?
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I am ready to do the 117 kit. If I use the 585 cam can I use the pushrods that come with the kit? I know someone will recommend adjustable push rods, (and I know they are ok, but I still prefer one piece rods). Thoughts?
The lift of the 259 cam is .579", and the 585 is .584". I'm guessing the base circle diameter is either the same or very close, and if that is true then yes the perfect fit pushrods from the kit should work. You really need to verify, don't go by my guesswork.
Jerry
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https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=111497.0
Think that will get you to Gregs sheet if he doesn't get the chance to post it
Thanks David , knew it was on here somewhere.
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I am ready to do the 117 kit. If I use the 585 cam can I use the pushrods that come with the kit? I know someone will recommend adjustable push rods, (and I know they are ok, but I still prefer one piece rods). Thoughts?
I have the perfect fit pushrods that came with my kit. PM me if you are interested . I went with the SE 24 TPI Adjustable. 2.5 Turns will get you about .100 preload. I personally would use that adjustables, that way you can control your lifter pre load. Perfect fit's will work too, either way.
Take your time, pay attention to the little things, zero deck cyls, .030 gasket, 2.120 intake, just good basic stuff, nothing trick that will net you a lot. Nothing done to my heads except, milled .018 ( wet Head) , good valve job and clean up and 2.120 intake. No porting. Get a good tune! Think you will be happy with that combination. PM me if you'd like to chat.
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Nice build there Harry
Installing a larger valve in the 110 heads does not make much difference if the port geometry is not fixed.
The 259 may not be the best cam for the 117 but it will certainly work well when the proper compression is applied and better yet when the heads are fixed. The 585 may be a good torque grind but is too short for a 117" in my humble opinion.
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Nice build there Harry
Installing a larger valve in the 110 heads does not make much difference if the port geometry is not fixed.
The 259 may not be the best cam for the 117 but it will certainly work well when the proper compression is applied and better yet when the heads are fixed. The 585 may be a good torque grind but is too short for a 117" in my humble opinion.
Thanks Don, but this is not my build I only gave some input on it. This is Texas103's build :) I was just helping to post the dynosheet for him.
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Thanks David , knew it was on here somewhere.
Harry helped you out too
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Thanks for all the recommendations, I like the torque of the 585s and like the power right off the line, I see that the 259s are good all the way through but I'm not worried about top speed so I think I will go with the 585s, basically I'm not doing any head work at the moment other than doing the .030 gasket so I'll see how it goes for now, I'm sure Nick at Trask Performance here in Phoenix or Steve at Fullsac Performance will be able to really tweak it on the Dyno
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Thanks for all the recommendations, I like the torque of the 585s and like the power right off the line, I see that the 259s are good all the way through but I'm not worried about top speed so I think I will go with the 585s, basically I'm not doing any head work at the moment other than doing the .030 gasket so I'll see how it goes for now, I'm sure Nick at Trask Performance here in Phoenix or Steve at Fullsac Performance will be able to really tweak it on the Dyno
Think you will be happy with that route
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Harry helped you out too
Amen!
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Think you will be happy with that route
Steve @ Fullsac is your man> Think you will be very happy with that build,. His DX pipe works very well. Two of my other buds run that pipe , happy campers..
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Amen!
When he posted that sheet at first glance I thought it was mine, then I saw the torque numbers.....lol
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ok I give, where can I get this 117 kit? I know a lot of guys sell it but sounds like you guys know your stuff.
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ok I give, where can I get this 117 kit? I know a lot of guys sell it but sounds like you guys know your stuff.
My suggestion would be Boardtracker HD. You can order it online from them and they are a 20% off dealer.
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Ordered the 117 kit and the 585 cams. I am not doing any head work. My question is if a .030 head gasket is too much for the cams, or do I play it safe and use the gasket from the kit? And if I do use the .030 gasket will there be a problem with the perfect fit pushrods? I don’t want to have a problem with detonation come summertime.
