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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: FlaHeatWave on January 22, 2014, 12:26:08 AM
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After a lot of help from the CVO Forum and some of the Indies here, we decided to go this route for a "Sport Touring" '09 SERG with dependability / longevity as the primary focus;
(If S&S made a 124 in Granite, I'd already have one!)
HD Cases, Line Honed, Timken, Hefty Lefty
HD High Tensile Cylinder Studs
S&S Crank w/ non-tapered rods
Wiseco / RP 4.125 Forged Flat-top Pistons
Revolution Performance Nicasil Cylinders
Feuling Oil Pump
Feuling Cam Plate w/ Zippers Dual Piston Hydraulic Tensioners
S&S Premium Lifters
T-Man 625 Cams
SE Adjustable Pushrods
T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads, 10.4-1 c/r
Cometic .030 Head Gaskets
SE Forged Rocker Arm Supports
S&S Roller Rockers
SE 58mm Throttle Body (Port Matched) 5.3 Injectors
V&H PowerDuals, Roland Sands Design Tracker Slip-ons
Power Commander V / Autotune
Will go to the latest style compensator or sprocket when this (new)one wears out
SE High Performance Clutch Spring (looking for suggestions if the spring doesn't hold it ?)
Baker DD7 (Oasis Cycles has unbeatable pricing on Baker Products :bananarock:)
Cases / Cylinders on the way to Oasis Cycle in Brandon, MS for Machining / Bearings
Heads / Throttle Body on the way to T-Man Performance
What am I forgetting????
Any suggestions / comments are appreciated
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looks good
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I see money being spent on a few things that is going to offer no real upside for your build,.. HD studs, Axtell bypass , etc ,... but over all solid looking build should run well . Never messed with those slip ons I hope your money invested in the build does not get wasted due to another poor muffler. That would be a shame.. Look forward to see the final product.
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I'd put a real tuner on it----not a fan of PCV on a build like yours.
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I see money being spent on a few things that is going to offer no real upside for your build,.. HD studs, Axtell bypass , etc ,... but over all solid looking build should run well . Never messed with those slip ons I hope your money invested in the build does not get wasted due to another poor muffler. That would be a shame.. Look forward to see the final product.
Nobody has ever messed with the RSD Slip ons because they are so expensive (over $ 725. for friggin' mufflers?) They were on the bike when I got it, otherwise I wouldn't have spent that kind of dough on mufflers that nobody has ever heard of. If the RSDs don't tune out properly, I will go with the stock CVO cans / FullSac Baffles, or another set of mufflers that you guys recommend for this build.
The HD studs were suggested to me by my Dealer that is going to stand behind the bike (they're only about $30. w/ my discount), The Axtell Bypass, was my idea (Fueling puts them in their high$$ camplate) and was one of those "while we're at it" type deals... edit; going with the Feuling Cam Plate & Oil Pump.
Please don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to justify or be contrary, (I remember, I asked for the input.) I tell about the people / vendors here; " these guys are building (motors) for people all over the planet, they are on the cutting edge, they know what works, and what doesn't and are kind enough to take the time to share"... To me, it don't get any better than that....
I feel very fortunate to be a member of the CVO forum, as it is a GREAT resource for me, and the people that I have met through this site have been GREAT also!!!
Sincere Thanks,
Ed
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Interested to see how this one turns out. Good luck and keep us up to date. Sure the direction I am thinking too with maybe less cam.
David
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I'd put a real tuner on it----not a fan of PCV on a build like yours.
If it doesn't work out for me, I'll be giving Doc a call...
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We have similar CVO 113 build plans. Currently I have a 2011 CVO RGU with Fullsac X-pipe and 2" cores and TTS Mastertune, which is a nice set-up.
Here is my build components:
Kury TC-24D Cams
S&S Premium Lifters
SE billet cam plate w/ Axtell Oil Bypass and Red Shift Chain Tensioners, B-168 Bearings
S&S Quickie Adjustable push rods
Goodson/AV&V Beehive Spring Set (.600)
V&H Power Dual Exhaust
Kury Mellow Crusher Mufflers
Revolution Performance 113 Bolt-on kit with Wiseco Piston Kit (10.5:1 Ratio/ 4.060 Bore)
SE 58MM TB with SE Pro High Flow Injector Kit
Cometic .030 head gaskets
Energy One Performance Clutch (installed)
Aim 480 Spring with ClutchWiz (installed)
2014 SE Compensator (installed)
Hayden Primary Chain Tensioner (installed)
Jagg Oil Cooler (installed)
Jim's Forceflow (installed)
WFOLarry is doing my headwork including 2.120 intake valves and AV&V Bronze Guides and also working the SE 58MM TB. Flow will be 315+. I got the SE billet cam because I have the RSD Clarity cam (and derby) covers. I am thinking about adding the S&S cylinder studs and the Baker 31T-07 Final Drive Pulley (no need to change the belt). The Kury Crusher/V&H Power Duals with the Kury TC-24D cam have generated strong performance based on Dynos I have seen. GMR makes a similar cam (Genesis 577) with strong performance as well.
We will both see how everything comes together.
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We have similar CVO 113 build plans. Currently I have a 2011 CVO RGU with Fullsac X-pipe and 2" cores and TTS Mastertune, which is a nice set-up.
Here is my build components:
Kury TC-24D Cams
S&S Premium Lifters
SE billet cam plate w/ Axtell Oil Bypass and Red Shift Chain Tensioners, B-168 Bearings
S&S Quickie Adjustable push rods
Goodson/AV&V Beehive Spring Set (.600)
V&H Power Dual Exhaust
Kury Mellow Crusher Mufflers
Revolution Performance 113 Bolt-on kit with Wiseco Piston Kit (10.5:1 Ratio/ 4.060 Bore)
SE 58MM TB with SE Pro High Flow Injector Kit
Cometic .030 head gaskets
Energy One Performance Clutch (installed)
Aim 480 Spring with ClutchWiz (installed)
2014 SE Compensator (installed)
Hayden Primary Chain Tensioner (installed)
Jagg Oil Cooler (installed)
Jim's Forceflow (installed)
WFOLarry is doing my headwork including 2.120 intake valves and AV&V Bronze Guides and also working the SE 58MM TB. Flow will be 315+. I got the SE billet cam because I have the RSD Clarity cam (and derby) covers. I am thinking about adding the S&S cylinder studs and the Baker 31T-07 Final Drive Pulley (no need to change the belt). The Kury Crusher/V&H Power Duals with the Kury TC-24D cam have generated strong performance based on Dynos I have seen. GMR makes a similar cam (Genesis 577) with strong performance as well.
We will both see how everything comes together.
Very similar builds, we have both picked out a lot of the same components, (my pistons are coming from Revolution as well) the Kury 24s were on my radar, and seem to have similar characteristics to the 625s, having T-Man do the heads is what swayed me to the 625s.
I didn't know that the Clutch Wiz would work with a hydraulic clutch?
The RSD Clairity covers are pimp!
Sometimes I wish that I would have gotten the '11 Ultra like yours, instead of the '09. I guess that I wanted the cartoon colors of the '09...
Hope we cross paths sometime!
Good Luck!
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Agree with Steve on the studs
Better than half the case repairs ive done including a couple Jims engines had the high tens studs installed.....I do not think they really stretch like they are supposed to ....id just snag a set of replacement studs
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Ed, got a question on the pistons and might be a stupid one. The piston set that Rev sells are a flat top and I like that idea over the Suburban Speed 10.5 pistons. This is where the stupid part might come in.... how compatible are the Revolution pistons, that I am guessing are for their sprayed liners, with the cast liner of the Harley cyls or is it not a problem?
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Ed, got a question on the pistons and might be a stupid one. The piston set that Rev sells are a flat top and I like that idea over the Suburban Speed 10.5 pistons. This is where the stupid part might come in.... how compatible are the Revolution pistons, that I am guessing are for their sprayed liners, with the cast liner of the Harley cyls or is it not a problem?
Flat-tops are the way to go.
'Got the boys from Oasis Cycle to source the pistons (from Revolution), as Oasis is doing all the machine work (except for T-Man's CNC headwork).
Either Wiseco or CP makes them. (Wiseco also makes some of the SE pistons).
Long story short, 'not exactly sure :nixweiss:
'Will have the part number soon, and will make sure that I get it to you.
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Agree with Steve on the studs
Better than half the case repairs ive done including a couple Jims engines had the high tens studs installed.....I do not think they really stretch like they are supposed to ....id just snag a set of replacement studs
It's interesting to me that the GM at my Dealer mentioned yesterday about properly installing the HT studs w/ red Loctite, and setting the depth as they have no "shoulders".
What caused the case repairs that you are referring to?
Is there any certain amount of times that head studs can be re-torqued (like a '1' -use bolt) ???
On your recommendation, I will get some replacement studs.
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:biggthumpup: Please keep us up on this build. For those of us that have the granite motors this sure sounds like the most cost effective way for us to gain a few cubes and still keep our bikes looking like they are supposed to. I keep thinking some day Mother Harley will remember us and release a granite 120. Till then this sounds like the ticket.
David
I will say I have made a few calls to S&S about building a 116 off our 4.0 bore jugs but all they do is laugh as soon as you mention a 110
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:biggthumpup: Please keep us up on this build. For those of us that have the granite motors this sure sounds like the most cost effective way for us to gain a few cubes and still keep our bikes looking like they are supposed to. I keep thinking some day Mother Harley will remember us and release a granite 120. Till then this sounds like the ticket.
David
I will say I have made a few calls to S&S about building a 116 off our 4.0 bore jugs but all they do is laugh as soon as you mention a 110
Hell, I was ready to offer S&S my first born for a Granite 124 :nixweiss:
I was happy with the SE Stage III Pro Kit, until ESP denied a claim. So I got together with my Dealer, Heritage Cycles Harley Davidson in Ft. Walton Beach that I have a Great relationship over 12 years and he is giving me full credit on any parts that I want to upgrade, a discount on the upgrade parts, covering the labor and standing behind the motor.
The boys at Oasis were suggesting the Revolution 117 cylinders (granite). Oasis assured me that they had built a bunch of Revolution (Nikasil) motors and haven't had any problems, but mainly because of my deal with my Dealer, I decided to go this route.
'Have ridden the S&S 117 and it is a torque monster, but I should be able to get a ticket just about anywhere I need to get one, with this 113 :bananarock:
Oasis built an open check book plus 113 / DD7 for my good friend's Skunk last year, and it is a rocket (almost 40k miles already), but since he has a black motor, he has a S&S 124 on the shelf (no kidding).
S&S told me that even though they do not produce the 113 kit, there were no mechanical reasons (over heating, stability, harmonics etc...) why they did not pursue this size motor.
The S&S crank assy. looks to me, to be a very cost effective alternative to Darkhorse / Silvermoon. Time will tell...
The 120Rs are ok if you: check the cases, Timken, build the crank, install good rods, lifters, work the heads, cams, all the stuff that a 110 needs to be a bulletproof performer :nervous:
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It's interesting to me that the GM at my Dealer mentioned yesterday about properly installing the HT studs w/ red Loctite, and setting the depth as they have no "shoulders".
What caused the case repairs that you are referring to?
Is there any certain amount of times that head studs can be re-torqued (like a '1' -use bolt) ???
On your recommendation, I will get some replacement studs.
I cannot tell you what the actual cause is,over torque/bad case material/???
What I can tell you is that the studs generally just rip right out ,I have welded them up and fixed them but generally I use either a timesert or Bigsert and have never had one fail.
The one indy that I do heads for uses the Colony studs in his rebuilds and says he likes the way they torque up better than the HD ones
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Oasis built an open check book plus 113 / DD7 for my good friend's Skunk last year, and it is a rocket (almost 40k miles already), but since he has a black motor, he has a S&S 124 on the shelf (no kidding).
Was that motor built with the factory cyl's or was it built off the Revolution platform.
The 117 would actually be my choice of builds and probably have more fear of the base gasket on the o-ring 110 case than I do the Nikasil cyl's.
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If you are going with a nice ( zero run out ) crank, why dont you go with the gear driven cams? Get rid of those chains and tensioners and the wear and tear of that hole little contraption in there.
And just out of curiosity (I know it's a rude question, and you can tell me to jump in the lake if you want ) what is this costing you? I did pretty much the same build and it ran me around $6000.00 That is what it costs to get rid of that valve train noise LOL.
After a lot of help from the CVO Forum and some of the Indies here, we decided to go this route for a "Sport Touring" '09 SERG with dependability / longevity as the primary focus;
(If S&S made a 124 in Granite, I'd already have one!)
HD Cases, Line Honed, Timken, Hefty Lefty
HD High Tensile Cylinder Studs
S&S Crank w/ non-tapered rods
Wiseco / SE 4.060 Forged Flat-top Pistons
HD Cylinders bored +.060 to Pistons
HD new style Oil Pump
HD cam plate w/ Zippers Dual Piston Hydraulic Tensioners, Axtell Oil Bypass Valve
S&S Premium Lifters
T-Man 625 Cams
SE Adjustable Pushrods
T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads, 10.4-1 c/r (going to use the head gaskets that T.R. tells us to use)
SE Forged Rocker Arm Supports
S&S Roller Rockers
SE 58mm Throttle Body (Port Matched) 5.3 Injectors
V&H PowerDuals, Roland Sands Design Tracker Slip-ons
Power Commander V / Autotune
Will go to the latest style compensator or sprocket when this (new)one wears out
SE High Performance Clutch Spring (looking for suggestions if the spring doesn't hold it ?)
Baker DD7 (Oasis Cycles has unbeatable pricing on Baker Products :bananarock:)
Cases / Cylinders on the way to Oasis Cycle in Brandon, MS for Machining / Bearings
Heads / Throttle Body on the way to T-Man Performance
What am I forgetting????
Any suggestions / comments are appreciated
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Factory studs are certainly NOT a weak link. More harm is done by removing, and then re-installing new ones. You're dealing with a CAST aluminum case, and threads. But as usual "tinkeritis" will win every time. ::)
John
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And I would take that advise
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If you are going with a nice ( zero run out ) crank, why dont you go with the gear driven cams? Get rid of those chains and tensioners and the wear and tear of that hole little contraption in there.
And just out of curiosity (I know it's a rude question, and you can tell me to jump in the lake if you want ) what is this costing you? I did pretty much the same build and it ran me around $6000.00 That is what it costs to get rid of that valve train noise LOL.
'Was really considering the gear drives, even asked about them here. http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=91310.0
Since we are working the cases and going with the S&S Crank, I believe the gear drives are a viable option.
(here's where the 'but' comes in lol) After speaking with Builders on both sides of The Mississippi, the consensus seems to be that the gear drives are ok, BUT if you have any kind of failure, it is prone to be catastrophic, whereas the chains might be a little more forgiving in that respect...
The available selection of cams was a factor also.
The Red Shift Dual Piston Tensioners definitely seem to be a better mouse trap.
A good friend of mine had 25k mi. on them when he put the Hurricane Heads on his 113 / DD7 Skunk, and was impressed with the way that everything looked.
All that being said, I hope that I never kick myself in the ass for not going S&S 585 Gear Drive EZ starts :-\
(you Canuks are too polite anyway ;D lol)
When you figure all the allowances on existing parts, discounts, "free" labor, and cashing in the remainder of the ESP, I will be in right at $2k, including the DD7! :bananarock: :bananarock: :bananarock:
'Might have to drop some more $$ if the SE Heavy Duty Clutch Spring doesn't hold :nervous:
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Not to wish that you spend more money, but hope that the torque comes in so hard that the SE clutch doesn't hold..... :2vrolijk_21:
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It's interesting to me that the GM at my Dealer mentioned yesterday about properly installing the HT studs w/ red Loctite, and setting the depth as they have no "shoulders".
What caused the case repairs that you are referring to?
Is there any certain amount of times that head studs can be re-torqued (like a '1' -use bolt) ???
On your recommendation, I will get some replacement studs.
That's a very interesting point to bring up. I don't know about this particular application but I have seen instances where studs required a length measurement prior to torquing and after torquing to determine if they were still considered serviceable for reuse. Once "stretched" past a predetermined amount, they would require replacement. Once again, this is probably not the case on this engine but an interesting point anyway.
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Of all the engines we have done even in boosted applications ( 15 PSI) never have had a stock stud fail. Now I have had issue with the non shouldered studs and I feel that they can create more issues than they will ever correct. This is a not a SBC engine you are dealing with soft cast case's. If a stock stud can handle 15 PSI of boost I feel that the stock unit will handle just about anything the avg guy can throw at it. :2vrolijk_21:
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Steve
What is your take on the Zippers tensioners?
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Not to wish that you spend more money, but hope that the torque comes in so hard that the SE clutch doesn't hold..... :2vrolijk_21:
That would make me cry... :bananarock: :bananarock:
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Re: Studs,
It might surprise many that S&S uses STOCK studs in many of their engines.
Likewise, I've never had a stud failure in boosted engines pulling as much as 28 lbs. of boost (Detonated a piston), when the rear wheel spun on the drum. >:(
John
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Re: Studs,
It might surprise many that S&S uses STOCK studs in many of their engines.
Likewise, I've never had a stud failure in boosted engines pulling as much as 28 lbs. of boost (Detonated a piston), when the rear wheel spun on the drum. >:(
John
My primary concern is the rear head gasket..
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My primary concern is the rear head gasket..
Why ? What is that based on ?
Oil the head bolts, & underneath the head of the bolts, use Cometic torque values, and everything is flat, you should have no issues.
John
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Why ? What is that based on ?
Oil the head bolts, & underneath the head of the bolts, use Cometic torque values, and everything is flat, you should have no issues.
John
John,
'Just thought that, if I was to blow a head gasket, it would be the rear one...
Question; Does the person doing the headwork and setting the compression ratio select the head gasket, or do I select it and tell them???
'Going w/ Cometic, what thickness do you think would be suitable for this build?
10.4 w/ worked CVO heads
'Just out of curiosity; In the boosted applications, do y'all o-ring the heads or anything, or just go with the standard setup?
Thanks,
Ed
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Ed,
Keep a positive attitude.
Assembled properly, etc. you should have NO head gasket problems....front or rear.
If your head guy picks a certain head gasket, I would go with it. If not it certainly pays to ask.
The person who modifies your parts should let you know what thickness head gasket you need to use, based on your input of what you want for final compression. Then YOU need to check the figures.
We o-ring the cylinders, and heads on Jap race motors when using power adders. Harleys, I haven't done so, because we USUALLY don't run a lot of boost, or a big load of nitrous.
John
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TR should have some good answers for you about head gasket size. thats why i went with one of his package deals, plus to many hands on it & it gets to crazy :-X for my old brain
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Ed,
Keep a positive attitude.
John
We all know Murphy's Law...
Ed's Law; Murphy was a friggin' Optimist :nervous: LOL!
The glass is always half full with me!
I don't know if the new cases come with the studs already installed?
If the cases don't come with the studs installed, I'm sure that my Tech took the High Tensile Studs (torqued 1 time) from the damaged cases and properly installed them in the new cases.
From what I read here, it's best to leave whatever studs are in the new cases at this point? It seems that the benefits (if any) of the HT studs are outweighed by the risk of damaging the cases or improper installation?
Before the input from this thread, I asked Oasis Cycles (working the cases and cylinders ~ we are not boring the cases for o/s jugs) if they wanted me to remove the studs, and Mark said to just leave them in. Later I asked Oasis to also mock up and check / set the deck height and get T.R. all the info that he needs for his headwork.
John, that picture of you is AWESOME!!! :2vrolijk_21: A hellava launch, what a ride... I bet launching that Monster is a feeling like no other... :pepper:
What are the #s?
Thanks again!
Ed
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TR should have some good answers for you about head gasket size. thats why i went with one of his package deals, plus to many hands on it & it gets to crazy :-X for my old brain
fastfreddy, I agree with you 110%! That is definitely the way to go! and I'm sure that the Builders prefer it that way also. (less finger pointing if/when there are issues), and you know the old saying about too many cooks spoiling the pot...
T.R. got the heads yesterday, the SE 58mm TB is shipping to him 1/27, I am going to wait until he receives the TB before I take up any more of his time...
'Just going to ask him to source the Cometics, give me the p/n(for my parts list) and send the gaskets back with the heads.
The only reason that I went this route, was my deal with my Dealer, and the resources available to me.
I have put a lot of pressure on myself (my Dad was a Sr. Master Chief Machinist Mate, I was a Mechanic for almost 20 yrs) to spec out the proper components, get everybody on the same page, and minimize issues during final assembly.
Don't get me wrong, it's freezing (had sleet yesterday) here in NW Florida, so the riding is minimal, and I'm having a blast, learning tons with this build!!!
With the Professionalism, Craftsmanship, and Cutting Edge Knowledge,(and oh yea, patience w/me :nixweiss:) of Oasis Cycles, T-Man Performance, and (yes) My Dealer, Heritage Cycles Harley-Davidson of Ft. Walton Beach, FL, I expect little, if any, issues :coolblue:
Ed
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I have a spare set of cyl's sitting on top of my tool box waiting to see the outcome! Thinking your going to be very happy with the build
David
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Ed,
It sounds like you're on the right track.
The picture is my daughter-in- law. ADRL's fastest woman on 2 wheels, and first women world champion in that sanction. She has run a best of 4.02 @ 180.21.
John
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The picture is my daughter-in- law. ADRL's fastest woman on 2 wheels, and first women world champion in that sanction. She has run a best of 4.02 @ 180.21.
John
At this point I'm just sweatin' the small (clearance) stuff on the heads / cylinders. Hopefully, we can all stay on the same page...
Sounds like a fun family.
Congrats to all on the Racing Program!
'Would love to see y'all run, if you're still doin' it...
World Class #s!!!
Ed
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Still at it.
John
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Still at it.
John
What circuit / tracks do y'all run?
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Oasis built an open check book plus 113 / DD7 for my good friend's Skunk last year, and it is a rocket (almost 40k miles already), but since he has a black motor, he has a S&S 124 on the shelf (no kidding).
Was that motor built with the factory cyl's or was it built off the Revolution platform.
The 117 would actually be my choice of builds and probably have more fear of the base gasket on the o-ring 110 case than I do the Nikasil cyl's.
David,
Factory Cylinders ~ Everybody including S&S told me that there were no mechanical reasons, that boring the stock cylinders .060 was fine. And the cases don't require boring.
The Boys at Oasis tell me that they haven't seen any issues (sealing or otherwise) with the Revolution stuff
'Gave the Revolution 117 a good bit of consideration, cost was a factor (definitely need a clutch then :pepper:,) My Dealer was also a factor (I promised him that I would be conservative if he would stand behind it :nervous:), have a stock looking motor, and I was satisfied with the performance of the Stage III in the '09.(The '01 Switchblade traps around 120 :bananarock:) All things considered, I figured that this build would be understressed and still be fun to ride.
My deal with this build was a little bit different, if I was to go to one source (Builder), that does a good many 117 'kits' then I would have given the 117 a lot more consideration.
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Save a good parts list for me....lol. I may need some in the future.
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Save a good parts list for me....lol. I may need some in the future.
Already working on it :coolblue:
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Already working on it :coolblue:
:2vrolijk_21:
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:2vrolijk_21:
Will have two of the 113 builds done here soon, you need to take a road trip. we can go for a spin :vrolijk27:
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Talked with a guy the other day that you we starting or maybe just finishing up
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Will have two of the 113 builds done here soon, you need to take a road trip. we can go for a spin :vrolijk27:
I'm all in as soon as we get up and running and this weather starts cooperating.
Maybe you have some place in Texas where we can stretch our legs ? :coolblue:
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Evening Update;
DD7 installed
Cases are finished
Cylinders bored and ready for mock-up / deck height validation
TR called for info required for headwork
Life is Good :2vrolijk_21:
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Ed, got my first ride this afternoon with the DD7 installed and you will love it!
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Ed, got my first ride this afternoon with the DD7 installed and you will love it!
'Rode the 7 before, Engineering of the Highest Caliber :2vrolijk_21:
That lower 1st is really nice, especially when loaded...
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Ed, just wondering what kind of progress you have made? Been to cold here to do anything but hide under the covers :sauer055:
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Ed, just wondering what kind of progress you have made? Been to cold here to do anything but hide under the covers :sauer055:
David, (since my last "evening update")
We hit a little snag as the oil control rings were bent when the box was opened :nixweiss: The boys at Oasis are getting some replacements, and should ship the cases, cylinders, pistons, Fueling cam plate / oil pump, Red Shift tensioners, and T-Man 625s, to Heritage Cycles HD this coming week.
Hopefully, Heritage Cycles can install the S&S Crank and get the bottom end together and we will be waiting on the T-Man heads / SE 58mm ported TB.
T-Man contacted me today with an estimated ship date of 3/7 aarrrggghhhh!
(All the good head porters have about the same lead time though)
Last week we sent the HK to Iron Cross Audio to have their new Bluetooth receiver installed.
The weather has been crap here, one day 65*, the next day 30* and back again, mixed with icy rain and sleet. 'Hope to get down to the Keys soon for a bit of a break from this...
'Have been sneaking some time in on the '05 SEEG :cherry:
Stay Warm, My Friend...
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Still sounds like the build is going well. If you pull it off with just one small snag that would be quite a success.
Weather man says we should be above freezing either Thursday or Friday so maybe I can get a spin around the block then.
Enjoy the warm and the 05
David
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Still sounds like the build is going well. If you pull it off with just one small snag that would be quite a success.
Weather man says we should be above freezing either Thursday or Friday so maybe I can get a spin around the block then.
Enjoy the warm and the 05
David
Evening Update;
Still having some ring issues, Pistons and Bores have been triple checked, everything is right on the Money, kinda has us all scratching our heads, even the Manufacturer. Everybody in on this is some of the Best Pros in the Business, I'm sure that they'll get it figured out.
The Heads / TB are working their way towards the front of the line...
Hopefully Santa will get here in time for Daytona???
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Ed what are they seeing or not seeing with your rings? Hope you have that parts list going.....lol.
David
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Ed what are they seeing or not seeing with your rings? Hope you have that parts list going.....lol.
David
David,
The way it was explained to me, the 2nd rings are not sized properly for the pistons, the compression rings and the oil control rings are good to go. They have fitted up several sets and measured everything, and still not satisfied with the tolerances (hence their conversation(s) with the Manufacturer).
That's one of the reasons that I chose Oasis, I know them to be very meticulous.
"These Boys ain't playin' I heard they quit grade school, 'cause recess was too long"
'Working on the parts list from hell... LOL
'Gotta go check on "The Ball & Chain" as she's washing the '05 & the '01 today, so that I will take her for a ride ~ almost 70* today.
Ed
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"Afternoon Update"
Since the 4th or 5th set of new rings didn't fit properly, the pistons, cylinders, and rings are now on their way to the Manufacturer :nixweiss:
I really appreciate the "Yes, we are Building a piano" mentality of the guys at Oasis!
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Ed, I hate to hear that for you, but that being said there is a lot of value in doing it right and only doing once.
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Ed, I hate to hear that for you, but that being said there is a lot of value in doing it right and only doing once.
I really appreciate the "Yes, we are Building a piano" mentality of the guys at Oasis! These guys know that my primary concern is a durable Sport Touring Motor, and that we feel that the finest components presently available are being used :2vrolijk_21:
'Sure that the Manufacturer is scratching their heads on this one also. 'Am curious to know what their solution is?
Already faced the fact that the '09 is not going to make it to Daytona this year, due to T-Mans lead time on the Heads/ TB (TR was upfront about it, as were the other Porters that I spoke with ~ they are all about the same lead time.) No big deal, as the '05 definitely knows the way :cherry:
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who is supplying the rings ? Wiseco ? dose Tman have any thing that would work for you? just wondering :nixweiss:
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who is supplying the rings ? Wiseco ? dose Tman have any thing that would work for you? just wondering :nixweiss:
T-Man probably does, but he sources from Wiseco as well...
From what I gather at this point, it's a manufacturing issue... :nixweiss:
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Evening Update; Going to 117"
After being told by the Manufacturer to run the rings that were .003-.004 > spec, the guys at Oasis & Revolution offered to give me a set of new Revolution 4.060 Nicasil Cylinders, Pistons & Rings, 'thought for a second, called back, and asked why not 117~ 4.125? if I pay for the case boring and the Cylinder Mid Bolt Kit? Oasis said sure!!! :2vrolijk_21: (aarrggghhh! will "the may as well, while we're in there" ever stop??? The CVO Forum has taken it's toll on my credit card :nervous: :nervous:
'Thinking about cams with less low end, and more top end (3k - 6k) than the T-Man 625s, since we are going to naturally gain TQ w/ the increased displacement, and have the lower ratios of the DD7. To better understand; I really preferred the "softer" bottom end of the 259s compared to the "tractor motor" with the stock 255s, especially in the low speed, tight, off camber roads that we encountered on the West Coast. Being "softer" on the bottom, it was easier for me to modulate the TBW. And we really enjoyed the "top gear roll-on" from 90+ w/ the 259s :coolblue:
'Just want to keep the compression low enough to accommodate the touring out West.
Definitely goin' to need more clutch now :pepper:
For any of y'all still following this thread, I would really appreciate any input, good, bad, or ugly, on this scenario!!
