www.CVOHARLEY.com
CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: TallyClassic on April 04, 2011, 08:51:36 AM
-
Obviously I'm going to talk to my builder today, but I figured I'd get some ideas here.....
Had a cam and the updated plate and oil pump installed in an '05 SEEG 103". Also had to have the inner primary removed to fix a leaky seal on the shifter shaft.
Vibration comes on at 2600-2800 and sounds something like the whirrrr of a B motor. Anything below that, everything feels great. Up through 3,000 and building to 4000 it's a full-on vibration. Nothing knocking or clanking. More like something spinning fast and is out of round or out of balance. Definately engine rpm related. The noise of the vibration doesn't seem like it's coming from the cam chest, more like the left front corner of the engine.
I'd think a Compensator Nut would clank and get progressively worse. I just now thought of that maybe it's the extra lift of the cam? Its a RedShift 575 and supposed to be 'bolt-in'. I hate to think that something is hitting.....the whole thing would have to be torn back down.
The best way to explain the sound/vibration is like a high speed motor or maybe a box/window fan. If a blade was out of balance, the faster it went it would be vibrating like crazy. Another explaination someone might be able to relate to is the variable belt drive clutches on snowmobiles. If one is worn or out of balance on the motor shaft, the faster it goes it sets up a howl and vibration all through the machine.
Either way the bike needs to go back. Also, I don't believe they road tested the bike before delivery.
-
Obviously I'm going to talk to my builder today, but I figured I'd get some ideas here.....
Had a cam and the updated plate and oil pump installed in an '05 SEEG 103". Also had to have the inner primary removed to fix a leaky seal on the shifter shaft.
Vibration comes on at 2600-2800 and sounds something like the whirrrr of a B motor. Anything below that, everything feels great. Up through 3,000 and building to 4000 it's a full-on vibration. Nothing knocking or clanking. More like something spinning fast and is out of round or out of balance. Definately engine rpm related. The noise of the vibration doesn't seem like it's coming from the cam chest, more like the left front corner of the engine.
I'd think a Compensator Nut would clank and get progressively worse. I just now thought of that maybe it's the extra lift of the cam? Its a RedShift 575 and supposed to be 'bolt-in'. I hate to think that something is hitting.....the whole thing would have to be torn back down.
The best way to explain the sound/vibration is like a high speed motor or maybe a box/window fan. If a blade was out of balance, the faster it went it would be vibrating like crazy. Another explaination someone might be able to relate to is the variable belt drive clutches on snowmobiles. If one is worn or out of balance on the motor shaft, the faster it goes it sets up a howl and vibration all through the machine.
Either way the bike needs to go back. Also, I don't believe they road tested the bike before delivery.
The most likely culprit in my mind would be something in the primary. In order to replace that shift shaft seal (great design H-D), they had to remove the entire primary. Going back together, they could have gotten the chain alignment out of whack, got the tension way too tight or loose, etc.
Jerry
-
Thanks for responding Jerry, I was hoping you would respond. Your knowledge is greatly respected and appreciated here.
I had thought of that, but didn't hear any of the slapping around from a loose chain. Doesn't really feel 'bound-up' from the chain being too tight either. I'd thought of something with the clutch not being seated right, but the vibration doesnt seems to be coming from behind my left leg. It's more in front of my feet, mostly above the left foot.
To give more info, the bike idles perfectly. Besides being some lifter/rockerbox noises. Dealer says those will quiet down after 500 miles? (Doesnt sound right). I rode it 200 miles yesterday. Taking off from a standing start or normal 2200 to 2600rpm shifts all seem normal.
Dealer wants bike back tomorrow. Tonite I'll take a peek behind the primary inspection plate.
Thanks again.
-
Tally,
Did they happen to do a crank run out for you before the put in new cams :nixweiss:
-
Tally,
Did they happen to do a crank run out for you before the put in new cams :nixweiss:
And, did you install gear drive cams??
-
Thse were not gear drives, I didn't want to have to worry about the runout. I did ask about the runout and for him to check, but forgot about it when I picked the bike up.
Here's something I picked up from another thread...... The builder insisted on solid pushrods, everyone has always said adjustables have to be used. Mostly because you dont have to touch the rockers. Well, mine were coming off to replace gaskets that were weeping, so it made it easy to pull the rods out the top.
Now I've learned that the Redshift 575 cam has a smaller base circle? Thus, a standard lenght rod would be wrong? Is the builder relying on the hydraulic lifter to take up the slack?? He said they adjusted up fine...... liar?
-
Thse were not gear drives, I didn't want to have to worry about the runout. I did ask about the runout and for him to check, but forgot about it when I picked the bike up.
Here's something I picked up from another thread...... The builder insisted on solid pushrods, everyone has always said adjustables have to be used. Mostly because you dont have to touch the rockers. Well, mine were coming off to replace gaskets that were weeping, so it made it easy to pull the rods out the top.
Now I've learned that the Redshift 575 cam has a smaller base circle? Thus, a standard lenght rod would be wrong? Is the builder relying on the hydraulic lifter to take up the slack?? He said they adjusted up fine...... liar?
I vaguely remember mic'ing a 575 Zippers cam to compare against the stock cams on a 103 when I had a set in hand several years ago. Recollection was that the base circle was the same. But....
