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[NORSEMAN]

I was out riding with a friend yesterday.  I was chasing his 2016 BMW with my 2016 SESG.  It was all fun and games until we stopped for lunch after filling up in Marlington, WV.  I guess we were stopped for an hour when I started up my SESG and it sounded awful.  Spitting and sputtering.  I shut it off and started again.  Same thing.  Hardly enough power to even get the bike moving forward without stalling out.  I went a couple miles down the road to see if it cleared-up.  If I rolled the throttle past 1/3 way, it would sound loud but loose all power.  Spit and sputter.  Under 2K RPM and it would spit and sputter.  Turned it around and went back to the gas station.  Looked it over and couldn't see anything obvious, like a wire disconnected.  I re-seated the spark plug wires.  Pulled the main fuse for a few seconds.  No improvement.  I thought it was possible I had some bad gas, do I purchased some fuel additive to remove water and boost the octane.  No improvement.  Decided to try and run it a few miles down the road, to see if it cleared-up.  It would run horrible up to about 3K rpm, then clear up and give me a giant kick in the rear as it took off, and then when I shifted and the RPM fell below 3K again, I couldn't make it up the smallest of hills and it would spit and sputter.  The lurching action made it difficult to ride through curves in rural west virginia.  I had no phone service and the bike was barely rideable.  I wound up limping it home. Stopped several times, hoping it would clear up.  I don't know if something clogged the injector or what.  I'll be taking it to the dealer, as it's only six weeks off the dealer floor and under warranty.  Has about 4K miles on it.  Thinking back, there was one other time I had a rough idle issue at starting.  I was somewhere in the midwest and it did the rough idle pop and lurch thing at starting up after a food/fuel stop.  It cleared up fairly quick, so I didn't think much of it.  No engine light, so I'm thinking no codes were thrown.  Really odd.  It runs like the old school carb cars did when it had a big vacuum leak in the intake.   
I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar issue happen to them, and what was discovered as the issue?  I'm thinking of draining the remaining gas (about 1/3 tank left of that last fill-up in Marlington) and filling with pure gas, to see if it helps.  The dealer I purchased the bike from is closed on Monday's, so I thought I might futz around with it tonight.  Any suggestions or thoughts are welcome, as I'm stumped. 

[rigidthumper]

Have you tried pulling codes using the trip reset switch? That might give a clue.

[jpb]

Diesel fuel by mistake??

[NORSEMAN]

Have you tried pulling codes using the trip reset switch? That might give a clue.

Not yet, but I will tonight after work. 

Diesel fuel by mistake??

No, and my friend riding the BMW filled-up at the same station with the same grade gas (93 octane) and had zero issues with his bike. 

[bdcpv]

look at O2 sensors... it seems you burned or disconnected one and so u went in recovery map or the ecu isn't able to reach the correct target.

let me know

thanks

[Joel]

I had a similar experience with my limited, restart after re-fill ran very bad, shut the engine off for a few seconds as the wife asks what the hell? Restarted and ran great, If I was to guess I would think a MAP sensor out of range issue.
I never tried to pull codes and it only has done it 1 time. Hope you get it figured out  quick.

[Ironhorse]

I had a similar issue.

When you filled the tank, did you fill it up to the very top of the neck and then park for lunch?

I ask because that was my issue. I once stopped for gas and filled up with the bike upright between my legs, and not on the side stand. This allowed me to fill it up to the edge of the filler neck. When filled to the neck and then parked, the gas vapors expanded and pushed gasoline into the overflow system. This dumped gas right into the induction unit (throttle body) causing it to gag in an over rich manner while throttling up. I had to let the bike idle a while and "drink" up a sufficient amount of gas to lower the fuel level in the tank. Once this was done it ran fine.

Not sure if this is what happened to you, just sharing my experience.

Mark

[Unbalanced]

first you can check to see if there are any codes in the bike.   This would be the first thing to try.

2nd
Check to be sure your spark plug wires are set on the sparkplug by that i mean you cant just pull em off with no effort.   Something similiar to what you are seeing might be that the bike is loading down to 1 cylinder and then with enough rpm or such its making enough connectivity to get full spark.

Can also ground the sparkplug to the head and be sure you are getting sufficient spark ... as if you have a spark plug that is cracked, the top screw on metal piece can also come off etc.

you can also easily reset the throttle system by turning the handle bar switch to run / start
Then turn the ignition on/off 6 times on off on off on off -----

Then turn the bike off and let sit for a minute and see if that helps at all.


Hope ya figure it out.

[08glide]

tony's bike did that last yr coming to wv gtg after we left paintbank. ended up being  broke valve guide. that looked to be brought on by excessive heat & cam bearings were shot. end of cam was flopping around & wore out the case. ended up with new motor. hope this isn't your case. but it's happened tp Tony twice while in Va. good luck. keep us posted.
ps. his first go round was like yours. bike running fine stopped for gas, hit the hwy & it wasn't running worth a crap & making noise

[donald p]

Same thing here water in the gas X2.

[Unbalanced]

If it'sonly 20.00 drain the tank and refill or get some lead free higher octane and see if it makes a difference

[NORSEMAN]

Checked error codes.  It's throwing two;
P0151 - low voltage to O2 sensor (rear)
P1356 - rear cyl no combustion
says p/n 001234-01, which I can't find a reference to anywhere.

Sounds like bad O2 sensor. 

Tried the obvious; unplugged the 02 sensor lead connectors and re-seated (under right side cover).  Unplugged the three connectors to the ECU and re-seated.  Checked the wiring condition of the 02 sensor leads and saw no damage or burns or whatnot.  Unplugged the main fuse for 20 seconds.  Said "f@ck me" to no one in particular. 

[NORSEMAN]

When you filled the tank, did you fill it up to the very top of the neck and then park for lunch?

  I have OCD, and my compulsivity means I try to make the fuel reach the filler bung.  I can't help it.

If it'sonly 20.00 drain the tank and refill or get some lead free higher octane and see if it makes a difference

  Only have 1/4 tank of gas left.  I'm going to drain it and re-fill with gas from a station that I use frequently and have had no historical issues with. 

tony's bike did that last yr coming to wv gtg after we left paintbank. ended up being  broke valve guide. that looked to be brought on by excessive heat & cam bearings were shot. end of cam was flopping around & wore out the case. ended up with new motor. hope this isn't your case. but it's happened tp Tony twice while in Va. good luck. keep us posted.
ps. his first go round was like yours. bike running fine stopped for gas, hit the hwy & it wasn't running worth a crap & making noise

I was doing my best to keep up with that BMW.  Did ok, but my stock 110 doesn't have the legs to keep up with the boxer on the straights, and my cornering clearance (SESG) is reduced.  It was pretty darned hot, but it ran great until it rested an hour at our lunch stop.  Hope it's just something simple.  If it wasn't under warranty, I would just change out the 02 sensor and see if it resolves the issue.