Thanks to All,
(Especially Oasis, for their "Yes we are building a piano" mentality) :2vrolijk_21:
Ed
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JMO
You've got the sickness, LOL. I would stay with your original build. Once you get into boring the cases then why gain only 4 CI? The gain vs money will be??? Then of course then why not a 120" kit, a 124" or ....?
I've been there, done that! I love my 117" but not sure I would do that again. My latest bike stayed a 110". However it really depends on your addiction, the monkey on your back. I fight with mine all the time. Heck, I'm looking at putting a 98" kit on my 95" SERK because I already own the kit. But that's just my excuse, it really doesn't make any sense to do it. I have to go take an exhaust off now to try another for more power...got to feed the addition monkey. Good luck.
JW
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call Tman... stop the insanity :-\
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I ran a 124 with the .625's in my 04 pumpkin. Loved the low end torque and believe me, you didn't miss anything at 90 mph! With the stock 5 speed and wide open, I would shift 4th to 5th at 120-125 mph and it still pulled like crazy. Ran out of bike before running out of engine as the bat wing made the front end VERY light at top end. I wouldn't change the cams
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JMO
You've got the sickness, LOL. Do you know of any 12 step programs??
I would stay with your original build. Once you get into boring the cases then why gain only 4 CI? The gain vs money will be???
It's costing me about $300. for the case boring and center bolt
Then of course then why not a 120" kit, a 124" or ....?
If I woulda known that S&S was coming out w/ a Granite 124, before I got into this build, that is the route I woulda went (see my op)
I've been there, done that! I love my 117" but not sure I would do that again.
Why? Have you had issues related to the 117?
My latest bike stayed a 110".
'Was perfectly happy with the SE Stage III, until ESP denied a claim due to a failed lifter, and refused to reinstate, unless I ran the bike bone stock, no pipes, no tune, nothing... So my dealer and I agreed to build the bottom end and go 113 so that I could have the cylinders bored by a competent machine shop, which we don't have in this area, that's when the "may as well, while we're in there" started...[/i] :nixweiss:
However it really depends on your addiction, the monkey on your back.
The '05 SEEG is bone stock :cherry:, the '01 Switchblade traps towards 120 :pepper:
I fight with mine all the time. Heck, I'm looking at putting a 98" kit on my 95" SERK because I already own the kit. But that's just my excuse, it really doesn't make any sense to do it. I have to go take an exhaust off now to try another for more power...got to feed the addition monkey. Good luck.
As you can see, I'm really good at justification. Would you be my sponsor??? Thanks!
JW
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It is your engine.....do as you please.
Some thoughts since this is no longer a hurry up project.
I would not run nicasil cylinders if they were free......they run a tick cooler....big deal its nothing new and has proven to become a problem in aircooled engines.
I honestly do not understand what the big deal with rings is,a phone call to two of the ring manufacturers....not the piston companies....should be all that is needed to take care of this.....best bet ? find another company to supply the pistons and move on.
Randy @ hyperformance has a piston for the 4.06 SE cylinders in a couple of bore sizes,might want to contact him.
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I have been to the 12 step program @ least 4 times. I was never a very good student.
Problems? Well.... if your bored on night grab a couple cold ones and put "Lexi" in the search box. That will tell some of the story. This scooter has been snake bit, BFH (bike from hell) But I'm stubborn and will not quit.
But seriously, do what feels right. You do the best you can and make fixes from there.
Seems with Nikasil; builders either endorse em or hate em.
Hope everything works out. Good luck bro.
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Welcome to my world. I just wanted to get some heat off the thing, then a reject on ESP and the slippery slope started. Hey maybe the shops are paying the ESP people off and the shops are conspiring on the work upgrades. Just a thought, no one held a gun to my head.
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Welcome to my world. I just wanted to get some heat off the thing, then a reject on ESP and the slippery slope started. Hey maybe the shops are paying the ESP people off and the shops are conspiring on the work upgrades. Just a thought, no one held a gun to my head.
Didn't you bring your bike straight from the Dealer to Oasis???
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Dang Ed, I am sure you have already explored all you options, but as I was thinking 113 the thought in my mind was to take the Suburban Speed piston that are 10.5's and mill the dome to a flat top. From my understanding there is enough dome thickness in that piston to do so and those pistons are supplied with rings
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I ran a 124 with the .625's in my 04 pumpkin. Loved the low end torque and believe me, you didn't miss anything at 90 mph! With the stock 5 speed and wide open, I would shift 4th to 5th at 120-125 mph and it still pulled like crazy. Ran out of bike before running out of engine as the bat wing made the front end VERY light at top end. I wouldn't change the cams
'Know what you mean about running out of bike, balance is the primary consideration whenever I do any mods on anything I own...
Since we have the aero-management, and suspension of the SERG dialed in, the bike is stable as a brick at 110+. ('know things change exponentially above those speeds, but the '09 feels like it can handle it) 95+ is where I prefer the Shark over the Bat
Thanks for the feedback on the cams!
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It is your engine.....do as you please.
Some thoughts since this is no longer a hurry up project.
I would not run nicasil cylinders if they were free......they run a tick cooler....big deal its nothing new and has proven to become a problem in aircooled engines.
I honestly do not understand what the big deal with rings is,a phone call to two of the ring manufacturers....not the piston companies....should be all that is needed to take care of this.....best bet ? find another company to supply the pistons and move on.
Randy @ hyperformance has a piston for the 4.06 SE cylinders in a couple of bore sizes,might want to contact him.
'Having heard the horror stories about the nicasils, I am a bit skeptical...
Both Oasis and T-Man use nicasils and bank their stellar reputations on them.
Both Oasis and T-Man know that durability is my primary concern with this Build, and that I want a bike that I can have confidence in over the long haul...
'Know that the nicasils are a "love or hate" with Builders :nixweiss:
'Thought that Wiseco made their own rings?
That's why I asked for and appreciate! y'alls input.
On your recommendation, I will speak with Oasis tomorrow about the possibility of going with different pistons/rings, maybe 4.060 +.005???
Thanks again,
Ed
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Dang Ed, I am sure you have already explored all you options, but as I was thinking 113 the thought in my mind was to take the Suburban Speed piston that are 10.5's and mill the dome to a flat top. From my understanding there is enough dome thickness in that piston to do so and those pistons are supplied with rings
David, 'never thought that one would have to modify pistons in the world of plug & play that we enjoy in today's Harley Aftermarket, especially on a 113???
'Remember back in the day ('70s) when I started with the Harleys, if you wanted something custom, you pretty much had to make it yourself...
Do you have your name on a Granite 124 yet??? Tell the truth... LOL!
Thanks for the info!
70* and sunny today, gotta get the '05 out of the barn :cherry:
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David, 'never thought that one would have to modify pistons in the world of plug & play that we enjoy in today's Harley Aftermarket, especially on a 113???
'Remember back in the day ('70s) when I started with the Harleys, if you wanted something custom, you pretty much had to make it yourself...
Do you have your name on a Granite 124 yet??? Tell the truth... LOL!
Thanks for the info!
70* and sunny today, gotta get the '05 out of the barn :cherry:
I guess to some manor never out grew those days, still pretty bad about if I cant find just what I want modify it till it is...... then wonder why the hell did I do that and what was I thinking....lol.
WELL..... names not on one yet....but..... Something to think about if your not already to deep in this motor, I emailed S&S on the granite 124 and the response I got from them pretty much says yes we are getting ready to produce granite, but didn't come out and say 124. That being said if they produce granite then would think that a person would stand a chance of getting anything in their product line in granite. The 124 would be nice, but I have been asking about a 116 kit using our granite case, their 4 5/8 crank and a drop in 4" jug. Now we keep our case with the matching SN, still keep granite jugs with o-ring bases, and could still use our 110 heads which I believe would work decent at that CI displacement. When finished we have a stock looking CVO that would be what HD should have offered from the beginning as an upgrade to the 110.
All that said maybe I should reread the first line I wrote and just order the 124....lol.
I am glad it is 70 somewhere and you can grab that ride out of the barn. Burn the road up for those of us that are looking out the window seeing more white stuff. :2vrolijk_21:
David
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Right mods, wrong bike(owner). No that guy had wrecked and bought a limited. Mine is a 2010 cvo ultra. My spiral was more slowly accomplished. I went 110- 110 cams, breather, tune- 113, 7sp- 117, Timken- and misc. add on's along the way, Dakota digitals, radio display to blue(Iron Horse) LED's to go with tourpack splitter, Progressive's, SE shifter, Hogtunes tweeter dash, VH hi-outputs and xovr hdrs and a few more. Makes me tear up thinking about it.
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I know CP has made 4.085 pistons for the 4.06 cylinders......that would be my choice over wiseco
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John, would the 110 cyl's take that much of an over bore? I was under the impression that .060 was pushing it.
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I guess to some manor never out grew those days, still pretty bad about if I cant find just what I want modify it till it is...... then wonder why the hell did I do that and what was I thinking....lol.
WELL..... names not on one yet....but..... Something to think about if your not already to deep in this motor, I emailed S&S on the granite 124 and the response I got from them pretty much says yes we are getting ready to produce granite, but didn't come out and say 124. That being said if they produce granite then would think that a person would stand a chance of getting anything in their product line in granite. The 124 would be nice, but I have been asking about a 116 kit using our granite case, their 4 5/8 crank and a drop in 4" jug. Now we keep our case with the matching SN, still keep granite jugs with o-ring bases, and could still use our 110 heads which I believe would work decent at that CI displacement. When finished we have a stock looking CVO that would be what HD should have offered from the beginning as an upgrade to the 110.
All that said maybe I should reread the first line I wrote and just order the 124....lol.
I am glad it is 70 somewhere and you can grab that ride out of the barn. Burn the road up for those of us that are looking out the window seeing more white stuff. :2vrolijk_21:
David
David,
'Don't know how I feel about increasing the stroke (piston speed) on a 'Sport Touring' bike vs bore... But, now that you mentioned it, my primary reason (how I justified it, LOL!) for head work on the new 110 heads, was to set the c/r properly... Here in the South we have 93 and (close to) sea level, 'just want the '09 to be 'happy' out West... (David, it looks to me like you are 'slap dick' in the middle)
Any recommendations for c/rs y'all??? ('gotta call TR soon and tell him about "the new 117 deal")
You mentioned earlier about the o-ring bases vs gaskets, 'curious as to how bad the 'weep' is? or if proper assembly will eliminate?
Today, my friend (averages 30k+/yr since '06) came to visit with his dialed-in 113" / DD7 Skunk, 'will get to stroll it in the AM...
Him and I agree (after failures w/the 110s) that the S&S 124 is the way to go. (he has a 124 settin' on the shelf~no $hit!) I am already N2Deep...
'Had a great day "Thumpin' the Pines" today :cherry:
Thanks,
Ed
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Right mods, wrong bike(owner). No that guy had wrecked and bought a limited. Mine is a 2010 cvo ultra. My spiral was more slowly accomplished. I went 110- 110 cams, breather, tune- 113, 7sp- 117, Timken- and misc. add on's along the way, Dakota digitals, radio display to blue(Iron Horse) LED's to go with tourpack splitter, Progressive's, SE shifter, Hogtunes tweeter dash, VH hi-outputs and xovr hdrs and a few more. Makes me tear up thinking about it.
'Got it...
'Would really appreciate your feedback on the 117... What did y'all do with the clutch?
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John, would the 110 cyl's take that much of an over bore? I was under the impression that .060 was pushing it.
I have done 3 sets of 4.06 in a 4" cylinder.....2 sets of suburban mahle pistons and one set that I had done thru my piston company and I sold the other set that the customer will be having done by his shop.
So far so good no problems.
The next order of pistons will be in 4.040 for no reason other than
I like the ring package I can do at 4.04
I like to keep cylinder walls as thick as I can and yet gain something...pistons I am doing have either a 3 or 4 cc dome to get the compression that I am looking for my own camshafts.
And I am doing the pistons in a full round skirt as I do not like the FSR/Slipper skirt bullchit that Wiseco/JE and others are doing.....these are touring bikes and piston stability is paramount to making these things live long healthy lives.
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I have done 3 sets of 4.06 in a 4" cylinder.....2 sets of suburban mahle pistons and one set that I had done thru my piston company and I sold the other set that the customer will be having done by his shop.
So far so good no problems.
The next order of pistons will be in 4.040 for no reason other than
I like the ring package I can do at 4.04
How much CI does the 4.04 bore give with the 4-3/8 stroke?
I like to keep cylinder walls as thick as I can and yet gain something...pistons I am doing have either a 3 or 4 cc dome to get the compression that I am looking for my own camshafts.
And I am doing the pistons in a full round skirt as I do not like the FSR/Slipper skirt bullchit that Wiseco/JE and others are doing.....these are touring bikes and piston stability is paramount to making these things live long healthy lives.
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I have done 3 sets of 4.06 in a 4" cylinder.....2 sets of suburban mahle pistons and one set that I had done thru my piston company and I sold the other set that the customer will be having done by his shop.
So far so good no problems.
The next order of pistons will be in 4.040 for no reason other than
I like the ring package I can do at 4.04
I like to keep cylinder walls as thick as I can and yet gain something...pistons I am doing have either a 3 or 4 cc dome to get the compression that I am looking for my own camshafts.
And I am doing the pistons in a full round skirt as I do not like the FSR/Slipper skirt bullchit that Wiseco/JE and others are doing.....these are touring bikes and piston stability is paramount to making these things live long healthy lives.
Would you have any issues in cutting the dome on the Suburban Speed piston to a flat top? I think it has like a 9cc dome on it. Could the pistons you are using at 4.040 be cut to a flat top?
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David,
'Don't know how I feel about increasing the stroke (piston speed) on a 'Sport Touring' bike vs bore... But, now that you mentioned it, my primary reason (how I justified it, LOL!) for head work on the new 110 heads, was to set the c/r properly... Here in the South we have 93 and (close to) sea level, 'just want the '09 to be 'happy' out West... (David, it looks to me like you are 'slap dick' in the middle)
Any recommendations for c/rs y'all??? ('gotta call TR soon and tell him about "the new 117 deal")
You mentioned earlier about the o-ring bases vs gaskets, 'curious as to how bad the 'weep' is? or if proper assembly will eliminate?
Today, my friend (averages 30k+/yr since '06) came to visit with his dialed-in 113" / DD7 Skunk, 'will get to stroll it in the AM...
Him and I agree (after failures w/the 110s) that the S&S 124 is the way to go. (he has a 124 settin' on the shelf~no $hit!) I am already N2Deep...
'Had a great day "Thumpin' the Pines" today :cherry:
Thanks,
Ed
Ed,
For the most part in this area the best you will see will be 91 and that is usually an alcohol blend. If you are a 2-up rider, once summer gets going that is not enough to support much more than about 200 CCP if you are riding hard on the twist's. Maybe a little more but not a lot especially if you are loaded.
The base gasket/o-ring deal is a toss up from what I can find depending on how much is removed from the case for the larger bore and how much o-ring groove is left in the case. Some builders will shy away from it, while others will tell you no problem. Local guy I have some faith in say 50/50 and he would be happy to build it but if it weeps it's still mine. Ed, I am no builder, this is just information I have been feed while in search of a way to keep a granite motor in my bike without having to rob a bank to powder coat. I am sure that some of the builders on here can answer that better than me.
I am still very interested in hearing how you like you buddy's 113. Call me anal, but I am still not sold on the 124 for a couple reasons, and the biggest one is when you walk by my Yellow glide I want it to still have SN's that match, case and jugs that look like they belong there, and a set of heads that still have the 110 medallion on then. I know I will sacrifice a lot of motor, but like you said before I bet it will still get me a ticket anywhere I go. Yes you can say it.....boy he is screwing up....lol. Going to take some thought before I jump 124.....maybe....lol.
David
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And if I worked that dang calculator correct that 4.040 bore would come out like 112.17 CI
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Ed,
For the most part in this area the best you will see will be 91 and that is usually an alcohol blend. If you are a 2-up rider, once summer gets going that is not enough to support much more than about 200 CCP if you are riding hard on the twist's. Maybe a little more but not a lot especially if you are loaded.
'Rode through Oklahoma City a couple of times, and 91 is the best that you can do, as it the rest of the West, except Colorado where 90 is the best.
Oasis said that I should be fine w/ 10.4-1 anywhere I go... T-Man says the 625s work well at 10.2 - 10.6, he likes 10.6, but to be a little on the safe side (with the way I ride the '09), I wanted to split the difference at 10.4
The base gasket/o-ring deal is a toss up from what I can find depending on how much is removed from the case for the larger bore and how much o-ring groove is left in the case. Some builders will shy away from it, while others will tell you no problem. Local guy I have some faith in say 50/50 and he would be happy to build it but if it weeps it's still mine. Ed, I am no builder, this is just information I have been feed while in search of a way to keep a granite motor in my bike without having to rob a bank to powder coat. I am sure that some of the builders on here can answer that better than me.
David, don't sell yourself short, I've picked up some good info from you, Thanks!
Oasis and T-Man have a ton of the nicasils out there, I guess (hope!lol) they have everything figured out.
I am still very interested in hearing how you like you buddy's 113. Call me anal, but I am still not sold on the 124 for a couple reasons, and the biggest one is when you walk by my Yellow glide I want it to still have SN's that match, case and jugs that look like they belong there, and a set of heads that still have the 110 medallion on then. I know I will sacrifice a lot of motor, but like you said before I bet it will still get me a ticket anywhere I go. Yes you can say it.....boy he is screwing up....lol. Going to take some thought before I jump 124.....maybe....lol.
My buddy's name is David also, he's already got well over 30k on his 113/DD7 and it is a friggin' rocket of a "Sport Touring" Skunk!!! Effortless power everywhere, a very well balanced "Sport Touring" platform. He had the front rod bearing go at 16k-110 Stage III, Oasis has built him a motor that has restored his confidence in the bike~priceless...
I would have been very happy with the 113, but couldn't pass up the upgrade to 117, for basically the cost of boring and the special center bolt, especially since I was going to have to look at non-stock cylinders anyway...
'Having a stock looking bike, with matching #s was valuable to me also, even though I have spent so much $ on the '09 that I am way upside down and could not get rid of it without taking a bath :nixweiss: (not that I'm looking to)
Our mindset with the 124, is that you know to do a 113 "right" (bottom end and all) one can easily put thousands more $$ into a 113, than the 124, and it is a proven package, already dialed in. My power hungry days are over with the '01 Switchblade (it is a balanced rocket of a bar hopper, and has always drawn a crowd where ever it goes) so the extra power of the 124 was secondary to me.
I'm sure that you will be happy with the 113, as I know you have done your research and will select a Builder that you trust.
BTW 'still working on the parts list.
BTW2 My Tech told me today that the DD7 install was no problem, went right in.
Thanks again,
Ed
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Decisions decisions decisions....lol.
I think you will be happy with the 117....very happy. I would be! I know your looking at a little more mid and top than I am, but I rode a 117 with the 585 in it and it would rip your arms off low and mid.
How is the Skunks's 113 built?
Now with S&S offering help for us granite CVO owners, will mother Harley came back with a granite 120 or have they completely abandoned us?
What if....
Just when I think I had a plan...
David
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Decisions decisions decisions....lol. I know... :nixweiss:
I think you will be happy with the 117....very happy. I would be! I know your looking at a little more mid and top than I am, but I rode a 117 with the 585 in it and it would rip your arms off low and mid.
Did that 117 bike have a DD7? I'm not chasing #s with this build, 'just figured that with the ratios of the 7 that I would prefer the curves a little to the right, and a little more operating (rev) range. As I mentioned earlier, the operating range of the stock (255s) motor really didn't suit my preferences.
How is the Skunks's 113 built?
Line Bore, Timken, Hefty Lefty
Silvermoon Crank, Carillo Rods
Wiseco or CP Pistons
Stock SE Cylinders
High 9s Compression?
Feuling Plate / Pump
Woods 408-6s, Directional Lifters
Hurricane Heads (worked) S&S Roller Rockers
Forged Rocker Supports
HPI TB, 5.3 Injectors
PC-V / Auto
S&S Pipes/Mufflers
'Sure that everything not listed, is high end components.
(he wasn't as picky with his parts list as I am LOL)
He rides solo 99%
Now with S&S offering help for us granite CVO owners, will mother Harley came back with a granite 120 or have they completely abandoned us?
Personally, I would prefer a 113 with a "proper" bottom end (like the one we are building) much more than a HD 120R! (IMHO the SE bottom end could still use some improvements) If not for the ring issues (you know my deal) I would perfectly happy w/ the 113. I feel that the 113/DD7 is a great, durable, balanced, combination for a "Sport Touring" Bike and I have a "sleeper" w/ matching #s
What if.... If wishes were wings, frogs wouldn't bump their ass...LOL!
Just when I think I had a plan...
David
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Ok now I follow you thinking on cam with the DD7. I know how much the DD7 shortened up the cam in my bike so a short cam would really be short. No the 117 with the 585 was in a 06 Street Glide and actually had the DD6 behind it, and if you were to be able to get the 7 behind it.....yep I follow you...lol.
I sure hope the 117 works out well, if that is the direction you choose to go. It would be really nice to actually know someone with recent first hand experience with the Rev Peform kit.
Keep that part list going my friend, because I am still very torn between the 113 and the stock appearing bike and the 124. And keep us updated on the 117 as well.
David
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Would you have any issues in cutting the dome on the Suburban Speed piston to a flat top? I think it has like a 9cc dome on it. Could the pistons you are using at 4.040 be cut to a flat top?
The pistons that I have made are back-milled to reduce weight and cannot be cut,if you want a set of flattops I can make some of those as well....no problem.
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oops that is the 4CC dome
underside
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how you make the domes
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TorqueInc,
Those pistons look like they have some potential!
Do you have a foundry in the back yard? lol
Are these pistons going to require any crank balancing?
David,
The Build remains the same, except for the nicasils and 4 more inches.
I guess somebody needs to be the 'monkey' for the nicasils, it may as well be me... :nixweiss:
'Never thought that there would be this much 'piston drama' in this day and time :nervous: :nervous: especially with "off the shelf" components...
'Got an early education about gearing, and operating ranges, racing speed boats, in my younger days. 'Was fortunate to be involved with OMC and Mercury in their V-6 Development Programs, in the '70s, as the V-6s were a quantum leap in the technology of the time.
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TorqueInc,
Those pistons look like they have some potential!
Do you have a foundry in the back yard? lol
Are these pistons going to require any crank balancing?
David,
The Build remains the same, except for the nicasils and 4 more inches.
I guess somebody needs to be the 'monkey' for the nicasils, it may as well be me... :nixweiss:
'Never thought that there would be this much 'piston drama' in this day and time :nervous: :nervous: especially with "off the shelf" components...
'Got an early education about gearing, and operating ranges, racing speed boats, in my younger days. 'Was fortunate to be involved with OMC and Mercury in their V-6 Development Programs, in the '70s, as the V-6s were a quantum leap in the technology of the time.
They do not require the engine to be rebalanced...I provide factory pistons to the manufacturer to get the weights within a couple grams....hell none of the Harley engines(that I know of) are balanced from the factory anyhow.
Nope no foundry...foundrys are the devil...followed by pattern makers and guys who own machine shops that actually do raw casting machining
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John,
4cc dome might could work for me, PM you. Back cut and straight rods, looks good. What is the dome thickness when you done with them? 2.17 In 1.65 Ex, that is a head full of valves....lol
Ed
Honestly you may have the best before the rest of us do with the Rev kit. When you go to asking around about them lots and lots of people can tell stories of all the bad times of old with them, but never hear any horror stories in the recent times.
We never had enough water to spend much time with the race boats, but sure spent a lot of time on the quarter mile and the local dirt tracks. I am thinking fast on the water would scared the s*@t out of me!! I guess the piston drama is something I have seen enough of the it doesn't bother me a whole lot to throw a piston in the piston vice and mill the dome to whatever is needed and rebalance, if the crown thickness is there. I kind of have an advantage on that though because my brother owns an automotive machine shop complete with dyno. I still have a lot to learn about the Twin Cam world and have learned a whole lot by listening to what these builders have to say as well a the members here.....now if I could just understand it.....
What kind of time line are they thinking now?
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John, how are the Harley crank rod assy's balanced? In the auto world you balance the piston, the rod, and create a bob weigh that bolts to the crank....how does that work in the HD world when the crank/rods are assembled as one piece?
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John,
4cc dome might could work for me, PM you. Back cut and straight rods, looks good. What is the dome thickness when you done with them? 2.17 In 1.65 Ex, that is a head full of valves....lol
Ed
Honestly you may have the best before the rest of us do with the Rev kit. When you go to asking around about them lots and lots of people can tell stories of all the bad times of old with them, but never hear any horror stories in the recent times.
We never had enough water to spend much time with the race boats, but sure spent a lot of time on the quarter mile and the local dirt tracks. I am thinking fast on the water would scared the s*@t out of me!! I guess the piston drama is something I have seen enough of the it doesn't bother me a whole lot to throw a piston in the piston vice and mill the dome to whatever is needed and rebalance, if the crown thickness is there. I kind of have an advantage on that though because my brother owns an automotive machine shop complete with dyno. I still have a lot to learn about the Twin Cam world and have learned a whole lot by listening to what these builders have to say as well a the members here.....now if I could just understand it.....
What kind of time line are they thinking now?
Oasis and T-Man should have their goodies to Heritage Cycles H-D 'the first of this coming week. The GM asked me yesterday for a little 'breathing room', since the Service Dept. is swamped with Daytona. We're gettin' closer :nervous:
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is it time to go back and edit the subject line to 117? lol
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John, how are the Harley crank rod assy's balanced? In the auto world you balance the piston, the rod, and create a bob weigh that bolts to the crank....how does that work in the HD world when the crank/rods are assembled as one piece?
From the factory they are not balanced,what hoban,silvermoon,falicon,r&r cycle and others do seems to vary some but I leave the crank work to the pros.
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John, would the 110 cyl's take that much of an over bore? I was under the impression that .060 was pushing it.
no problems with .060 on 4" cylinders,we`ve done quite a few sets,no probs
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John the only DOMES I can see are in your avatar sic !!! And you rocking the bibs :2vrolijk_21:
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Bibs everyday brother :2vrolijk_21:
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Here's a set of CP's at 4.075" bore. This piston is made with a 6cc dome that was whittled down to a flat top and then thermal barrier coatings were applied to the crowns and dry film to the skirts. Just got them finished up a couple days ago but thought you guys might like to check them out.
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Those look good.
Are those the new bullet style. If they are I didn't think you could cut the dome cause those were too thin due to the lightweight design. I deal with the factory direct and that's what they said?
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Yes they're bullet series but these are custom tailored with the intent of having one piston to cover 2 applications. They are made with the dome for those that need it but the custom design permits cutting it down to a flat top. The set you see in the picture were domed and have been cut.
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Here's a set of CP's at 4.075" bore. This piston is made with a 6cc dome that was whittled down to a flat top and then thermal barrier coatings were applied to the crowns and dry film to the skirts. Just got them finished up a couple days ago but thought you guys might like to check them out.
Purdy :2vrolijk_21:
How long have you been using the coatings? Is there any real world data as to the benefits of the thermal coatings? BlackDiamond seemed to have some issues with the coatings on his "Lexi" Build...
About how much $ to have the tops of the pistons coated?
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Going to have to run back across the river again and take a look at some pistons...
Ed were your 110 jugs bored already?
David
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I just started using the coatings in the last few months and nothing Ive used them on has come back to the shop yet. I have a 98" build in the works right now that has the pistons, combustion chambers, valve faces and exhaust port coated. The owner is a local that I see regularly and he does a lot of parade and competition riding so it will be interesting to get his feedback on whether he notices a real difference with the coatings and I'll bore scope it after its been ran a year or so and see how they're holding up. The place I send them to says the coatings have proven to make considerable more power and allow more advance on the timing curve but I have not done any testing that would prove one way or the other yet. The cost for the thermal barrier coating for a pair of pistons runs about $50.00. The cylinder heads done as described runs about $100.00 for the pair. See attachment to check out the coated heads.
Dave, c'mon back! The pistons I posted above will be getting installed hopefully by this time next week as well as another set of CP's I just had the crowns coated on that are going on a 98". If you'd like a set of those you know where to find me... or you can always go for the 124" in granite I was telling you about and enjoy that and the warranty that comes with that. ;) I just finished installing a new set of S&S 585G's and a Feuling pump/plate on the 98" yesterday and Im waiting on a new clutch for it that should be here Monday morning. After these two builds are buttoned up I'll be pulling 2 more down and sending those SE 103+ heads and the factory SE 95" heads I showed you down to Sachs. He'll be doing the heads for my T124 also. In the meantime I have a set of heads on the way back from Bean for another motor I tore down since you were here. Im pretty well slammed but you're welcome to swing by and check these pistons out. You'll like em and I've got more on the way!
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Exhaust port
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James, if work treats me well next week maybe I can run by one afternoon.
Ed is the T man 625 the direction on the cam still?
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Intresting.
I would say it works better than polishing the combustion chamber. Seems like a good idea for these air cooled motors.
Who do we send to and what's turn around time.
