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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: pappy2 on April 24, 2005, 09:02:59 AM
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[smiley=nixweiss.gif]I am interested in the best performance package for an 05 SEEG that can be had without endangering the 2yr warranty and ,hopefully, can be done by the dealer when I pick the thing up in mid May.
I have two other bikes fill my needs for speed (Ducati 999 and Triumph Rocket III) but want the SEEG to look and sound great while performing as well as possible inside the HD warranty parameters. I intend to ride the chit out of it for two years and want a no hassle warranty in place no matter what dealer I may end up at in my travels. I also live in South Florida where heat is a major issue. I like the look of the true duals from rinehart which I hope do not impact the warrranty and have been told they sound very good.
I have read through all the threads on performance for the 103 but want to get clear advice on this specific topic if possible.
I also want to go ahead with the 12" Progressive 440's and hope they will not raise any warranty issues.
Last but not least suggestions for additional HD chrome and functional touring stuff to enhance the look and usefullness would be appreciated. I know this is personal but this is my first HD non-chopper and I have no experience at this. I do intend to add my escort Solo along with the radar screamer for a little blue light protection.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts you have time to share. I will get the thing Dyno'd when done and share the results along with pictures.
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The dealer can perform a stage 1 setup with no warranty issues. The bike will run much cooler and the true duals will help it run a lot better. I would also run a larger throttle body with the proper ECM changes. I don't know what the dealer will say about that. I personally don't worry about warranty issues. These motors are pretty tough and have rev limiters set at around 5800 rpm. Running on the highway you will stay around 3000 rpm. I would also run amsoil syn oil and not syn3 after your 500 mile service.
I hope this helps you out. I'm sure some others will chime in here and give some other ideas. thats one of the great thing about this site. Stay safe.
THE DAWG
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OH and BTW Pappy pardon me for being so rude.
WELCOME TO THE SITE!!!!!!!!!
Saty Safe
THE DAWG
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Thanks for the advice, this site has already brought me luck as I was not able to officially put my deposit down until I got the call today and now it is just a waiting game for the delivery of my banana. This may sound stupid but what exactly is the stage one kit for the SE 103? I am a novice when it comes to stock harley stuff as I only owned a Pat Kennedy chopper that ran an SU carb and open pipes and generally fell apart on each outing. My best riding buddy has an UC that has the big bore kit, a power commander that blinked out on him and runs a 2-1 pro pipe. He blew the head gaskets out one day a couple of weeks ago and I am a little leary because he keeps getting shut down on rides. In fairness he has about 15K miles on the thing in a couple of years and has a strong right wrist so it does get a work out. This probably explains my warranty madness as well.
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I would also run amsoil syn oil and not syn3 after your 500 mile service.
THE DAWG
Yo Dawg,
No offense, but have heard nothing but good stuff about Syn3 in all 3 holes from guys running it over 40K miles so far. Syn3 is an excellent pure synthetic from all I've read. You don't sell Amsoil on the side, do ya Dawg? [smiley=laugh.gif]
elvis
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Yo Dawg,
No offense, but have heard nothing but good stuff about Syn3 in all 3 holes from guys running it over 40K miles so far.
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Elvis,
Unfortunately I'll have to be the first then to pop the "Syn3 in all three holes" universally positive vote.
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Well, that's what I like about this forum...more information is always good. The Redline in the tranny sounds like a good option but remember these 'tests' are difficult to make sense of because 'bits' can come from hard shifting...but I think it's a valid point. Was the test from MCN or who did it?
Next question: how often are you changing the oil filter with the Syn3? I have always thought the 5K between filter changes is the weak link in the synthetic maintainance plan, just can't see an oil filter working well past 3K but here again, maybe there is a test on this you know about and more info is good...
thanks,
elvis
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Elvis I am a commercial Amsoil dealer. No I don't sell it on the side. I buy it at the commercial rate(which is less than the retailers) for my own use. I do run it in everything I own. I have a HVAC business on the side and I do run Ford F450's and F350's up and down the road. I just put an injector in one of those power strokes with 164,000 miles on it. When the valve cover came of the top of the head still looked like it was a new engine. So I figure if it can keep a diesel engine clean how will it help my Harley.