[TN]

Checked error codes.  It's throwing two;
P0151 - low voltage to O2 sensor (rear)
P1356 - rear cyl no combustion
says p/n 001234-01, which I can't find a reference to anywhere.

Sounds like bad O2 sensor. 

Tried the obvious; unplugged the 02 sensor lead connectors and re-seated (under right side cover).  Unplugged the three connectors to the ECU and re-seated.  Checked the wiring condition of the 02 sensor leads and saw no damage or burns or whatnot.  Unplugged the main fuse for 20 seconds.  Said "f@ck me" to no one in particular.

I had this symptom not too long ago right before I headed out on my last rode trip, my code was no combustion on front cylinder 1353 I think it was. It was not too far from home so I limped in. I was warming it up for a fluid change so I did that and changed the plugs, cleaned and greased the connectors at the ECM and throttle body. Been running fine for the last 3k er so. 

Hope it's something simple for you. Good luck and keep us apprised.


TN

[sadunbar]

Checked error codes.  It's throwing two;
P0151 - low voltage to O2 sensor (rear)
P1356 - rear cyl no combustion
says p/n 001234-01, which I can't find a reference to anywhere.

Sounds like bad O2 sensor. 

Tried the obvious; unplugged the 02 sensor lead connectors and re-seated (under right side cover).  Unplugged the three connectors to the ECU and re-seated.  Checked the wiring condition of the 02 sensor leads and saw no damage or burns or whatnot.  Unplugged the main fuse for 20 seconds.  Said "f@ck me" to no one in particular.

Generally this is every bit as effective as bringing your ride to a certified MOCO dealer technician...    

[Para Bellum]

From your description, it sure sounds like it's running on one cylinder until you get it up over 3K rpm.  Have you checked the condition of the rear spark plug to see if it's fouled from oil or running rich, is it too lean, etc.  Would be nice to see what it looks like after a period of low-RPM running when bike is ragged, and also immediately after high-RPM smooth running.

BTW, if the spark plug is getting fouled, the O2 sensor might also get fouled/forced out of correct range.

[NORSEMAN]

The dealer was closed on Monday, so I contacted them today.  With it being only six weeks off the showroom floor, it's certainly under warranty.  Dealer is going to come pick it up at my house, as I have no truck or trailer to haul a motorcycle.  Sucks, as I commute with my bike from April to November, so I'm relegated to the cage until it's fixed.  I was doing some research on failures of 02 sensors.  Looks like I'm in good company.  lol
My guess is they review the diagnostic codes, check the HD site for what to do, then replace the 02 sensor as recommended.  If it happens to run, declare victory and call the customer to pick it up. 
I asked if they could just give me the O2 sensor to replace, and the service manager said no.  Their tech has to perform and diagnosis and replace the parts, as they need the full paper trail to get reimbursed by MoCo for the warranty failure.  Seriously, it's all of 20 minutes for me to remove the old sensor, apply anti-seize and install the new one.  That's including time to scratch my a$$ and clean anti-seize off the 37 things it mysteriously smudges onto. 

[Chief2505]

The dealer was closed on Monday, so I contacted them today.  With it being only six weeks off the showroom floor, it's certainly under warranty.  Dealer is going to come pick it up at my house, as I have no truck or trailer to haul a motorcycle.  Sucks, as I commute with my bike from April to November, so I'm relegated to the cage until it's fixed.  I was doing some research on failures of 02 sensors.  Looks like I'm in good company.  lol
My guess is they review the diagnostic codes, check the HD site for what to do, then replace the 02 sensor as recommended.  If it happens to run, declare victory and call the customer to pick it up. 
I asked if they could just give me the O2 sensor to replace, and the service manager said no.  Their tech has to perform and diagnosis and replace the parts, as they need the full paper trail to get reimbursed by MoCo for the warranty failure.  Seriously, it's all of 20 minutes for me to remove the old sensor, apply anti-seize and install the new one.  That's including time to scratch my a$$ and clean anti-seize off the 37 things it mysteriously smudges onto.

Yeah that antisieze has a way of getting everywhere! LOL

[grc]

Be very very careful with that anti-seize compound, or you'll be changing the sensor again in the near future. 

While it may be an O₂ sensor, those codes do not automatically mean replace the sensor.  There are other failures that will also set those same codes.  Hopefully your dealer will do the full diagnostic routine and make sure to get the root cause of the problem.

Jerry

[NORSEMAN]

Be very very careful with that anti-seize compound, or you'll be changing the sensor again in the near future. 

While it may be an O₂ sensor, those codes do not automatically mean replace the sensor.  There are other failures that will also set those same codes.  Hopefully your dealer will do the full diagnostic routine and make sure to get the root cause of the problem.

Jerry

It wasn't a simple O2 sensor issue.  The dealer techs have been on the phone with Milwaukee.  They tried removing an ECM from a new bike and marrying it to mine, and that didn't help.  The last thing they were going to try was to fashion a new temporary ground to the ECM to see if there was a bad ground in the wiring harness.  I'm guessing that didn't work, or they would have called me to pay my bill and pick the bike up. 

[OBB]

It wasn't a simple O2 sensor issue.  The dealer techs have been on the phone with Milwaukee.  They tried removing an ECM from a new bike and marrying it to mine, and that didn't help.  The last thing they were going to try was to fashion a new temporary ground to the ECM to see if there was a bad ground in the wiring harness.  I'm guessing that didn't work, or they would have called me to pay my bill and pick the bike up. 

It's a brand new bike. There shouldn't be a bill for it.

[NORSEMAN]

It's a brand new bike. There shouldn't be a bill for it.

For the fix, you're right.  I had them perform the 5K service while they had it, so there will be a bill for that.   

[JCZ]

I had a similar issue.

When you filled the tank, did you fill it up to the very top of the neck and then park for lunch?

I ask because that was my issue. I once stopped for gas and filled up with the bike upright between my legs, and not on the side stand. This allowed me to fill it up to the edge of the filler neck. When filled to the neck and then parked, the gas vapors expanded and pushed gasoline into the overflow system. This dumped gas right into the induction unit (throttle body) causing it to gag in an over rich manner while throttling up. I had to let the bike idle a while and "drink" up a sufficient amount of gas to lower the fuel level in the tank. Once this was done it ran fine.

Not sure if this is what happened to you, just sharing my experience.