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These were done by Polymer Dynamics. Them being in Texas works well for me since Im located in Oklahoma. With race season just around the corner, they are very busy but as a dealer for them and because I have sent them quite a bit of stuff recently, they are getting things done pretty quick for me. Usually within a weeks time. There are other companies that offer these services also but I dont have any experience with them. Another coating they offer besides the thermal barriers and the dry film coatings is the oil shedding coating. An example of where you'd have that done is to the underside of pistons, your cam chest area and possibly the flywheels and con rods?? I think they also coat intake ports with it to aid in fuel suspension. Swain Tech, Nitro Plate and other companies offer these type coatings as well.
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Going to have to run back across the river again and take a look at some pistons...
Ed were your 110 jugs bored already?
David
David,
'Would think that the (new)110 Jugs were bored to the supplied pistons, for a piston / wall clearance of .002, which I believe was validated by the manufacturer? (the nicasils are .001) The ring end gap of the 2nd ring (on 4 sets) was >spec (we all know it's easier to subtract than add, when it comes to rings lol)
From what I gather, the jugs / pistons are good to go, just that the Manufacturer was ok with the 2nd ring size :nervous:, and Oasis ("Building a Piano") was not :nixweiss:
If you and your brother could come up with a set of (2nd) rings that you would be happy with, I think these (jugs / pistons) are good to go...
We spec'd out the 625s originally with TR, and he knows about the additional cubes, c/r still at 10.4, the heads were supposed to ship yesterday, so I guess we are going to give 'em a go... 'Just hope that he put enough in the heads to accommodate the losses (that TR told me) I will incur with the DD7 :drink:
The 625s pull towards 6k, when we get the 117 sorted, it should carry well from 2800 to the limiter, in any gear :2vrolijk_21:
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Here's a set of CP's at 4.075" bore. This piston is made with a 6cc dome that was whittled down to a flat top and then thermal barrier coatings were applied to the crowns and dry film to the skirts. Just got them finished up a couple days ago but thought you guys might like to check them out.
I know CP puts a lot of effort into building there pistons taking into consideration heat and expansion..
What do you think the protective coating does to the expansion rate? It would seem to me that the top of the piston wil not alow it to expand like it should and expose the top ring more. Possibly allowing the piston to rock more in the bore.
Are you going to go with a tighter bore clearance for the pistons?
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Ed do you happen to know what the ring sizes were for the pistons? I have no idea if they would be compatible or not but maybe a call to Total Seal or one of the other auto ring manufactures would supply a ring set. 4.060 would be a .060 Chevy 350??? Wonder if they would interchange?
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Cp ring packs are
Top .048
Second .048
Oil Ring .119
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I know CP puts a lot of effort into building there pistons taking into consideration heat and expansion..
What do you think the protective coating does to the expansion rate? It would seem to me that the top of the piston wil not alow it to expand like it should and expose the top ring more. Possibly allowing the piston to rock more in the bore.
Are you going to go with a tighter bore clearance for the pistons?
I've thought about that also and to be honest, I don't know the exact answer but I believe CP will do the coatings if you ask them to and pay for it. I also talked to Randy at Hyperformance and he didn't think it was a bad idea. That's not exactly a detailed and specific answer to suggest a yes it's ok or a no, don't do it but it's all I have for now. If you turned up more info about it I would be interested in your findings. That being said, I set these up on the tight side of the spectrum anyhow. With the SE pistons at least, I have found that setting up in the middle or loose side they will run good and not burn oil but they can be a little noisy. I know this isn't a "I know everything" response but it's an honest response.
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I know CP puts a lot of effort into building there pistons taking into consideration heat and expansion..
What do you think the protective coating does to the expansion rate? It would seem to me that the top of the piston wil not alow it to expand like it should and expose the top ring more. Possibly allowing the piston to rock more in the bore.
Are you going to go with a tighter bore clearance for the pistons?
Warm the engine up before dropping the hammer=no problems
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Ed do you happen to know what the ring sizes were for the pistons? I have no idea if they would be compatible or not but maybe a call to Total Seal or one of the other auto ring manufactures would supply a ring set. 4.060 would be a .060 Chevy 350??? Wonder if they would interchange?
David,
I don't have a clue? The rings were one of the last things that I thought would be an issue on this Build. 'Figured that the shop that I selected for the machine work (Oasis) would be best to spec and source the piston kits? Oasis has done tons of these and they assure me that they have never seen this issue before.
Just like your other question about if the nicasils required 'special' rings (both great questions btw! 'got my curiosity up too, I'm sure we will know the answers before we get to the end of this road lol)
You might find this comical~I do... One of the biggest reasons that I decided on 113 vs 110, was that while the original pistons and bores (at 9+k miles) looked brand new except for a little carbon on the piston tops, my Tech had to do an aggressive honing (w/torque plates) to get the 10.5 (std) pistons from the SE Stage III Kit to fit, and on this go-around, since we don't have any competent machine shops around here, I figured that I would have to send the cylinders out for boring anyway, to insure a proper fit, and 113 looked to be a proven combination... Since we are going to the 4.125 nicasils, I haven't thought much more about it?
If the sizing is the same, and the ring material is the same (air vs water cooling?) 'don't see why they wouldn't interchange :nixweiss: 'Never even though to ask if Wiseco makes their own rings or if they source them? Seems like it would be easy enough to get 4.060 + .005 rings and file them to fit? 'Just glad at this point, that I'm not doing this Build to put food on the table...
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I know CP puts a lot of effort into building there pistons taking into consideration heat and expansion..
What do you think the protective coating does to the expansion rate? It would seem to me that the top of the piston wil not alow it to expand like it should and expose the top ring more. Possibly allowing the piston to rock more in the bore.
Are you going to go with a tighter bore clearance for the pistons?
I believe that your reading more into it, than is there.....
Scott
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What do you think the protective coating does to the expansion rate?
Nothing
The coating gives insurance that's it. A few oopsies and the coating is gone then the next one and the piston scuffs.
What Torque said, warm it up first.
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What do you think the protective coating does to the expansion rate?
Nothing
The coating gives insurance that's it. A few oopsies and the coating is gone then the next one and the piston scuffs.
What Torque said, warm it up first.
The coating(s) seem to be a good idea for racing engines (although none of their image gallery pics have an air cooled HD in them).
When initially speaking w/ Oasis about specing out the pistons, I wanted the coating on the skirts, Mark said that all the pistons that they use come with the skirt coating. The Ceramic coating sounds like a good idea on the piston domes, but with all the piston / ring drama that I've been having, I'm not even thinking about changing a thing!!!
'Wish Black Diamond would weigh in on this, as he seems to have experience with the coatings in a street Harley...
'Don't know about the "Oil Shedding Coating" on the underside of the pistons? (What are piston squirters for :nixweiss:)
'Sent PD an inquiry about ceramic coating the inside of the (used) V&H PowerDuals, we'll see what they have to say
http://www.polydyn.com/cylinder_heads.htm
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Polydyn is the best there is hands down.
Avoid Swain,Jet Hot and there are a couple others who have copied Polydyn....and they just cannot get the stuff right.
Other good coaters of exhaust are Nitroplate and my favorite Lo-Ko
The lo-ko black header coating is just about bulletproof....all of my dyno headers are coated by them and have seen all sorts of lean conditions....wd 40 sprayed on them when hot and abuse and still looks great.
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'Wish Black Diamond would weigh in on this, as he seems to have experience with the coatings in a street Harley...
JMO, I noticed no difference as a rider with or with out coatings on the pistons, heads or pipes. If the package I'm looking to use have a thermal coating on them fine. If not I'm good with that too. I think having a good tune, changing your oil every 5000 mi, use good gas, and doing the preventive stuff to keep her running good is much more important. From discussions I had with many of the builders here and elsewhere, my feeling is coatings "work" to some degree but really "make no real world difference". There's a company that has a patent on diamond cutting cylinders and heads because it reduces heat. Real world difference you decide. It is pretty. I use to think my exhaust ran cooler coated. Now I can't tell you if one is coated or not but all will burn you if you touch them.
If your builder thinks coatings work and you have trust in him...no harm. To those selling the coated stuff, if you believe in it sell it. If it's just because the customer wants it (that why it had been done on my motor) so be it.
JMO
JW
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I agree with your assessment. Timing plays in heavily. Ever see red glowing pipes?
We use Finishline over this way. But that said the value added I feel is small only
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Coating done properly flat out works! The issue is some are sold to customers expecting way to much from them. If it were me I always coat piston skirts, that is a must these days. Top coating of the piston helps make the piston last longer and truely improves combustion by keeping carbon formation away from the top of the piston. Will it gain you a bunch of HP, NO but maybe 1 or 2 out of a 120 HP build. Don't do it for the power alone. As for exhaust coatings on the pipes very few do it right but done properly they will reduce the heat by a few degrees (maybe 50F) once at full temperature, the pipe will cool down quicker and heat up slower. The big trick is to fine someone that real coats all the way through the inside! Many say they are but closer inspection will show just the first several inches from either end are really done, the easy to get to part. Attach you will see a poorly done coating job that a customer sent me. This didn't even last one full season of riding.
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Ed, got a question if it's not to late for an answer. What diameter was your case bored to for the Rev Perf 117 jugs, and how much of the o-ring groove was left in the case? Was the remaining groove filled or does the base gasket squeeze down into the remaining groove for sealing?
Sorry that turned into more than one question... Lol.
Thanks
David
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Evening Update;
T-Man has finished his Magic, and the Heads & TB should arrive tomorrow at Oasis for validation. Oasis told me last week that they were just waiting on the Heads, all the rest of their work was completed
Checking with PolyDyn http://www.polydyn.com/ about coating the PowerDual Head Pipe, but I'm not going to let that hold us up...
'Am having second thoughts about the PC-V / Auto since even though FM and DJ say that they have plenty of Base Maps, neither has anything for the 117 with the '09 ECM? 'Considered the PV, but the same deal, and DJ / FM have not addressed the PV / DD7 yet. If the new Maximus Tuner is not the solution that I am looking for, then we will "0" Map (or load a 120R Map - the closest thing that DJ/FM could come up with) the PC-V, set the AutoTune on early, and fire it up...
A plus for the PC-V is that it accommodates DynoJet's "Quick Shifter"
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Products/QuickShifter/powercommander_quick_shifter.aspx
If Oasis puts their blessing on the Quick Shifter, I will probably give it a try, to give the clutch a break on those WOT upshifts :bananarock:
edit; Oasis wasn't too keen on the Quick Shifter, as they had a blown DD7 sitting there because the QS went out of adjustment and the customer kept using it, when it was not staggering the ignition...
David, I have a call into Oasis about The Maximus Tuner, if I get a chance to ask them about your questions, I will, if not, I will definitely know next week, and get back with you.
The weather looks good next week and I might drive to Brandon, MS and put the $ saved on shipping for a road trip :)
:2vrolijk_21:
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Thank you, I am still playing this o-ring vs base gasket deal through my head
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Thank you, I am still playing this o-ring vs base gasket deal through my head
dont use either.
Use rubberized silicone.
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hows the project coming along :nixweiss:
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Evening Update...
The V&H PowerDuals, Roland Sands Design Slip-Ons, Heat Shields, clamps and baffels are on the way to PolyDyn Performance Coatings for their Titanium Ceramic Coating.
Hopefully, all components should be at Heritage Cycles H-D in Ft. Walton Beach for final assembly sometime next week.
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Ed, your going to have that beast up and running here shortly. Heck you may have that 09 on the road before it warms up enough here to leave the house before noon.
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Evening Update;
These Boys 'Aint Playin' :bananarock:
The "Ball & Chain" and I went to Oasis Cycles yesterday to pick up the Oasis Cycles Worked (Timken, Hefty Lefty, Line Honed & Cylinder Bored, Center Bolt, HT Studs installed, Deck Height Validation, Shimmed for the S&S Crank) Cases, Cometic Head/Base Gasket Kit, Revolution Performance Cylinders / Pistons / Rings, T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads, Ported/Polished SE 58mm TB, Feuling Cam Plate & Oil Pump.
All the Components look like Works of Art :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Since I just brought the components to Heritage Cycles H-D today, Final Assembly is scheduled for this coming week.
David,
About half of the O-ring groove is gone due to the Case Boring, the Cometic Base Gaskets appear to be up to the job, in addition, Oasis supplied (2) O-rings (about 1/2" across ~ for the small O-ring grooves near the studs) to go under the Cometics. This is their "fix" to prevent weeping. 'Noticed that Revolution Performance has very detailed instructions for Installation of the Nicasils.
Everybody involved in this Build is working on the Parts List. We are going to document the specs such as, Crank Runout, CCP, and anything else that y'all suggest? during Assembly, check them over time, and report back here and to the Vendors ~ Good or Bad...
Any suggestions of things that we should start tracking along the service life of this vehicle would be appreciated!
The Maximus System is being launched very soon and we are going that route.
The Maximus has "Flash Tuning" capabilities and so much more than anything else currently available today ~ light years ahead!!! Along with Advanced Tuning Capabilities, The Maximus will help the Mothership with "Right to Service" Compliance (Diagnostics). Since Oasis is a (the?) Training Center for Maximus, the '09 SERG 117/DD7 will be used for Beta Testing ('Won't be the first time I've been somebody's monkey LOL!)
And yes, Maximus will run through Bluetooth from the iPhone...
Gettin' Closer :cherry:
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Just missed seeing you at Oasis. I was there about 15 minutes after you left. My bike was out front. Good luck on putting everything together.
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Ed thank you for the detailed reports as your build goes along.. It will be really nice if the base gasket set up works well. That would give the chance to build some cubes and keep our SN intact. If they get you together next week you could still be breathing new life into the 09 before I am able to get out and ride before 10 am. Keep the news coming.
David
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Just missed seeing you at Oasis. I was there about 15 minutes after you left. My bike was out front. Good luck on putting everything together.
pkl,
Mark, Charlie, Paul & Sharon are Good to Go in my book! Their Operation is really impressive to me! They all take pride in their craft, and are Great to deal with :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Sorry we missed you!
'Might ride the '05 SEEG up there around the middle of this week...
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Snake
Dome coating can effect the % of piston expansion. A dome coating ,...it will reflect the heat from the piston dome thus you get less piston expansion. So you can in fact run less piston to wall clearance. Depending on application it may be huge or it may be a few tenths.
We are working to have domes and skirts coated on all of our kits. As well coatings on other surfaces and parts.. Skirts coatings are not all equal and even though some major players in the piston game have them on the piston. Some of it is just a black coating with a logo in it.
Other coatings can "hold" oil thus you get a better surface protection. Oil shedding coatings , DLC coatings, you name it the sky is the limit.
At this point I do not think that we will be doing any combustion chamber coatings do to the nature of the reflective coating.The heat from the burn will increase your combustion chamber temperature. That can increase power however that stock head is a heat sink and thus if you ramp up that temperature to far with these engines it may lead to a "build" that is going to want to ping instead. You pull timing to offset and that you end up back at square one.. Hillsides build that lozano brothers tuned. Coatings where removed the engine then ran correctly. This is not the first time that this has popped up.... To be clear I am not stating that Hillside or anyone for that matter made a mistake. Just looking at the data. As well Mike and I spoke about it..
Coating company to company I cannot state what one does or the other does. Air cooled engine is another beast compared to a water jacketed engine.
Looking back at the old alky drag engine , a reduction of .0025 piston to wall clearance .009 down to .006 with the use of dome and skirt coatings. That is not going to happen in a HD but coating have come a long ways and it moving forward..
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Evening Update;
'Just dropped off the Red Shift Dual Piston Hydraulic Tensioners and T-Man 625 Cams to Heritage Cycles H-D.
The Bottom end is together (crank feels good :2vrolijk_21:) Sam S (The Tech) is scheduled to get back on it the first of the week.
PolyDyn Coatings shipped the Exhaust today (as promised). 'Can't wait to see the V&H PowerDuals / Roland Sands Design Tracker Slip-ons with their Titanium Ceramic Coating (hopefully the Ti color will be close to the graphics on the '09 SERG)
After speaking with Oasis (pkl, sorry I missed you again) we decided to do the initial start-up / break-in with the PC-V / Auto, then move to the Maximus.
Oasis has Maps for the PC-V that neither DynoJet or FuelMoto have.
While I was there, Oasis loaded a (similar) 117 Map that will work with the '09 ECM.
Gettin' closer :cherry:
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My apologies also. Mark and Phillip called but damn if work didn't get in the way. Sounds as if everything falling into place. Good luck.
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Weekend Update;
Motor in frame, Cam Chest complete, Cylinders, Heads on, (1) Rocker Box complete.
S&S Crank runout .0005 (installed). Rings (prepped by Oasis Cycles) in the middle of spec ('Just don't have the #s in front of me)
A lot of time was spent (along with conversations w/ Andrew at Revolution Performance) on cleaning / prepping the Nicasils for installation. If we have issues with the Nicasils, they won't be for improper installation...
The PolyDyn Coating on the pipes / mufflers / heat shields look great, I was a little disappointed that PolyDyn did not coat the interior of the V&H PowerDual Head pipe at all...
Going to heat cycle / break-in per S&S the first of the week.
Getting closer... :cherry:
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Did you ask if the pipe was to be 100% coated inside and out?? Karl the owner of PolyDyn is a straight shooter I am sure you can get the answer from him. Reading your post makes it seem like you did not get what you asked for?? This is why the net can be hard to sort through..
Any plans on bore scope and leak down once tuned? I would start with that to have it on record , just good common sense there.
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Did you ask if the pipe was to be 100% coated inside and out?? Karl the owner of PolyDyn is a straight shooter I am sure you can get the answer from him. Reading your post makes it seem like you did not get what you asked for?? This is why the net can be hard to sort through..
Any plans on bore scope and leak down once tuned? I would start with that to have it on record , just good common sense there.
'Was dealing with Ryan at PolyDyn, and he told me that the pipe would not be coated 100% inside, that they would spray as far into the pipe as they could, there was no coating at all inside the (head)pipe...
'Plan to do CCP after (oil) pressurization, at the 50mile oil change, 500 mile oil change, 5,000mile oil change and barring any issues, we will CCP/ inspect Cam Chest / check run-out at 20k intervals. (of course we will document oil consumption along the way)
Steve, And anybody else that cares to chime in?
What intervals do you recommend leak down / bore scope?
What other checks / inspections do you recommend that we document / track with this Build?
Thanks,
Ed
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Thanks for clearing up the coating.
I would get the bike broke in dyno tuned and at that point do the CCP test and leak down along with bore scope. Now I can show you where CCp test and leak down passed yet there still can have issues with cylinder and or piston etc. As a leak down is done at TDC so you are only checking a small area. Oil usage is another ring that is not getting tested at all so that is what it is..
I would check it at 1000 miles 2500 5000. If nothing is changing by then :2vrolijk_21:, oil usage is a big issue... no oil on piston dome cylinder is not golden in color. I would say that you are good. Oil usage and piston slap are what I have seen on kits .
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'Not in a big hurry to put this bike on the drum. I'm wanting to break-in and put on some miles with the PC-V / Auto (get the motor dialed in with the PC-V), then do a baseline on the dyno, then do some Beta with the Maximus (V-Tuning) and (finally) see what can be achieved with a Dyno Tune. (We're trying to get some info on plug-in/auto vs flash/v-tune, vs flash/dyno)
'Big fan of mini-skirts on chicks. Pistons, not so much...
'Do like that the piston / wall (of the Nicasils) is 1/2 that of Ductile Iron... (we are really curious to see how things play out ~scuffing, slap, consumption~ with this set-up :nervous:)
'Scoping the walls at BDC, along with leak down, oil consumption, & CCP, should give us a decent "read" on this deal...
At this time, we are leaving the breathers vented into the intake (T-Man & Oasis recommended this), we'll keep an eye on this, and try to correlate with what we see going on inside...
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Glad you got her together! Can never have enough YELLOW bikes on the road. Still really interested to see what your thoughts are on your new combo!
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Well unless your shop has done another of these builds as a twin your PV map is only a starting point. If you vary AFR too much ( rich or lean) the auto tune will not work very well ...Some time not at all in that given area,, until changes are made.
So that shop will warranty engine's if they fail based on a auto tuner?? :nixweiss: with a PC-V tuner on something this large?? What base cal is in bike?? seems an odd way to go being that the PC-V and the stock ECM do not even work together well One is speed density the other alpha N.. .. Why would you use this tuner?? As this engine is way beyond what this tuner is up to handle. You are removing all of the great features of the stock ecm to tune it half baked with tps vs rpm??
As for leak down you can check it where you want but without working with the pushrods you can only check at TDC.
Well best of luck with the build and data logging. :2vrolijk_21:
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Well unless your shop has done another of these builds as a twin your PV map is only a starting point. If you vary AFR too much ( rich or lean) the auto tune will not work very well ...Some time not at all in that given area,, until changes are made.
The map that was loaded is from a 117" cr, cams, TB, injectors, heads & pipe are really close, if not identical. Surely close enough for start-up / break-in and for the Auto-Tune to do its thing. The bike will have a rev limit of about 5k or so (due to the DD7) until the Maximus is installed.
'Most all of the AFR targets are 13.2 - 13.8 (give or take)
So that shop will warranty engine's if they fail based on a auto tuner?? :nixweiss: with a PC-V tuner on something this large??
Other than detonation, what else is there?
What base cal is in bike??
The ECM is flashed back to stock
seems an odd way to go being that the PC-V and the stock ECM do not even work together well One is speed density the other alpha N.. .. Why would you use this tuner??
'Have some close friends with well over 300k on 5 different H-Ds (all built) with 0 (related) issues...
As this engine is way beyond what this tuner is up to handle. You are removing all of the great features of the stock ecm to tune it half baked with tps vs rpm??
If the (timing of) launch of the Maximus would have coincided better with (the completion of) this Build, we would have gone straight to the Maximus, since my timing was off, we will proceed as outlined in my post #143 and have some real world feed back on these different tuning products / strategies
As for leak down you can check it where you want but without working with the pushrods you can only check at TDC.
Well best of luck with the build and data logging. :2vrolijk_21:
Thanks for the insights!
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Afternoon Update;
The Bike is complete, heat cycled, and test ridden (1X).
Sounds Healthy :bananarock: the motor is quiet so far!
'Have not posted the regular "Updates" because we are having Oil Pressure Issues (fluctuations) that are of concern :nervous:
No "Sumping", Gauge(s) Validated.
'Know that I promised feedback "Good, Bad or Ugly" but to be fair to all involved, I want to see how this "issue" plays out before I post in detail (and I will!)
'Some more "Street Time" tomorrow (as the Tech and the GM are off on Wednesdays)
Ed
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well?? how is it going?? hoping you have some good news soon :nixweiss:
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well?? how is it going?? hoping you have some good news soon :nixweiss:
Finally picked up the bike on Friday 4/25/14, after the Tech had heat cycled, put 50 miles, changed the oil (dino) per S&S/Revolution Performance procedure(s).
'Operating the bike between 2300 and 3300 for 250 miles so far, no more than 30% throttle (if that).
The bike starts instantly hot or cold, (Power Commander V/Auto, The Map(that neither DJ or FM have) supplied by Oasis Cycles is spot on, the Trims are negligible).
The motor is quiet. The Oil Pressure is right where Feuling wants it.
All I can say is WOW! The bike carries effortlessly/revs deceptively quick (like the '06 Z06 Vette), the DD7 shifts like butter! The ratios of the DD7 are perfectly suited to the characteristics of the (T-Man 625s / 10.4-1) 117" motor, (I will wait to >500mi. for more throttle/rpm.)
I forgot to reset the trip odometer at my first fuel stop, to get an accurate tracking of fuel mileage, but will make sure that I do that today.
Everything seems to be playing very well together, the harmonics of the whole bike are definitely there :2vrolijk_21: The Bike is a lot smoother (in the seat, handle bars, floorboards) than I anticipated. Maybe due to the S&S .0005 Crank, the GlidePro Bushings or both?
The temps have been in the 70s, the heat off of the motor seems to be less than anticipated, maybe due to the PolyDyn Coatings on the V&H PowerDual Pipe/Roland Sands Mufflers, Revolution Performance Cylinders, or (probably) that I'm so excited = wishfull thinking on my part?
'At this time (break-in ~ >90mph) the bike doesn't feel stressed in any way, but the whole point of this exercise is durability / longevity in a "Sport Touring" Platform, we'll see, as we get some miles...
For those of you at Thunder Beach, come on out to The Outpost and say Hello!
More later, I 'gotta' Ride :bananarock:
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Evening Update;
875 miles so far. 2nd oil change (dino) at 700, oil looked great (still like honey, not very dark at all). Not one particle of metal on the drain plug or the CPS. No oil or residue in the intake or the air filter. 'Pulled the dipstick about every 100 miles and the level has not changed. No leaks or weeping.
Around 1700 miles will change to synthetic
Dipstick temps range from 215-252 (mostly around 220 ~ only once at 270 at very similar conditions ~ putting through the 'hood to the barn in the evenings, pull in the garage, idle for 15-20 seconds, shut down ~ makes me wonder how accurate the DS Gauge is :nixweiss:
Starts instantly hot or cold, always idles around 975-1k.
Checked fuel mileage 2x 32mpg & 36mpg
Motor, Primary, Clutch (stock clutch w/ SE HD Spring p/n 37951-98, flushed/bled), DD7, sound / feel good, pipes sound Great :bananarock:
'Curious to see how much service life that I can 'milk' out of the Clutch?
"The Ball & Chain" and I agree (she mentioned it first) there is a lot less ("noticed") heat from the right (exhaust) side. The PolyDyn Coatings seem to be really making a difference in our comfort level.
'Have been shifting through the middle gears, about 40-50% throttle at 4k on occasion. Tech told me to start twisting it some more :2vrolijk_21:.
'Will contact FuelMoto tomorrow for some PC-V / Auto "class101" with the laptop plugged in, to check things out and make adjustments if need be.
Very happy with the way everything is playing so well together, 'cannot imagine a better selection of components for the way I use this bike.
'Still waiting to see how Feuling accepts responsibility for the oil pressure (Cam Plate) issue before I post in detail...
Oh, 'almost forgot to mention... This thing is a Freakin' BLAST :bananarock:
I can see a road trip in the not too distant future...
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:2vrolijk_21:
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Sounds like Ed is all smiles! :huepfenjump3:
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Evening Update; I know its been a while...but not everyplace on our travels had convenient Wi-Fi.
25,460 mi. on bike
5k mi. on Engine, DD7, GlidePro, <'14 Compensator
Changed engine oil from Dino to Syn3 at 2,800 on engine (2,100 on oil) not using any oil, very little film at bottom of a/c backing plate, no drips, leaks or weeping. Oil Pressure(s) remain consistent. Tech (at Lowcountry HD in Charleston) said oil looked a little dirty.
Engine is purring, starts instantly cold or hot, after initial warm-up at 12-1,400 RPM, it settles in around 1k on its own. The PC-V / Auto and the Map from Oasis has been flawless, only requiring "zeroing" the 0% column AFR Targets to stabilize the idle at cold start.
Not one ping.
Oil Temp (on the LCD dipstick) at shutdown still varying from the 230s to the high 250s with no particular rhyme or reason... Considering the Ward's Fans and fans for the oil cooler Any input on these are appreciated
'Have accepted trims on the PC-V / Auto 2 more times, Mileage has been improving, the last 12 -14 tanks of fuel, 2-up loaded (80+ to 95+ MPH) from Destin to Charleston, to Maggie Valley to Lawrenceburg, KY, Madison, IN and back, were all 39+ MPG, with a best of 42+. All is still quiet except in the morning, 1 lifter ticks for about 6-10 seconds on the initial start-up (I guess we'll try a pushrod adjustment unless somebody offers another suggestion??). Still has that "effortless power everywhere" feel ~ very little throttle opening required to run ahead of any traffic. 'Have only had it to 100% throttle in 4th and 5th several times and it's pulling well, shifting at only 5,200, there is plenty more ~ the top gear roll-on (2-up/loaded) from 80 is a freakin' blast from 3k to 4k like right now!!! burying the Speedo quickly :bananarock:
Trying not to fry the (stock / SE heavy duty spring) Clutch, which is working perfectly as far as engagement, no chatter, no noise, no slip. :nervous:
If / when it does slip, is there anything out there that will give stock (or near stock) engagement feel, no chatter, and hold the 117 on a "Sport Touring" bike? No burnouts, but I would like to be able to go through the gears at the limiter on occasion. :nixweiss:
The DD7 is Super Sweet Shifting up or down, just a little notch going up into 7th 'Am going to change the Redline early for the first change or two, 'will have the boys at Oasis check it out as I'm heading up that way soon. 'Still really diggin' the way the ratios play with the T-Man 625s :2vrolijk_21:
Still have to get the Ventilator backing plate machined to match the SE 58 mm TB.
Thinking about a catch can (even though no oil is coming out of the a/c even at sustained Interstate speeds) Does anybody that has run one (or installed on customer bike(s)) have any input, for or against?