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Ordered the 117 kit and the 585 cams. I am not doing any head work. My question is if a .030 head gasket is too much for the cams, or do I play it safe and use the gasket from the kit? And if I do use the .030 gasket will there be a problem with the perfect fit pushrods? I don’t want to have a problem with detonation come summertime.
You will be fine with the 585 and the .030 gasket. Get the bike tuned by a pro and summertime will not be a problem for you. As for the perfect fit, someone else will chime in, but I think you will still be just fine as you are only changing the height by .010. Not sure if you are looking at a home build or shop build but would strongly recommend that you 0 deck your cyls while your in that deep. No reason not to get all you can get and prevent detonation
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Just had mine done and used the.030 gasket, and everything else that cam with the kit, you will be fine.
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You will be fine with the 585 and the .030 gasket. Get the bike tuned by a pro and summertime will not be a problem for you. As for the perfect fit, someone else will chime in, but I think you will still be just fine as you are only changing the height by .010. Not sure if you are looking at a home build or shop build but would strongly recommend that you 0 deck your cyls while your in that deep. No reason not to get all you can get and prevent detonation
Have the .030 gasket, SE 585 cams , Heads shaved .018, zero decked. 10:57.1 Static compression, 9.96:1 corrected. Had to run some 91 going through OK. last July, no problem. The tune is the key!, Find a good tuner!! Like David mentioned , Zero deck cyls and .030 gasket is cheap horsepower. Squish is one of the other keys, as close to .030 net as you can.
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Ordered the 117 kit and the 585 cams. I am not doing any head work. My question is if a .030 head gasket is too much for the cams, or do I play it safe and use the gasket from the kit? And if I do use the .030 gasket will there be a problem with the perfect fit pushrods? I don’t want to have a problem with detonation come summertime.
Will work fine. Compression is still low due to fat squish. The deck height is low on these 117 and 110 bolt on combinations IME. Cylinders need to be cut to fix that.
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I went with 585 cams and everything else in kit. I dont have dyno sheet yet to post but will very soon.
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I went with 585 cams and everything else in kit. I dont have dyno sheet yet to post but will very soon.
Good deal, think you'll like it..
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Will work fine. Compression is still low due to fat squish. The deck height is low on these 117 and 110 bolt on combinations IME. Cylinders need to be cut to fix that.
Mne was.009 and .011 in the hole, fixed that real quick
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Mne was.009 and .011 in the hole, fixed that real quick
I'll see that .009 and .011 and raise you a .008 and a .012... :bananarock:
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I'll see that .009 and .011 and raise you a .008 and a .012... :bananarock:
Damn.OK....I'm ALL IN!!
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KB has some nice forged pistons now for the 117 and 110 bolt on and it allows honing +.001 to achieve clearance. Trues them right up plus with a small dome adds compression to help.
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Quality pistons. I switched to KB a while ago. They have pistons for just about anything you could want. ;)
John
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Just had my 2016 limited fitted with SE 585 cams, lifters and adjustable push rods, dyno'd at 110hp and 130tq, very happy with results.
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That is an unusually high result. Was the correction factor SAE? Can you post the sheet?
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I guess I should have mentioned that it has Fullsac DX header, RC 4" mufflers and KN air filter, I had posted on earlier post. But will post dyno sheet when I get back in town.
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Oh it's tuned with the now illegal SE race tuner
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Forgot about posting my dyno sheet
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So there is another approach that will net you the same or more torque even down low and about 125/130. Use the kit cam, 259E, and fix the squish, zero deck, head work. Use a pipe that is conducive to power and torque and a custom tune with a flash tuner. The 259E is not my favorite but does OK when the compression is as it should be with this 46° intake close. Want a little more torque and power, advance it 4°.