Ask yourself this: How would the installer know they "adjusted up fine" when there is no adjustment in what he chose to reassemble?
-
Thse were not gear drives, I didn't want to have to worry about the runout. I did ask about the runout and for him to check, but forgot about it when I picked the bike up.
Here's something I picked up from another thread...... The builder insisted on solid pushrods, everyone has always said adjustables have to be used. Mostly because you dont have to touch the rockers. Well, mine were coming off to replace gaskets that were weeping, so it made it easy to pull the rods out the top.
Now I've learned that the Redshift 575 cam has a smaller base circle? Thus, a standard lenght rod would be wrong? Is the builder relying on the hydraulic lifter to take up the slack?? He said they adjusted up fine...... liar?
Tally no disrespect meant here but What are you talking about, just because you use chain drive doesn't mean you don't already, can't or won't have crank problems. Many of the guys here on the site have had crank issues with stock motors that use chains similiar with guys that have 96 motors.
You really need to know whether you have a crank issue.
-
UBal & 2lane...... none taken, the mechanic that did the work is off today so I cannot get that question answered, but it is one that I wanted to know from the start of the project.
I really hope I find a tight chain tonite....
-
Just a shot in the dark, but my guess is they adjusted the primary chain to tight. When they installed my SE compensator they adjusted the primary to tight and I had "whirring noise" when it got warmed up. They talked me into riding it a 100miles and if it didn't go away they would re-adjust it. I rode it 50 miles and took it back. Told them to fix it.
-
Guppy did you have a vibration or just the noise?
-
Mostly just noise.
Still betting that is the problem.
If it were a crank run-out problem, the vibration should have been there before the cam swap. I can't see how changing the cams would suddenly expose a crank run-out problem that was unnoticed before. But at this point your guess is as good as mine.
Mostly subscribing to here the end results.
-
Just a shot in the dark, but my guess is they adjusted the primary chain to tight. When they installed my SE compensator they adjusted the primary to tight and I had "whirring noise" when it got warmed up. They talked me into riding it a 100miles and if it didn't go away they would re-adjust it. I rode it 50 miles and took it back. Told them to fix it.
I'm gonna go with Gubby on this and say something with your primary side.. But got a question to further back up this theory.. did they have primary side apart??? :nixweiss:
-
Just got back from the dealer.....primary chain is fine, has the right amount of play in it.
Two of their experienced engine guys took the bike for a ride. Both came up with the same diagnosis. One thing that I had done while it was apart was to replace the front rubber mount. Also, Zippers doesn't have a map for a stock engine, only with a Zippers 50mm TB. So the engine is going to be pretty rich. They feel that combo of stiff mount, rich, big cam are all contributing to something I'm not used to. They both liked the power the cam made and it isn't nearly as noisy as they thought it would be. The 103" motor jumps around a bit anyway, the cam may be enhancing it.
I feel better that nothing is drastically wrong. The engine guy did warn me beforehand that putting in a new mount could give me more vibration, since the rubber is stiff when new. It 'could' soften up after a while. I noticed that the vibration in the fairing and bars is less while at idle than it was. I asked whether the center bolt could be loosened a few lbs. He suggested trying loosening all 3 bolts on the rubber mount and run the engine. Theory is if the engine is binding on the new mount, running the engine when loose helps center the mount. He hasn't seen this to be very effective when he's tried it.
Next thing is to get the bike tuned. Since it is surely rich, probably making it rougher than I think it is. And maybe the dyno guy could play with some timing in that 4000 rpm range. I'm going to use the mobile dyno guy that owns Cycle Solutions. He'll be in PanamaCityBeach April 28.
Thanks for everyones help.
-
if that new stiff mount drives you crazy i have a couple of the orig stock mounts. wear faster but no bad vibes :bananarock:
-
Make sure the rubber was not installed upside down on the mount, and is torqued correctly
Don't know which mount they installed :nixweiss:
-
I'd remembered that HD was on it's 3rd attempt at making a better rubber mount. I didn't know their solution was to make it stiffer, no wonder the tech warned me that with the new mount I might get more vibration!! Wasn't there an alternative mount everyone raved about for a while? I didn't stay up with it 'cause it seemed everyone thought the HD updated one was just as good......hmmmmm.
I do agree that the bike needs to be tuned. I don't think I'll do the AutoTune since this is my last change to the bike, and the personal touch on the dyno might be better. I'm going to ask that it be leaned in the cruising ranges for mileage.
-
Wasn't there an alternative mount everyone raved about for a while? I didn't stay up with it 'cause it seemed everyone thought the HD updated one was just as good......hmmmmm.
Tally, the front mount is in it's D revision now. So, including the original, that's five versions of the mount. It's a -79 part number. And it didn't get a single revision until after the 103s came out. Then it got A and B in quick succession. If I remember right that first A revision was very very hard.
Mount has been tweaked more since. I've actually had good luck with the D version. The "alternative" you might be thinking of is the Velva mount. Another one that has been out there for a long time. They were always an improvement over the stock mounts. And a good improvement at that. The 107 in my 05 broke two of them though with each serving the bike less than a year. The D version of the Harley mount has been in a couple years now. It's not bad at all for vibration and (knock on wood) has held up well so far in my bike.