Only one issue with the bike so far (other than the feuling Cam Plate during the Build); Running around John's Island, SC on roads that I have "eluded their ass" in my youth, the 2nd time to full throttle in 4th gear the bike pulling to 5k then shuts down like it blew a fuse, (I'm chitting bricks at this point, praying that it's not anything mechanical :nervous:) bike would turn over, but no start, checked fuses, then on the hook to Lowcountry H-D (LCHD really took care of me ~ way above and beyond! ~ 'will post in the Vendor section soon)
'Ended up being the check ball hanging up in the fuel tank fitting ~ go figure :nixweiss: 'replaced tank fitting and fuel line, good to go so far (over 2k into the Smokies, and KY) :nervous:
'Replaced the front tire (19k on tire) with 2/32nds left, even wear, no issues. 'Really enjoying the Handling / Ride Quality of the H-D Premium Suspension / GlidePro (f&r). The GlidePro and going up to 41psi in the rear has actually reversed the scalloping in the rear tire :nixweiss:
The front end seems to get very light in the first 5 gears, even with the rear shocks set pretty firm ~ geez, I wonder what could be causing that... :confused5:
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All is still quiet except in the morning, 1 lifter ticks for about 6-10 seconds on the initial start-up (I guess we'll try a pushrod adjustment unless somebody offers another suggestion??).
If your lifter just started developing a tick after many, many quiet miles, a pushrod adjustment will likely accomplish nothing. If you can identify which lifter (stethoscope), I'd suggest you pull it, take it apart, clean the internals, put it back together and reinstall it. Good chance you have a piece of crud or sludge (carbon sludge?) in the check valve seat. If so, cleaning it will eliminate your tick. :2vrolijk_21:
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If your lifter just started developing a tick after many, many quiet miles, a pushrod adjustment will likely accomplish nothing. If you can identify which lifter (stethoscope), I'd suggest you pull it, take it apart, clean the internals, put it back together and reinstall it. Good chance you have a piece of crud or sludge (carbon sludge?) in the check valve seat. If so, cleaning it will eliminate your tick. :2vrolijk_21:
sadunbar,
The S&S Premiums were totally quiet for a little over 2k (if that makes any difference?)
'Will try to isolate and clean...
Any thoughts on the catch can/puke tank?
Thanks!
Ed
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sadunbar,
The S&S Premiums were totally quiet for a little over 2k (if that makes any difference?)
'Will try to isolate and clean...
Any thoughts on the catch can/puke tank?
Thanks!
Ed
My memory is Neal had a pretty good catch can/puke tank setup on his previous bike. (At least I think it was Neal...) If it was him, he probably has a picture or two to share....
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Considering the Ward's Fans and fans for the oil cooler Any input on these are appreciated
Check out the Big Sky oil cooler fans http://bigskyfan.tripod.com/id10.html. Works great in stop-n-go/parade situations, easy to install, and great price. I have these plus the Wards Part Werks cylinder head fans since I tour a lot in the summer heat plus tow a trailer. If I knew then what I know now, and could only do one, it would be the oil cooler fans. Just make sure you have room for them between the oil cooler and voltage regulator.
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Ed, sure glad all is going well with the 117. Sure sounds like she is a runner
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Good to hear from you & that it's running well. About the oil in the AC I get a drop or two after I've been riding hard (4k+rpm) but if I ride it sanely never see any
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Ed, sure glad all is going well with the 117. Sure sounds like she is a runner
David, as you know from this thread, I wasn't chasing #s or wanting a real hot rod, just a durable, reliable, Sport Touring platform with longevity as the primary goal. We seem to have "backed in" to more emphasis on the "Sport" than we originally set out to do, only time (miles) will tell if we achieve our primary goal...
The drivetrain appears to be pretty efficient with the almost 40 MPG average (better than Stage I or Stage III) from the first real road trip (2-up/loaded) with this combination.
Considering "all the cooks stirring this pot" and reading some of the horror stories of "botched Builds" I feel very fortunate (so far :nervous:) that we have had no other drama than the Feuling Cam Plate during final assembly (even though it's been a while, I still have hopes that Feuling is eventually going to do the right thing...)
I can only attribute the lack of drama to the Pride and Professionalism of the Vendors involved.
Many thanks to;
Heritage Cycles Harley Davidson of Ft. Walton Beach, FL.
Oasis Cycles of Brandon, MS
T-Man Performance of Kernersville, NC (congrats on your new Record :2vrolijk_21:)
And the great folks on the CVO Forum for steering me in the right direction!
David, When is your Granite S&S 124 going to be delivered ???
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Good to hear from you & that it's running well. About the oil in the AC I get a drop or two after I've been riding hard (4k+rpm) but if I ride it sanely never see any
fastfreddy!
So far I haven't got one drop yet...(hope I didn't jinx myself by saying this :nervous:)
'Gotta love those T-Man 625s :2vrolijk_21:
How do you like the Bandit Clutch compared to the stock Clutch??? (As far as, engagement feel, noise, chattering, etc...)
Thanks,
Ed
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fastfreddy!
So far I haven't got one drop yet...(hope I didn't jinx myself by saying this :nervous:)
'Gotta love those T-Man 625s :2vrolijk_21:
How do you like the Bandit Clutch compared to the stock Clutch??? (As far as, engagement feel, noise, chattering, etc...)
Thanks,
Ed
mine had that AS clutch, i like it, it works alot better than the AS and no issues at all with it. better feel no chatter maybe a lill noise on decell but im use to it now :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: . if you remember mine got a ruff start, it was on two different dynos and was ready for an oil change in first few days of life & thats probly why i get drip or two of oil. in 7k miles ive added maybe a 1/2 pint :nixweiss: fuel mileage aint as good as your reporting but the thing runs geat
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mine had that AS clutch, i like it, it works alot better than the AS and no issues at all with it. better feel no chatter maybe a lill noise on decell but im use to it now :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: . if you remember mine got a ruff start, it was on two different dynos and was ready for an oil change in first few days of life & thats probly why i get drip or two of oil. in 7k miles ive added maybe a 1/2 pint :nixweiss: fuel mileage aint as good as your reporting but the thing runs geat
A 1/2 pint, or for that matter 1/2 quart, in 7k really isn't using any oil :nixweiss:
Yea, I was really surprised at the mileage. Maybe it's the DD7???
Thanks for the info on the clutch, it sounds like the Bandit is acting better for you, than the Barnett is acting for my friend w/ the S&S 124. He tells me that the Barnett is a bit noisy when starting out.
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David, When is your Granite S&S 124 going to be delivered ???
Ed, I am hoping by the time the weather turns to cold to ride that I get one ordered and installed. Now if I can just stop life from dipping its hand in the bike money jar.
David
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Ed, I am hoping by the time the weather turns to cold to ride that I get one ordered and installed. Now if I can just stop life from dipping its hand in the bike money jar.
David
Ed, I am hoping by the time the weather turns to cold to ride that I get one ordered and installed. Now if I can just stop wife from dipping its hand in the bike money jar.
There, fixed it for you. Im just jerkin' yer chain, Dave! Tell the wife I said hello. I hope all is well with you two.
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Ed, I am hoping by the time the weather turns to cold to ride that I get one ordered and installed. Now if I can just stop life from dipping its hand in the bike money jar.
David
You might want to get one with the SE type cases, (without the external oil lines) if it is available in Granite?
I'm sure that we will see a lot more "Builders" going in this direction.
David, I know about the distractions of life, just last Saturday, one of my toilets flooded half of the house... "One of life's little pleasures"
Ed
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Ed, I am hoping by the time the weather turns to cold to ride that I get one ordered and installed. Now if I can just stop wife from dipping its hand in the bike money jar.
There, fixed it for you. Im just jerkin' yer chain, Dave! Tell the wife I said hello. I hope all is well with you two.
It's a tough crowd here sometimes...
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Ed, I am hoping by the time the weather turns to cold to ride that I get one ordered and installed. Now if I can just stop wife from dipping its hand in the bike money jar.
There, fixed it for you. Im just jerkin' yer chain, Dave! Tell the wife I said hello. I hope all is well with you two.
Thank you James for fixing that for me! She is supposed to try and stop by one afternoon and get some Redline for me so you can explain the about the hand in jar while she is there.... :P
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You might want to get one with the SE type cases, (without the external oil lines) if it is available in Granite?
I'm sure that we will see a lot more "Builders" going in this direction.
David, I know about the distractions of life, just last Saturday, one of my toilets flooded half of the house... "One of life's little pleasures"
Ed
Amazing what one flush can screw up!
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You might want to get one with the SE type cases, (without the external oil lines) if it is available in Granite?
Ed
S&S no longer offers their motors with anything cases other than their own. They've also stopped the re-man project for HD.
Thank you James for fixing that for me! She is supposed to try and stop by one afternoon and get some Redline for me so you can explain the about the hand in jar while she is there.... :P
I should be around and have the oil but I think I'll leave it to you to explain your feelings about money. Ive been working so many hours the last thing I need is an ass whippin'. :-X
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Evening Update:
Nothing new to report since the last EU. Everything the same as the last Update :nervous:.
I have a few questions;
1) Should I try the Baker Attitude Manual Primary Chain Adjuster? ( I already have the "latest" version, nib) or since the original adjuster and chain have around 26k on them (shoe already worn in, chain already stretched), should I just have the OE Adjuster welded at the proper tension? 'Looking for reliability / longevity here... Or does anybody know of any riding habits that will preclude the stock auto adjuster from getting "banjo string tight"?
2) Should I have the Ventilator air cleaner backing plate machined to match the 58mm Throttle Body, or should I just resell my Ventilator and buy the Ventilator from H-D that is made for the 58?? Anybody have any idea what the machine work should cost?
As always, thanks for the input!!!
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heat, whatever you do DONT buy the SE manual one, i just pulled it out today, thing makes NOISE!!! put the Hayden auto in going to try it out. heading to Sturgis in the am, the lill putt i took around the neighbor hood it sounded & felt ok will let you know more later.
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heat, whatever you do DONT buy the SE manual one, i just pulled it out today, thing makes NOISE!!! put the Hayden auto in going to try it out. heading to Sturgis in the am, the lill putt i took around the neighbor hood it sounded & felt ok will let you know more later.
fast, thanks for the info, how many miles on the SE? did it make noise off the rip? or after some miles? let us know how you like the Hayden?
We went to Sturgis last year, 'skipping it this year and probably hit it in '15 again.
Have a good time, and come back in one piece :drink:
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Heat that SE piece made noise rite out of the gate put about 150 miles on it but just couldn't take the noise... Sounded like a belt sander, one about to break, got about 600 miles on the Hayden today no issues it's working as they say... Smoother & quieter . Heading to easy rider :2vrolijk_21:
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Afternoon Update;
I posted 7/15/14 about a lifter ticking on cold start for about 6-10 seconds.
For the last 7-8 cold starts, (on the cold starts, I stand on the right side of the bike, bent over with my ear near the right side of the motor and hit the button) all is quiet, no lifter noise whatsoever, 'guess it fixed itself :nervous:, wish they would all do that...
All the rest is as the last Update, no news = good news :2vrolijk_21:
"The Ball & Chain" and I rolled over to Mobile for an awesome (Blues/Southern Rock) concert Wednesday night, came back yesterday, the bike behaved perfectly in the heat.
Any recommendations when to inspect the cam chest as far as routine maintenance for this motor???
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'Plugged the V&H ThrottlePak back in yesterday, (had the TP from when I first got the bike, removed it for a while when we did the SE Stage III Kit, because the SEPST has Throttle Blade Control) feels snappier / more responsive, especially in the midrange, no ill effects... :2vrolijk_21:
The Big Sky Fans & the Ward's Part Works 160* Thermostat arrived yesterday, 'going to install them at the next oil change.
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The Big Sky Fans & the Ward's Part Works 160* Thermostat arrived yesterday, 'going to install them at the next oil change.
Great thread!
Your gonna love the fans and thermostat. ;D
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S&S no longer offers their motors with anything cases other than their own. They've also stopped the re-man project for HD.
I should be around and have the oil but I think I'll leave it to you to explain your feelings about money. Ive been working so many hours the last thing I need is an ass whippin'. :-X
This is not true, you can still get a motor with the SE cases although you have to call for the part number as they would prefer to sell their own cases.
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This is not true, you can still get a motor with the SE cases although you have to call for the part number as they would prefer to sell their own cases.
Well, I guess they lied to me then. Hard to imagine as a dealer but if you say so. At least not for FL's anyway is what they told me.
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A good friend of mine got a S&S 124 crate for his Skunk (it was either June or July of '14) with the SE Cases
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How does he like the motor?
I can't wait for them to unveil the new 144 and larger motors that fit under the frame and enough room to fit you hand.
144 b2 with 2 bolt flanges. Exciting for sure.
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He loves it! ('Has the HC 640s in front of the DD7/Scorpion). 'Coming off of a "full boat" 113" that lasted a little over 35k, before that, the SE Stage III that was in the Skunk when he bought it new, dumped around 16k. ( he averages around 40k / year for the last 6-7 years.)
Like myself (and others) he was satisfied with the performance of the Stage III and was just looking for reliability / durability in a "Sport Touring" platform. We'll know in a year or two if the S&S 124 Crate fits the bill...
As I posted here (and other places); "If I would have known that S&S was coming out with the 124 in Granite, before I reached the point of no return with the 117 Build, I would have definitely gone that route." We did use the S&S 4-3/8 Crank (.0005 installed w/Timken), Premium Lifters, Roller Rockers in the 117.
For me ("Sport Touring"), the 124 Crate has a lot going for it;
1) Well Designed / Thought Out,
2) A good Dealer Network,
3) Warranty, and if you do have any issues, only 1 phone # to call (not a lot of finger pointing by different manufacturers that don't necessarily want to stand behind their products)
IMHO if I was an Indy, I would give the 124 Crate a lot of consideration for my (especially big miles) customers (see #3)
As far as the Monster Motors that S&S is launching, I'm too old for that stuff ~ and the driver's license would have a hard time too :nervous: , "Oh to be young again..."
Peace Out! 'Gotta Ride!
Ed
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I have had one in a touring bike for almost 12 years with very few issues. Definitely recommend them,
However I am not a fan of the new cases with external lines. IMO I would go T2 only if you had the passages for oil machined . Recommend B&D Racing for this. Or use your Hatley stock cases and do the 585 with lower compression.
Quick and fun for touring without the heat.
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How does he like the motor?
I can't wait for them to unveil the new 144 and larger motors that fit under the frame and enough room to fit you hand.
144 b2 with 2 bolt flanges. Exciting for sure.
Im told the stock frame may not hold up to the power those new motors are supposed to be when they come out and aside from warranty, I cant think of any reason other than the frame not handling it well as to why only 10.5:1 compression. I know youre making 150 HP on your 124 but a guy that rides with you says hes making about 128 HP and you cant get away from him. I dunno, maybe its just the rumor mill but if your making 150 HP with a smaller baffle than everyone else and less compression than everyone else making that number, I'd like to see the power it makes on a calibrated dyno with a strain gauge that takes an actual measurement of power like a torque wrench does rather than one that uses the same formula or algorithm that simply computes a number based on how fast your bike will accelerate an 800 lb drum. Speaking of that, do you think once an 800 lb drum gets spinning its going to show a 2 lb torque or HP loss with that much mass and inertia spinning? How can that algorithm be the same on a worn out 50cc dirt bike with a tire almost flat as a Boss Hoss bike with NOS and a 300mm tire and a mag wheel with a tire thats over inflated? For the new engine, I know the bore is already been established but Im told they are still testing to establish the stroke and it looks like its going to be a 142, not a 144. At least thats what my S&S rep said but like you said, he probably lied to me. ::) We just finished up a 124 with the T2 cases here that is getting a 2-3 page magazine feature. The new cases really are much beefier than the SE cases without question.
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I never said they lied to you, you said that I just said you could get SE case built 124's and that I was told the new motor was 144 and or bigger.
One frame holds a 155 hp and the other 167 so someone saying the frame won't hold is a side bar to be discussed. Normally if it will break I will find away. So far hasn't been the case for me in 5 different bikes granted all were pre 07 bikes and FL's. Can't speak first hand as the highest I have seen was in an 08 126 at 155, but don't know the guy or if anything broke, but they did have to cut the frame and bring up the backbone for that G^2 motor.
I will prolly try the new motor but with passages cut into it vs external oil lines as that scares me to break a belt and cut that hose and oil down my rear tire.
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It sounds like S&S had to find a way to get around the patented oil system on the TC engine.
What would be wrong with using SS braided hoses or possibly a guard over the hoses to protect them from the chance a broken belt would take them out. Because the hoses are actually in underneath and behind the tranny pulley, would it even be possible for a broken belt to strike the hoses?
The next alternative is to change to chain drive with a 530 EK ZZZ chain, and forget about breakage! fwiw twinotter
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I don't know if there is enough room for the braided hoses there to support it safely?
It would have to be measured but IMO why mess with it as I'd rather have it internally in
The other side of the quandary is the warranty or Screaming eagle cases and warranty on the motor.
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My friend with the Skunk has the SE Cases and Warranty from S&S
As far as overpowering the frame, some upgrade suspension and it should be good to go.
I know the '09 is just a low compression 117, but with the rest of the bike dialed in (Suspension, GlidePro Bushings, Aerodynamics), it's not running out of bike, it's running out of road, pulling hard past the pin in top gear.
Go to chain if you're going to beat on it (not for me, but to each his own)
BTW, Does anybody know what the actual (mathematical or GPS) speed is at 4k in top gear (1:1) on the '09 SERG with stock tires / gearing ???
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Well, you said my statement was "not true" which in my mind would be a nicer way of saying that I am lying or ignorant of what is and isnt available from S&S. In conversation with both, my S&S rep and the sales line at S&S and (Jen) there are no more FL T124's available with SE cases. That's what the parts numbers in the S&S system show and that also what my S&S rep told me. Jen, one of the sales people at the S&S facility even double checked with higher ups before telling me what I've understood to be the facts from 3 different S&S employees. As an S&S dealer and currently having prices cheaper than anyone in the industry on S&S parts, I would think they would be telling me correct information regarding their products and availability. But, maybe you're more connected than I am.
I have the SE cases in my personal 2012 RGC. IMO and in my experience in installing these motors using both types of cases, I can understand wanting to keep the internal oil lines. However, if you do plan to bump compression up, especially on the newer engine, I would prefer the S&S cases. They are MUCH beefier and I am currently uploading a series of 4 videos to YouTube of drilling. tapping and installing the external line kit. After trimming the lines and installing everything nicely, I think the external oil line concerns are being taken from a mountain into a molehill. We considered doing braided stainless lines for the one we just finished that will be featured in the magazine but in the end because they are out of sight and after trimming and securing the lines correctly, the customer felt there was no need for braided stainless lines and I didnt disagree. If a customer wanted braided stainless, Id be more than happy to install them instead of the S&S external oil line kit. We will also be posting a lot of pictures and the videos on our shop Facebook page very soon. So far, the 4 part video series of drilling and tapping the oil line kit provided by S&S has parts 2 and 4 uploaded to YouTube. Parts 1 and 3 will be up shortly.
As another poster mentioned, the likelihood of the oil lines getting caught in the belt, I think the chances are much smaller than say... buying a new 2014 or 2015 HD and finding the crank run-out is less than .003". I dont know if thats a good perspective but its just what popped in my mind as I type this.
As for chain drive, and as from shat Im told the new bigger motor is going to be at in terms of static compression (I am not allowed to discuss that at this point) there is MORE THAN PLENTY of room to increase compression on it and when you starting talking about the kind of power these new motors can put out in stock form, never mind if you put the compression up a couple of 2 whole points of where some motors are on pump gas these days with good tunes in them, I dont think the SE cases would be my choice of the two options... if it were an option. I just see the SE cases holding up as well. If you have not seen the T2 cases in person, they are MUCH beefier. No if, and's or buts about it. Not to mention at the level of power these motors are putting out, (even the T124 with anything more than stock compression or having the heads worked over) a belt for the final drive is not even an option if you want to twist the grip on these or launch one with a hot sticky tire with 12 PSI of air in it at 4000 RPM's. The new motor, especially with the narrow belt of the later model wide tire bikes... a belt drive really isn't even an option IMO unless you drive it the same way you drive a stock bike and if thats the case, why even buy one of these motors? Would it be to post the biggest dyno sheet? Maybe have the dyno sheet blown up and laminated or even framed?
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Well, you said my statement was "not true" which in my mind would be a nicer way of saying that I am lying or ignorant of what is and isnt available from S&S. In conversation with both, my S&S rep and the sales line at S&S and (Jen) there are no more FL T124's available with SE cases. That's what the parts numbers in the S&S system show and that also what my S&S rep told me. Jen, one of the sales people at the S&S facility even double checked with higher ups before telling me what I've understood to be the facts from 3 different S&S employees. As an S&S dealer and currently having prices cheaper than anyone in the industry on S&S parts, I would think they would be telling me correct information regarding their products and availability. But, maybe you're more connected than I am.
I have the SE cases in my personal 2012 RGC. IMO and in my experience in installing these motors using both types of cases, I can understand wanting to keep the internal oil lines. However, if you do plan to bump compression up, especially on the newer engine, I would prefer the S&S cases. They are MUCH beefier and I am currently uploading a series of 4 videos to YouTube of drilling. tapping and installing the external line kit. After trimming the lines and installing everything nicely, I think the external oil line concerns are being taken from a mountain into a molehill. We considered doing braided stainless lines for the one we just finished that will be featured in the magazine but in the end because they are out of sight and after trimming and securing the lines correctly, the customer felt there was no need for braided stainless lines and I didnt disagree. If a customer wanted braided stainless, Id be more than happy to install them instead of the S&S external oil line kit. We will also be posting a lot of pictures and the videos on our shop Facebook page very soon. So far, the 4 part video series of drilling and tapping the oil line kit provided by S&S has parts 2 and 4 uploaded to YouTube. Parts 1 and 3 will be up shortly.
As another poster mentioned, the likelihood of the oil lines getting caught in the belt, I think the chances are much smaller than say... buying a new 2014 or 2015 HD and finding the crank run-out is less than .003". I dont know if thats a good perspective but its just what popped in my mind as I type this.
As for chain drive, and as from shat Im told the new bigger motor is going to be at in terms of static compression (I am not allowed to discuss that at this point) there is MORE THAN PLENTY of room to increase compression on it and when you starting talking about the kind of power these new motors can put out in stock form, never mind if you put the compression up a couple of 2 whole points of where some motors are on pump gas these days with good tunes in them, I dont think the SE cases would be my choice of the two options... if it were an option. I just see the SE cases holding up as well. If you have not seen the T2 cases in person, they are MUCH beefier. No if, and's or buts about it. Not to mention at the level of power these motors are putting out, (even the T124 with anything more than stock compression or having the heads worked over) a belt for the final drive is not even an option if you want to twist the grip on these or launch one with a hot sticky tire with 12 PSI of air in it at 4000 RPM's. The new motor, especially with the narrow belt of the later model wide tire bikes... a belt drive really isn't even an option IMO unless you drive it the same way you drive a stock bike and if thats the case, why even buy one of these motors? Would it be to post the biggest dyno sheet? Maybe have the dyno sheet blown up and laminated or even framed?
Maybe my friend with the Skunk got one of the last 124s available with the SE Cases? I don't know? I for one, would never go from a belt to a chain on any of my bikes, especially the 2 that I Tour on. 'Just not into that much performance anymore, with age, my riding enjoyment has evolved over the years... (I do have fond memories of the Built GPz 1100 though, ~ it was the king of its day :pepper:)
As Posted at the beginning of this Thread, longevity in a "Sport Touring" Drivetrain was the primary focus. I'm sure that there are others with similar goals, not caring about dyno#s, launching at stoplights, or drag racing when we are on the other side of the Continent from our Homes... With all of the drama that I have had out of the 110, the 124 Crate looks to fit that bill in stock form, with a bit more than the MoCo offerings... 'Heck, I'm still milking the stock clutch (SE Spring), the A/C Backing plate is not bored out to the 58mm TB, the rev-limit is still at 5400 and I am happy as a clam. 'Hopefully I will make it to Oasis on the way to Maggie Valley to have the backing plate bored, fittings installed for a catch can, and the rev-limiter extended.
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Maybe my friend with the Skunk got one of the last 124s available with the SE Cases? I don't know? I for one, would never go from a belt to a chain on any of my bikes, especially the 2 that I Tour on. 'Just not into that much performance anymore, with age, my riding enjoyment has evolved over the years... (I do have fond memories of the Built GPz 1100 though, ~ it was the king of its day :pepper:)
As Posted at the beginning of this Thread, longevity in a "Sport Touring" Drivetrain was the primary focus. I'm sure that there are others with similar goals, not caring about dyno#s, launching at stoplights, or drag racing when we are on the other side of the Continent from our Homes... With all of the drama that I have had out of the 110, the 124 Crate looks to fit that bill in stock form, with a bit more than the MoCo offerings... 'Heck, I'm still milking the stock clutch (SE Spring), the A/C Backing plate is not bored out to the 58mm TB, the rev-limit is still at 5400 and I am happy as a clam. 'Hopefully I will make it to Oasis on the way to Maggie Valley to have the backing plate bored, fittings installed for a catch can, and the rev-limiter extended.
Flaheatwave,
They are still available and if you were to order one today they will ship it on 9/30 per S&S. It is available in HC and LC models and in both Twin Cam A and B motors.
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Flaheatwave,
They are still available and if you were to order one today they will ship it on 9/30 per S&S. It is available in HC and LC models and in both Twin Cam A and B motors.
'Appreciate the info, but I'm going to (try to) wear out the 117 first :bananarock: as it only has < 7k on it so far
Very happy with the 117! The T-Man 625s & CVO Street Performer Heads are spot-on for me, The Revolution Performance Cylinders are not using any oil between changes (changing around 3k after break-in), the motor is quiet (cold start or hot run), the PC-V/Auto is doing its job ~ starting / running fine everywhere, delivering 35-37MPG around town or "Thumping The Pines", and 40MPG 2-up/Loaded at 80++ on the Slab. I just have to put some finishing touches on the package;
Install the Big Sky Fans
Install the Ward's 160* Thermostat
Machine the Ventilator Backing Plate to match the SE 58mm TB and Vent the Breathers to Ground/Catch Can
Inspect the Primary Chain Tension(r) and if it's tight, Install the Baker Attitude Adjuster, if it's not, keep running the OE for awhile?
Get the Cruise Control to work in lower gears than 7th (DD7)
'Pretty sure the '09 has the Original Battery, so it's probably time for a new one :nervous:
Any suggestions???
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I don't see mention of the lifters, or tapered or stronger pushrods. Have you considred the air cleaner change? While the ventilator is nice it doesn't breath as well as some other choices. I used the agitator air cleaner blk/chrome with the chrome back plate they use the same air filter so its just getting the larger 58mm backing plate. I believe Stu has also done this.
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I don't see mention of the lifters, or tapered or stronger pushrods. Have you considred the air cleaner change? While the ventilator is nice it doesn't breath as well as some other choices. I used the agitator air cleaner blk/chrome with the chrome back plate they use the same air filter so its just getting the larger 58mm backing plate. I believe Stu has also done this.
The S&S Premium Lifters and SE Adjustable Push Rods were installed during the Build.
'Just like the way the Ventilator looks and already have a K&N in it. The Ventilator has a 58mm backing Plate available for it (around $70-$80). I'm hoping that the machine work will be on a "buddy deal" and we're going to drill and tap for the Breather Vents, so I'm probably going to stick with it for awhile (drat! you have me thinking about an Agitator now...)
Thanks for the positive input!
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Afternoon Update;
'Just got back from Maggie Valley last night, a Great Trip, visited with some old friends, met some new friends. What an awesome group of individuals!!!
About 8,300 on the Build,
Changed all 3 fluids before the trip, Syn3, Formula+, Redline Shockproof, all looked good.
Had my Tech inspect the Primary with the thought of installing the Baker Manual Adjuster, told him if the chain was tight, we would try the Baker, if it wasn't we would let the OE ride. He said the tension was right in spec, not tight at all, so we stayed with OE. (The original chain probably has all the stretch out of it, and I am altering my habits slightly ~ minimizing de-acceleration until the bike is up to full operating temp) The <14 Compensator (the version before the newest one ~ installed during the Build) has been working as new, no noise or drama at any time.
Had a low speed squeak that was driving me crazy, and the week before MV found that the GlidePro Front Motor Mount had separated (installed at the Build) and was causing the Heatshield of the V&H PowerDuals to rub on the Floorboard Bracket. I contacted Jake and explained the issue and that I was on a short fuse since we already had reservations at MV. He expedited an "updated" set of Front & Rear Mounts (rears are fine so far) and a check for 1/2 of the labor (I just asked him to split it with me?) Due to I really like the way the GlidePro works for me (have them in the '05 SEEG also) and the Excellent Customer Service, I would use GlidePro again in a heartbeat :2vrolijk_21:
Installed the Big Sky Fans on the OE Oil Cooler (just before the trip). The installation was straightforward, just move the Voltage Regulator out of the way, mount the Fans, run the wire to the Aux Plug under the seat, run them off of the switch on the dash. Every time I checked the temp on the dipstick at shutdown (all conditions ~ Interstate / Mountain Twisties) the Gauge read 242-243.
Mileage on the trip was 40 on the Interstate, 37-39 in the Mountains, 2-up/loaded, with a best of 43.9 from MV to South of Atlanta (down hill ~ extra weight from all the good eats in MV!)