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Certainly nothing wrong with 259 cams if you want to correct the insufficient compression of the 117 kit. Personally, i didn't want to up the compression and decided to change out the cam in the kit instead. For my riding style, i have more than enough power now and compression is a mild 9.93:1
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Is it worth the expense though? My stock block 110 makes 105/110 with less than the best cam change, andrews 54, a pipe and tune. Comes on right off idle, a function of the pipe, fulsack dx with 2.0 baffles. The compression number is relative to the intake close. Many guys set on a compression limit number then build around that. Not my approach but not saying their method won't get them down the road and is horribly wrong. My opinion is, if modified, I want to be at the 1hp and tq per cube or more or I don't bother, on my own bike.
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Is it worth the expense though? My stock block 110 makes 105/110 with less than the best cam change, andrews 54, a pipe and tune. Comes on right off idle, a function of the pipe, fulsack dx with 2.0 baffles. The compression number is relative to the intake close. Many guys set on a compression limit number then build around that. Not my approach but not saying their method won't get them down the road and is horribly wrong. My opinion is, if modified, I want to be at the 1hp and tq per cube or more or I don't bother, on my own bike.
Only you can answer that for yourself. I have owned about a dozen or so Harleys and this is only my 2nd build. Most of them I did a Stage 1 and that was it. The first one I had built i did a high compression build with a horsepower cam and heads and got tired of the hard starting, compression releases, soft bottom end and high strung feeling when idling around. It was fun when I wanted to hot rod but most of my riding is country roads and weekend trips. If I am being completely honest I would say no, the cost of a build is not worth it. There are diminishing returns and it doesn't take a 117 to enjoy the scenery and the ride. I could do the same rides on my 88s. So, if value or money is an issue don't do a build. Its money you wont get back and largely an extravagance. Having said that, I would do it again. I have the coin and don't mind the extravagance of it. I would not do another high compression build on a twin cam or a high HP cam. I didn't enjoy riding it nearly as much and the noisy top end got on my nerves. YMMV
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I'm considering this kit for my CVO Breakout and was wondering if there are any additional parts / gaskets that will be required that don't come with the kit?? Considering a local indy doing it to possibly save some cash on the install but want to make sure I am supplying all the components..
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I'm considering this kit for my CVO Breakout and was wondering if there are any additional parts / gaskets that will be required that don't come with the kit?? Considering a local indy doing it to possibly save some cash on the install but want to make sure I am supplying all the components..
The kit includes all gaskets and everything you need. The problem is the cams that come in the kit are not optimum for the compression and you end up with a soft bottom...right where you ride. Thats why a lot of guys, me included, swapped the cams out of the kit for a little less cam. I ended up selling the new 259s that came with the kit and all my 110 parts that were replaced. You will need a tuner and exhaust setup...those aren't included.
As far as labor for the install, my dealer was running a wintertime special and did the install and tune for $600 labor. He also knocked 20% off the kit price. My point is don't assume your indy is less expensive...some small dealers have excellent wintertime specials.
Good luck...please keep us posted.
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Thanks Stratplexi for the info. I'll have to look into the local dealers and if there are any winter specials, haven't heard of any yet but will keep checking. As for the cam, as you can see i have a Breakout so don't necessarily ride like the touring guys so not sure if the 259s cam will be good for my "bar hopping" riding style or not.
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It will be ideal and better yet if the dealer will allow added compression.
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Thanks Stratplexi for the info. I'll have to look into the local dealers and if there are any winter specials, haven't heard of any yet but will keep checking. As for the cam, as you can see i have a Breakout so don't necessarily ride like the touring guys so not sure if the 259s cam will be good for my "bar hopping" riding style or not.
My opinion is the 259 cam needs 10.5:1 compression. I would recommend you talk to the mechanic who is going to do the work before making final decision. The last thing you want is a bike with a soft bottom end...they are not as fun to ride. Once you hit 3K RPMs the fun begins but riding like that gets fatiguing IMHO. I ride mine fairly hard but i don't have to for the power snd torque to be there. Anyway, just my perspective.
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It's all tune dependent. With a dealer that is using a canned map they must leave the kits as they come. The 117 at 10:1 with the 259 will not be soft unless it has a stupid pipe choice but it can pick up a bit more everywhere with a custom tune and compression optimization. Head work, better yet.