Mark

Mark I fill to the very top of the filler neck every time.  Just a habit after riding across the deserts many times.  I've never experienced an issue.  I go so far as to fill it to the top, rock the bike so it gurgles down and top it off again......several times before it will no longer gurgle down.  And yes, we've topped off many times, then gone in to eat or some other thing that's time consuming.   As a matter of fact just yesterday Miguel was teasing me about "JC you can only get so much gas in that tank".  Never been an issue.   

[grc]

On a California model with a carbon canister, overfilling can flood the canister and lead to driveability issues.  Unlike current cars and trucks that have baffle systems in the fuel tanks to help prevent overfilling, a Harley tank has nothing.  I wouldn't fill beyond the bottom of the filler neck (when the fuel comes up in the little holes around the filler tube, that's enough.

Jerry

[NORSEMAN]

Update: still not running properly.  I talked with the service manager yesterday.  It sounds like Milwaukee doesn't have a clue what's wrong with the bike or how to fix it.  The last thing they attempted was to change the fuel pump.  The service manager said it seemed to help the rough idle, but still awful during throttle roll-on.  I'll call Milwaukee HQ today, but I don't expect anyone there will give a crap about one unsatisfied owner.  I just don't get how they throw parts at it and hope something works.  It's so random. 
It is NOT the dealer's fault!!  MoCo had very specific guidelines on warranty work, and the dealer techs can't solve the problems and get paid unless they have checked all the boxes and received approval from Milwaukee.  Meanwhile, I have no motorcycle to ride day 10.   

[FlaHeatWave]

HD should give you a loaner bike

[NORSEMAN]

HD should give you a loaner bike

Yeah, I thought so too.  I asked.  No joy.  I'm beyond upset.  I thought owning a CVO would bring a premium experience.  Silly me....

[NORSEMAN]

Update: Beginning week four of the broken CVO saga.  I wrote a letter to MoCo, letting them know the date my bike turns into a LEMON, per Virginia law, and requesting full reimbursement for damages.  The day Milwaukee received the letter, a field service technician called the dealer, per their service manager.  They tried "one more thing", that thing being swapping out the lifters.  Didn't solve the problem.  I heard yesterday that the field service tech is planning to fly from Milwaukee down here to Virginia today.  He plans to get to the dealer late today or tomorrow morning. The dealer data logged cold start up and running hot, plus took some video, for the field service guy to study on his way down.  I'm told the FST plans to head back to Wisconsin on Friday.  As the dealer has had to order parts and wait for delivery, for most of the parts they have thrown at it, I'm dubious the bike will actually be running before the FST departs.  At any rate, by this time next week, I should have a resolution.  Unless something amazingly surprising occurs, I suspect MoCo will be buying the bike back and I'll be riding a new Victory.

[Ironhorse]

I suspect MoCo will be buying the bike back and I'll be riding a new Victory.

Which Victory will you be looking at? I really like the Cross Country Tour. Lots of good usable torque and power and well behaved at slow maneuvers. The storage seems decent, probably as much as an Ultra. I've tried the Vision and it's too "Johnny Quest" for me.

I hope the issue gets resolved to your liking. I don't like to hear about folks going through what you did.

[NORSEMAN]

Which Victory will you be looking at?

I like how the Magnum X-1 looks.  I like the utility of the rear box, but prefer the look without one.  I usually ride one-up, so stripped-down cruiser bagger works for me most of the time. 

[RonandJanet]

It will interesting to see what the problem is. Hopefully you will get this resolved soon!

[Ironhorse]

I like how the Magnum X-1 looks.  I like the utility of the rear box, but prefer the look without one.  I usually ride one-up, so stripped-down cruiser bagger works for me most of the time.

That's a SHARP looking bike! I like the paint and graphics, almost like a CVO StreetGlide. You can probably get a removable tour pack color matched to go with it for long trips. And only $24,500!

[FLSTFI Dave]

That's a SHARP looking bike! I like the paint and graphics, almost like a CVO StreetGlide. You can probably get a removable tour pack color matched to go with it for long trips. And only $24,500!

Street glide special is at or above that price.  With no were near the good looking paint on that bike.

[Rooster]

I have a friend with a cross country tour. 145000 trouble free miles and still riding it along with a new Indian. He traded his 07 ultra that had 110 upgrade done and suffered all the issues that us 07 CVO owners had for the Victory a few years back.

[NORSEMAN]

Latest update:
Fourth weekend without a motorcycle.  All four have been picture postcard perfect weather, and I'm jonesing for a ride something awful.
Last week, Harley Davidson sent a field service technician to my local dealer.  The dealer service techs were just finishing replacing the cams, and that didn't solve the problem.  The field service tech decided it had to be an electrical issue, and was 99.9% certain a new main harness would cure the problems with my bike.  The harness didn't ship from the warehouse in time to get there Friday, so the field service tech flew back to Milwaukee.  The dealer master tech replaced the wiring harness, and it didn't resolve the issue.  I'm told the field service tech will return to my local dealer again this week, along with another tech from Milwaukee.  The latter being someone involved with the MoCo racing program, or some such thing.  So far, they've replaced the spark plugs, O2 sensor, ECM (twice), BCM, fuel pump, induction module, lifters, camshafts, and main wiring harness.  I appreciate the fact that Harley has dispatched their field service tech to the dealer.  That's not a cheap thing to do, and I don't know anyone who's had this level of support to get their bike up and running.  That said, how long am I expected to wait for the bike to be fixed?  How many payments and missed riding weekends?  The Virginia Lemon Law states 30 days in the shop, or three attempts to fix the same issue without success.  I'll be at 30 days this week, but I have no commitment from MoCo or the dealer about making me whole on the CVO. 

[grc]

I doubt Harley is going to offer to buy the bike back unless you take the formal steps to file under the lemon law.  They should have provided a loaner but I didn't notice any mention of them doing that, so I question just how serious they are about satisfying the customer.  And I really question how they are just throwing parts at it instead of doing some diagnosis.  For instance, changing the cams was supposed to do what exactly?  It's not that hard to measure the cams and determine if a lobe is worn excessively.  Since the bike didn't run bad initially, the cams obviously weren't ground wrong.  If this is the best talent Harley can come up with your bike make never run right again.  If it were mine, I would have already filed the paperwork and/or sought the advice of an attorney.

JMHO - Jerry

[NORSEMAN]

I doubt Harley is going to offer to buy the bike back unless you take the formal steps to file under the lemon law.  They should have provided a loaner but I didn't notice any mention of them doing that, so I question just how serious they are about satisfying the customer.  And I really question how they are just throwing parts at it instead of doing some diagnosis.  For instance, changing the cams was supposed to do what exactly?  It's not that hard to measure the cams and determine if a lobe is worn excessively.  Since the bike didn't run bad initially, the cams obviously weren't ground wrong.  If this is the best talent Harley can come up with your bike make never run right again.  If it were mine, I would have already filed the paperwork and/or sought the advice of an attorney.