The 117/DD7 has been acting exactly the same as reported earlier, the Stock Clutch / SE Spring also working fine ~ no news is good news :nervous:
'Am in process of acquiring components for a Catch Can set-up.
'Had the original Battery checked before this trip, it checked ok, but I think I will try a Deka from Battery Mart. Any feedback is welcomed.
Anybody have any recommendations when to inspect the Cam Chest (preventative)???
Or any other recommendations???
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Not as good as they were according to some:
http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php/topic,76751.0.html
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Not as good as they were according to some:
http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php/topic,76751.0.html
After reading the thread, it seems that the original battery in the '09 is one of the "new style" (if Eastern has made any changes to the HD/Deka mc batteries) and it's lasted 6 years...
I'm just looking for a cost effective alternative to the Harley prices...
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Afternoon Update; 11,400 on the Build now.
Went to the Mountains again, the Lake Lure area, by way of St. Augustine, rolling solo with my Bud on his 124/DD7 Skunk (that thing's a friggin' Rocket on top end!) Then took "The Ball & Chain" to Biketoberfest for a few days... 44mpg solo and strollin', 35-37 in the Mtns. or town, 43 2-up / loaded cruising across the FL back roads to and from Daytona.
Bike running as before, all's quiet as it's ever been if not more so... Still moves / behaves / starts as before.
Had my Dealer install a new battery when the original was 6 years old to the day.
'Checked / accepted the trims on the PC-V / Auto, only a couple of "2s", one "7" (might be reversion at 2400 / light throttle??) and readjusted the AutoTune down from 50% to 20%, will run it at 20% for a little while, and if the trims are the same as the last time (or smaller) then I will adjust down to <10%. The bike has always been starting / running, in all conditions, the same as before (perfect to me) but it will allow a better "margin" if the A/T was to ever get corrupted.
'Lost track of the miles and went a little over 5k :oops: on this oil change. The bike had used about a quart, the LED dipstick wasn't registering that low, 'gotta get off my lazy butt and check it properly from now on. We changed to Amsoil / K&N filter at my Bud's house in St Augustine, still on the exact same dipstick line after 750 mi.
I'm really liking the way the Big Sky Fans have stabilized the Temps! 'Have the BSF on the Auxiliary Switch, turn them on after a couple of warm-up miles, and leave 'em on until the motor is shut down. The Temps used to be all over the place 240-280 (Dipstick Gauge), now the Temps check at 242-244 under all conditions.
'Noticed a small weep line all the way across the Engine / Transmission joint, on the top, right behind the rear cylinder, will clean it tomorrow, keep an eye on it, see where the oil is actually coming from. No weeping or drama anywhere else.
'Still haven't got off my butt and installed the catch can. 'Not getting any drip when I put in <4 qts, 'Going with (2)1/4" lines instead of 3/8", should be big enough. 'Will do soon...
Asked Scott at the S&S display about their recommendations for Premium Lifter inspections after telling him that we're running the S&S Crank, Premium Lifters, & Roller Rockers, he said 25 maybe 30k miles. I also questioned him about their thoughts on the common lifter failures on the late model HDs, and he told me "valve spring pressures". Scott asked what springs I was running, and I told him whatever beehive springs T-Man put in for his 625s, Scott said "AV&V at 175lbs closed, you're good to go". It was also good to know that if I ever wanted to change from the Revolution Performance 4.125 Cylinders, the S&S Kit would drop right in...
'Have to replace the hose clamps on the heat shields of the V&H PowerDuals, a couple of them are repeatedly loosening up after a few thousand miles, so I may as well change them all...
After 25k on the Harley Premium Front and Rear Suspension, the ride is as smooth and stable as ever.
Rear tire scalloping is returning >:( tire has 6/32nds left, will make sure that we do a good bearing inspection as the bike should have around 40k then, or we will replace as a preventative measure after making sure that the new bearings have plenty of grease in them. When I asked the guy at the Michelin display about Commander IIs for the '09 he said; "The 19 front is coming soon, I haven't heard anything about the 18s front or rear". :( I also asked how they determine when to produce a certain tire? He said that they use registration data.
As always, any suggestions are welcome :2vrolijk_21:
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Seems to be performing well! :drink:
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HEAT, good to hear its all working well for you!! BUT you gota stop telling me how good your fuel mileage is, lol my mileage kinda sux next to your reports? mine is hanging in there tough, other than compensator & went back to the stock chain tensioner. thinking about a different pipe and an other dyno tune... if i dont trade, been trying to put a deal together on a 15 RGU :nixweiss:
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HEAT, good to hear its all working well for you!! BUT you gota stop telling me how good your fuel mileage is, lol my mileage kinda sux next to your reports? mine is hanging in there tough, other than compensator & went back to the stock chain tensioner. thinking about a different pipe and an other dyno tune... if i dont trade, been trying to put a deal together on a 15 RGU :nixweiss:
FAST, I know, I've been surprised at the #s myself! Filling the tank the same way, checking the mileage every fuel stop, is one way I'm monitoring Engine / Tune condition. When we bore the backing plate to match the SE 58mm, install the Lockout, and set the Limiter to 6200, I suspect that the mileage will drop a bit, at least for awhile LOL!!
I feel that the way the DD7 is playing so well with the 625s is contributing to the efficiency. That and the 117 requires relatively small throttle openings to stay ahead of any traffic (except my Bud's 124/DD7 Skunk :nervous: ~ that thing's a friggin' Rocket on top!!)
Are you at 110 ci ?
What tensioner were you running?
Everybody that has the FullSac seems to be very happy, what pipe are you thinking about?
You have a sweet bike! With the #s you're making, a '15 seems to be a bit of a step back :nixweiss:
Keep us Posted...
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HEAT, its still @110 inch, the cyl.s were only cleaned up .005 over. im happy with the fullsac just thinking about a 2 into 1 and maybe a better TB, im still running the stock TB with a Tman clean up. like most always thinking it could be better if i just do this or that...its a sad case of more money than brains...for now , lol
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Afternoon Update;
A little over 12k on the Build, ('been putting more miles on the '05 SEEG (still my favorite motorcycle!!) recently, as the ESP expires soon and want to show any potential problems before expiration).
All is well (as noted before) with the Yellow Cruise Missile, except
the Redline Shockproof has developed a sudden leak that appears to be coming from the transmission output shaft (behind the pulley). I noticed a dime size spot last week that appeared to be dripping off of the inner primary, near the drain plug, 'got under the bike (on side stand) with a flash light and a mirror, couldn't really see the origin of the leak, pushed the bike back in the garage, and it sat for a few more days, then I noticed a dollar bill sized puddle, 'got back under the bike with the light and mirror and it is evidently coming from behind the pulley and dripping onto the belt on it's way to the inner primary :(
The DD7 Kit came with all new seals, as those of you know that have been following this thread the in service date for the Build was 4/14, the leak developed all of a sudden?
My school of thought is that if the seals were improperly installed, it would have leaked from day one (or very shortly thereafter)???
Two questions...
1) What could cause the leak to suddenly develop aroung 12k ??
2) Will the Redline (or any other tranny oil for that matter) degrade / cause a premature failure / significantly shorten the service life of the belt??
The original Belt has 32.5k on it.
As Always, any, and all help is greatly appreciated!!
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Afternoon Update;
Output shaft seal leak repaired, just the seal going bad, the bearings and everything else looked good.
Tech said not to worry about oil on the belt causing premature degradation.
Will get the bike back next week (waiting on the Redline / Shockproof).
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Afternoon Update;
Output shaft seal leak repaired, just the seal going bad, the bearings and everything else looked good.
Tech said not to worry about oil on the belt causing premature degradation.
Will get the bike back next week (waiting on the Redline / Shockproof).
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Afternoon Update;
Only 14.2k on the Build (been riding the '05 a good bit this winter). All is well as previously posted.
"The Ball & Chain" and I took the '09 for a little counterclockwise ride around Florida to The Keys and back last month. The bike performed flawlessly, used little to no oil since the last change.
'Finally got off my butt and ordered the Jaz Mini Catch Can, (from what I can tell, Jegs has the best price) I am going to run 2)1/4" hoses from the Ventilator to the Catch Can mounted (low) on the left front downtube. I know some are running 3/8" hoses, I just figured that 1/4 would be big enough since the breather tubes in the intake are aprox. 3/16"...
'Thinking of enhancing the Clutch, (not really slipping, but I want to explore some of the yet untapped potential of the drivetrain :bananarock:) A lot of folks are running and recommend the VPCs, but I am also considering just a heavier Spring (currently running the SE HD 380 lbs Spring) something like a 410 or 420 lbs Spring, I feel the stiffer lever pull will not be an issue for me. I just want something that will allow me to ride aggressive from time to time, and (most importantly) play well with the Hydraulic Clutch over the long haul... Running HD Formula+ in the Primary.
Any ideas?? Pros and Cons??
Thanks as always!
In the 70s here today, 'gotta Ride...
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Afternoon Update; 15,700 on the Build
"The Ball & Chain and I just got back from Daytona, weather was great!
We took Major Tom and Rob May for a little "private tour" of the Speedway... :oops:
Bike running fine as previously posted! MPG, oil consumption, remain the same :bananarock:
Except;
The shift shaft (front of the primary) stripped out (35k on the bike). 'Was able to pull over at an exit and fix it without banging the gears or slipping the clutch :nervous:. Since it was the start of BikeWeek, I had the folks at Destination Daytona replace the shaft, lever and fasteners, my karma was great as there was no line at the Service Dept. :2vrolijk_21: I had the tools to do it, we were only at BikeWeek for a week, my :drink: time was limited, and it was about time for an oil change, so...
The friggin' compensator is starting to act up (15k) >:(. sometimes sneezing on a hot restart, sometimes a little noise until warmed up.
The Comp is not the newest Harley edition, the one just before the "14".
I'll probably try the new Baker Compensator, as I have been meaning to get up to Oasis anyway...
'Stopped by the Baker Display (they were set up only a few feet from my favorite Beer Babe at DD ::)), told them how much I liked the DD7, and mentioned how it has always been a little notchy going into 7th, (doesn't bother me at all, I just wondered if they all do that?) James said no and told me to check a measurement on an adjustment nut? I figured Mark at Oasis would know?(gave me the specs) and said if it was out of spec then to set it right, if the measurement was in spec then they would send me a new DD7.
To say the least, I am very impressed with that kind of Customer Service :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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Ride on, Ed! It's a beautiful bike!
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Fla In response to your clutch I had the heavy spring in my 09 117 and had problems with it.Hard to find neutral and creeping in first. Changed to a Rivera Primo clutch and all is well.No problems with aggressive riding.It holds the power no slipping.
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Bandit clutch units are a great option and have been a mainstay here for many years. :2vrolijk_21:
Scott
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Afternoon Update;
It's been almost 2 months since last Update, only 17k on the Build now. ('Been Riding The :cherry:)
Baby got some new shoes!
Emerald Coast Harley in Ft. Walton was (is?) running a tire sale, 2 OE Dunlops $408. OTD. :2vrolijk_21: The rear had 18k on it, 3/32nds, wearing the "Florida stripe", little to no scalloping, maybe thanks to The GlidePro, and 41psi? The front was wearing fine, only about 8k, but at this price, I wanted to get F&R in sync, since no ESP anymore. 'Asked my Tech (Sam did all the assembly on this Build) to take a good look at all the Wheel Bearings (36k). Sam said all the bearings were good as new (maybe these had grease from the Factory? :nervous:), recommended changing the rear pads (18k) 'said the pads had a bit left, but may as well do them now.
'Turned out I was being paranoid about the Compensator in the last Update, it only sneezed 3 times on hot restart at BikeWeek (Maybe the Atlantic air over in Daytona? :nixweiss:), and has been perfect since. 'Asked Sam to take an extra listen for any noises, after a hot restart, post test ride, he said all was fine...
"The Ball & Chain" and I got caught in heavy traffic, riding with some Buds, at Thunder Beach, I was very pleased how the Build handled the heat :2vrolijk_21: . While the other bikes (stock bikes +3 CVOs) around us were obviously overheating, the 117 didn't act / sound any different than it ever has, in any other conditions. The lower 1st Gear of the DD7 earned its keep in the stop & go! (the Clutch say, me like). Speaking of Clutch, I've heard nothing but good feedback on the Alto Plates, so we'll get around to trying them soon...
'Finally got all the components for the Ventilator Breather Catch Can (mini Jaz), going (2) 1/4" hoses to the Can mounted on the left frame downtube. If anybody thinks that 1/4" is not big enough, Please let me know? All suggestions are welcome!
Fuel Mileage, Oil Consumption / Temp, Weeps, Leaks, Clutch, DD7, etc... along with everything else with the bike, are consistent as reported previously. (No news is good news!)
:bananarock:
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Runnin' hard, Ed! :2vrolijk_21:
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Heat, good to hear all is well, about the same up here just waiting for monsoon season to get over. Got my fuel mileage Deal straitened out, all I can say it's hard to find good help/tuners, I'm ready for tires too wish some one around here would have sale like you dealer has, priced some out $550 plus tax ect ect
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Heat, good to hear all is well, about the same up here just waiting for monsoon season to get over. Got my fuel mileage Deal straitened out, all I can say it's hard to find good help/tuners, I'm ready for tires too wish some one around here would have sale like you dealer has, priced some out $550 plus tax ect ect
fast,
'Glad to hear you got your MPG straightened out :2vrolijk_21: Sometimes Dealers will run the sales unannounced, all one can do is call around, and hopefully get lucky...
Yea, I'm lucky to have Sam close by, he did / does an Outstanding Job on the mechanical / maintenance aspects of this Build! But he's busy at the Dealership, doing what he does, and can't compete with a Top Tier Tuner that specializes... Sam's the type of guy, that given the time to focus, he could be as good as anybody out there :2vrolijk_21:
I took that into consideration when selecting the PC-V/Auto, as my nearest Top Tier Tuner is Oasis Cycles 300mi, Doc is 400+... I wanted to make sure that all the Components we selected were "playing as planned" and not making 600-800mi. round trips, if (Component) changes were required...
While the PC-V/Auto (Oasis Map) has been perfect / drama free, so far, I'm still considering the Maximus, if for no other reason than real time monitoring of engine parameters on my "Infotainment System" (iPhone5 on a Kury Techmount, Bluetooth to the HK LMAO). Although I am concerned about trying to fix something that really isn't broke. :nervous:
Peace Out, gotta replace a couple of toilets this afternoon...
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chit eh?
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chit eh?
Yea, "Her Highness" wants some new Thrones...
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As they do mate
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"If anybody thinks that 1/4" is not big enough, Please let me know? All suggestions are welcome!"
Big motors huff more stuff, I'd go 3/8".
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Agree with Ridgerunr, I'd go bigger than 1/4"
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Rob's Dyno Service in Gardner, Mass, had a carbed, 124" RK on his drum about a week or so ago, that pushed 152 ft/lbs, sae.
In spite of his efforts, the fuel was spot-on as he said, even though the bored/Thunderjetted G carb had never been tuned. :D
Scott
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Evening Update, 20k mi. on the Build; I know it's been a while, but we have been spending time in / around the water trying to beat the summer heat.
I was playing with my new USB Borescope, it's a sweet little unit-HiDef camera, 6 LEDs, and the camera is mounted on the end of a wand with a plunger-similar to mechanic's fingers, that allows the camera to rotate up to 180* look all the way around the cylinder, and up at the cylinder heads.
'Looked at the Revolution Performance Nikasil Cylinder / Piston Kit (using no oil, well maybe 1 "X" on the dipstick between 5k oil changes :nervous:) 'Saw the usual amount of carbon in a good running HD, no degradation of the Nikasil Plating whatsoever, all the crosshatch was well defined, saw some vertical "heat?" marks evenly spaced around the Cylinders, along the studs, every bit of crosshatch was well defined-no "smearing" in the "heat?" marks. Since it's not using any oil I wasn't too concerned with the marks, and felt better when I described them to Sam (final assembly on this Build) and he told me, "I've never seen a Harley without 'em"...
The T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads looked fine too, no signs of leaking seats or hot spots.
This past June & July we rode in the Heat / Monsoons to KY, IN & TN for a few weeks.
The bike was flawless as before until I ran 3 cans of Seafoam (mixed 1 oz / gal. per Seafoam recommendation) through the gas tank. >4k mi. on the oil change from Bike Week at the time. On our way to the barn, after a full day of 100* heat / monsoons we decided to spend the night about 150 miles from home. The bike sounded fine when shut down for the night. The next morning the bike fired right up and had an S&S Premium Lifter making a racket for about 10 seconds or so (you know that 10 seconds seems like an eternity :nervous: :nervous:) before it pumped up. It had plenty of oil, the Feuling Pump / Plate had plenty of pressure, but the oil was the darkest (carbon black) I'd ever seen it and seemed pretty thin, which I attribute to the 3 cans of Seafoam doing its job (maybe too good, I won't use that much Seafoam at one time anymore, maybe 1-2 tanks just before an oil change), also I am going drop the oil change intervals closer to 4k mi. rather than closer to 5k mi.. Once the Lifter pumped up, all was quiet cruising / hot restarts for the remainder of the day...
After sitting for a month or so, I start the bike and the Lifter racket is there, I shut the bike off immediately. 'Figure I should change the oil, 'pull the spark plugs and hit the starter a few times to build oil pressure, reinstall the plugs, fire the bike (all quiet) to bring up to operating temp, changed oil / filter with Mobil1 / M1 Filter (30% off sale at PeP Boys :2vrolijk_21:, the M1 Filters are made by Champion Labs, same as HD Filters) all is quiet as before. 2 days later fire the bike, all quiet. The next day my Bud with the S&S 124HC / DD7 Skunk and I fly (a lot of triple digits :nervous:) the bikes 300 mi. to Oasis Cycles in Brandon, MS. Runs great, all quiet.
The next morning the S&S Premium Lifter taps 3 times... To be continued...
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Evening Update, 20,300 on the build;
The primary reason for the ride to Oasis was to inspect the Cam Chest (I'd planned on inspecting around 20-25k since the engine was built), and a few other things that I contemplated earlier in this Thread.
The inspection revealed that the Fueling Pump / Plate, T-Man 625 Cams, Zipper's Dual Hydraulic Tensioners, Torrington Cam Bearings, S&S Premium Lifters, SE Adjustable Pushrods, all looked great, as new really :2vrolijk_21: The Shoes on the Zipper's Tensioners showing very slight wear on the surfaces that the links ride (could barely feel with a fingernail, more of a mark than anything, the center of the chain was a ways from touching) the remainder of the components looked the same as out of the box, nary a witness mark anywhere :2vrolijk_21:.
The S&S Crank appears to have shifted :nervous: from .0005 to .0007 I guess it's still within spec, so we'll let it ride :coolblue:
So while I was wasting $$ on the inspection, and all the components looked so good that I will up the inspection interval up to 30 or 40k more miles (in absence of any drama-but then again if there is drama, it's not an inspection, we're going in to fix something lol) Due to my previous post, I figured that we would throw a fresh set of S&S Premium Lifters in while we were in there (save on labor), so when I walked over to ask Mark to put in a new set of S&S Lifters (on my dime) he happened to be on the phone with Scott from S&S (I could hear both sides of the conversation) basically; "I got a customer on a 117 with a lifter rattle on startup", "Are they Premiums?", "Yep", "Give him a new set", "Labor too?", "Yep"...
Needless to say, I was friggin' amazed that a Harley Aftermarket Company would stand behind their product like S&S does :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:. I've never seen anything close to this level of Customer Service in the Harley world...
S&S Rocks :bananarock:
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Evening Update, 24,000 on the Build;
At 20,300 'finally did some things I 'been ponderin' on... So there is roughly 3,700 on these mods.
Vented the Breathers (stock Ventilator) to ground, used 2) 1/8NPTx1/4" barbs, 2) 1/4" fuel lines routed around the front near the oil filter, then inside the frame, dumping just aft of the primary. Tapped the breather holes in the backing plate, set screws and Loctite. 'Haven't hooked up the Jaz Mini-Catch Can yet (lazy :nixweiss: no spots on the garage floor). I know some suggested 3/8 hose, 'figured since the holes in the backing plate were roughly 3/16, and that I was running 2 separate hoses, no "T" or "Y" that 1/4 would be big enough, it seems to be...
Only regret is not doing sooner...'Guess I'll have to start oiling the K&N Filter again...
Installed the AIM VP-95 Lockout (stock Clutch / SE HD Spring) before we left for Oasis (300mi), took 10 min. The clutch lever feels slightly stiffer >4k, not bothersome at all... Since we was doin' some inspectin' and not able to leave well enough alone :nixweiss: I had Oasis install the Alto Carbonite Clutch Plates, that Alto gave me earlier this year to try out on the CVO Hydraulic Clutch. The Alto stack measured very close to the stock stack. The <'14 Compensator, Chain, stock Auto Adjuster, Basket, Plates, Bearings, etc all looked / felt fine, plenty of service life remaining on all Components (wasting more $ on inspections :nervous:). So back with the SE HD Spring, Formula+ and on to the Dyno Cell...
I know that to give true feedback, I should be evaluating these Clutch Component changes in an orderly fashion, but nobody ever accused me of being the sharpest knife in the drawer...
No slip detected on the latest & greatest DynoJet, no perceptible drag (the bike rolls backwards freely in 1st gear, even revving the engine), range of engagement is right in the middle of lever travel, friction zone is linear ~ perfect ~ the motorcops would love it, no grab, no shudder, no squawk ever, But (why does there always have to be a "But"??) neutral has become evasive :(, either stopped or rolling. I mentioned this to the Engineer at Alto, he sounded like he knew the exact cause of the evasive neutral, told me " A while back, we had a few (Carbonite Kits) get out the door with the Steels not being perfectly straight, I thought that was before I sent yours, nonetheless I will send you a new(er) Kit to try." The new Plates arrived the next day, 'haven't got to try them yet...
And a clatter developed in the Primary after 3k mi. mostly after a cold start, then it goes away, sounds like the AIM Lockup, doesn't really sound like the Compensator :nixweiss:. The "clatter" is just a noise, it doesn't affect the operation or feel of the clutch / bike in any way. Due to phone difficulties, I wasn't able to speak with AIM, 'will try contacting again soon...
New plan of attack; change to the new Alto Plates (since Alto gave them to me, I will evaluate), go back with the SE HD Spring, no AIM lockout, if neutral is evasive, then back to stock plates + add AIM lockout, if neutral is good (w/Alto) but slips, then add AIM Lockout, somewhere in the mix I will try the OE Spring with the AIM Lockout (anybody got an OE Spring laying around??) Once we settle on the Plates to use, playing around with Springs / Lockout is only a 10 min. deal...
I know this sounds like a big ordeal with the clutch and all, but it's really not... Nowhere near the Nightmares I have seen my Buds go through with some of the hi-dollar aftermarket Clutches, and for that matter, the stock Rushmore Clutches too...
The Maximus is coming... To be continued...
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Glad that build is still working great and you are still adding the miles. Maybe the rumors of weeping problems using the base gasket on the o-ring 110 case were just that...rumors.
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Glad that build is still working great and you are still adding the miles. Maybe the rumors of weeping problems using the base gasket on the o-ring 110 case were just that...rumors.
Truth be known, for the first 500mi. there was a little film of oil just behind the rear cylinder, I asked Sam (Tech that did Final Assembly) about it. "It's common just after a motor has been assembled, some residual assembly lube". 'Kept an eye on it, no weeping for the next 15k+, since you brought it up today, I rubbed my finger back there and there was a little film of oil / dirt on my finger :(. If / when I have to pull the Heads / Cylinders, I would think that a little gasket sealant would take care of it...
So it's not just a rumor :nervous:...
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Heat, good things, so you had it on the dyno? what kind of numbers you come up with, just wondering. im also thinking of venting mine...had an issue awhile back, map sensor got coated with oil residue (there is a new part number for sensor also) and the thing was acting up when in the higher elevations. seems to be good now...
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Truth be known, for the first 500mi. there was a little film of oil just behind the rear cylinder, I asked Sam (Tech that did Final Assembly) about it. "It's common just after a motor has been assembled, some residual assembly lube". 'Kept an eye on it, no weeping for the next 15k+, since you brought it up today, I rubbed my finger back there and there was a little film of oil / dirt on my finger :(. If / when I have to pull the Heads / Cylinders, I would think that a little gasket sealant would take care of it...
So it's not just a rumor :nervous:...
I have been considering changing the displacement of my 110 to a LC 124. An option thrown out to me was to have the cases welded up and fly cut and just replace the studs.
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Heat, good things, so you had it on the dyno? what kind of numbers you come up with, just wondering. im also thinking of venting mine...had an issue awhile back, map sensor got coated with oil residue (there is a new part number for sensor also) and the thing was acting up when in the higher elevations. seems to be good now...
Evening Update, 24,000 on the Build; (No new miles since last Update, chasing termites at the house, and only get a day off when it's raining :'( I'm just lucky like that...)
Fast,
In some of my previous posts, I considered changing Tuners from the PC-5 / Auto to the Techno Research Direct Link / Maximus, and a Dyno Tune, 'finally pulled the trigger...
'Don't have the sheets to post right now (Oasis Cycles going to send to me. along with the new Maximus by TechnoResearch)
The verbal I got (standing right there) ; 115hp / 127tq, 120+ ft/lbs from 2,200 to 5,200, start falling off at 5,900, limiter 6,250
Comparison (My Bud's Skunk also with a DD7) on the same Dyno 10min. later, S&S 124HC, HPI 58, Powervision, S&S Pipe / Slip-ons; 120hp/132tq
I was very happy with the PC-5 / Auto except for the limiter being set around 5,500 (something about the '09 ECM) and wanted the cruise control to operate in < 7th gear of the DD7, the power above 5k could use some improvement, and wanted the ability to monitor engine sensors in real time, tweek the Tune, on the phone via Bluetooth (features of the Maximus). So while we were up at Oasis, I asked Mark (he supplied the great running MAP for the PC-5 that neither FuelMoto or DynoJet had) to throw the '09 on their new latest & greatest DynoJet...
When the Tuning session was finished, Mark said to test ride, (couldn't really hammer it due to wet roads), one thing I did notice is that the bike didn't seem to be quite as responsive accelerating in lower throttle positions from 2,400-2,900 from 3rd gear on up as it was with the PC-5, asked Mark to ride when he was hopping off the test ride of my Bud's 124/DD7 Skunk, "This thing is pulling everywhere!". Now don't get me wrong, the bike's not falling on its face here, just doesn't feel as crisp as it did. Mark did mention that the gas mileage was going to drop at 85+, "I know how you guys roll and want to be safe (on the Tune)". Monitoring gas consumption like I do, the mileage at "cruising altitude" (85++) has dropped from 41-42 to 32. around town / playing dropped a little bit from 35-38 to 33-37. Starts instantly cold, at 1150-1200 then idles right down to 1k, hot restart, instantly jumps to 1600-1700 and takes 5-9 seconds to return to idle. As before, no (audible) ping. Now the good part... The bike pulls harder than ever from 5-6k from 3rd gear on up, my Bud with the Skunk and I went ballistic on a few onramps on our way back to Florida, winding out 3rd, 4th, & 5th gears, merging onto I-10 at well over the ton... :nervous: :nervous:
While I expected the #s to be better, the back to back Dyno comparison with the 124HC seems to be right on the money, during our onramp shenanigans, the bikes were literally neck and neck...
Mark said that he could easily rectify the high idle at hot start issue and add a little timing in the 2400-2900 partial throttle ranges, and get back some if not all of the fuel mileage (he strongly recommended against leaning it out too much). He could either install the changes when Oasis sends the Maximus, or email them to me, to install with the Maximus. 'Thought about it, and decided to wait until the Maximus is up and running on the '09, so that cylinder head / oil temps can be monitored real time for some miles, at least an oil change, ('have a Dakota Digital Oil Temp Gauge to install). 'Want to correlate what is seen on the Dyno, with on the road. In my eyes, there are still a couple of variables in play, for the hot start fast idle, waiting to see if the change of seasons has any effect?, for the partial throttle responsiveness, we just removed the V&H Throttle Pak (throttle blade control amplifier), will check the Throttle Blade Control settings with Maximus, or some spark knock was detected on the Dyno that was inaudible to me? (I'm doubtful on the spark knock, as the T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads and Revolution Performance Cylinders / Piston Crowns looked really good through the Borescope, no signs of detonation ~ one thing I regret not doing while the V&H PowerDuals were off for the Cam Chest inspection was scoping the back of the exhaust valves).
From the inception, Mark knew that longevity in a "Sport Touring" Build was the primary target, I'm sure his Tune is inline with this goal. He did mention that the CHTs he was reading on the DynoJet were very much on the low end of what he usually sees... Also that the small baffels of the Roland Sands Design Slip-ons were probably holding down the HP a bit, but helping the TQ to come in sooner...
Unbalanced,
I had no idea that you have anything with a stock displacement :nixweiss:
After meeting you at MV, I figured even your weed eater had a "kit" in it :huepfenlol2:.
When the Cases were bored for the Revolution Performance 4.125 Cylinders about 1/2 of the o-ring groove remained, I don't see why a little Permatex in that area wouldn't prevent any weeping?? Seems like welding / decking the Cases is a bit of overkill? Oh wait...I forgot who I was talking to...Nevermind...LMAO
to be continued...