The aftermarket shops around here don't run Syn3. They run either Amsoil or Redline. You might even see some Bel-Ray trannie fluid in some of the shops also. Bel-ray is what baker recomends (or did when I bought my last one) One of the H/D shops around here even sells Amsoil 20w50 V twin motorcycle oil.
It's just my opinion. I am sure one of the guys that work for a dealer will chime in here and let us know about all of the Harley Davidson propaganda he has downloaded in him!
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Elvis I am a commercial Amsoil dealer. No I don't sell it on the side. I buy it at the commercial rate(which is less than the retailers) for my own use. I do run it in everything I own. I have a HVAC business on the side and I do run Ford F450's and F350's up and down the road. I just put an injector in one of those power strokes with 164,000 miles on it. When the valve cover came of the top of the head still looked like it was a new engine. So I figure if it can keep a diesel engine clean how will it help my Harley.
The aftermarket shops around here
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[smiley=nixweiss.gif]I am interested in the best performance package for an 05 SEEG that can be had without endangering the 2yr warranty and ,hopefully, can be done by the dealer when I pick the thing up in mid May.
I have two other bikes fill my needs for speed (Ducati 999 and Triumph Rocket III) but want the SEEG to look and sound great while performing as well as possible inside the HD warranty parameters.
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Thanks for all the advice so far. I called Zippers about using their EFI with the Reinharts and air cleaner as it is a plug in and can be unplugged and replaced with the stock in a heartbeat if I have any warranty troubles. They did indicate that they are redline distributors and have seen 10 degrees drop in oil temp using the redline products. Maybe some sales issues but seemed worth a shot for a Tropical climate gut to try. Anyone try there stuff in a basically stock motor. The EFI claims to have like 1900 adjustment points versus 60 or so for the PC or RT which seems to make some sense? They do have it premapped for a SE air cleaner and Reinhart true duals which makes getting the thing put together mighty easy. It might be fun to start base stock ride a little and add things to see what difference they make. [smiley=confused5.gif]
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"I would also run a larger throttle body with the proper ECM changes. I don't know what the dealer will say about that."
DC? I spoke to Zippers about this and they suggested I go ahead for the summer and run just their EFI, Reinhart True Duals and SE AC. They are expecting to have their Throttle body/AC assembly ready to accept the SE cover by then and I would prefer to keep the stock look if I can and might enjoy the changes over time. I think you added some stuff to the increased compression thread and assume you left that out here because of the increased heat issues as well as warranty. Two of my friends here in South FL run higher compression 95s and seem to run into heat issues alot more after the hop ups. I would really rather not have to stop a troll down the beach to let my bike cool down if I can avoid it and am looking to add the oil temp gauge just to keep an eye on it. [smiley=1syellow1.gif]JP
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Pappy I was over at Zippers the other day. They have a motor with the throttle body on display. It uses the old evo style round air cleaner and looks great. I'm going into my old parts stock and dig one out and send it out to have some kind of custom engraving put on it. If you keep your compression in the 10. to 1 range I don't think you will have a problem. I would also change to another syn motor oil for the heat issues. Amsoil, redline and even Royal Purple. They do sell redline. I think you will be fine in the heat with the changes you want to do right now.
The Zippers ECM I think has more than 1900 adjustments I think it's more like 4100 compared to Harleys 40. Don't quote me on that but I think that is what Bill told me the other day. Good luck with your decision
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Spoke to Zippers again today and found out the following. 05 SE 103 heads require different maps and they hope to have them ready in a few weeks so I will have to wait for them to be finished. The Reinhart pipes they recommend are the basic model true dual without any additional baffle or competition inserts.
