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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: larouchedem on January 04, 2005, 11:37:34 PM
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Hello All,
New member here. Non CVO owner. A discussion at a TC88 yahoo group sent me here. We have cam specs, but we're curious about the heads, pistons, etc. Round chamber? Slanted quench design? Flat top piston? If flat, we're wondering if the piston is same as the SE stroker piston. Anyone have a parts book? A pic of the chambers? TIA
Dave
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Here are some pics of the 103 heads. Just waiting until I figure out just what cams and headwork I am going to have done before I install on my 2004 FLHTCI
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A pic of the combustion chamber. Full hemi-style.
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Another view of the combustion chamber
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The exhaust port. Notice the big hump, restriction at the bottom of the port.
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Intake valve. Looks like about a 1.92 inch to me.
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Valve springs with damper inside.
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Exhaust Valve. Sorry it is overexposed but it reads about 1.62 on the caliper
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Here is the piston. Definately a flatop with valve reliefs.
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Top view of piston
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This is a view of the intake port. Note the hump in there also
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Bubbarosa,
I have an 04 SE CVO engine, the heads have been reworked (SBC "pro flow" O ring sealed bronze maganese guide, SBC Viton seals, Full Porting, high velocity ports, Proprierty "Twin Swirl" combustion chambers, flow vanes incorporated into the ports to enhance swirl) Basically welding up and maching the large combustion chambers of the 103 Heads, by SBC in Phoenix.
Going with Andrews TW55G cams, Baker DDS 6 Speed. Probably oing with the Rinehart or RB Racing 2:1 Black Hole.
Conservativley looking at 110 H and 115 lbft TQ. I will find out in April when I get to Phoenix.
geezerglide
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Someday if i ever find my degree wheel I might degree the cams, being nobody/nowhere have i ever seen any specs on them except the .530 lift spec. and will post the results of that. Meantime if anybody wants to buy em they are for sale as I am going to use either Wood TW8g's or Andrews TW55g's.
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I also have D & D fatcat 2 into 1 exhaust on back order. I guess I wil have to pay harley a bunch of money to for an SE Race Tuner. I already have a PowerCommander IIIusb on it, but dont thing with just the stage one 88cu flash it has the range to up the fuel requirements for this engine. With harley charging $150 for the reflash's, I might as well do it myself with the race tuner. Rineharts sound real good but dont do much for torque, and they are terrible to ride behind them on a 103, very loud. Also looking very hard at this Fuel Injection Unit by Twin-Tec. The price for the new unit has dropped by more than half. http://www.daytona-twintec.com/TCFI.html
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Hey geezerglide. I am looking at Short Block Charlies 103 head modification also. I saw a posting by him a while back and he said it would be somewhere in the $700 range. Is this in the ballpark? I am very interested in your rusults in that motor.
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Bubbarosa,
Thanks. I assume these are factory CVO103 heads, and not the over the counter version "SE" 103 heads?
Fyi - I posted cam specs in another thread.
Dave
link=board=CVO_TC;num=1104899854;start=0#1 date=01/05/05 at 11:27:59]Here are some pics of the 103 heads.
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I've posted this elsewhere on this site, but these posts seems to get buried. Just for comparison for you guys here's the motor I built last year and results.
Screamin Eagle CNC heads
Wood TW6HG cams
Ported Stock Throttle Body
Screamin Eagle Forged Flat Top Pistons
Cometic .030 gaskets (Compression Ratio is Exactly 10:1)
Screamin Eagle Roller Rockers
Jims Titianium Pushrods
Feuling Oil Pump
Delkron Plate
Power Commander III USB
Freedom Pipes
Last Dyno Run in August was
Horsepower 118.6
Torque 121.1
I think you can reasonably expect these results with these components and proper tuning. In fact, with a better induction system with a dual runner setup I think more power is easily achieved. The best thing about this setup is the slightly lower compression ratio. With the psitons and heads in the pictures, you'll have to deck the heads and use the .030 gaskets just to get to 10:1. The CNC heads have bigger valves, porting and the combustion chamber is slightly different. The is a squench band and the spark plug is moved closer to the center. Hope this info helps you in your builds and gives a point of comparison.
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Bubbarosa,
No offense meant, but a true HEMI has a center spark plug. These might be considered "semi-hemi", although I dislike that term. I assume that there is a slanted quench surface machined into the edge of the chamber? Can you measure the angle of it?