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Evening Update, 24,000 on the Build; (No new miles since last Update, chasing termites at the house, and only get a day off when it's raining :'( I'm just lucky like that...)
Fast,
In some of my previous posts, I considered changing Tuners from the PC-5 / Auto to the Techno Research Direct Link / Maximus, and a Dyno Tune, 'finally pulled the trigger...
'Don't have the sheets to post right now (Oasis Cycles going to send to me. along with the new Maximus by TechnoResearch)
The verbal I got (standing right there) ; 115hp / 127tq, 120+ ft/lbs from 2,200 to 5,200, start falling off at 5,900, limiter 6,250
Comparison (My Bud's Skunk also with a DD7) on the same Dyno 10min. later, S&S 124HC, HPI 58, Powervision, S&S Pipe / Slip-ons; 120hp/132tq
I was very happy with the PC-5 / Auto except for the limiter being set around 5,500 (something about the '09 ECM) and wanted the cruise control to operate in < 7th gear of the DD7, the power above 5k could use some improvement, and wanted the ability to monitor engine sensors in real time, tweek the Tune, on the phone via Bluetooth (features of the Maximus). So while we were up at Oasis, I asked Mark (he supplied the great running MAP for the PC-5 that neither FuelMoto or DynoJet had) to throw the '09 on their new latest & greatest DynoJet...
When the Tuning session was finished, Mark said to test ride, (couldn't really hammer it due to wet roads), one thing I did notice is that the bike didn't seem to be quite as responsive accelerating in lower throttle positions from 2,400-2,900 from 3rd gear on up as it was with the PC-5, asked Mark to ride when he was hopping off the test ride of my Bud's 124/DD7 Skunk, "This thing is pulling everywhere!". Now don't get me wrong, the bike's not falling on its face here, just doesn't feel as crisp as it did. Mark did mention that the gas mileage was going to drop at 85+, "I know how you guys roll and want to be safe (on the Tune)". Monitoring gas consumption like I do, the mileage at "cruising altitude" (85++) has dropped from 41-42 to 32. around town / playing dropped a little bit from 35-38 to 33-37. Starts instantly cold, at 1150-1200 then idles right down to 1k, hot restart, instantly jumps to 1600-1700 and takes 5-9 seconds to return to idle. As before, no (audible) ping. Now the good part... The bike pulls harder than ever from 5-6k from 3rd gear on up, my Bud with the Skunk and I went ballistic on a few onramps on our way back to Florida, winding out 3rd, 4th, & 5th gears, merging onto I-10 at well over the ton... :nervous: :nervous:
While I expected the #s to be better, the back to back Dyno comparison with the 124HC seems to be right on the money, during our onramp shenanigans, the bikes were literally neck and neck...
Mark said that he could easily rectify the high idle at hot start issue and add a little timing in the 2400-2900 partial throttle ranges, and get back some if not all of the fuel mileage (he strongly recommended against leaning it out too much). He could either install the changes when Oasis sends the Maximus, or email them to me, to install with the Maximus. 'Thought about it, and decided to wait until the Maximus is up and running on the '09, so that cylinder head / oil temps can be monitored real time for some miles, at least an oil change, ('have a Dakota Digital Oil Temp Gauge to install). 'Want to correlate what is seen on the Dyno, with on the road. In my eyes, there are still a couple of variables in play, for the hot start fast idle, waiting to see if the change of seasons has any effect?, for the partial throttle responsiveness, we just removed the V&H Throttle Pak (throttle blade control amplifier), will check the Throttle Blade Control settings with Maximus, or some spark knock was detected on the Dyno that was inaudible to me? (I'm doubtful on the spark knock, as the T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads and Revolution Performance Cylinders / Piston Crowns looked really good through the Borescope, no signs of detonation ~ one thing I regret not doing while the V&H PowerDuals were off for the Cam Chest inspection was scoping the back of the exhaust valves).
From the inception, Mark knew that longevity in a "Sport Touring" Build was the primary target, I'm sure his Tune is inline with this goal. He did mention that the CHTs he was reading on the DynoJet were very much on the low end of what he usually sees... Also that the small baffels of the Roland Sands Design Slip-ons were probably holding down the HP a bit, but helping the TQ to come in sooner...
Unbalanced,
I had no idea that you have anything with a stock displacement :nixweiss:
After meeting you at MV, I figured even your weed eater had a "kit" in it :huepfenlol2:.
When the Cases were bored for the Revolution Performance 4.125 Cylinders about 1/2 of the o-ring groove remained, I don't see why a little Permatex in that area wouldn't prevent any weeping?? Seems like welding / decking the Cases is a bit of overkill? Oh wait...I forgot who I was talking to...Nevermind...LMAO
to be continued...
Hey now dun be picking on me for doing the project the right way.
Around here Stock is a very elusive term and means different things to different folks. Especially true when you throw in the WV entourage. :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
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I believe stock is defined as a mininum of 4 OEM parts still on OEM frame. Jiffy stand, front fender, fuel tank, mirror....yep she's stock!
JW
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I believe stock is defined as a mininum of 4 OEM parts still on OEM frame. Jiffy stand, front fender, fuel tank, mirror....yep she's stock!
JW
:2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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I believe stock is defined as a mininum of 4 OEM parts still on OEM frame. Jiffy stand, front fender, fuel tank, mirror....yep she's stock!
JW
Just don't say it out loud, lol :soapbox:
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I believe stock is defined as a mininum of 4 OEM parts still on OEM frame. Jiffy stand, front fender, fuel tank, mirror....yep she's stock!
JW
Front fender and mirror? Good grief!
(does just one mirror qualify or do you need both?)
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I believe stock is defined as a mininum of 4 OEM parts still on OEM frame. Jiffy stand, front fender, fuel tank, mirror....yep she's stock!
JW
If that's stock, what is superstock?? :nixweiss:
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If that's stock, what is superstock?? :nixweiss:
Superstock allows for reduced weight............ fender can be plastic and no wheel weights. :nervous:
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If that's stock, what is superstock?? :nixweiss:
OEM seat I think
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Front fender and mirror? Good grief!
(does just one mirror qualify or do you need both?)
Damn!! I've already changed both of my mirrors
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Damn!! I've already changed both of my mirrors
Than you sir have a highly modified motosickle :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
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Morning Update; 25,000 mi. on the Build; only about 1,000 mi. since last Update...
'Know it's been a while, still chasing termites (off & on), and putting miles on the :cherry: when I get a chance to ride...
'Got to admit I've been getting a little "drop-in envy" as of late with the new Harley 117 Cylinder Kit, but I'm not losing any sleep over it as "We felt we were using the best Components available at the time" it's good (for us consumers) to see technological advances being made :2vrolijk_21:
The whole bike is still running Great as previously posted! The Revolution Performance Nikasils / T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads not using any oil between 4-5k oil changes... still small weeping at the base gaskets :(
Speaking of oil changes... From the outset, Sam (final assembly) recommended 3k for oil changes, I figured that since the bike was running cool (220s on the HD led dipstick ~ which has crapped out for the 2nd time by the way), low CHTs on the dyno, no short hops, oil still has some clarity at 4+k, that I could get away with 4-5k intervals... Well after running the Build for 25k now, I've decided to shorten the intervals to 3-3.5k now... 'Have used Syn3 (Dealer), Mobil1 V-Twin (me) and Redline 20-60 V-Twin (Oasis) and I've noticed that around 4k the motor seems to be getting louder, change the oil and it quiets right down (to me :nixweiss:) until about 4k mi... Not very scientific, I know, but going to shorten the intervals anyway...
Venting Breathers to the ground; ended up with 2) 1/4" fuel line hoses, great mod, wish I'd done it sooner, still haven't got around to mounting the Mini Jaz Catch Can, (my old fat butt is wanting to put the bike on a lift to fit it up properly). Went to change the Formula+ in the Primary yesterday, so we did a short 5-6 mi. hop to get up to operating temp, letting the bike idle back in the garage, I just noticed 1-2 drops of crystal clear fluid when I was under the bike :2vrolijk_21:
The Clutch; As previously posted, about 5k mi. ago we installed the AIM VPC-95, Alto Carbonite 095750NC Clutch Plates, the SE HD Spring went back in, and 45 oz of HD Formula+ (dry Primary). As previously, the Clutch has been a perfect "motor cop would love it, absolutely no slip Clutch" but (there's always gotta be a "but" :nervous:) for the evasive neutral. In Reply #223, I was ponderin' some different scenarios to get neutral back to where it should be, try this, try that, Alto sent me a new set of Plates, to try (due to possible production issues), haven't got around to that either :nixweiss: . I was getting kind of used to the evasive neutral :-\, but I figured I would change out the Formula+ before riding to Daytona this week... So up to operating temp, drained the "black as sin" Primary Oil, (Carbonite Plates?), just minute fuzz on the drain plug magnet, not enough to cover the magnet halfway, not really fuzz, more of a paste when rubbing between my fingers :2vrolijk_21:. Instead of going back with the Factory recommended 38oz (wet Primary), figured I'd just drop in a QT of Formula+ and give it a go...
I'm amazed! NEUTRAL IS BACK :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: to where it should be, rolling / stopped, 1st or 2nd!! 'Can actually feel the detent in the DD7 again. Less clunk going into 1st (when not holding the lever in 30 seconds or so)
No witness marks on the Primary or Derby Cover from the AIM VP-95...
So with neutral not playing hide 'n seek anymore, I feel this is an ideal / no PMS combination for the CVO juice Clutch :bananarock: Time will tell...
Will continue to keep an ear on the <14 Compensator, to see if the 6OZ less fluid causes any accelerated issues, but (I like this one :2vrolijk_21:) at 25k mi. I'm already way ahead of the game here...
I expect this set-up will get "thoroughly tested" riding down with Major Tom, trying to keep up with some of The Hillbilly Rocket Riders and 2 of my Skunk Buds, 1 w/ S&S 124, and the other w/120ST around BikeWeek :nervous:
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:2vrolijk_21:
David H.
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Morning Update; 25,000 mi. on the Build; only about 1,000 mi. since last Update...
'Know it's been a while, still chasing termites (off & on), and putting miles on the :cherry: when I get a chance to ride...
'Got to admit I've been getting a little "drop-in envy" as of late with the new Harley 117 Cylinder Kit, but I'm not losing any sleep over it as "We felt we were using the best Components available at the time" it's good (for us consumers) to see technological advances being made :2vrolijk_21:
The whole bike is still running Great as previously posted! The Revolution Performance Nikasils / T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads not using any oil between 4-5k oil changes... still small weeping at the base gaskets :(
Speaking of oil changes... From the outset, Sam (final assembly) recommended 3k for oil changes, I figured that since the bike was running cool (220s on the HD led dipstick ~ which has crapped out for the 2nd time by the way), low CHTs on the dyno, no short hops, oil still has some clarity at 4+k, that I could get away with 4-5k intervals... Well after running the Build for 25k now, I've decided to shorten the intervals to 3-3.5k now... 'Have used Syn3 (Dealer), Mobil1 V-Twin (me) and Redline 20-60 V-Twin (Oasis) and I've noticed that around 4k the motor seems to be getting louder, change the oil and it quiets right down (to me :nixweiss:) until about 4k mi... Not very scientific, I know, but going to shorten the intervals anyway...
Venting Breathers to the ground; ended up with 2) 1/4" fuel line hoses, great mod, wish I'd done it sooner, still haven't got around to mounting the Mini Jaz Catch Can, (my old fat butt is wanting to put the bike on a lift to fit it up properly). Went to change the Formula+ in the Primary yesterday, so we did a short 5-6 mi. hop to get up to operating temp, letting the bike idle back in the garage, I just noticed 1-2 drops of crystal clear fluid when I was under the bike :2vrolijk_21:
The Clutch; As previously posted, about 5k mi. ago we installed the AIM VPC-95, Alto Carbonite 095750NC Clutch Plates, the SE HD Spring went back in, and 45 oz of HD Formula+ (dry Primary). As previously, the Clutch has been a perfect "motor cop would love it, absolutely no slip Clutch" but (there's always gotta be a "but" :nervous:) for the evasive neutral. In Reply #223, I was ponderin' some different scenarios to get neutral back to where it should be, try this, try that, Alto sent me a new set of Plates, to try (due to possible production issues), haven't got around to that either :nixweiss: . I was getting kind of used to the evasive neutral :-\, but I figured I would change out the Formula+ before riding to Daytona this week... So up to operating temp, drained the "black as sin" Primary Oil, (Carbonite Plates?), just minute fuzz on the drain plug magnet, not enough to cover the magnet halfway, not really fuzz, more of a paste when rubbing between my fingers :2vrolijk_21:. Instead of going back with the Factory recommended 38oz (wet Primary), figured I'd just drop in a QT of Formula+ and give it a go...
I'm amazed! NEUTRAL IS BACK :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: to where it should be, rolling / stopped, 1st or 2nd!! 'Can actually feel the detent in the DD7 again. Less clunk going into 1st (when not holding the lever in 30 seconds or so)
No witness marks on the Primary or Derby Cover from the AIM VP-95...
So with neutral not playing hide 'n seek anymore, I feel this is an ideal / no PMS combination for the CVO juice Clutch :bananarock: Time will tell...
Will continue to keep an ear on the <14 Compensator, to see if the 6OZ less fluid causes any accelerated issues, but (I like this one :2vrolijk_21:) at 25k mi. I'm already way ahead of the game here...
I expect this set-up will get "thoroughly tested" riding down with Major Tom, trying to keep up with some of The Hillbilly Rocket Riders and 2 of my Skunk Buds, 1 w/ S&S 124, and the other w/120ST around BikeWeek :nervous:
FlaHeatWave,
Since you have a new clutch pack you may consider going away from the SE pressure plate to the aim 380 or 400, I went with the 400 and the Barnett kevlar clutch pack and the same vpc 92t you have (you have the Altos very similiar). Cost is only like 60 bucks for the plate and it is slightly more pressure than the SE as far as pulling in the clutch, but overall seems much better.
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FlaHeatWave,
Since you have a new clutch pack you may consider going away from the SE pressure plate to the aim 380 or 400, I went with the 400 and the Barnett kevlar clutch pack and the same vpc 92t you have (you have the Altos very similiar). Cost is only like 60 bucks for the plate and it is slightly more pressure than the SE as far as pulling in the clutch, but overall seems much better.
This things got plenty of clutch in it as it sets, in fact, I'm thinking about taking some clutch out of it...That's why I asked you if you might have a stock spring laying around. Not so much for lever effort, just maybe some preventive measures for wear & tear on the other components, mostly thinking of less pressure on the hydraulics :nixweiss:
Heck, it's only a 10 minute deal, then I get to go on another test ride :bananarock:
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I will take a look for a stock one for ya. I think i have 1 or 3 lying around just gotta remember where i put em
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Ed,
I found one of the stock springs. You and Major Tom ride safe coming down to Ocala/Daytona.
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Ed,
I found one of the stock springs. You and Major Tom ride safe coming down to Ocala/Daytona.
Great! figgured you might have some :2vrolijk_21:
MT should be rolling in anytime now...
See y'all either tomorrow PM or Thursday :bananarock:
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Evening Update; 27,000 mi. on the Build.
'Just got back from enjoying the epic weather of Daytona BikeWeek, visiting with old friends and meeting some new ones :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Bike ran Great, still not using any oil at all, even trying to keep Harry, Michelle, Pete & John in sight :coolblue:
Fuel mileage was a consistent 37+ MPG every tank for the entire trip, which surprisingly, seems to be 3-4 MPG better than Major Tom's, Tuned / Piped '15 FLTRUSE (on the way down to DBW).
While at BW, I took the opportunity to use my Skunk Bud's (see "onramp shenanigans" in post #228) lift in St Augustine to do a few things;
Swap out the Head Unit to another HK modded by Iron Cross Audio w/ F&R PreAmp Outs, Bluetooth & Rear Aux Port. The HU that I removed is an ICA modded HK with the same mods, worked fine, but (always another BUT :o) the backlight was starting to flicker and it was one of the first ICA internal Bluetooth mods, speaking with Tony at ICA, was told "We have a new, improved Bluetooth, send yours in and I will upgrade yours, no charge." Can't beat that :2vrolijk_21: and I will have a spare if/when the Sound Design craps out in the :cherry:.
A couple more "while we're in there's" (you folks don't know anything about those, do 'ya?);
Take advantage of J&M Audio's Rokker XX upgrade program (swap out Rokkers / XTs to the XXs for $100/pair) the Rokkers / XTs in the Fairing / Vented Lowers, along with the Fairing mounted Rokker 500x4 Amp still sounding great as the day installed (Sturgis '13, 37k mi. ago) so I just figured that I would get a matched set of the "latest and greatest"...
Install the Dakota Digital Oil Temperature Gauge in the stock Air Temp location. I had installed the DD Sending Unit at the last oil change.
Well my first foray R&Ring the RG Fairing / gas tank turned out to be anti- climatic (I'd seen the folks at J&M and my Tech Sam fight the Fairing on 2 different occasions :nervous:) so armed with a couple of tips from my Skunk Bud and his Snap-On Tools I jumped in :nervous:. of course removing the Fairing is a piece of cake, a 1/2 inch wrench, a T-25 and a folded towel to protect the front fender.
The ICA / HK paired / connected much quicker with my Android phone than the first gen unit it replaced. Also the new Bluetooth module has greater range from the bike, allowing the phone to be used more as a remote when "blowing up the parking lot" :coolblue:...
The Rokker XXs were plug n play, a slight adjustment to the Gains, a little more bass. the J&M crew at Destination Daytona was very helpful, only requiring a core deposit since I was doing the work myself, the deposit was promptly refunded when the cores were returned...
The Dakota Digital Oil Temperature Gauge was plug n play, easy to set up, surprisingly accurate / sensitive. When I first powered up the Gauge it read 69* ambient temp, then after about 30 minutes of looming up the wires, the sun crept into the garage, on my final check before installing the Fairing, the gauge read 71*... Since the first gen ICA Bluetooth required / came with, a powered 12v switch to alternate between Bluetooth / Rear Aux (the new ICA Bluetooth switches automatically) I connected the switch (mounted in the left glove box) to the dimming function of the DD Gauge, works pimp, easy to read in bright sunlight, a great match to the red CVO Gauges at night. Due to the accuracy / ease of install / initial quality of the DD Oil Temp Gauge, I have ordered the DD Oil pressure Gauge...
Since I previously witnessed the "Pros" difficulty with installing the Shark Fairing, I gave it some thought (mustered up some courage :nervous: :nervous:) before I attempted it by myself (Skunk Bud was at work), I noticed indentions in the J&M "Sound Foam" that was glued to the Outer Fairing, so I cut out the indentions with a razor knife, and 5 min. later my first RG Fairing install was complete :2vrolijk_21:. One key tip that SB gave me was to have the bike upright (lift or jack).
As Posted previously, I wanted the DD Oil Temp Gauge for data correlation of Oil Temps / Running Conditions... More on that later,
Peace Out, 'Gotta Ride :bananarock:
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Evening Update; 27,000 mi. on the Build.
'Just got back from enjoying the epic weather of Daytona BikeWeek, visiting with old friends and meeting some new ones :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Bike ran Great, still not using any oil at all, even trying to keep Harry, Michelle, Pete & John in sight :coolblue:
Fuel mileage was a consistent 37+ MPG every tank for the entire trip, which surprisingly, was 3-4 MPG better than Major Tom's, Tuned / Piped '15 FLTRUSE (on the way down to DBW).
While at BW, I took the opportunity to use my Skunk Bud's (see "onramp shenanigans" in post #228) lift in St Augustine to do a few things;
Swap out the Head Unit to another HK modded by Iron Cross Audio w/ F&R PreAmp Outs, Bluetooth & Rear Aux Port. The HU that I removed is an ICA modded HK with the same mods, worked fine, but (always another BUT :o) the backlight was starting to flicker and it was one of the first ICA internal Bluetooth mods, speaking with Tony at ICA, was told "We have a new, improved Bluetooth, send yours in and I will upgrade yours, no charge." Can't beat that :2vrolijk_21: and I will have a spare if/when the Sound Design craps out in the :cherry:.
A couple more "while we're in there's" (you folks don't know anything about those, do 'ya?);
Take advantage of J&M Audio's Rokker XX upgrade (swap out Rokkers / XTs to the XXs for $100/pair) the Rokkers / XTs in the Fairing / Vented Lowers, along with the Fairing mounted Rokker 500x4 Amp still sounding great as the day installed (Sturgis '13, 37k mi. ago) so I just figured that I would get a matched set of the "latest and greatest"...
Install the Dakota Digital Oil Temperature Gauge in the Air Temp location. I had installed the DD Sending Unit at the last oil change.
To be continued...
Sure glad all is working well for you Ed. Sounds like the 117 is doing what you hoped it would do. I am just now getting around to getting started on the 113 you originally started to build. Heads are at Sachs now so once they get back I should be close to tearing it down.
David
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Sure glad all is working well for you Ed. Sounds like the 117 is doing what you hoped it would do. I am just now getting around to getting started on the 113 you originally started to build. Heads are at Sachs now so once they get back I should be close to tearing it down.
David
David, it's good to hear that you are finally pulling the trigger, I'm sure that with all your patience and research, your Build will be one of the best out there :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: as you know, I think that the 113 is one of the best combinations out there, all things considered. It would be an asset to this Thread for you to share your component selection and how it turns out.
Yea, John Sachs is 'da Man! It was a true pleasure to meet, get to know, and ride with him. He knows his stuff, takes pride in his craft, no nonsense, and a credit to this Industry. I have to thank Unbalanced for the introduction.
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John is a rare breed that is for sure! A phone call to him for anything is an education and you can help but to like the man. I had a several builders send me to him for heads, and as you as they all said "He's the man". I also got had a real long phone call with Unbalanced the other night and really enjoyed the chat with him.
Hope the Florida weather holds up for you and you can continue to crank the miles on that motor
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Last Update continued... enough about the rest of the bike, let's get back to the drivetrain...
Some observations (after about 1k miles) with the Dakota Digital Oil Temp Gauge;
roughly 60*-75+* ambient temps, with "The Ball & Chain" aboard...
'Intended to go in more detail below, but (another but ???) since the bike presently does not have the ability to monitor CHTs and AFRs in real time, 'will just post some "general" observations for now... My ultimate goal with this exercise will be to attempt to correlate how (much) Running Conditions, Airflow (bike speed), AFRs, CHTs, Throttle Position, Oil Pressure, Gear Selection, RPM etc... affect Oil Temps / CHTs in the real world... Basically how much adjusting AFRs will be practical before too much diminishing returns are incurred... Also what are / how to expand, the real world "sweet spots" for operating / Tuning this "Sport Touring" HD. To correlate what the Dyno Operators are seeing vs the real world...
Oil Temp fluctuates much more than expected (guess I'm more used to the Gauges on liquid cooled auto engines), figured that once Cylinder Head Temps got up there that the Oil Temp would be more stable, definitely not the case... (stock CVO Oil Cooler, Mobil1 VT, HD or K&N filter)
Oil Temp takes around 8-10 miles (easy riding) to reach 200*.
Cruising in the middle gears 2600- 3200, 40-65 MPH, OTs 210*to low to mid 220*s, increase Throttle Positions to around 40 - 60% and OTs relatively stable at 230* or so...
Cruised into a monsoon :nervous: (on the way back from DBW, on HWY 27 between High Springs and Perry) at about 50-60 MPH in one of the middle gears around 2500-2800, OT immediately dropped to 171* and stayed there... A sweet spot for the bike, not so much for us...
Cruising in top gear around 2750 / 70 MPH seeing Oil Temps around 240*-243*, roll on up to 3300 / 90 MPH, Oil Temp drops quickly to around 218*-221* and stays pretty consistent on up past the Ton. (The way this bike is set-up it has always impressed me that it only takes about 25% +- TP to maintain these speeds :nixweiss:) With the Airflow and the Oasis "Safe Tune" 90MPH is a sweet spot.
Pull up to a stop light idling (even after running at speed), OT immediately drops to 204* and stays there until the light changes...
In the little 1st gear stop n go traffic encountered, OT from the low 230*s to a high of 251* mostly 230*s to low 240*s, while in any motion, when stopped and idling, drops immediately to 204*, jumps back up as soon as the clutch is engaged...
Yesterday I did notice a spike in OTs of 261*-263* when cruising in the beach traffic for 1/4 mi or so, never coming to a complete stop or operating in the clutch friction zone, just putting in 1st & 2nd, gears, Throttle Positions <20%, 2000-2700RPM as soon as got to a sustained 3rd gear 2500RPM, the OTs went a stable 230* or so... IMO this might be rectified if AFR could be adjusted by Gear?
Stay Tuned for another "Update of the Update" :coolblue:
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Another Update to the Update, Backtrack to Daytona Bikeweek...
When leaving his home one evening I asked Unbalanced to listen to the bike when I fired it up, with this bike, some noises come and go with no real rhyme or reason :nixweiss: the majority of the time this bike is the quietest TC Drivetrain in existence, just trying to take advantage of a much more knowledgeable set of ears than mine, luck was with me as John Sachs and Scott Hakins of S&S were in attendance :2vrolijk_21: After sitting for 4-5 hours, the bike fired up instantly, one of the 5k mi. S&S Premuim Lifters rattled 3x before it pumped up...shut it down and restarted a couple of times, maybe 2 ticks, rest of the bike is quiet... Unbalanced, John and I agreed that it sounded like one of the rear Lifters, hard to isolate when it only ticks 2-3 times... 'Rode back 50 mi. for the night, next morning fired right up, no tick, no noise at all (other than the Throttle Body "flap")... So I wasn't really concerned much... A day or so later I got a message from Scott to stop by and see him at Destination Daytona... We spoke awhile about the 117, Oils, Temps, Components etc... to pick his brain about possibly changing things up?? Scott was fine with everything... Then fired up the bike,,, flawless, you know the kind of quiet and proper manners exhibited when one was summoned to the Principal's Office :nervous: :nervous: Even though the drivetrain was quiet as a tomb, Scott tells me "I heard that Lifter the other evening and I'll send you a couple, just send me your address"... Can't beat that :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
On the way out from Bikeweek, I stopped by my Skunk Bud's and changed the M1 Engine Oil & Filter & the RedLine in the DD7 to Royal Purple Gear Oil (what SB had on hand), a little more than 3k on the Engine, > than 8k on the Trans, neither drain plug magnet had one speck of anything on it, nada, zip, nuttin'...
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Evening Update; 30k on the Build, 50k on the Bike.
Before "Dragging The Ball & Chain" on the "Eureka Springs Fact Finding Mission" in May, I had Sam (Final Assembly) give the Bike a good once over and change out the rear Glide Pro Bushings, both sides were totally trashed < 20k. Since Glide Pro had warrantied and sent me their "updated" Bushings, i figured i would give the Glide Pro one last try. I really like the ride / handling of the GP when they are good, but if i have another early failure, I'm done, and going back to OE... The front "updated" GP are fine at 25k, so maybe there's hope :nervous:...
Sam did mention that the S&S Lifter rattle was in the rear, and "everything is good, you know the rear tire is scalloping"... Since the Bike was toward 50k of 2-up loaded Sport Touring, i asked Sam to pay particular attention to the Wheel Bearings and the Drive Belt, "I see no reason to change anything out at this time" So the next day I changed the Oil, Mobil1, the Formula+ in the Primary, and off we went...
Bike ran great :2vrolijk_21: no issues except starter grinding 5-6 times in / around Eureka Springs, figured that with almost 30k on the <'14 Compensator (the one before the tray) it's about time, planned on changing it out when i got back, but on the 1k return trip (visiting friends in TN) the starter did not grind 1 time! Didn't sneeze a lick! Reminds me of the Biktoberfest when the Bike sneezed a few times, then only did it a couple of times in 10k, go figure :nixweiss: 'Have always thought that when the Comp is going out that it would grind on a more regular basis?? Anybody got any ideas?? The Comp has always been quiet at idle and shutdown...
Almost thinking that climatic conditions, changes / engine management might have something to do with the grinding, sneezing??? Anybody got any ideas???
The S&S Lifter rattles on startup once in a while, becoming a little more prevalent, some days it doesn't make a sound...
Oil Temp was a high of 249, going through Birmingham with ambient of 95+, mostly in the 230s either running the back roads or on the slab at 85mph...
Oil Pressure a low of 14-15psi heat soaked idle, cruising a steady 50 psi...
Including the Daytona trip, Eureka Springs trip, and some local "Thumpin' the Pines", fuel mileage over the last 6k or so has been a super consistent 38.7 MPG.
Oil Consumption; seemed like it used 1-1/2 "Xs" on the dipstick since the oil change 2,300 miles ago, I'll have to keep a closer eye on it :nervous:
A slight bit of oscillation in some hi-speed, hi-load (90+) sweepers when playing in TN, nothing tricky, but i noticed it... 'Could be the HD Premium Shocks with 45k "easy miles" on them??? or more likely, the pitifully scalloped rear Dunlop >:(. When "The Ball & Chain" was washing the Bike this morning i noticed a slight weeping around the adjustment knob of the HD Premuims... 'Not spending any $ on shocks before baby gets some new shoes, hoping for the Michelin CIIs to become available :coolblue:, in all conditions south of the hi-load sweepers, the bike still maintains excellent manners...