JMHO - Jerry

I requested a loaner, but was denied.  I did get a call from a person at HD corporate today.  You're right - they will not offer to buy the bike back.  I was told that I'll need to litigate to get any relief via the Lemon Law.  I am so very disappointed. 

[Robmay]

Sad. Time to contact an attorney I suppose.   

[Para Bellum]

I requested a loaner, but was denied.  I did get a call from a person at HD corporate today.  You're right - they will not offer to buy the bike back.  I was told that I'll need to litigate to get any relief via the Lemon Law.  I am so very disappointed.

SFT (So typical).  HD says they listened to the customer to develop the 107'/114' and the improved Rushedmore bikes, but they won't provide a loaner; throw parts at the bike hoping something will stick; and  make you go through the hassle of Lemon Law litigation instead of giving you a new bike and taking that one to the drivetrain engineering team for analysis.  I guess they didn't hear the customers' requests for customer service.

Just wondering if there is some advantage to the company that makes it worthwhile to have customers file litigation, as compared to just swapping/refunding?

[Fired00d]

SFT (So typical).  HD says they listened to the customer to develop the 107'/114' and the improved Rushedmore bikes, but they won't provide a loaner; throw parts at the bike hoping something will stick; and  make you go through the hassle of Lemon Law litigation instead of giving you a new bike and taking that one to the drivetrain engineering team for analysis.  I guess they didn't hear the customers' requests for customer service.

Just wondering if there is some advantage to the company that makes it worthwhile to have customers file litigation, as compared to just swapping/refunding?

My guess is they are hedging their bets on customer getting frustrated and either selling/trading the bike in (for a loss) vs them (doing the right thing) compensating the customer (buying bike back, offering ($$$) what customer paid for it on a new bike, etc., etc.). Once contacted by a lawyer I bet they will want to settle (quickly) with a "gag order" (you can't disclose the outcome).

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[NORSEMAN]

Just wondering if there is some advantage to the company that makes it worthwhile to have customers file litigation, as compared to just swapping/refunding?

I'm guessing the bullying tactic is successful in enough cases to make this approach attractive financially.  Ultimately, the law is the law. HD will wind up (in most cases) paying attorney's fees, in addition to full price paid, interest, doc fees, registration, etc.  In a few days, the bike will have been at the dealer for 30 consecutive days.  If the guys from Milwaukee are successful in diagnosing and repairing the issue before the 30 days is up, then I'll have no legal recourse via Virginia's lemon law.  Their track record with this bike leads me to believe they'll run out of time, however, and I just want to get back on two wheels....
This is a clear case of being penny wise and pound foolish. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FLTRCVO]

SFT (So typical).  HD says they listened to the customer to develop the 107'/114' and the improved Rushedmore bikes, but they won't provide a loaner; throw parts at the bike hoping something will stick; and  make you go through the hassle of Lemon Law litigation instead of giving you a new bike and taking that one to the drivetrain engineering team for analysis.  I guess they didn't hear the customers' requests for customer service.

Just wondering if there is some advantage to the company that makes it worthwhile to have customers file litigation, as compared to just swapping/refunding?

I went through this crap in 2007, however, I served notice to the top echelon of Harley Davidson via Certified Mail. However, at the time there wasn't anything they made I trusted (the dreaded 110 ) and or wanted so I told them I was going to wait and when I decided they would ship me the bike I chose and swap it out with a brand new 7 year warranty. In 2009 I decided I wanted the 2009 Road Glide FLTRSE3 and gave Harley back their 2007 CVO Road King, for me one of the best moves I ever made. During the 2 years I had the 2007 Road King the Motor Company put 5 motors in that bike, each time the motor was taken out put in a crate and shipped out while a new motor was cross shipped overnight with my VIN. and I was back on the road within 4 days every time.

Therefore, wondering if Norseman might be more successful if he were to document the chronology of events and send them to the President and CEO of Harley Davidson prior to shelling out money for an attorney.

[Dan_Lockwood]

I'm guessing the bullying tactic is successful in enough cases to make this approach attractive financially.  Ultimately, the law is the law. HD will wind up (in most cases) paying attorney's fees, in addition to full price paid, interest, doc fees, registration, etc.  In a few days, the bike will have been at the dealer for 30 consecutive days.  If the guys from Milwaukee are successful in diagnosing and repairing the issue before the 30 days is up, then I'll have no legal recourse via Virginia's lemon law.  Their track record with this bike leads me to believe they'll run out of time, however, and I just want to get back on two wheels....
This is a clear case of being penny wise and pound foolish. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Obviously you are very happy with the new bike, except for it running like chit.  So if it's repaired and doesn't do this again, you should be a happy camper.

I say that because sometimes the state's Lemon Laws are not very end user friendly.

I read on here many years ago that when the Lemon Law is applied, there is a pro-rated "usage" charge.  This is defined by the life cycle of the vehicle and the miles you've put against this magical life cycle number.

The problem with motorcycles is that the life cycle, at least back in the mid '00s was only like 25k miles.  That means that no matter how old it is, at 4k miles, that could be as much as a 16% depreciation on a refund.

I'm saying this only as hear say and I have no personal experience with any state's Lemon Law.  But before you get too far down the Lemon Law threats, do your home work and see if there is a grace period on a "newer" vehicle that excludes mileage.

I truly hope that your bike gets fixed soon.

I'm sure you'll keep us all updated on your situation.

Good luck... 

[Chief2505]

I started the lemon law on my 12 in Illinois and was told that the lemon law applied to the original MSRP of the bike and that nothing would be given for the $4,000 I had spent on accessories. I finally bit the bullet and traded the bike for a 13 CVO

[kojak]

I've never heard of Harley not being able to figure out what is wrong with a malfunctioning engine like your story over 4 weeks, specially on a new bike. You said they"So far, they've replaced the spark plugs, O2 sensor, ECM (twice), BCM, fuel pump, induction module, lifters, camshafts, and main wiring harness." That's so crazy because they should be able to figure out if you have a spark or if your ecm was bad or your bike was starved for fuel. Then changing lifters/ cams would mean manufacturing issues with those components. As they were pulling these parts off, were they defective or not? How many miles are on the bike and is it bone stock? P codes are of course ECM/ICM related. I assume when you said BCM, you meant ICM (ignition control module). No matter, good luck. Hope you get it figured out.

[FLTRCVO]

Norseman you might be more successful if you document the chronology of events include names, titles and Dealerships send them to the President and CEO of Harley Davidson via Certified Mail prior to shelling out money for an attorney. The Lemon Law Lemonade isn't as sweet as advertised and you never totally win.