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I guess I'm still old school. I still like the thunder header. The R&D guys at Zippers like the D&D fat cat. I guess thats why there are so many choices. I would guess the difference in the heads was to statisfy the EPA.
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DCFIREMAN - the thunderheaders are great - have not personally run them - but alot of personal experience riding them - watching them on the dyno - outstanding performers - I just perfered the rineharts w/high performance baffling - they just plain ran better on this bike (first yellow on the site might I add [smiley=1syellow1.gif]) been reviewing your input as to hp upgrades and given combinations - might i add a significant point - an engine has a personality of its own - not 2 bikes with the identical combinations will run the same - but close - they each will maintain their own special touch.
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I just perfered the rineharts w/high performance baffling - they just plain ran better on this bike.
Can't find the thread where you probably mention this but what size baffles did you go with on your Rineharts? Stock baffle is 2 1/4", if I remember correctly.
thanks,
elvis
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DCFIREMAN - the thunderheaders are great - have not personally run them
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Well, I have decided to use the Zippers ECM, Rineharts and SE air cleaner for now. I have to wait for Zippers to finish mapping the ECM for the 05 103 heads with Rineharts which should be a few weeks. When they get their 50mm throttle/AC to fit the stock SE cover (I really like the stock engine look and the ease of taking the stuff off if I don't care for it) I will give that a try as well. I will post dyno numbers when they are available. As for the warranty stuff, I am willing to take this much risk and believe that the clean burning, open breathing method of power production versus compression is worth a try for overall useable power. I don't really care about the charted numbers as long as the thing pulls strong, is reliable and runs as cool as possible. My bike landed today [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]and will be picked up next week stock while I wait for Zippers. Thanks to all for your advice and hope to see some more Zippers projects. As I have said before their highly adjustable ECM just makes to much sense for me not to give it a try. Is anyone using the o2 sensor on the rineharts for anything? That seems like info that could be helpful in making the thing burn correctly.
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Pappy I think you will be happy at least for a while with your upgrades. Stay safe.
THE DAWG
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Pappy, what's the cost for the 50MM throttle body? Do you need to run the Zippers ECM or can the Race Tuner handle the tuning? Congrats on your canary! Spook.
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i can get the R/H high performance baffle part number tonight -but that is basically what they are listed under when ordered
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Zippers tells me that the throttle body a/c together are around 1,000. I do not know if the race tuner will work with their TB but Zippers have been great to talk to and you should give them a call. Their web site is http://www.zippersperformance.com and I have been talking to a guy named Pete. Since I "decided", I have seen the Daytona Twin Tec with WEGO unit at http://www.daytona-twintec.com/ which is intrigueing as well with the ride and tune feature that would plug into the o2 sensor on the reinharts and tune the thing while you ride and adjust as you make any other mods. I want to check into this for grins as it also makes some sense and find out how truely variable their ECM is versus the multitude of adjustments available on the Zippers. There is a BC Gerolamy throttle body kit with an air cleaner that I think will fit the SE cover for 1,280 on http://www.bcheads.com/fuel.htm.
This is the ECM, Auto tuner, twin throttle body and HO AC which with the reinharts for 700 should bring the whole thing in under 2K. I clearly still think Zippers is a better option for now but I am going to research the other one. I will ask Zippers if they tune their ECM to the bc throttle body-AC thing as that could be the best of both worlds. I wonder how the Daytona is able to tune two cylinders running from seperate pipes with one o2 sensor and if the thing really results in usable power and a clean burn. Lots to learn. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Spook - great to see you thinking about this as maybe your feeling a little better and at least dreaming about riding that Apple of yours again. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Spook_103,
Here are the "Retail Prices" Zipper's quoted me:
Thundermax ECM (preprogrammed to my application): $429.95
50 mm throttle body
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Got a call from Zippers late today and was told my ECM was ready for the Rinehart/SE Air Cleaner option on an 05 SEEG 103. I went ahead and ordered it for 430 + shp and will get the pipes either off Ebay or from Cyborg for around 650 delivered. Total installed by me with the SE AC is around $1,200 before the throttle body work. They did not like the twin throat injector concept and had no plans to map it. Those prices on their throttle body package will work for me when they get it done for the SE stock cover and am on the list for one of those as well. The Daytona self adjusting thing may be to complicated for my taste right now and if the Zippers thing does not work out, I am only out a few hundred bucks and can go another direction. I will post the results when I get these things done in a few weeks and put it on a dyno for grins.