A Happy & Safe 4th to All :bananarock:
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Afternoon Update, no miles since last Post... Ridin' The :cherry:
Since there is 30,000 miles on the Build, I figured that I would play with the $50. USB Borescope and new Snap-On Motorcycle Compression Gauge Set...
The 10k mi. Champion RA8HC Plugs looked ok, the front was a little darker than the rear...
The Pistons have a good bit less carbon buildup then the last time I broke out the Scope, the only thing I regret about venting the Breathers to ground, is that I didn't do it sooner :2vrolijk_21: Cylinders are good, the cross hatch is still well defined, no scoring or smudges of any kind, Valves good, no signs of leakage... The cheapie china Borescope is trick, found a USB to MiniUSB adapter for about $15. and a free APP for the Android phone, so I don't have to use the laptop anymore, works very well, easy to take pics / videos...
A little crud in the Intake, since I vented to ground, guess I'll have to get in the habit of oiling the K&N Filter again :nervous: The Intake Valves / Guides looked good no carbon buildup...
Now for the first use of the Snap-On Compression Gauge, hooked up the (modified- cut off one of the clamps, replaced with a female Spade Connector) remote start button to the Solenoid trigger (green lead) and the Starter +Lead, key off, Throttle Plate propped open... 5-6 compression strokes the gauge stopped moving... and...
238psi CCP on both Cylinders... Can't be right :nervous: :nervous: ain't no way a 10.4 Static is pumping like that with a 41* Intake Close??? Gotta try another gauge...
Anybody got any idea what the CCP should be???
Threw in a new set of plugs gapped at 0.40, started instantly, went for a ride, seemed crisper, all the hot restarts also instant... For less than $5. going to throw in new plugs every 2nd -3rd Oil Change...
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Ed,
How many CC's are the head, which head-gasket did you use, what are the CC's of the pistons? How far in the hole are your pistons? Did you change cranks when you did the build or still 4 3/8?
Here is a sample considering 89cc chambers, 8 cc piston dome volume, .030 HG, 0 deck, TMan 625 and the 237 compression.
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Morning Update;
Figured that I would play with the Snap-On Compression Gauge some more...
Pulled the Plugs on the '05 SEEG, did not pull the A/C (Cable Throttle), hooked up the start button, spun the motor with 3 cranking bursts of about 20 compression strokes each to bring up the oil pressure, checked compression 3x on each Cylinder, 151F & 150R each time...
BTW, the readings were the same whether the Throttle was held open or closed, just took more compression strokes before the needle stopped moving...
Pulled the Plugs on the 117, did not pull A/C, hooked up start button, 3 cranking bursts of about 20 compression strokes each, surely enough for full oil pressure, checked compression 3x on each cylinder... 193F & 191R
Thinking that these #s are more in line with what this combination 10.4 static, T-Man 625s should crank at :nixweiss:
Edit; Just got off the phone with T.R. he told me to expect 190-195 :coolblue: So I'm good with the 193 & 191 ;D
Guess the Gauge just needed to be broken in :nixweiss:
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Ed,
That is good news, still have to wonder what was up with the gauge. Have to do some pondering on that when you get up here.
How many CC's did he say your heads were?
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lifter bleed down is one thing that can cause low readings. It does not matter if you open the blade on a FBW or not it will get there just takes a few more revolutions..
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Ed,
That is good news, still have to wonder what was up with the gauge. Have to do some pondering on that when you get up here.
How many CC's did he say your heads were?
I'll be honest with you, I was so happy to have a proper Gauge reading within range, I forgot to ask :drink:
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Afternoon Update;
The Bike started making a noise soon after the last CCP Check :nervous: :nervous:
Due to time constraints, I threw it into the back of the pick-up to attend the WV GTG...
'Guess that makes me a W.H.O.R.E Member now?? :drink:
Unloaded the Bike and the noise was loud and regular :nervous: :nervous: (was somewhat intermittent before)
"The Ball & Chain" and I rode it 216 miles anyway :nixweiss: the Bike performed flawlessly, delivering 42.5 MPG, Oil Temp / Pressure right on the money but the noise was spoiling the enjoyment... a lot...
The next morning I asked Unbalanced and others to give it a listen on the first start of the day...
What a racket!!! Unbalanced offered his well sorted 131 Pumpkin :pepper: so we were able to enjoy the wonderful riding that Schrader had planned.
Harry, we are eternally indebted to your kindness!!!
Popular consensus was the S&S Premium Lifters :nervous: :nervous:
I remain hopeful that the 30k mi. <'14 Comp is the culprit, a bad comp is likely to be much less costly than a failed lifter... I can't see a lifter making that much noise, and the Bike still run as well as it is???
Tuesday we took the Bike (in the pick-up) to Oasis Cycles in Brandon, MS ("Yes we are building a piano" earlier in this thread) for a look see...
No matter the issue(s) we are going to the S&S TC3 Pump / Plate, even though the Feuling Pump / Plate is giving good Pressure & Temp #s on the Dakota Digital Gauges, I still have a bad taste from the "fools" poor tech support & lack of customer service...
To be continued...
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Fueling pump and plates have been around for some time with out a doubt , I tend to shy away from them as I have had a few issues here and there and strange things at that. I hope you get it sorted out ..
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Ed,
That is good news, still have to wonder what was up with the gauge. Have to do some pondering on that when you get up here.
How many CC's did he say your heads were?
According to his website, the T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads are -0.003 / 101cc :nixweiss:
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Afternoon Update; 50+k on the Bike, 30+k on the Build.
The Excellent Techs at Oasis Cycles have located the noise(s)...
First off, replaced the 30k mile <'14 SE Compensator with the latest SE Comp along with an Outer Primary Cover with the cast in Oil Deflector. Noise significantly reduced, but still some noise... "Comp was pretty beat up"...
'Hopefully the "updated" SE Comp along with the Oil Deflector will have more service life...
Replaced the 10k mile S&S Premium Lifters...As Posted previously, 1 or 2 would tap intermittently at startup... Still some noise...
Inspected the Cam Chest... "All good, Nothing in there that we can attribute the noise to"
'Pulled the T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads...
To be continued...
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Afternoon Update; 52,000 on the Bike 31,000 on the Build.
After pulling the Heads, it was determined that the newest noise was Piston Slap from the 4.125 Wiseco Pistons in the Revolution Performance Nikasil Cylinder Kit. Kinda really surprised me as I did not see any scuffing on the Cylinders when I 'scoped them not long ago (was already starting to make the slap noise)?? With the Cylinders in hand, Oasis told me "No scuffing on either the Cylinders or Pistons... The (Piston) Coating is fully intact"... So I'm scratchin' my head... "How do you have Piston Slap without scuffing???" When measured, the clearance was around .006, opened up from the originally installed .001... Oasis asked me if it was ok to ship the Pistons / Rings / Cylinders to Revolution Performance as Andrew wanted to see them, of course that was ok with me, figured I had nothing to lose...
In the meantime, I wanted to speak with a few of the "gurus" and come to find out that this is not an isolated issue with the 4.125 (and larger) Piston / Ring Packs, no matter who the Manufacturer is, Nikasil or Ductile Iron Cylinders, mostly due to the lack of stability of the tiny Piston Skirts necessitated with Pistons of this size in the TC Engine...
Seems that about 6 months or so after I got the original RP Cylinder Kit, guys like T-Man, RP, Wiseco, and others developed a "fix"... to design a 3mm Oil Ring and Nitride the Oil Rails, thus giving the Piston more stability in the Bore... I was commenting, "1mm don't seem like much :nixweiss:" then Shrader pointed out that it was a 33% difference, 'guess a little can mean a lot...
I was contemplating going with a different Manufacturer's Cylinder Kit, but even the "non Nicasil" folks said they've seen these issues with Cylinders /Pistons of different manufacture, from what I gather the 3mm Oil Ring is the best "fix" at this time...
After evaluating the Nicasil Cylinder Kit, Revolution and Oasis came up with; "We will re-coat the Nicasil Cylinders and supply the updated 3mm Pistons and Ring Packs, the re-coating is on us, you pay for the Pistons and Labor" the Pistons / Rings really weren't that much, I figured they were passed through at cost..
I really appreciate the Customer Service of Andrew at Revolution Performance :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: With almost 30k of trouble free, using no oil out of the original Kit (at the last oil change, the Engine used about 1/3 of a qt. before that nada, zip, zilch) I would not have bitched if RP did nothing for me... The outside of the re-coated Cylinders are as new, in fact I had to ask Andrew if they were new and not re-coated, he affirmed that they were my original cylinders, just re-coated, in one of our conversations, TR mentioned that re-coated "seasoned" Cylinders are preferable to new...
When I dropped the Bike off at Oasis, I mentioned changing out the fueling Pump / Plate to the S&S units, the guys at Oasis went through and checked everything, pressure checked and reinstalled the fueling stuff, disassembled and cleaned the T-Man CVO Street Performer Heads, felt no need to replace anything, "everything looks great!" Cam surfaces, Cam and Primary Tensioner shoes?? "great", I asked if they replaced any lifters? "we cleaned them, they looked fine..."
'Have 1,400 miles since picking the bike up, fuel mileage is very close to before, I know that I've Posted that the bike has been quiet with only an occasional noise with no rhyme or reason, but now the bike has been "Principal's Office" quiet and well mannered, no occasional noises or ticks of any kind, so far...
The short of it... around 30k miles, this Build required Pistons / Rings and a new Compensator, as the miles progress, we will see if the updated Pistons / Rings and the latest & greatest SE Compensator and cast in Oil Deflector have any advantages as to service life...
Thanks again!!
Oasis Cycles of Brandon, MS
Revolution Performance
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Glad they got it sorted out for you Ed.
I like the "Principals Office" quiet reference, never heard that one. I have heard "quiet as a church mouse" I reckon they are about the same....
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DANG that zux, keep me posted up. hope it holds up ;)
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PM sent
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Hi Ed. Sorry to her about the issues. I'm not following the piston slap without any witness marks. Especially with the piston skirt coating being intact. But I just ride em, no wrenching.
Andrew has always worked with me on any issue. My Nikasil are sitting on a shelf waiting for Lexi to eat the Axtell Kit. However Lexi is a whole different animal. Where's that principal's office in case I need to drop her buy?
Ride safe.
JW
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The wiseco piston has a aggressive taper in the design. So you have a very small contact area and when it wears it makes noise with out galling the cylinder.. S&S use's this same type of piston and it will do the very same thing.. Make noise have less than great leak down , but it does not tear things up as if it where too tight and made its own clearance
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Interesting, thank you for the update as my 117in has started using some oil but it has always been noisy. I have the Axtell cylinders and cant remember the what pistons. I have about 28500 on my motor with the same balanced compression check numbers. Gonna have to investigate this option.
Smkblwr
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From what I understand, Revolution Performance / T-Man / Wiseco have increased the thickness of the Coating on the "updated" Pistons as well as the 3mm Oil Rings...
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Well the coating that is used will help but its not a fix and a thicker oil ring will not fix the design on the piston either.. A ring is not for piston stabilization. It may slightly aid in it but over time if the piston is rocking it will only create a issue with oil control . The reason for the thicker ring was piston rock to start with.. Its a band aid at best.. There is a reason that many builders are not found of that wiseco brand of piston.
Bummer if you think about it , but Even S&S did not step back into that area for the 107 piston even though they use it in the 106 kit and wiseco does have a 107 piston that can be bought.. They opted for a CP .
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Not mentioned but Wiseco supplies Rev Perf. with very low tension rings for compatibility with the Nikasil.
With a slipper skirt Wiseco there is very small area to stabilize the piston in the cylinder, about the size of a dime contact when new. Although the rings are not the main item that determines stability they certainly factor in especially with such short narrow skirts. Not a real happy combo.
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Hi Ed. Sorry to her about the issues. I'm not following the piston slap without any witness marks. Especially with the piston skirt coating being intact. But I just ride em, no wrenching.
Andrew has always worked with me on any issue. My Nikasil are sitting on a shelf waiting for Lexi to eat the Axtell Kit. However Lexi is a whole different animal. Where's that principal's office in case I need to drop her buy?
Ride safe.
JW
Jeff, if the exorcism didn't do it, I don't know what will ???
One of the Principal's Offices was the S&S transporters at BikeWeek when we were hearing a Lifter noise, I guess the locations vary as to the Components being scrutinized??? LMAO
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As always, I'm thanking you guys for the feedback. I have some questions, some thoughts, and some theories...
I know...I know... Theory doesn't always translate to the real world...
Those that have followed this Thread know that longevity in a Sport Touring platform was the primary focus, and that I kinda "backed into" the 117 from the 113...
Since then, I have seen / known some folks to have issues with the 4.060 set-ups, mostly heat related (liner too thin??), although (maybe due to earlier Nicasil issues) I don't personally know of any running the Nicasil 4.060 Kit. The 4.060s should have better stability since a larger Skirt can be used???
Could be the reason the MoCo chose to go 4.060 / 4-5/8 in the 120s?? forgoing Increased Piston Speed for the stability of the Larger Skirts?? 'Hard to discern since I've yet to see any reliable reports of 120s with big trouble free miles :nixweiss:...
The reasons (theories) that I chose the 117, is less Piston Speed and less (Piston) deflection angle over the 4-5/8 Crank 124...
I think that we agree that there is a Piston Stability issue with the 4.125 Pistons in the Twin Cam, mostly due to the relatively small Skirts necessitated by the TC Geometry and Pistons of this size?? Yes, the 3mm Oil Rings, Nitrided Oil Rails and thicker Skirt Coatings might seem a "bandaid" to some, but remember that the "powers that be" are dealing with the confines of the TC Geometry... When the dike is leaking... you stick a finger in every hole you can find...
One of the reasons (theories again :nixweiss:) that I liked the Nicasils is that the Piston to Wall Clearance of Forged Pistons is 1/2 of Ductile Iron due to the more compatible expansion rates... 'Figured that less Clearance might add Piston stability??
Note that the Nicasil does not appear to be any issue in my case, and that folks are having the exact same issues with Ductile Iron... The jury is still out on the Steel HD Drop-In Kits as the miles are accumulated??
In the Forums that I am active on I don't see any detailed Postings by folks with bigger miles and 4.125s and what Piston / Ring / Cylinder combinations they are using??? With the Geometry in play, I don't see how the Skirts can be much larger??
I would like to hear what set-ups of this size that folks (honest sources) are getting big(ger) trouble free miles out of???
Gotta finish changing the fluids in the '09... "The Ball & Chain" has informed me that she "Needs some Breeze" :2vrolijk_21:
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Its not so much the length of the skirt but the degree of taper in a given piston. . . Use of 4032 vs 2618 is another way to run a tighter piston to wall spec. As you said you do your best to " plug the leaks"
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Its not so much the length of the skirt but the degree of taper in a given piston. . . Use of 4032 vs 2618 is another way to run a tighter piston to wall spec. As you said you do your best to " plug the leaks"
Just out of curiosity...
Is it 4032 or 4132 ??
Who makes / sells Piston / Ring Packs for this application?
What clearance can be run on a street motor with these Pistons?
What Cylinders are the 4032 / 4132 compatible with??
What potential "downsides" to running this different alloy??
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its 4032 and many use this type of material to build pistons. In fact Wiseco does on the pro tru piston but the 2618 is the main line. But even with the different material the shape of the piston can be just as important.
if you set a 2618 at 2.5 piston to wall many of the 4032 are at 2 thou . each piston will have its own spec . Downside for a V twin none . now on a power adder type build the 2618 is used more often . As it will go into a plastic like stage before it goes terminal where as the 4032 tend to break apart.. Either way its well outside of the usage that 99.5 % of the v twin user will ever see. Also broke is broke its more about not breaking as many parts ..
I have run 4032 and 2618 in my race car. I have broken parts in the past. I ran over 400 worth of NOS on the 4032 and they did fine. the new pistons after the crank let go and damaged some parts are CP 2618.
KB forged pistons Mahle, Diamond all have the 4032 as well many others
In the end myself have never been a over whelming huge fan of Wiseco . Have seen several where the skirt has cracked from the under side. They leave a sharp edge when machined,.. in some case's after the piston could bobble it would crack the skirt on either side of the pin boss up to the oil control ring area.
Ring pack is the issue with the type of cylinder you have. Low tension is what they have to make the coating not streak. I do not use those kits for several reasons. but that is my choice.. I hope that the new kit works well for you and you have no further issues. But if you do maybe do some research and see what is out there from a few places . Provided you can get the same land size the ring pack is a simple swap .
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Steve laid it out well.
One more thing.
Once Nikasil travels in a motor the whole thing needs to be rebuilt. EVERYTHING cleaned including disassembling the crank as that crud gets everywhere.
Good luck and hope it works out for you.
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Yea, I get it... you guys aren't fans of Nicasil... 'Truth be known, I don't have a Nicasil tattoo on my a$$...
If you guys know of any tried and true TC 4.125 Cylinder / Piston / Ring Kits or packages that are proven to give consistently better longevity than I have reported here,,,,,, I'm all ears... please Post a link in this Thread...
As far as the Nicasil traveling through the motor and causing damage... yea, that stuff is harder than times twenty nine, and more abrasive than my ex-wife...
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I buy cylinders from S&S, custom dimensions. I then bore and hone them to the pistons. They seal, run quiet and last.
Pistons to suit the application from either CP, Diamond, or KB (Forged), line2line coating as an option
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Don set up is what many of us have gone to now.. It has gotten to the point that the "kits" are good but in some cases it better to build it your way. S&S cylinder is the top pick however they use wiseco so we are on to a custom piston , and then on to the next custom item.
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Don't take me wrong... I'm not trying to put words in anybody's mouth, correct me if I'm off base here??
There is no 4.125 "Kit" (currently) available that has proven significantly superior longevity to (what I've Posted,,, my personal documented experience) the Nicasils???
The S&S Cylinders seem to be a favorite, albeit as Don has Posted in a Custom Order Configuration, Dimensions, then add Custom Pistons, then taking the Custom Pistons and having them Custom Coated, Line2Line, and Custom (or Special Order) Ring Packs... Nothing anywhere near "off the shelf" here...
While I commend you Builders for trying to figure out a "solution", your criteria for "they last" might be different than mine, and what I've experienced with my set-up... "What we felt were the best Components available at the time" Again, don't get me wrong,,, acquiring reliable data on something like this is pretty much impossible at your (mine too) level,,, so many variables...
Only now are we (publicly) seeing the MoCo do this on scale with the M8s...
S&S certainly has the "horsepower" to try / develop different Cylinder / Piston / Ring combinations yet they continue to support the Wiseco 2mm 2618 Pistons,,, Is cost the only consideration??? Surely there are there other reasons??? Good Luck getting a straight answer on that one,,, :nixweiss:
As a Consumer, I have neither the resources nor the wherewithal to attempt to develop a solution with Custom Components, so I will stick with "off the shelf" Components and try to get the best service life that I can...
In a prior life, I have participated in R&D with OEM Support, but at this stage, I will leave the R&D to folks that know more than I do, to Builders such as yourselves...
As you have both wished me; "Good luck, and hope it works out for you" (and your Customers)...
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I am a bit confused
If you can let us figure out what works and sell you a plug and play product what's the issue?
Cost is higher but not any more than Harleys 117 bolt on kit. Time from order to receiving the product is longer, no biggie, just plan for it.
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I am a bit confused
If you can let us figure out what works and sell you a plug and play product what's the issue?
Cost is higher but not any more than Harleys 117 bolt on kit. Time from order to receiving the product is longer, no biggie, just plan for it.
When you guys "figure out" a plug and play Kit that has been tried and true, proven to have a service life significantly greater than what I'm currently running, 30k miles, 27-28k miles with no Oil Consumption, I will consider a purchase...
As I stated previously;
"In a prior life, I have participated in R&D ("figuring it out") with OEM Support"
"OEM Support" was the Manufacturer supplying all Components, compensation for labor, and Complete Engines / Long Blocks if necessary :nervous:... In exchange for "real world" feedback by an experienced, knowledgeable operator / Tech...
From the outset of this Build (and Thread) I was supplied with Components at cost or less :2vrolijk_21: so I would have difficulty justifying paying you guys more $$ for a yet to be proven product...
On the other hand, I know a guy with a well sorted test mule :coolblue:...
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On the other hand, I know a guy with a well sorted test mule :coolblue:...
When your ready for the "real" test I drop Lexi off> :drink:
JW
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When your ready for the "real" test I drop Lexi off> :drink:
JW
I was looking at your contact information when I was typing ...
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HEAT you just may be working with Lexi's sister... ;)
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HEAT you just may be working with Lexi's sister... ;)
Fast,
Maybe so?? In some respects Lexi is in a class of her own...
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Morning Update; 53,xxx on the Bike, 32,xxx on the Build, 2,700 on the Cylinders, Pistons, Compensator "refresh".
Bike remains quiet and smooth :2vrolijk_21:, 'Changed all 3 Fluids 800 miles ago, nothing on any of the plugs, even the Primary :coolblue: 'Expected to see some metal on the Primary from the new Comp, but there was none... This time I put the Factory recommended 38oz of Formula+ in the Primary (instead of the 32oz previously)... the Alto Carbonite Clutch seems to be ok with the 38oz at this point,,, On the first start of the day, I hold the Clutch Lever in for a moment or two while "The Ball & Chain" hops aboard ...
The Baker DD7 is shifting as smooth and quiet as ever :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
'Picked up a nail on the rear Harley Dunlop :nervous: plugged it no problem, Other than the Cupping,,, the Dunlops have around 18k on them 3/32 Rear, 5/32 Front...
Ordered / Received, the Michelin Commander IIs Price Matched from Revzilla, at $345.54 to the door, can't wait to install, I love the CIIs on the '05. :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: The 180/55/18 for the CVOs is now shipping,,, Finally!!!
Due to the positive feedback from my big mile Buds, I will give the Ride-On Sealent a try... Any feedback on the Ride-On from the folks here would be welcome???
Great Customer Service from Revzilla :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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Are you talking about fix a flat stuff? If so not going to make any friends at your next tire change, and the ship will do bad things corrosion wise to a rim.
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ride on is different and it does not make a mess or corrode anything. I use it in my own bike as well carry a plug kit . . I have had some screws and nails in the tires on trips and did not know until I saw it in the tire. On the trip I will plug the tire. replace when I get back home.
http://www.ride-on.com/motorcycle-formula-mot.html
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Due to the positive feedback from my big mile Buds, I will give the Ride-On Sealent a try... Any feedback on the Ride-On from the folks here would be welcome???
I use Ride-On b/c it doesn't make the mess the others do, and it isn't corrosive. I've used it before any punctures occurred to prevent downtime (never got any punctures on those occasions), and have used it after the nail pick-up (on the cage). It sealed the leak very well.
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:2vrolijk_21: learned somn new
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FlaHeatWave, What was your refresh? I am looking to do a refresh on my 117 and was wondering what you found improved product wise.
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FlaHeatWave, What was your refresh? I am looking to do a refresh on my 117 and was wondering what you found improved product wise.
Post 263; Due to piston slap;
The short of it... around 30k miles, this Build required Pistons / Rings and a new Compensator, as the miles progress, we will see if the updated Pistons / Rings and the latest & greatest SE Compensator and cast in Oil Deflector have any advantages as to service life...
Also Revolution Performance re-coated the Nicasil Cylinders...
The main "improvement" is that Wiseco went to 3mm Nitrided Oil Control Rings in the Revolution Kit.
Since the Pistons / Rings / Cylinders were quiet, used absolutely no oil for 28k miles, it's going to take a while to discern any "improvement" :nixweiss:
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the Alto Carbonite Clutch seems to be ok with the 38oz at this point,,, On the first start of the day, I hold the Clutch Lever in for a minute or two while "The Ball & Chain" hops aboard ...
Ed still no problems with dragging or try to creep after you break the plates loose the first time?
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Post 263; Due to piston slap;
The short of it... around 30k miles, this Build required Pistons / Rings and a new Compensator, as the miles progress, we will see if the updated Pistons / Rings and the latest & greatest SE Compensator and cast in Oil Deflector have any advantages as to service life...
Also Revolution Performance re-coated the Nicasil Cylinders...
The main "improvement" is that Wiseco went to 3mm Nitrided Oil Control Rings in the Revolution Kit.
Since the Pistons / Rings / Cylinders were quiet, used absolutely no oil for 28k miles, it's going to take a while to discern any "improvement" :nixweiss:
I am having the same issue with oil consumption at around the same mileage. good running strong motor, good compression between the cylinders, and I have been following this thread. Thanks for the info on the 3mm rings. cant swing the rebuild right now, hopefully later this spring.
Smkblwr
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Ed still no problems with dragging or try to creep after you break the plates loose the first time?
It never did "creep", even straddling (weight off) the bike, revving the engine...
When first installed Altos >10k ago, had evasive Neutral, trying the 32oz Fluid cured Neutral... It doesn't seem to be abnormally loud going into 1st, if I have the Lever pinned to the Grip, with (sometimes) a blip of the Throttle... Easy Neutral with the factory recommended 38oz now.
Maybe I'm just learning to "drive around" it :nixweiss: I still have some experimenting to do... Wanting to try a lighter Spring than the SE HD (380lb) that is currently installed, maybe the OE CVO Spring ( 340lb) or a stock Spring- 300lb... It's got more than enough Clutch in it, not even thinking about slipping,,, figuring that a lighter Spring would be less stress on the hydraulics / bearings etc... long term, with the added benefit of a lighter Lever pull...
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I am having the same issue with oil consumption at around the same mileage. good running strong motor, good compression between the cylinders, and I have been following this thread. Thanks for the info on the 3mm rings. cant swing the rebuild right now, hopefully later this spring.
Smkblwr
What Cylinders / Pistons are you running?? Any "Piston slap" noise??
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What Cylinders / Pistons are you running?? Any "Piston slap" noise??
According to my build sheet its Axtell Flattop Stoker Pistons pt#800870C and Cylinders pt#292-315. T-Mann stg2 heads, "crank work" H-rods,trued, balanced, welded., 625G cam, Timken inserts, bla bla bla. I haven't noticed any piston slap, scoped the cylinders(looked good), compression and leak down was good. my guys are kinda scratching there heads as to the oil consumption.
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Evening update;
Running around the Panhandle in the low 70s with 100% humidity and it's not raining,,, pop-up showers all around,,, Thumping the Pines :coolblue:
A Quiet & Smooth Rocket :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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Evening update;
Running around the Panhandle in the low 70s with 100% humidity and it's not raining,,, Thumping the Pines :coolblue:
A Quiet &Smooth Rocket :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Nice. Enjoy mate
I am sitting in PNG in mid 90s with 100% humidity, no pines, no Lucille, no thumping.
Cheers Tom
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Evening update;
Running around the Panhandle in the low 70s with 100% humidity and it's not raining,,, Thumping the Pines :coolblue:
A Quiet &Smooth Rocket :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Sure sounds like a wonderful day Ed. Enjoy for all of us. They said we would make mod 50's today, I don't believe that happened. Goes downhill fast after tomorrow, highs in the 30's. All is good though... started tearing bike down this afternoon.
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Sure sounds like a wonderful day Ed. Enjoy for all of us. They said we would make mod 50's today, I don't believe that happened. Goes downhill fast after tomorrow, highs in the 30's. All is good though... started tearing bike down this afternoon.
'Glad to hear that you're finally getting into it. ;D
Very interested to see how it comes out :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Did I see somewhere that you are going with the Kury 24Ds ??
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'Glad to hear that you're finally getting into it. ;D
Very interested to see how it comes out :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Did I see somewhere that you are going with the Kury 24Ds ??
Yes, I think they will work well for what I am after. 117, 24D cams and a set of Sachs heads. Time will tell. With all the cooler weather setting in I should have plenty of time...lol. Now if I lived in Fl.....lol.
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Yes, I think they will work well for what I am after. 117, 24D cams and a set of Sachs heads. Time will tell. With all the cooler weather setting in I should have plenty of time...lol. Now if I lived in Fl.....lol.
Sounds like a torque monster :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
David, Y'all come visit anytime!!!
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Sure hope it turns out that way.
Wife and I been talking a trip to the Keys for a couple years now. Youngest kid at home now has a drivers license so that makes those talks a little more of a reality
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Morning Update; 56,xxx on the Bike, 35,xxx on the Build, 5,700 on the Cylinders, Pistons, Compensator "refresh".
Even though I promised "way back when" to report "Good :bananarock: Bad :'( or Ugly :nervous:" in this Thread, I didn't want to Post on this until we had a "resolution",,,
For the first 1900 miles on the Revolution Performance Cylinders/Pistons/Rings "refresh" there was some evidence of blow-by with the break-in dino Oil and used maybe 1/4-1/3 qt in 1900 miles,,, I operated the Bike as traditional break-in,,, varying RPM, occasionally loading / unloading the rings, <3K RPM or so, occasionally a blast to 4k, no stop & go, etc,,, keeping an eye on Dakota Digital Oil Temp Gauge (mostly in the 230s, no higher than 240)... For a lot of Bikes, this amount of Oil Consumption could be considered normal, or even good,,, but not for this Bike... So I sent Mark at Oasis Cycles some Bore Scope pictures of the Pistons and the CCP of 191-192... He agreed with my assessment (Oil Control Rings) and "let me make some phone calls,,, I'll be seeing them at Cinci, (The Easyriders Trade Show) and I'll get back with you" ... No big deal for me as the Bike is as Strong & Quiet as ever... In the meantime, I changed the Oil to Mobil1 / K&N Filter and continued to ride it...
