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[scagnetti]

So for the first time I'm letting a trusted indy shop touch my bike and want some advice on what possible mods would be a good idea. I have been told by people in the know don't let the dealer service dept touch it. 2 days ago I pulled the tank off my FXDSE Dyna and installed Doherty Machine mystfree breathers which wasn't a big deal, however in the process I gouged the rear lower rocker box cover real bad, my first real FU, and now it needs replacing. I'm not feeling confident enough pulling the breathers back out, all the goodies in the rocker boxes, then push rods myself. I have decided to let a local indy shop with a good reputation do it. While he is in there I have already decided to have all 4 rocker box cover and base gaskets replaced as there is an "A" part number now. The head gaskets aren't much further so I thought knowing they have been an issue why not get him to do those as well since they also have been updated with an "A" now. And make sure I have no clearance issues. Then I started stupidly reading up on this site about bolt in Stage II combos and am now thinking why not go ahead with another cam and rods? I have read of a couple SE ones and then of course, Zippers, Freedom and Woods. I am only interested in bolt in kits that can use the OEM top end parts already there with no head work or new pistons and such. Just a cam and rods if possible that will not hurt the motor's durability. Seems not many have ventured into the Stage II realm of the 110's yet. And then what about getting my crank/pinion runout checked as that seems another issue. My main questions are while my guy is in that far what mods would you have done and how much labor would be involved? I just installed a Doherty Power Pacc and Rinehart 2 into 2 pipes this week. I will either add a SERT or Thundermax as well. I've already got the tank/console and rocker covers off so that will save me some. Thanks in advance for any and all replys. You guys are knowledgeable as hell on this site and I've learned so much already.

[Unbalanced]

Scagnetti,

First you need to decide where you want your power, the freedom comes in later and runs longer than the Zippers and the Zippers comes in quicker and lets off sooner.   The Woods has a longer duration much like the 251 from harley except it has the ability to have a +4 timing gear which could move the power down for you if you wanted more lower.

Once you decide that when they change your cam to whatever it is going to be they can check your pinion run out really really quickly and easily for you.    Depending on how many miles you have on the bike at this point I may have missed that in your post you may want to consider lifters / oil pump replacements if you have a fair amount of miles on the bike already.

Also note the stage 2 which you say you were considering is pistons / cam so it is probably not in your choice factor since you said you do not want to do pistons yet.   But if your changing head gaskets to be pro active you will want to check the ring gaps on your existing pistons and make sure you have no scoring on the pistons that are in there currently.   It is worth the sanity check while your there and doing the head gaskets.

If your deciding to go with the Thundermax I would highly recommend going with their cam they have a map already made up.   If you go with the freedom cam you will need to do some map modification for the thundermax.  If you go witht he Power Commander then Freedom can help you out with a map on that.   If you go with the SERT your going to need to get a good dyno tune with your choice of cam.

Off the line the Zippers is quicker, mid / top the Freedom wins your on a light bike you may consider the middle of the road in the screaming eagle 251 or the Woods cam with gear.   

I have not tested the last 2 in a 110 so I can't lend you any advice there other than I have had the 251 in 2 different bikes and it was always a good running cam (95" and a 103").

As far as the woods goes after talking to Bobby Wodds a few weeks back with Rhino he tells me that it is the same as his 6hg (103") cam just made for the 110's now and if that is the case it is also a good running cam, the advantage I like with it is the fact I can move the timing down with the +4 degree, but I am on baggers so I want to move the torque down a bit   on a dyna you may not need to due to weight differences etc.

Once you decide where you want to run I think you will be at a point where you will have narrowed your choice down to 2 cams and then its where you feel most comfortable and also what method of tuning your going to go with for the bike.

Freedom Cam = hd 18400-03 perfect fit / adjustables
Zippers Cam = Adjustables
SE 251 = hd 18401-03 perfect fit / adjustables
Woods Cam = adjustables

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

One thing that I see is lack of the tq in the "normal" riding range. If you look at the RPM range that the avg guy rides in . After looking at thousands of hrs of run ,....what you will see is that the largest amount of riding time is spend in the 2-3 thousand rpm range.  

Second a stock 110 is in the low 9.1 range( based on varinace in chamber cc and PDH "piston deck height" ) so when choosing a cam you look at a few things the cams have to offer and THEN you ensure that the engine is able to properly support the cam. What I am saying is that a engine that does not have enough compression will end up producing a better mid and upper range power number on the dyno. But back to RPM riding range,.. myself would choose a cam that makes more tq in the range I ride in over one that produces a larger overall number. WHY?? well you spend so little time in that upper rpm range that is only looks good on paper, also one thing that goes unnoticed is rate of acceleration. This item can be seen on a dyno, in simple terms the question is asked " how long does it take to get to a certain speed or rpm number. If two engines both make the same numbers but one can achive it faster, that bike will win.