[SHRADER]

Sounds like the coil or plug wire is shot. If they have replaced basically every other component in the fuel/electrical firing system, they may have also checked or replaced these too, but you night ask to make sure. If the rear cylinder coil or wire Has only a partial connection or output it would explain why it's only firing above 3k. If it's not firing all the time then the o2 sensor would be out of range as is the case you described.

[longlast]

Change the plugs FIRST go from there.

[grc]

Sounds like the coil or plug wire is shot. If they have replaced basically every other component in the fuel/electrical firing system, they may have also checked or replaced these too, but you night ask to make sure. If the rear cylinder coil or wire Has only a partial connection or output it would explain why it's only firing above 3k. If it's not firing all the time then the o2 sensor would be out of range as is the case you described.

I really can't wrap my head around how they have been trying to fix this.  If the bike is basically sputtering and barely running below 3000 rpm, they should be able to duplicate that condition easily while having all the diagnostic tools connected.  The plugs are either firing or they are not, the injectors are pulsing or they are not, etc.  Then let's take a look at compression on the cylinder that isn't running worth chit.  It takes four things to make it run; air, fuel, spark, and compression.  And of course those all need to be in correct amounts and occur at the correct time.  Every bit of it is measureable.  And yet they just stand back and throw parts at it, changing some not only once but twice in the case of the ECM.  I think it's time to try the method almost certain to fix the problem; jack up the tank and slide a new bike under it. 

Jerry

[NORSEMAN]

Norseman you might be more successful if you document the chronology of events include names, titles and Dealerships send them to the President and CEO of Harley Davidson via Certified Mail prior to shelling out money for an attorney. The Lemon Law Lemonade isn't as sweet as advertised and you never totally win.

I've done so.  A couple weeks back, after feeling that this issue wouldn't be resolved in a timely manner, I had sent letters to HD customer service, HD finance, and the dealer, letting them know my concerns and advising that I understand and retain my rights with regards to the VA lemon law.  The dealer and Harley Davidson Motor Company have had over a month to do the right thing, and have made the choice not to.  Instead, they think it's perfectly reasonable to keep throwing parts at the bike until it eventually runs; regardless of how long it takes to remedy the issue.

The dealer is Black Bear Harley Davidson in Wytheville, VA.  The owner is Charlie Cole, who also has other dealerships in the region.  I suspect Charlie is the one who made the call to MoCo, to request the field service technicians be dispatched to his shop.  I understand that every company who manufactures something will experience a failure at some point in time.  I understand that sometimes the failure can be difficult to diagnose and repair.  However, this is a top of the line motorcycle, nearly new with about 4K miles on the odometer, and it's been in the repair shop for 30 days since purchased in July.  I fully expected the dealer and MoCo to stand behind their product, and get me back on two wheels in a reasonable amount of time.  I think that a reasonable time-to-recovery has transpired, and the customer (me) should be made whole. 

They replaced most of the major sub-systems and components; plugs, O2 sensor, ECM (twice), BCM, fashioned a temporary ground to the ECM to check for a bad harness ground, fuel pump, induction module, lifters, cams, and the main wiring harness.  The main wiring harness is like the "hail mary" of diagnostics; they do that when they're out of all other options.  Their plan, now, is to ring the harness out wire by wire, checking connectors and components along the way, for anything related to a code that's been thrown. 

The lemon law remedy isn't something I'm keen to do, but perhaps asserting my rights under law could help someone else in the future.  As for me, I'm considering this an expensive lesson.  One that I will not repeat. 

[NORSEMAN]

I've never heard of Harley not being able to figure out what is wrong with a malfunctioning engine like your story over 4 weeks, specially on a new bike. You said they"So far, they've replaced the spark plugs, O2 sensor, ECM (twice), BCM, fuel pump, induction module, lifters, camshafts, and main wiring harness." That's so crazy because they should be able to figure out if you have a spark or if your ecm was bad or your bike was starved for fuel. Then changing lifters/ cams would mean manufacturing issues with those components. As they were pulling these parts off, were they defective or not? How many miles are on the bike and is it bone stock? P codes are of course ECM/ICM related. I assume when you said BCM, you meant ICM (ignition control module). No matter, good luck. Hope you get it figured out.

Bone stock. Not even slipons.  I'm a big mileage rider, who rides in any weather. I haven't even put highway pegs on it yet, and I've been from VA to WI and back on the bike. I did plan on adding some goodies but I wanted to put some miles on it before I made any decisions.

None of the components replaced have been found to be faulty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NORSEMAN]

I really can't wrap my head around how they have been trying to fix this.  If the bike is basically sputtering and barely running below 3000 rpm, they should be able to duplicate that condition easily while having all the diagnostic tools connected.  The plugs are either firing or they are not, the injectors are pulsing or they are not, etc.  Then let's take a look at compression on the cylinder that isn't running worth chit.  It takes four things to make it run; air, fuel, spark, and compression.  And of course those all need to be in correct amounts and occur at the correct time.  Every bit of it is measureable.  And yet they just stand back and throw parts at it, changing some not only once but twice in the case of the ECM.  I think it's time to try the method almost certain to fix the problem; jack up the tank and slide a new bike under it. 

Jerry

They've taken it out with the data logger, capturing recordings as it sputters and lurches.  i was told that the data didn't show any specific faults.  I'm relying on the factory certified technicians to repair the bike.  Thus far, everything they've tried has been unsuccessful.  The field service tech said he's never come across anything like this.  They are supposedly going to start inspecting every wire, connector and component related to any code thrown.  Maybe they'll figure it out today; maybe next year.  Who knows? 

[sadunbar]

Is the crank sensor among the parts they have thrown at it?

[JC]

Why would they not have changed the TB and injectors? Seems to me it may be a fuel delivery problem, or you have a valve that is sticking.

[GRam]

What I'm amazed at is the fact the factory is flying this FST out and back, rinse and repeat, throwing parts at it
and hoping something sticks..
Cost-wise, it would have been waayyy cheaper to hand OP a new bike, and shipped the dud back to factory
for deconstruction/analysis. "We'll save money, no matter HOW MUCH it costs.." Solid thinking there MOCO, bravo.

[RonandJanet]

Not only is this cheaper the consumer is happy and will tell others what great service they got!  The best part is that once they figure it out they will know either what to fix on other bikes or how to prevent this on other bikes. Either way a root cause analysis is very valuable.

[Rooster]

The thing that worries me is they send out the so called experts who do nothing more than the dealer and just continue to throw parts at it HOPING to get it right. Where is the REAL expert that knows how to solve the issue? I agree with someone's previous comment that they hope you will give up and trade for another of their fine offerings.