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Pappy trust me the Zippers thing will work out. You will have a cooler running bike with more H/P and TQ. I know you will be happy. Stay safe.
THE DAWG
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Dean welcome to the site.
I would take the factory 88ci motor to 95ci or even 103 if you like. You can buy a set of pistons(forged not cast) that are 3.875 plus 005. Have your cylinders bored and the piston to wall clearence set. If you go to 103 you will need a set of stroker pistons. You can also go to 107 Zippers has a package for that. Take your heads send them out and have them ported, light polishing, increase the valve size and install new H/P springs. Zippers can also do that. Find a good low end cam (lots of lift and a duration below 245 degrees) and purchase the Zippers ECM and throttle body with a good set of pipes.
Have this installed by a good shop or dealer and then get the bike dialed in on a dyno. You should be very happy with the performance. Stay safe.
THE DAWG.
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The only opinions that I have so far about tuning come from reading this board (THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO DC AND OTHER WHO HAVE BEEN KIND AND GENEROUS WITH THEIR TIME TO TAKE ME THROUGH THIS) and a couple of friends who have hopped up their 88s to 95s.
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Thanks guys for the information. I might not beable to ride the beast for long distances but at least I can go fast for a short time!!! Thanks again Pappy. If I ever get Florida way, I will let you buy me a cold one! Ride safe guys. Spook.
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Guys,
Make no mistake I "prefer" the True Duals for looks and style. But all the feedback I keep getting from the people who are "truly knowledgeable" in getting this motor to perform best, the overwhelming consensus is it will perform best with a 2 into 1 preformance pipe. Some like the Vance and Hines Pro-Pipe, some D&D'sFat Cat and most choose the Thunderheader..........(one wrench recommended Bassani headers with Thunderheader slip-ons).
I want the best of both worlds.....looks and performance! No sense in building up the motor to kill its potential with an inferior pipe. [smiley=dunce2.gif]
Zipper's likes the D&D Fat Cat 2 into 1 and it comes with a falsie for the true dual look. They are also currently testing with the Hooker's True duals (which were my first choice all along). Once they conclude their testing I will be making the final decision and sending them some cash.
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Perhaps it is true that an independent build will have better performance, but realize you can kiss your warrenty goodbye if you chip a cam, or have some such major failure, unless the "stealer" did an HD build. Just food for thought. Spook
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Spook,
In an earlier post I noted Zipper's has Authorized Harley Dealer's who sell and install their ware's. And are more than willing to share that info with everyone. So if you get an "HD Dealer" that knows what they are doing they will usually stand behind their work regardless.
This thread wants to maintain warranty coverage so staying to mild upgrades (ie, pipes, air cleaner kit, throttle body, ecm) shouldn't kill your warranty unless you use an "HD Stealer". [smiley=dunce2.gif]
I plan to hold onto my stock parts just in case. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
If you build a race motor all Harley or otherwise you are on your own anyway if there is a failure. [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]
Decisions....decisions.....to bad Harley just didn't build it to 110 horse & 120 torque straight from the factory. Now that would be a real "Screaming Eagle"....... [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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Point well taken. Figure this way, if they built that 110/120 motor, we would then want to take it to 140/160 and THAT would be expensive (as if getting the current 110/120 isn't)!
Wonder how I could make a Hyabusa motor look like a v-twin. Hmmmm. Spook.
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Spook,
How about we mount the Suzuki drive train in a stealth side-car......think of the synergies............wow! [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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OK! You first.......... Spook.