Thanks.
Dave
link=board=CVO_TC;num=1104899854;start=0#2 date=01/05/05 at 11:28:51]A pic of the combustion chamber.
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Hmm measure the angle. Ok... I will try... lets see what i remember about sine's, cosines, and tangents... ugggh. Ok SEMI-HEMI.. anyway the chamber is dome shaped.
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the angle of the taper is 25deg.... it is .135 wide and .064 deep approximately and total run on the angle of about .149
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Bubbarosa,
Cool. I've been wondering if the angle would match the slanted quench design SE103" stroker piston that's used with the HTCC heads.
**Are the pics of a factroy CV0103 head, and not an over the counter SE103 head?
Thanks much.
Dave
p.s. - can you measure the outer diameter of the slanted area?
link=board=CVO_TC;num=1104899854;start=15#19 date=01/05/05 at 14:00:13]the angle of the taper is 25deg.... it is .135 wide and .064 deep approximately and total run on the angle of about .149[/quote]
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These heads are the ones in the factory 103 kit that states is same as found on the factory cvo SE bikes. http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524448764975
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Bubbarosa,
Hmm. I was told that the over the counter version was different than the factory bikes' heads. Thanks for the info!
Dave
link=board=CVO_TC;num=1104899854;start=15#21 date=01/05/05 at 14:10:53]These heads are the ones in the factory 103 kit that states is same as found on the factory cvo SE bikes.
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there is another version of the 103 heads, a performance version that do not have the 103 script on the head. They just say Screaming Eagle on them not Screaming Eagle 103
They are listed as Screaming Eagle 103+
http://www.harley-davidson.com/pdf/SE_032_067.pdf
go to item 42 There is a chart after item 47 to give you the comp ratio's of the different pistons and heads
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Bubbarosa,
Thanks for the info. I can't get the files
at the MoCo's site to load, as my phone line hookup is lousy. I wish that they listed everything the old way there. It was easy to access. I do have a pro parts printed catalog coming, so I'll have a look when I get it.
Dave
link=board=CVO_TC;num=1104899854;start=15#23 date=01/05/05 at 14:28:25]there is another version of the 103 heads, a performance version that do not have the 103 script on the head.
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OH boy... u need a blueprint... the outside diameter of the whole hole is 3.785
inside the taper it is 3.52 and depth is approx 1 inch.. measured with my Home Depot calibrated yard stick
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Bubbarosa,
I am not to sure of the pricing as SBC does various Head Work. Best bet is to email;
charlie@motorcycle machine.com, or better yet describe your build and ideas and discuss with both Charlie and Hippo (Frank), for the best results.
Phone number is 480-921-1446.
The heads I have are the one twer on the Factory SE 103" on the Electra Glides for 04.
geezerglide
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Check the Screamin Eagle Performance Parts Catalog. There is a piston head compatability matrix which shows the two different types of 103" chamber designs and the pistons these will be copmpatibel with. Generally, with one exception I think, HTCC heads and pistons must go together. I think the CNC heads are the only ones which will accomodate flat top pistins and HTCC pistons a s well. It's easy if you just get the catalog.
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Bubbarosa,
Thanks.
Dave
link=board=CVO_TC;num=1104899854;start=15#25 date=01/05/05 at 15:16:34]OH boy... u need a blueprint... the outside diameter of the whole hole is 3.785
inside the taper it is 3.52 and depth is approx 1 inch.. measured with my Home Depot calibrated yard stick[/quote]
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PCC,
I have a printed catalog coming. Can't get any of the MoCo's pdf files to load on my pc.
Understood, but I'm wondering if it might be quite simple to mod the CVO103 heads to work with the HTCC pistons.
Not sure why I spend time on such wonder-ments. I don't even have a CVO bike. I just enjoy figuring out what can work.
Dave
'99 FXDL 118" -133/142 at the wheel
'02 FLHT
link=board=CVO_TC;num=1104899854;start=15#27 date=01/05/05 at 16:03:50]Check the Screamin Eagle Performance Parts Catalog. There is a piston head compatability matrix which shows the two different types of 103" chamber designs and the pistons these will be copmpatibel with. Generally, with one exception I think, HTCC heads and pistons must go together. I think the CNC heads are the only ones which will accomodate flat top pistins and HTCC pistons a s well. It's easy if you just get the catalog.[/quote]
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PCC,
I have a printed catalog coming. Can't get any of the MoCo's pdf files to load on my pc.
