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Author Topic: Beehive Valve Springs  (Read 3021 times)

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johnsachs

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Beehive Valve Springs
« on: December 20, 2017, 06:45:52 PM »

 Another one bites the dust.
More and more I'm gaining a major dislike for beehive springs. "I know a few things because I've seen a few things."
This one is from a 124 S&S HC crate motor. Owner is NOT a hammer. 5500 miles, and boom. Don't want to hear that GM, etc., etc, uses thousands of them(they use thousands of valve lifters also) and don't have the problems that the Harley world has with them.
Checked the assembly of the opposing head, and that was spot on. .650" lift spring, installed height 1.870", 160 lbs. on the seat.
John
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Finster101

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2017, 06:16:23 AM »

John, what do you think is causing it?  I'm the guy who mentioned the GM thing because I'm a GM tech and just don't see a high rate of  failures.  I'm not trying to slam anyone just trying to figure it out.  Is it spring rate, metallurgy, or just plain poor QC.  The same goes for the lifter issue.

James
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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2017, 06:29:37 AM »

Could the part just be sourced from a low quality Chinese Mfg?
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Dan_Lockwood

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2017, 07:52:13 AM »

Just a couple questions.

Is it true that on our "stock" 110", '09 version, has too much valve spring pressure?  Is it possible that this "may" be part of the lifter failures?

Now over the years in auto industry, the Bee Hive springs have had great success as John has stated.

So for STOCK 110" motors, would bee hive along with new lifters be a good and safe combination?

I see failures of the bee hive in high lift situations and just thinking that in normal stock lifts, they may be a help.

Thanks in advance for the thoughts.
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ultrafxr

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 11:52:00 AM »

Just a couple questions.

Is it true that on our "stock" 110", '09 version, has too much valve spring pressure?  Is it possible that this "may" be part of the lifter failures?

Now over the years in auto industry, the Bee Hive springs have had great success as John has stated.

So for STOCK 110" motors, would bee hive along with new lifters be a good and safe combination?

I see failures of the bee hive in high lift situations and just thinking that in normal stock lifts, they may be a help.

Thanks in advance for the thoughts.
Dan, I am definitely not a wrench myself but I've had four 110 failures and talked to numerous techs whose input I value and respect.  The consensus is that there is indeed very high valve spring pressure that may lead to failures.  Seems plausible to me since similar lifters don't seem to fail nearly as often or as quickly in other applications.  Others of course may well have diffing opinions but no one has conclusively been able to point to the root cause of the 110 problematic failure rate.  It may very well be a 'perfect storm' of several things that in and of themselves might not be troublesome but in combination they are.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 11:54:25 AM by ultrafxr »
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2002FXDWG3

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 11:57:46 AM »

.650" lift is a lot for any valve spring.
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skratch

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 12:13:14 PM »

so it seems to me, from my non-mechanic pov, that the high lift of the 255 cam is the underlying cause of a lot of these failures.  if thats the case, what would be a good cam to use for someone who is perfectly happy with the 'stock' performance of their bike?

i'm only 'half-worried' about it right now, being under esp.  but when the esp expires, would definitely take a look at making this motor as reliable as possible.
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bakon

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 04:28:35 PM »

so it seems to me, from my non-mechanic pov, that the high lift of the 255 cam is the underlying cause of a lot of these failures.

255 Is Not High Lift In Modern 110 Head.  .555 Lift.
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Will

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 05:23:53 PM »

Not only lift but ramp profile needs to be considered, among other things (i.e. spring preload, seated force).

IMHO anything above .550" is "big" for a roller lifter + pushrod engine.
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fastfreddy

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 06:05:00 PM »

i had the B hives working with a 625 lift cam and never an issue in 38k miles... or with the S&S lifters w/limiters, i must have some dumb luck or what. or is the set up work have a lot to do with longevity,
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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2017, 07:29:03 PM »

.650" lift is a lot for any valve spring.

The spring that failed is rated for up to .650" lift.  Not necessarily the lift of the cam.
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2002FXDWG3

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 07:31:47 PM »

Understood
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grc

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 07:48:02 PM »


I can't help but wonder if these failures are related to a common manufacturing source with a less than stellar quality record.  The photo's I've seen of failed parts all look the same, with the break in the same place.   :nixweiss:

Jerry
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johnsachs

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2017, 09:53:42 PM »

I don't know how many manufacturers are involved in producing beehive springs. I know that I've seen 3 different brands break including factory production 88" - 103"
IMO, I don't feel that the Screamin Eagle dual springs have too much pressure on the seat or at max lift if set up properly. They seem to be set up properly when used by the MoCo on production bikes. Some of the MoCo optional (catalog) beehive springs DO have too much tension. They don't find their way on production bikes. I have checked their stage 4 beehives ( with 40,000 miles), and find them to be edgy like 210 on the seat on a1.875" intake valve, and a 1.570" exhaust valve.
As to why they fail, IDK  :nixweiss:. I see some beehive springs lean when removed, and the spring seat is shiny about a third of the way around.
Lifters, I must be lucky, haven't had many failures come in, and I have some customers that are real hammers.
 CVOSTU, big man ,cruises at 90 mph, likes to play, and a high mileage rider. 2 bikes NO lifter issues, CVO dual valve springs, high mileage.
John
 
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longlast

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2017, 10:55:26 PM »

I can't help but wonder if these failures are related to a common manufacturing source with a less than stellar quality record.  The photo's I've seen of failed parts all look the same, with the break in the same place.   :nixweiss:

Jerry

I thought the same thing as soon as I saw the photo.
In all my wrenching days ( not on bikes) any broken springs I've come across have been middle top or bottom, more middle and top then bottom though.

I can't help but wonder that maybe riding style could be part at play, ( not meaning to knock any ones riding) such as more spring failures on a bike that is being shifted at higher rpm them one being shifted at lower rpm. Perhaps the springs can't handle being pushed on high rpm.
The fault doesn't seem to be happening across the board on the 110s and the milage doesn't appear to be a factor either.
I've been around motors in the 100 of thousand hours on them with no spring issues but haven't been subjected to high rpm.
I could be totally wrong but I think springs break due to higher rpm there not designed for. I would put in springs that are designed for higher rpm if I had to do a replacement.


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