At first, (before having a "face to face" with Andrew of Revolution Performance) , Mark came back with; "I'll stand behind the Pistons / Rings / Labor, all you have to pay is co$t on S&S Cylinders if you want to go that route, S&S will Warranty their 117 Kit for 2 years, Parts & Labor Nationwide " I figured that was fair as RP Warrantied / Re-Coated the original Nicasils (even though the Nicasil appeared to have no degradation) at no charge to me...
I know this goes against conventional wisdom :nixweiss: but the Blow-by and Oil Consumption seem to have ceased over the next 900 miles... I relayed this to Mark when I dropped the Bike off at Oasis Cycles to have the Michelin Commander IIs Mounted, a Redline Shockproof Leak on the Baker DD7 repaired, and (possible) replacement of the Cylinders / Pistons / Rings...
To be Continued...
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Sure glad your still posting on this Ed, its been a help to me. I killed a half hour the other night looking through 21 pages to find the part number for the Alto clutch part number. Sure glad it was there.
Hope the FL sun is treating you well
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Yellow09Serg,
Running those Altos myself in most of the bikes. I gotta imagine its worse than 5 days before Christmas for you knowing your tune is only around the corner now :) :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :oops: shouldn't be teasing you like that ::) ::)
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Yellow09Serg,
Running those Altos myself in most of the bikes. I gotta imagine its worse than 5 days before Christmas for you knowing your tune is only around the corner now :) :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :oops: shouldn't be teasing you like that ::) ::)
Harry that is so not right...lol. :2vrolijk_09: We are actually scheduled to tune Sunday now, so yes I am bouncing off the walls. Don't tell anyone but it will probably get loaded in the trailer tomorrow afternoon and head to Dallas Saturday.
Between your and Ed's endorsement I guess the Alto's will be my next purchase.
Sorry Ed, didn't mean to drift off in your thread
David
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Harry that is so not right...lol. :2vrolijk_09: We are actually scheduled to tune Sunday now, so yes I am bouncing off the walls. Don't tell anyone but it will probably get loaded in the trailer tomorrow afternoon and head to Dallas Saturday.
Between your and Ed's endorsement I guess the Alto's will be my next purchase.
Sorry Ed, didn't mean to drift off in your thread
David
David,
Since your are Tuning Sunday, I guess it's the "2 Days before Christmas Anticipation" ;D
'Gotta love it :bananarock:
What Clutch set-up are you going to Dyno with??
Are you going to run an AIM VP??
'Just changed from Formula+ to Redline Primary,,, I like it :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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Oh yea Christmas is coming.... :huepfenjump3:
As for the clutch I am stuck with the SE unit that is in there. I hope that it works well enough to get us through the tune. Then I will have to start gathering whatever tools are needed to make a clutch change. Just hoping Sunday goes well
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Oh yea Christmas is coming.... :huepfenjump3:
As for the clutch I am stuck with the SE unit that is in there. I hope that it works well enough to get us through the tune. Then I will have to start gathering whatever tools are needed to make a clutch change. Just hoping Sunday goes well
David,
I highly suggest upgrading the Clutch before the Dyno Tune,,, Clutches will slip on the Dyno way before they slip on the street...
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Ouch....I may be in trouble then
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You should be able to get away with a slightly heavier spring depending on what you have in there now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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damn, hate hearing this... i dont know what i did to get so lucky to not have these issues. hope you get her sorted out soon
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Morning Update; 56,xxx on the Bike, 35,xxx on the Build, 5,700 on the Cylinders, Pistons, Compensator "refresh".
Even though I promised "way back when" to report "Good :bananarock: Bad :'( or Ugly :nervous:" in this Thread, I didn't want to Post on this until we had a "resolution",,,
For the first 1900 miles on the Revolution Performance Cylinders/Pistons/Rings "refresh" there was some evidence of blow-by with the break-in dino Oil and used maybe 1/4-1/3 qt in 1900 miles,,, I operated the Bike as traditional break-in,,, varying RPM, occasionally loading / unloading the rings, <3K RPM or so, occasionally a blast to 4k, no stop & go, etc,,, keeping an eye on Dakota Digital Oil Temp Gauge (mostly in the 230s, no higher than 240)... For a lot of Bikes, this amount of Oil Consumption could be considered normal, or even good,,, but not for this Bike... So I sent Mark at Oasis Cycles some Bore Scope pictures of the Pistons and the CCP of 191-192... He agreed with my assessment (Oil Control Rings) and "let me make some phone calls,,, I'll be seeing them at Cinci, (The Easyriders Trade Show) and I'll get back with you" ... No big deal for me as the Bike is as Strong & Quiet as ever... In the meantime, I changed the Oil to Mobil1 / K&N Filter and continued to ride it...
At first, (before having a "face to face" with Andrew of Revolution Performance) , Mark came back with; "I'll stand behind the Pistons / Rings / Labor, all you have to pay is co$t on S&S Cylinders if you want to go that route, S&S will Warranty their 117 Kit for 2 years, Parts & Labor Nationwide " I figured that was fair as RP Warrantied / Re-Coated the original Nicasils (even though the Nicasil appeared to have no degradation) at no charge to me...
I know this goes against conventional wisdom :nixweiss: but the Blow-by and Oil Consumption seem to have ceased over the next 900 miles... I relayed this to Mark when I dropped the Bike off at Oasis Cycles to have the Michelin Commander IIs Mounted, a Redline Shockproof Leak on the Baker DD7 repaired, and (possible) replacement of the Cylinders / Pistons / Rings...
To be Continued...
Morning Update Part II;
'Got some feedback from Andrew at Revolution Performance regarding the Blow-by / Oil Consumption Issue,,, Basically; "Whatever the Customer wants to do,,, including a Full Refund of Parts (the whole RP Kit) & Labor if he wants to go another route..."
Well, in light of the MoCo's standard reply / policy of "1 Qt. / 1k miles is acceptable BS" I'm thinking this is as good as it gets :2vrolijk_21:
Hats off to Oasis Cycles & Revolution Performance for standing behind their Products / Labor :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Also got some feedback from Oasis Cycles; "The Michelins are on the Bike, the DD7 leak is repaired (Quad Seal)..." " We changed the Oil, put some miles on, and kept an eye on it..." "I agree with you,,, it seems that the Blow-by / Oil Consumption has stopped..." "How do you wish to proceed??"
Over the course of my life, I have witnessed instances of Rings taking a bit longer to seat (even with Proper Clearances, Assembly, Break-in, etc...), not many times,,, but, I have seen it...
"Let's run it as-is, I'll keep an eye on it, and report back..."
'Picked up the Bike from Oasis,,, when paying the Bill, I noticed that there was No Charge for the "diagnostic" Oil Change & Transmission Fluid :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: and rode back to the Sunshine State...
I forgot to mention; A year or so ago, (after giving initial feedback) Alto had sent me a new Set of their Carbonite Plates to try (in case there was an issue with the first Kit that they had sent me)...
To be Continued... 'Have to Ride up to meet some Friends for 2 of the Most Favorite things in my Life... FREE & BARBECUE!!!
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Can't imagine the anticipation yellow bird is going through after driving to Texas having to wait for Christmas I mean his tune tomorrow.
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Have arrived, driven by Ed's shop, ate, drove by Ed's shop, and back to the hotel. Did I mention I drove by Ed's shop?? Yes Harry I am bouncing off the walls.
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Have arrived, driven by Ed's shop, ate, drove by Ed's shop, and back to the hotel. Did I mention I drove by Ed's shop?? Yes Harry I am bouncing off the walls.
Did you get a chance to drive by Ed's shop?
I heard he was real sick and was gonna have to postpone the tune till till Mon or Tuesday. Man that sucks
It's April 1 a little teasing is in order :)
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Man wouldn't that be bad....lol.
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Did you get a chance to drive by Ed's shop?
I heard he was real sick and was gonna have to postpone the tune till till Mon or Tuesday. Man that sucks
It's April 1 a little teasing is in order :)
It's a tough crowd around here,,, I tell ya..
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It's a tough crowd around here,,, I tell ya..
IT IS INDEED!!!! :D
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Morning Update Part II;
I forgot to mention; A year or so ago, (after giving initial feedback) Alto had sent me a new Set of their Carbonite Plates to try (in case there was an issue with the first Kit that they had sent me)...
To be Continued... 'Have to Ride up to meet some Friends for 2 of the Most Favorite things in my Life... FREE & BARBECUE!!!
Morning Update Part III;
Since the Primary had to come off to repair the Leak in the DD7, I figured that we would give the 2nd set of Alto Carbonite Plates try... Oasis used the Factory Recommended Amounts of Redline V-Twin Primary Case Oil instead of the Formula+...
After almost 3k miles on the new Alto Plate Kit,,, The Original Alto Carbonite Plate Kit was fine after >12k, the Plates still looked brand new, will hand them off to my Skunk Bud (S&S 124HC/DD7) for further evaluation,,, The Redline seems to have made a slight difference in reducing the "Hydraulic Stiction" going into 1st Gear,,, While at BikeWeek, I paid particular attention to the other Bikes (Stock to Highly Modified) around me,,, going into 1st and the shifting of the DD7 is as smooth & quiet as any,,, Much Quieter than most... Even though it co$t$ a few $ more, I will continue to use the Redline V-Twin Primary Case Oil, keep an ear on the Latest SE Compensator / Cast in Oil Deflector and report back,,, Only miles will tell...
DD7; The MainShaft Output Seal Leaked at around 14k miles, The Quad Seal Leaked at around 32k (2 days before the last trip to Oasis Cycles), 'Thinking that something might be amiss in the DD7,,, possible (Harley) MDG going out :nervous:,,, Even though the Redline ShockProof always looks / smells new, never any debris on the drain plug,,, I asked Oasis (Oasis is Baker's #1 Outlet for years now) to take a good look?? "We checked everything, and couldn't find anything that would cause the Seals to go out (prematurely)..." Since my DD7 shipped with all the "Updated Harley Seals" and IMHO, Harley Sealing Technology is pretty much state of the art these days ('had to overcome the baking sheets under the new Shovels in the showrooms of the AMF days LOL) I guess that I'm just "Lucky" :nervous:
The 5700 miles (Reply # 308) on the Cylinders, Pistons, Compensator "refresh" included around 2500 miles to/from/around BikeWeek, trying to keep Unbalanced, His Lovely "Wifey", Sneaky Pete, and John Sachs in sight...
It's always a Treasure to hook up and Ride with those Folks!!
(Hillary Rodham Hubbard was a No-Show this year,,, 'Guess he was afraid of more incriminating / compromising photos being "Leaked" ???)
I checked the Oil after every day and happy to report :bananarock: The Blow-by and Oil usage issue seems to have corrected itself,,, I believe that the Bike is using more Oil by me wiping off the Dipstick so often than the Nicasils are using... Add about another 700 miles of "Thumping the Pines" (including playing with the roll-on from 100 to the Pin for several miles :coolblue:) and the Dipstick is down the width of 2 lines,,, not "Xs",,, the lines that "box-in" the "Xs" maybe 1/4 of an "X"... I can live with that :coolblue:
'Noted that when "Playing with the Roll-on" the Dakota Digital Oil Temp & Pressure Gauges were a stable 230* / 41PSI respectively...
'Also Noted that the Florida HBRR Chapter is BY FAR, THE FASTEST CHAPTER,,,
"Resistance is Futile"...
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Between your and Ed's endorsement I guess the Alto's will be my next purchase.
David
There are a 1/2 Dozen Indys that I have contact with,,, they are all now using The Alto Carbonite Kit (along with the AIM VP),,, as their Go-To Hi-Torque Clutch Set-Up...
They've used them all,,, 'Guess they're tired of the PMS / having to remove the "judder springs" / run < optimal amount of ATF to get the "others" to work halfway decently???
The Alto Carbonites,,, Competitively Priced, with a Lifetime Guarantee...
AIM also carries a Lifetime Guarantee on their VPs...
Ed
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Have arrived, driven by Ed's shop, ate, drove by Ed's shop, and back to the hotel. Did I mention I drove by Ed's shop?? Yes Harry I am bouncing off the walls.
David,
Do I hear a Drum Spinning somewhere near Dallas??
'Hope all goes well :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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Yes sir!!! His is basically getting some break in time on it and making adjustment as it loosens up
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Yes sir!!! His is basically getting some break in time on it and making adjustment as it loosens up
:2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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Yes sir!!! His is basically getting some break in time on it and making adjustment as it loosens up
All good stuff, my 117 build goes on the drum in the morn, 9am GMT
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Dave,
Cant wait for your first ride report. Glad you were able to get half your Christmas present :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: Safe travels back home.
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Dave,
Cant wait for your first ride report. Glad you were able to get half your Christmas present :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: Safe travels back home.
Thanks Harry,
I did get home and unloaded and a chance to run down the road and back. Wow is all I can say.
Thank you for all your help and guidance.
I'll post over on the 117 thread and get out of Ed's thread.
Sorry Ed
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Thanks Harry,
I did get home and unloaded and a chance to run down the road and back. Wow is all I can say.
Thank you for all your help and guidance.
I'll post over on the 117 thread and get out of Ed's thread.
Sorry Ed
No Worries Guys,,, I would have chimed in with congrats :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: was out "Thumpin' the Pines"...
'Pleasantly surprised for you that the SE HD Spring held on the Dyno :2vrolijk_21: When I had that set-up, it would slip (in the upper gears) on the street :'(
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Ed, I don't think I am in the same class on torque that your monster is. Didn't added enough compression to get there. We will see once we get on the road with both of us and the trailer loaded down what the clutch will hold. I will probably go ahead and start gathering parts and whatever tools I need in preparation for going the AIM/Alto route. Will say right now I am very happy with the outcome. Now if the rain will clear out so we can take advantage of this day off.. :huepfenjump3:
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'Pleasantly surprised for you that the SE HD Spring held on the Dyno :2vrolijk_21: When I had that set-up, it would slip (in the upper gears) on the street :'(
Got a couple hundred in this afternoon and you are correct Ed, clutch will not hold on the street.
Made a full throttle run though the gears this afternoon 2up and it blew through the clutch going into 5th like it wasn't there. Thinking that is a good problem.
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Got a couple hundred in this afternoon and you are correct Ed, clutch will not hold on the street.
Made a full throttle run though the gears this afternoon 2up and it blew through the clutch going into 5th like it wasn't there. Thinking that is a good problem.
Damn the Luck :bananarock:
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damn, hate hearing this... i dont know what i did to get so lucky to not have these issues. hope you get her sorted out soon
Fast,
Not really too bad (except for the Transmission Leaks,, they happened to be "off sequence" with any Primary Inspections / other Primary Work :nervous:) as the Blow-by and slight Oil Consumption seems to have corrected itself... The rest was New Michelin Commander IIs, The Dunlops lasted for around 18k,,, And getting around to Installing the 2nd set of Alto Carbonite Plates that Alto gave me to try, which were really no different than the 1st Alto Kit, just a QC Check on Alto's part :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
The only real drama with this Build so far has been the Wiseco Piston Slap at 28k and the 2 HD Transmission Seals in the DD7,,, I don't know of many Builds of this caliber that have as many miles with less drama?? There's probably some out there,,, 'Just don't know of many / any???
The DriveTrain is as Smooth & Quiet as ever :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: It's not like I'm pissed / frustrated or anything :coolblue:
72* 35% Humidity, Not A Cloud In The Sky,,, Gotta Ride :bananarock:
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Afternoon Update; 57,xxx on the Bike, 36,xxx on the Build, 5,8xx on the Cylinders, Pistons, Compensator "refresh"
3,682 Miles since Oasis Changed the Oil (RedLine 20-60), & Primary Fluid (RL Primary Case Fluid) Even though the DriveTrain is so Smooth & Quiet that it's Scary :nervous: "The Ball & Chain" and I are preparing for the NMITM so I changed the Oil (Mobil1 20-50 V-Twin 3 QTs / K&N Filter) & Primary (RedLine Primary Case Fluid-1QT)... The Engine has used 1-1/3 "Xs" on the Dipstick,,, the Drain Plug looks Great, so did the old oil,,, no metal,,, not watery feeling at all after a 40 mile warm-up ride... The RL Primary Case Fluid was black as sin (Alto Carbonite Plates) just a small amount of "paste" on the Drain Plug, not enough to cover the magnet halfway...
'Ran a couple of tanks of Chevron Techron Fuel System Cleaner then threw in some Champion RA8HC Plugs gapped .040...
Installed a new Deka from Battery Mart ($99. to the door) the 3 year old HD was getting a hair slow on the first crank of the day,,, Spinnin' like a top now :2vrolijk_21:
'Noticed that the >4year old DayMaker was out on the Right Side :nervous: :nervous: After removing the Fairing,,, found that the Plug had just come loose (I was the last one in there :'( getting happy with the Di-Electric Grease) Since the Plugs do not have a positive latch,, I zip-tied them together,,, just have to remember to have the Dychs in hand the next time in the Fairing...
'Gave me the opportunity to Re-Adjust the Gains on the J&M Rokker 500w Amp,,, The J&M Guys listened to it at BikeWeek, said I was too conservative and should turn up the Gains a little,,,
Sounds mo' betta now :coolblue:
R&Ring the Fairing only took a few mins, everything lined up easy and proper,,, 0 drama,,, 'must be holding my mouth right? need to buy a lottery ticket LOL.
The Michelin CIIs, Balanced first, then Ride-On Sealant installed, are doing fine, to early to tell (3,682mi.) on the cupping...
'Forgot to mention in Previous Updates that Oasis had installed The Drag Sintered Brake Pads 1721-1366 ($33.95) in the Rear,,, No difference in Feel / Performance from OE Pads :2vrolijk_21: Maybe less "Dust"??
It's another one of those days,,, 80* Sunny, 57% Humidity,
Not a Cloud in the Sky,,,
'Gotta Ride :bananarock:
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Afternoon Update; 58,xxx on Bike, 37,xxx on Build, 7,700 on "refresh"
Not many miles since last post, 'been riding the '05 :cherry: a little, otherwise trying to beat the heat...
Bike has been running great :bananarock: all quiet & smooth. We rode to Murphy, NC to view the eclipse, ride the area, and get psyched for the upcoming MVGTG!!
Only issue has been a rear tire blowout (instant deflation) in Murphy, NC :nervous:
The course of events and the looks of the tire has me scratching my head :confused5:
The day before the blowout, I checked the tires and each was +- a pound and a half low (digital gauge), which considering the lower ambient temperatures in the mountains (coming from Fla) I felt was good / normal,,,
'Aired up the 5k mile Michelin Commander IIs that had the recommended amount of Ride-On Sealant installed to the 38F, 42R that I usually run... Both tires looked fine, much less cupping than the OE HD Dunlops at comparable mileage...
We (along with our friends on 3 other HDs) had a great day of riding, sometimes "spirited", heeling the HDs near their limits on occasion...
The '09 SERG was flawless in every respect,,, all was well in our world... Even the Dragon (which we don't frequent very much) was easy, not much traffic... (although 2 were life flighted out an hour or so before we rode through :().
Riding a basically counter clockwise loop, Moonshiner 28, Fontana Dam, Deal's Gap, The Dragon, Tellico Plains, Cherohala Skyway, Robbinsville and back toward Murphy, NC... Nearing Murphy on HWY 129 (4 lane) cruising around 65 mph, while changing lanes we both noticed a subtle shake when crossing the centerline, nothing really alarming, then <5 seconds later we both smelled burning rubber, I immediately slowed and pulled over to the side of the road, when at 20 mph or so it was evident that the tire was riding on the rim. It seemed to be an instantaneous loss of pressure, no noises, bumps or anything that would alert us to the instant loss of air pressure... Just moments earlier I had her leaned over hitting bumps in the road at 15-20 over the posted limit, the Bike was faultless...
We were lucky that the flat happened when & where it did, 2-3 miles from the house, good cell coverage, if we were heeled over in the twisties, it could have been another story :nervous:...
We found Wheeler's Performance in Robbinsville, NC. Wheeler's specializes in sport bikes and according to their website, stocks hundreds of tires, "we do plenty of Harleys,,, no problem..." Wheeler's was very Friendly, Polite and Professional with very Competitive Pricing,,, A great Indy!! Because of the hi-load rated (80) 18s on the SERG, Wheeler's had to order the tire from the NC Parts Unlimited Warehouse and had us on our way with a mounted and balanced Commander II 42 hours later...
Looking at the tire; a single nail hole (no nail) centrally located in the tread, thought it would be a good candidate for a plug until we discovered some slits about an inch or so long inside the tread grooves, near the outside edges...
Over the years I have had 3-4 nails / screws in rear motorcycle tires,,, all were discovered with the nails still in the tires, barely low on air, plugged the tire and rode out the remaining service life,,, no issues. I never had a nail come out on its own?? As far as the slits,,, I'm thinking that the tire split on its own while riding on the rim with all that load on it?? I don't really know?? 'Never saw one like this before,,, this is my first instant deflate on a street (tubeless) tire, have had two other instant deflates (F&R) shredding tubes in dirt bike tires...On the dirt bikes, the greatest loss of control was when the rear blew...
Surprisingly there was no damage at all to the Rear Wheel.
IDK if the Ride-On Sealant played any part in the way this issue played out??
I do know that the Ride-On was properly installed to the Manufacturer's Specifications, and the MCII suffered a complete deflation while riding :nixweiss:
Maybe I'll contact Ride-On and see what they have to say??
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We were lucky that the flat happened when & where it did, 2-3 miles from the house, good cell coverage, if we were heeled over in the twisties, it could have been another story :nervous:...
Glad you got stopped ok, having a sudden total lose of air pressure can be a little unnerving :nervous: :nervous: :nervous:
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It sounds like to me that you ran over something stationary and the ride-on didn't do its job. :nixweiss:
Glad it was uneventful :2vrolijk_21:
Like a spike strip :pineapple:
TN
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It sounds like to me that you ran over something stationary and the ride-on didn't do its job. :nixweiss:
Glad it was uneventful :2vrolijk_21:
Like a spike strip :pineapple:
TN
Caltrops?
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Caltrops?
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I had to google that, very interesting.
Don't ride behind certain folks. :drink:
TN
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Glad you got stopped ok, having a sudden total lose of air pressure can be a little unnerving :nervous: :nervous: :nervous:
Since we were cruising in a straight line, the Bike behavior really wasn't that bad,,, the old hi-speed dirt bike experience probably saved our bacon on that one :huepfenlol2: By the Grace of God we weren't heeled over...
With a total flat the bike is very resistant to turning :nervous:
The burning rubber smell was unnerving...
"It sounds like to me that you ran over something stationary and the ride-on didn't do its job. :nixweiss:
Glad it was uneventful :2vrolijk_21:
Like a spike strip :pineapple:"
TN
Phil, I agree, except that we didn't see, feel, or hear anything like a board with a nail sticking up, or any other object for that matter :confused5: The tire appears to have a single nail hole (no nail) in the center of the tread :nixweiss:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDIyZeZ4PY8
Yea, Harry from Ride-On asked if the hole appeared to be "cored" like I ran over spike strips :o The tire did not appear to be "cored" in fact, the nail hole appeared smaller than the drill bit used in the youtube demo above...
I spoke with Ride-On yesterday and emailed them some pictures,,, maybe I'll hear back from them after the holiday??
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Evening Update; 61,088 on the Bike, 40,xxx on the Build, 9,xxx on the "Refresh"
Changed the Mobil1 20-50,(3qts) K&N Filter, & Redline Primary Case Fluid,(1qt) with the same.
At 4k miles, this oil change was a little long for me,,, even though the Engine oil was almost "diesel black" the Bike is performing very well, and more importantly, dead nuts QUIET except that an Intake? S&S Premium Lifter "tapped" 6 times at startup one morning in Maggie Valley :nervous:
Engine used a little less than 1 "X" on the dipstick,,, No debris on the Drain Plug... :2vrolijk_21:
Primary remains quiet and smooth, the Alto Carbonite Plates still giving a "Motorcop would love it" feel and an easy Neutral... Enough "paste" to cover the magnet on the Drain Plug,,, no debris... :2vrolijk_21:
Fuel Mileage is back to 38.7, with a low of 35.6, and a high of 44.2 blasting home from the Maggie Valley GTG :drink:
A little disappointed with Ride-On Tire Sealant,,, I spoke with Harry 8/31 at Ride-On (about the instant deflation on the Rear Michelin Commander II while we were riding around Murphy, NC), and sent some pictures at his request,,, 'never heard back from Ride-On :nixweiss: in this instance the sealant didn't work at all, and the company doesn't seem to care :confused5: so no more Ride-On for me...
Besides,,, I can get 2 racks of ribs for the cost of r-o...
Next on the list,,, Flush the Hydraulic Clutch & the Brakes :bananarock:
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Afternoon Update; 61,707 on the Bike, 41,xxx on the Build; 10,xxx on the "Refresh"
Not many miles, been riding the :cherry:
Finally got around to having the Brakes and Clutch Flushed, at HD of Panama City Beach,,, Figured I'd give HDPCB a try as Emerald Coast HD (who I've been trading with for over 15 years has a lot of turnover), can't hardly get anybody on the phone, when I called for a quote, some newbie told me it would be $375. (+tax) to flush the Brakes and Clutch, $125 for each of the 3 Hydraulic systems :o whereas HDPCB had me out the door for $125 :2vrolijk_21:
The Fluids looked fine, just used, no trash in the bottom of the reservoirs,,, All Good :2vrolijk_21:
The Bike is doing fine all the way around :bananarock: next on the list; R&R the Fuel Filter...
MERRY CHRISTMAS!! & HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
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Afternoon Update; 61,707 on the Bike, 41,xxx on the Build; 10,xxx on the "Refresh"
Not many miles, been riding the :cherry:
Finally got around to having the Brakes and Clutch Flushed, at HD of Panama City Beach,,, Figured I'd give HDPCB a try as Emerald Coast HD (who I've been trading with for over 15 years has a lot of turnover), can't hardly get anybody on the phone, when I called for a quote, some newbie told me it would be $375. (+tax) to flush the Brakes and Clutch, $125 for each of the 3 Hydraulic systems :o whereas HDPCB had me out the door for $125 :2vrolijk_21:
The Fluids looked fine, just used, no trash in the bottom of the reservoirs,,, All Good :2vrolijk_21:
The Bike is doing fine all the way around :bananarock: next on the list; R&R the Fuel Filter...
MERRY CHRISTMAS!! & HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
Glad she is still going strong for you Ed
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It never did "creep", even straddling (weight off) the bike, revving the engine...
When first installed Altos >10k ago, had evasive Neutral, trying the 32oz Fluid cured Neutral... It doesn't seem to be abnormally loud going into 1st, if I have the Lever pinned to the Grip, with (sometimes) a blip of the Throttle... Easy Neutral with the factory recommended 38oz now.
Maybe I'm just learning to "drive around" it :nixweiss: I still have some experimenting to do... Wanting to try a lighter Spring than the SE HD (380lb) that is currently installed, maybe the OE CVO Spring ( 340lb) or a stock Spring- 300lb... It's got more than enough Clutch in it, not even thinking about slipping,,, figuring that a lighter Spring would be less stress on the hydraulics / bearings etc... long term, with the added benefit of a lighter Lever pull...
Ed what spring did you finally settle on? Was going to try and put the Alto clutch and VP95LT in later this week and thought I would try and get the right spring in the first time from your experience
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Ed what spring did you finally settle on? Was going to try and put the Alto clutch and VP95LT in later this week and thought I would try and get the right spring in the first time from your experience
Hi David,
'Never did change it out, waiting on another excuse to go into the Primary, still running the SE HD Spring (380 lb??) that came in the Stage III Kit...
The Stock CVO Spring (340 lb??) should be more than enough with the Alto / AIM combo :2vrolijk_21:
What are you running now?? any slip?? any issues??
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Right now I am running the SE spring (380???), and passing in 5th 2up I have to feather it or it will blow through the clutch.
From reading AIM's chart I think I will start with the CVO spring (340??) and see how that feels.
Thank you Ed
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Get a Rekluse
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Right now I am running the SE spring (380???), and passing in 5th 2up I have to feather it or it will blow through the clutch.
From reading AIM's chart I think I will start with the CVO spring (340??) and see how that feels.
Thank you Ed
You'll be fine with the CVO Spring,,, iirc it has a pink dot... The Alto Plates add a fair amount of grip...
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The SE heavy duty spring, S&S Heavy duty spring, and the Alto heavy duty clutch spring are all made by Alto, and are all the same springs. ;)
John
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You'll be fine with the CVO Spring,,, iirc it has a pink dot... The Alto Plates add a fair amount of grip...
Thank you Ed. Work has kind of gotten in the way of working on the bike this weekend, so maybe next weekend I can replace it.
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The SE heavy duty spring, S&S Heavy duty spring, and the Alto heavy duty clutch spring are all made by Alto, and are all the same springs. ;)
John
Thank you John. I'll save that bit.of.information