[grc]

They've taken it out with the data logger, capturing recordings as it sputters and lurches.  i was told that the data didn't show any specific faults.  I'm relying on the factory certified technicians to repair the bike.  Thus far, everything they've tried has been unsuccessful.  The field service tech said he's never come across anything like this.  They are supposedly going to start inspecting every wire, connector and component related to any code thrown.  Maybe they'll figure it out today; maybe next year.  Who knows?

One thing that has been a concern since the 110 was launched, and I don't see anything mentioned about H-D checking this out, is exhaust valves and guides.  If the exhaust valve is sticking and not fully closing in the cylinder throwing the codes, they can throw all the wiring and ECM's and BCM's in Harley's inventory at the bike and they won't fix it.  And that's just one possibility I pulled out of my nether regions based on the history of the engine since 2007.  One might hope Harley employees would know about this and other potential issues with that model engine.  As I noted previously, it's all about fuel, air, spark, and compression.  A compression and leak down test would have been one of my first steps when a simple fix wasn't forthcoming after hooking up their electronic diagnostic gear.  I see way too much dependence these days on the automated diagnostic tools and routines, and not enough logical analysis by the guy supposedly doing the diagnostics.  It's not just Harley shops, it's cars and trucks, HVAC, appliances, computers, you name it.  When the software tools can't point directly to the faulty part to be replaced, way too many "techs" are lost.  Obviously that also applies to the "factory tech".

Jerry

[Rooster]

Yes Jerry, big difference between a Technician and a Parts Changer. I found out years ago when I found to many parts on my shelves that had been installed and put back in the box. Then went looking for a Technician for a replacement.

[NORSEMAN]

Well, today they figured it out. It was the rear coil pack.  The second field service guy was the one who figured it out.


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[FLTRCVO]

Well, today they figured it out. It was the rear coil pack.  The second field service guy was the one who figured it out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Have you ridden the motorcycle and made sure it's not throwing any codes?

[NORSEMAN]

Have you ridden the motorcycle and made sure it's not throwing any codes?

No. I'm heading there to pick it up tonight or tomorrow. I hope I make it back home.  It's a 45 minute ride. 


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[FLTRCVO]

No. I'm heading there to pick it up tonight or tomorrow. I hope I make it back home.  It's a 45 minute ride. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, hopefully your motorcycles troubles are over and now you can enjoy your ride.

[Dan_Lockwood]

Good luck, you deserve a great ride home!

[Dan_Lockwood]

One month to find a faulty coil pack...  That's troubleshooting at its best!  OR worst.      

[Fired00d]

Well, today they figured it out. It was the rear coil pack.  The second field service guy was the one who figured it out.


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Glad they found it (hope what the fixed replaced was the culprit)... They (MoCo... and dealer) still owe you some compensation for your grief... I'd be asking for something big time (extending factory warranty "X" amount times over the time you were out of a bike... a big @$$ gift certificate, "X" amount of free services, etc., etc.).

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[NORSEMAN]

Thanks all for the camaraderie.  I'm happy to have my motorcycle back, but I'm still miffed at the dealer and MoCo.  I'm going to sleep on things, so I don't cut my nose off to spite my face.  But.....right now I would take a beating on trade just to have some other brand in my garage - and burn everything HD related in my closet, on the walls, etc...

[FLTRCVO]

Thanks all for the camaraderie.  I'm happy to have my motorcycle back, but I'm still miffed at the dealer and MoCo.  I'm going to sleep on things, so I don't cut my nose off to spite my face.  But.....right now I would take a beating on trade just to have some other brand in my garage - and burn everything HD related in my closet, on the walls, etc...

Happy trails brother

[Cat Eye]

Glad they got you back on the road and thanks for sharing   

[dayne66]

Thanks all for the camaraderie.  I'm happy to have my motorcycle back, but I'm still miffed at the dealer and MoCo.  I'm going to sleep on things, so I don't cut my nose off to spite my face.  But.....right now I would take a beating on trade just to have some other brand in my garage - and burn everything HD related in my closet, on the walls, etc...

I know how ya feel!!!

[RonandJanet]

Glad she is back up and running.  I can't believe that this wasn't something that could be found in the diagnostic system. if the part swapper should have swapped this out. Just hard to believe. I can imagine how you feel. 

[guppytrash]

Thanks all for the camaraderie.  I'm happy to have my motorcycle back, but I'm still miffed at the dealer and MoCo.  I'm going to sleep on things, so I don't cut my nose off to spite my face.  But.....right now I would take a beating on trade just to have some other brand in my garage - and burn everything HD related in my closet, on the walls, etc...

You have every right to feel this way.  It's unfortunate that they get away with this. 
You are not alone!

[longlast]

Well, today they figured it out. It was the rear coil pack.  The second field service guy was the one who figured it out.


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After all that and all the chit that was replaced, it turns out it was spark related and the dealer couldn't figure that out. I think you should be looking for a new dealer or a HD work shop with some better mechanic.

Thanks all for the camaraderie.  I'm happy to have my motorcycle back, but I'm still miffed at the dealer and MoCo.  I'm going to sleep on things, so I don't cut my nose off to spite my face.  But.....right now I would take a beating on trade just to have some other brand in my garage - and burn everything HD related in my closet, on the walls, etc...

I can relate to your frustration but at the end of the day it was only a coil fault,... compounded with faulty Dealer Ship Mechanics.
They should have, from what you described gone for plugs, wires, coil as a starting point. When you said they changed the cams then the harness it was sounding more like a witch hunt. I would have given them some choice words being all that time and it only being a bad coil..

It was a interesting thread. Glad it's sorted out.   

[NORSEMAN]