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Axe,
I don't know if you can out ride ol' Hub, but you may be surprised how the new numbers shake out in a Dyno Drag......... [smiley=shocked2.gif]
That 107 package is the bomb! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Axe,
I don't know if you can out ride ol' Hub, but you may be surprised how the new numbers shake out in a Dyno Drag......... [smiley=shocked2.gif]
That 107 package is the bomb! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
The thing you have to remember is Zippers builds reliable horsepower. So the 107 you get runs good but you could get more out of it if you wanted. It wouldn't be cheap but can be done.
As a famous person on this site has said A MAN CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH HORSEPOWER! I have to agree! Stay safe.
THE DAWG
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Sorry I took so long to get back with a reply. After owning a v-rod for 637 miles, I can only say there is NO reason for HD to have a v-rod, when a bike one third the price will run circles around it. Sigh. Spook.
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Ok, I admit I am crazy but after reading more on this board by Spook and others and talking to DC last night and Zippers today, I went ahead with the following changes. I ordered the throttle body, manifold, AC, from Zippers and changed my order for pipes from the Rineharts to the D&D fat cat system with Chris @ Kustomemporium who was very helpful and gives 20% discount on HD stuff. They are sending me a remap disc for the ECM that I have already on the way set up for the Rineharts. I feel silly ordering a ghost pipe at this time but if I think it looks to funny I will get that done later. I will get an EVO cover plate for the AC from HD that suits my eye. What started as a thread on warranty issues has come off track because I really don't expect that to be a problem with this set-up that does not involve mods to the engine internals and it is a fight worth having if necc later. Thanks again for all the advice and I hope this all works out when it gets here. I am going up to SC to get the Banana next week and will stop by Myrtle on the 14 to say hi to DC and buy him a cold one for his troubles. Be safe [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
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Pappy2,
Congratulations! And keep us posted...........please. I am about to order the same exact Zipper's package. (Still fussing over the true dual/2 into 1 options)
My bike is due in next Tuesday or Wednesday. What was the total tab? I was quoted $1909 from Zipper's for the entire package includingthe D&D 2 into 1 pipe.
How did DC let you get away from the Thunderheader? I stopped by Roeder HD today in Sandusky, Ohio. I was there right about quitting time so I took a look at what the their Tech's had on their own bikes for pipes...........and right down the line (6-8 bikes) they were running Thunderheader's. Things that make me go hmmm.
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I think we should all put our original 103's on the garage shelf, do a group buy on the Jim's 120, have T-man do the heads and end up with 140+ RWH. Enough of this farting around a piece at a time! What's 8K plus $1200 for the head work to this crowd. Mear coffee money!? Oh yeah, might have to change to gear driven cams, then there is that turbo/n02 setup that we could hang on there..... Now where is that pimple-faced kid with the 600 Honda? Just a thought. Spook.
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Elvis,
Unfortunately I'll have to be the first then to pop the "Syn3 in all three holes" universally positive vote.
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Don't mean to interupt, but which Redline did you use in the Tranny?
Mike
It's the heavyweight shockproof Mike. Works good and looks pretty too [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Pappy2 and DC,
Any dyno numbers yet on your new Zipper's setup's?
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I think we should all put our original 103's on the garage shelf, do a group buy on the Jim's 120, have T-man do the heads and end up with 140+ RWH.
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How true. Sold my Hyabusa last summer. Great ride for some one young and with a good back. Your point is well taken. Spook.
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Hayabusa you say!
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Pappy2 and DC,
Any dyno numbers yet on your new Zipper's setup's?
If the weather is clear here in the Metropolitian DC area on Thursday we will have some numbers. It's the only day I can get the bike down there and he might even dial in the ECM from the Zippers baseline. I'm not to sure as of yet I told him I just wanted a baseline before I go into the motor and did not want to spend time or money trying to squeeze the best numbers out of this setup.
BE SAFE
THE DAWG
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I can't wait to see how this looks. Thanks in advance for the info. JP [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]