Understood, but I'm wondering if it might be quite simple to mod the CVO103 heads to work with the HTCC pistons.
Not sure why I spend time on such wonder-ments. I don't even have a CVO bike. I just enjoy figuring out what can work.
Dave
'99 FXDL 118" -133/142 at the wheel
'02 FLHT
link=board=CVO_TC;num=1104899854;start=15#27 date=01/05/05 at 16:03:50]Check the Screamin Eagle Performance Parts Catalog. There is a piston head compatability matrix which shows the two different types of 103" chamber designs and the pistons these will be copmpatibel with. Generally, with one exception I think, HTCC heads and pistons must go together. I think the CNC heads are the only ones which will accomodate flat top pistins and HTCC pistons a s well. It's easy if you just get the catalog.
There's a Screamin Eagle Parts Catalog scanned a posted on this site (in PDF format, if I remember correctly) somewhere.
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JCZ,
>There's a Screamin Eagle Parts Catalog scanned a posted on this site (in PDF format, if I remember correctly) somewhere.[/quote]
Thanks. I'll have a look around.
Dave
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Bubbarosa,
Fwiw, Imeasured the angle on the HTCC pistons' quench area. 30 degrees. So, it looks to me that it might be a snap to re-machine the quench surface in the CVO heads and use those pistons. However, I've no idea what the dome volume is, or what the chamber volume is on the CVO heads.
Regards,
Dave
link=board=CVO_TC;num=1104899854;start=15#19 date=01/05/05 at 14:00:13]the angle of the taper is 25deg.... it is .135 wide and .064 deep approximately and total run on the angle of about .149[/quote]
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Makes me think harley did that angle thing just to sell parts... so you cant use your stock heads with those 10.5 to 1 pistons.
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Bubbarosa,
It looks [from pics] that the stock heads have a slanted quench area, which makes no sense to me due to the fact that the piston is flat. The HTCC heads have a slanted quench area, that matches the slanted quench area on the HTCC pistons. Would the HTCC stroker 103" piston work with the stock CVO heads> Good question. I suspect that it could be done. The quench surface in the heads may need to be re-machined, but that's not a bif deal, and it's dome in other applications. If I had a CVO and I wanted to add compression [and quench], I'd look into it.
Dave
link=board=CVO_TC;num=1104899854;start=30#33 date=01/14/05 at 08:58:04]Makes me think harley did that angle thing just to sell parts... so you cant use your stock heads with those 10.5 to 1 pistons. [/quote]
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Guys,
Have a look at this mornings post by Charlie of SBC, re. 103 SE Heads, it explains a lot.
He has done a set of SE 103" Heads for me. Will be installed on Engine within the next few weeks.
geezerglide
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Guys,
Have a look at this mornings post by Charlie of SBC, re. 103 SE Heads, it explains a lot.
He has done a set of SE 103" Heads for me. Will be installed on Engine
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There's a Screamin Eagle Parts Catalog scanned a posted on this site (in PDF format, if I remember correctly) somewhere.
Screamin Eagle Parts Catalog scanned a posted on this site (in PDF format http://www.harley-davidson.com/pdf/SE_032_067.pdf
You asked ...
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DavidB,
Can not post before Dyno run, as the engine is a brand new 04 CVO 103". The engine that I am replacing in my 03 Road Glide was a 95" c/w SE Heads, reworked by SBC, with SE Flat Top Pistons, SE 251 cam, V&H Pro Pipe. It was putting out 98 HP and 104 lb ft Torque.
I will post dyno of the completed CVO 103" when engine is reassembled and I get down to Phoenix.
geezerglide
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Bubbarosa
new to the forum, I have some experience with the twin-tec, my friend put the unit on his 03 SE Road King and has no computer skills. We tinker with stuff all the time and I got elected to do the program. It was a little complicated at first, but after talking with the man that designed it, who is pretty sharp, we started getting the hang of it, little bit by bit. The instructions are somewhat confusing, but I do like the unit.
The only real bug we still have a problem and not all the time with, is the fast idle warm-up time out to normal idle ie: open loop, closed loop.
All in all with the self tuning (to a degree) I would recommend the unit and especially since the price has gone down.