Update:
I went for a ride to Key West and back from my home in SW Virginia the week of 18 July.  The bike didn't do well.  I had some warning signs; occasional backfire, hard starting, and some other electrical shenanigans.  I took the bike in for an early service, new tires, brakes (since they had the wheels off anyway), and a general look-see.  I got to the lowlands of South Carolina when the XM started acting up.  Intermittently would loose signal.  That problem only got worse riding into Georgia and northern Florida.  The XM became unusable due to "no signal", even though it was flat and clear line of sight to the sky (satellite).  When I woke up in South Beach, Miami, the bike didn't recognize my fob.  I brought along some fresh batteries for the fob, as per usual on longer rides.  Changed out battery and no joy.  I had my second fob along.  Changed battery in it and no joy.  Tried another new battery in the first fob.  No joy.  I googled the pin procedure, and did that.  I would get three digits into the five digit code, and the screen would blank and go dead.  Four digits in, blank out.  Did that silly process about five times, and finally started.  I rode down into the Keys and continued to re-start the bike with the pin.  Same issue with the display blanking out as I entered the pin.  It was a struggle to get the bike started every time.  Made it to Key West.  Woke up in the morning and the bike recognized the fob.  Yay!  Started back north, but then more radio issues.  It started with clipping in the sound; I could hear the instruments but not voice.  Then the music faded to nothing, with any source (FM, AM, BT).  Continued north and then the ammeter started swinging between 14 and 16 amps.  The needle would move vigorously, back and forth.  Then the little odometer/tripmeter/gear indicator display in the speedo started dimming.  It would wash out completely, so I couldn't see remaining miles to empty, etc.  I made it home, albeit a quiet ride.  I took the bike into Roanoke Harley Davidson the first Friday I was back.  I wrote down all the problems I've had with the bike, including the month long repair issue I had in August of last year.  I told them I think there was an electrical issue that needed sorted; most likely a ground problem, as that's the only thing I can think of that all systems share in common.  The dealer ordered a bunch of parts.  Took a week for the parts to arrive, then they had to fit the bike into the service schedule.  Three weeks in, last week, the dealer had all the new parts on the bike, but needed to take the bike on a longer ride to confirm all repairs were a success.  It rained on Monday and Tuesday, and the dealer doesn't ride customer's motorcycle the rain for safety reasons (yeah, SMH).  In the meantime, I told the dealer I thought the bike fit the criteria of a Lemon per the Commonwealth of Virginia's laws.  They gave me a quote on a trade, at my request, but the numbers were not very good.  I sent a FedEx letter to Harley Davidson Motor Company, requesting they buy it back.  I called HD Customer Care, and asked them to start the process on buying the bike back.  I have had zero call-backs from Harley Davidson in Milwaukee in over three weeks.  I've called them repeatedly.  I hadn't heard from the dealer since they called in week two, so I gave them a ring last Friday.  I was told that Harley Davidson in Milwaukee had called them on Wednesday (this is last week) to tell them to stop work on the bike.  I've now been without my CVO for four weekends, this time.  I called HD Customer Care again yesterday.  Was told no update; the case has been sent to the Consumer Affairs department, but the manager was leaving for the dealer show in Vegas and he didn't know when she would be able to address my issue.  I asked if there was any timeline, and he just asked that I have patience. 
I've owned this CVO for 13 months, and it has been out of service for nearly eight weeks during this period.  I expected a premium motorcycle and a premium customer service experience when I purchased this CVO.  I've had neither. 
Thought I would let others know of my experience, and let it inform you as you wish. 

[TN]

NORSEMAN, sorry for all your troubles with the flagship series from HD, I'm tired this morning so I have no additional rant. 


Good Luck Sir



TN

would you buy another?

[DCFIREMANN]

Update:
I went for a ride to Key West and back from my home in SW Virginia the week of 18 July.  The bike didn't do well.  I had some warning signs; occasional backfire, hard starting, and some other electrical shenanigans.  I took the bike in for an early service, new tires, brakes (since they had the wheels off anyway), and a general look-see.  I got to the lowlands of South Carolina when the XM started acting up.  Intermittently would loose signal.  That problem only got worse riding into Georgia and northern Florida.  The XM became unusable due to "no signal", even though it was flat and clear line of sight to the sky (satellite).  When I woke up in South Beach, Miami, the bike didn't recognize my fob.  I brought along some fresh batteries for the fob, as per usual on longer rides.  Changed out battery and no joy.  I had my second fob along.  Changed battery in it and no joy.  Tried another new battery in the first fob.  No joy.  I googled the pin procedure, and did that.  I would get three digits into the five digit code, and the screen would blank and go dead.  Four digits in, blank out.  Did that silly process about five times, and finally started.  I rode down into the Keys and continued to re-start the bike with the pin.  Same issue with the display blanking out as I entered the pin.  It was a struggle to get the bike started every time.  Made it to Key West.  Woke up in the morning and the bike recognized the fob.  Yay!  Started back north, but then more radio issues.  It started with clipping in the sound; I could hear the instruments but not voice.  Then the music faded to nothing, with any source (FM, AM, BT).  Continued north and then the ammeter started swinging between 14 and 16 amps.  The needle would move vigorously, back and forth.  Then the little odometer/tripmeter/gear indicator display in the speedo started dimming.  It would wash out completely, so I couldn't see remaining miles to empty, etc.  I made it home, albeit a quiet ride.  I took the bike into Roanoke Harley Davidson the first Friday I was back.  I wrote down all the problems I've had with the bike, including the month long repair issue I had in August of last year.  I told them I think there was an electrical issue that needed sorted; most likely a ground problem, as that's the only thing I can think of that all systems share in common.  The dealer ordered a bunch of parts.  Took a week for the parts to arrive, then they had to fit the bike into the service schedule.  Three weeks in, last week, the dealer had all the new parts on the bike, but needed to take the bike on a longer ride to confirm all repairs were a success.  It rained on Monday and Tuesday, and the dealer doesn't ride customer's motorcycle the rain for safety reasons (yeah, SMH).  In the meantime, I told the dealer I thought the bike fit the criteria of a Lemon per the Commonwealth of Virginia's laws.  They gave me a quote on a trade, at my request, but the numbers were not very good.  I sent a FedEx letter to Harley Davidson Motor Company, requesting they buy it back.  I called HD Customer Care, and asked them to start the process on buying the bike back.  I have had zero call-backs from Harley Davidson in Milwaukee in over three weeks.  I've called them repeatedly.  I hadn't heard from the dealer since they called in week two, so I gave them a ring last Friday.  I was told that Harley Davidson in Milwaukee had called them on Wednesday (this is last week) to tell them to stop work on the bike.  I've now been without my CVO for four weekends, this time.  I called HD Customer Care again yesterday.  Was told no update; the case has been sent to the Consumer Affairs department, but the manager was leaving for the dealer show in Vegas and he didn't know when she would be able to address my issue.  I asked if there was any timeline, and he just asked that I have patience. 
I've owned this CVO for 13 months, and it has been out of service for nearly eight weeks during this period.  I expected a premium motorcycle and a premium customer service experience when I purchased this CVO.  I've had neither. 
Thought I would let others know of my experience, and let it inform you as you wish.

WOW just WOW!!!! This has been a nightmare for you. I had an electrical problem on my 14 CVO Limited last week. I blew the accessory fuse and had no radio, seat ,grips ect. Dealer in New Lisbon Wisconsin got me back on the road.

Good Luck!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[J.D.]

OP I'd suggest that you consider soliciting legal advice at this point.

[Cat Eye]

I would stick to my gun for a new bike.....this is not how it should be......but what ever you do...don't buy a VICTORY!!!

[OBB]

I would stick to my gun for a new bike.....this is not how it should be......but what ever you do...don't buy a VICTORY!!!

New bikes were just released, They're hideous. That new Indian Elite is looking pretty good right about now Joe. And $3k cheaper than a new SESG too.

[NORSEMAN]

The local dealer was able to take the bike on a long ride (100 miles, lol) to confirm the parts they replaced fixed the various issues.  While out on the confirmation ride, the bike fob quit communicating with the bike.  He was able to get it running by using the pin,  but then the shifter broke.  Keep in mind, I don't even have 10K miles on the bike.  They replaced the pin, but had to order another fob.  It's almost comical.  I'm happy that I purchased a BMW S1000XR for a backup, so at least I'm on two wheels.  Sad that one needs a backup bike to stay riding, having purchased a top of the line Harley Davidson motorcycle.
Today is Thursday, 24 August.  When I called the dealer yesterday, they confirmed that the Harley rep is scheduled to be at their shop today, to look at the bike.  I'm planning to run down to the dealer this afternoon, with hopes of having a discussion with the rep. 

[Robmay]

Incredible. It’s been almost 2 months since your last post. What’s the scoop? Any updates?

[iski]

This post reads like a nightmare.  Hope you get this straightened out, Norseman.  Nobody deserves to go through all of this just to "ride & have fun."  Time for the MoCo to step up and do the right thing by you has long since passed.

[Para Bellum]

Incredible. It’s been almost 2 months since your last post. What’s the scoop? Any updates?

He hasn't been on here since Aug 24th.  Maybe he gave up on Harleys?   

[OBB]

Incredible. It’s been almost 2 months since your last post. What’s the scoop? Any updates?

He hasn't been on here since Aug 24th.  Maybe he gave up on Harleys?   

He traded it in on a new Fatbob with the 114. Not sure of details of the trade as I wasn't going to be nosy. I actually stopped by that dealer while on vacation a few days ago and the Demon was nowhere to be seen.

[grc]

He traded it in on a new Fatbob with the 114. Not sure of details of the trade as I wasn't going to be nosy. I actually stopped by that dealer while on vacation a few days ago and the Demon was nowhere to be seen.

It must be just me and my peculiar way of looking at things, but I still have a hard time understanding Harley riders who just trade in defective bikes on another Harley, sometimes several times over a decade like some people on this site.  How exactly does this kind of behavior cause the manufacturer to take quality and reliability seriously, when they can make additional sales and profits off their lousy quality?  Harley has made a killing over the years thanks to this kind of blind brand loyalty, and it doesn't exactly make a strong case for competitors to try to produce higher quality and more reliable products to capture market share from Harley.  Too bad Yugo didn't find a way to appeal to Harley riders, they might still be in business.

JMHO- Jerry

[windjammer]

I guess they don't call you a grouchy old fart for nothing!

[Para Bellum]

I guess they don't call you a grouchy old fart for nothing!

I know you're just making a joke, but I want to emphasize his point.  Maybe he is (I am too), but he has a good point.  How much Kool-Aid do you have to drink (or how many brain cells do you have to kill) to block the grouchiness caused by MoCo screwing us and then we say "May I have another one?"  I'm not sure I want that much brain damage.

Jerry's analysis is right on the money--HD makes even more sales and profits by producing poor quality, then not fixing the problems, when we trade one problem-filled bike for another.  They have no incentive to improve.

Another thing: Jerry puts his money where his mouth is...note how long it's been since he gave the MoCo any new business.   

[mark]

I know you're just making a joke, but I want to emphasize his point.  Maybe he is (I am too), but he has a good point.  How much Kool-Aid do you have to drink (or how many brain cells do you have to kill) to block the grouchiness caused by MoCo screwing us and then we say "May I have another one?"  I'm not sure I want that much brain damage.

Jerry's analysis is right on the money--HD makes even more sales and profits by producing poor quality, then not fixing the problems, when we trade one problem-filled bike for another.  They have no incentive to improve.

Another thing: Jerry puts his money where his mouth is...note how long it's been since he gave the MoCo any new business.   

I too agree.  I'm past the point where I HAVE TO RIDE BRAND X.  Especially if Brand X has been a disappointment.  All those that had trouble with their HD and that caused them to traded it in on another - the dealer and HD make out like bandits = made profit on two new sales, plus the money they'll make on selling the trade-in.  That's a win - win - win.  BTW, did Yugo have a motor clothes department?   

[ultrarider123]

I would also like to agree here.  Einstein is credited for this quote but not sure he did/didn't.  However "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”....just like buying another new HD expecting rainbows and unicorns.

The more I look at the current offerings even with the new motor and even though I've been riding something HD off and on since I was a teen, the more my mind is made up as this '15 was my last new HD.

And Norseman, if you did trade for the 114 Fatbob to get out of all that trouble, I hope this new one gives you much better service and zero problems, sir....

[Chief2505]

I was one of those kool aid drinkers, had a new 12 Ultra Classic that was a lemon, nothing but problems with that bike and HD refused to fix the biggest one, an engine that sounded like a diesel! So what did I do? I traded it for a 13 CVO, really took it in the shorts! At the time though I looked at Indian, didn't like the look. I test drove a Victory and it was not comfy and the wife didn't like it. Just could not buy a Honda!  I was so desperate to get away from that 12 that I traded for another HD.

Bought a 16 CVO because my 08 Ultra broke down on me 300 miles from home. I cannot complain about the 08, that was the first mechanical issue it had in 8 years and 50,000 miles.

Now though I am selling my 13 CVO because well I bought a convertible and don't want or need 2 bikes and a convertible!

[ultrafxr]

I hear you and what you say makes sense but to many folks this is not a decision of the head but of the heart. I want to ride. I enjoy riding . . . and long distance touring. My motorcycle is not a utilitarian vehicle it is an escape device. And as such it must meet many requirements of comfort, performance, enhancements and beauty. Like some others I and my wife are just not moved by other brands which may be technically superior but fall short in many other ways. Would I like my Harley to be bulletproof?  Hell yes. But even if it’s not it is still a wonderful machine. JMHO.


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[Robmay]

I hear you and what you say makes sense but to many folks this is not a decision of the head but of the heart. I want to ride. I enjoy riding . . . and long distance touring. My motorcycle is not a utilitarian vehicle it is an escape device. And as such it must meet many requirements of comfort, performance, enhancements and beauty. Like some others I and my wife are just not moved by other brands which may be technically superior but fall short in many other ways. Would I like my Harley to be bulletproof?  Hell yes. But even if it’s not it is still a wonderful machine. JMHO.


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Very well said Jerry. I just wish the MOCO would treat their customers better.

[grc]

Very well said Jerry. I just wish the MOCO would treat their customers better.

I think we all can agree with that wish.  Sadly, they haven't had to treat customers well because the customers haven't given them reason to do so. 

Jerry