Now I understand that most of you do not build your bike to race but let's be truth full here we all like to wick the throttle now and then ( of course only at approved locations Ha Ha) SO what you feel is tq and rate of acceleration.

Where this is leading is this,..... A bike with a cam that is matched to your current compression ratio will provide more seat of the pants tq, and more fun. Over caming engines is a extremely easy thing to do. As well a common thing done today, we pull cams that are too large way too often. We install a cam that is suited to that current comp ratio re tune the bike. The owner will look at the dyno sheet and not have a smile, BUT when he rides the bike they will very quickly change there mind as the bike "feels" stonger to then. SO in fact we have a engine that is making less PEAK numbers but we have increase the amount of tq in the ride range.

Look at the dyno sheets with cams that have a later closing point, but are being used in a engine that is not producing as much compression as the cam needs,. and you will that there may be a increase in tq in the lower areas, ( slight) but the engines does not build as fast and once it gets into the 3000 range it starts to work. Now that is not stating all but from cams that are bolt in 110 cams. I have looked at other sheets as well myself have dyno'd many customers bikes with a bolt in cam for a 110. I will not state who's bolt in cam it was as that is not the issue. This is a issue of VE, you are unable to fill the cylinder efficiently in the low rpms due to the fact the cams later closing point is bleeding off compression, but as we increase rpm we build better VE.  Tq is nothing more than push on the piston with increase compression you have more push in a simple state term. Within reason.

 

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

So back to the real question at hand, what cam is a bolt in that will work very well with the low compression of a stock 110.   All cams have a sweet spot where they really shine. With increase in cubic inches you have more fudge room than a smaller inch engine. Point in fact a 95 inch engine with andrews 37 and a static compression of 9.8.1 will really start to pull hard in the 2800-3200 range. Use that same cam in our 98 engines and we see that power come on in the 2500-2800 range. Same cam in a 103 engine and we see it pull even lower.

So a engine with that low 9 compression will work with many cams but what are you willing to give up to have more peak power?? Adding a cam that will enhance the lower rpm range in my opinion and not worry about what the peak numbers do,.. would be my choice. This is based on us building 200 plus kits a year. With that amount of data base we know how they run, what kind of tq curve you have in the riding range.

Math will tell us that a stock engine has a certain amount of static compression an along with that a certain amount of dynamic compression, which is based on the timing of intake closing point. Now the dynamic is the key to building a engine. It will tell us what the power range of the engine will be, what fuel type it will require, timing issues, compression release's needed or not, how it will hot restart. All these things and more come into play when choosing a cam shaft.

 You can trick an engine into thinking it has more compression than it has with a early closing point, IE the 255 cam but what happens is that engine pulls strong for only a short amount of given rpm due to the fact you run out of time to fill the cylinders as rpm's increase. We swap that cam with one with a later closing point, to enable the engine to pull harder longer,  more duration goes along with that and you then will have to increase compression to properly support the cam.  IF you do not you have a engine that seems a bit stronger in the low range and then gets into a area with higher rpm's and pulls stronger.

SOOOO   what do you do,.... well these 110's respond very well to head work as the ex side of the head is poor, so head porting is a great way to create more power, as well slightly increasing static compression. Add the cam to the mix and there you have a engine that will produce better low end power and pull nicely through out the rpm band.


So what cam that will be up to you in the end as you are buying it and you have to make the choice. But please do not get caught up in the peak number thing, the dyno is only a tool for tesing and is not real world so to speak. I have tested cams in my own 124 from larger to smaller and have made very good numbers. But the cam I have in the bike now is smallest cam that we tested. It stil runs strong and makes great numbers. The smaller cam is more fun for normal riding. The larger cam softens the low end and makes me have to think more when riding to keep it in a rpm range where the cam responds better. Maybe I am lazy but last time I checked riding was to have fun not have to work at it.


I realize that i have not said "this cam is the one" the reason is that there are cams that we have used that work very well, and others that where not what I would call a good bolt in for several reasons. And am not looking to get into a pissing match over whos cam is the best. If you look at the number the cam choice will become more clear. Cams that have a closing point in the mid to late 30's would be a nice match for the compression of a stock 110. Increasing that closing number will produce more power that I know but at what exspense to the tq at lower rpms??



I hope this is of some help.  If any would like to see some easy  layouts of static vs dynamic compression vs cam closing let me know be happy to post that.

[SOKOOLJ]

I hope this is of some help.  If any would like to see some easy  layouts of static vs dynamic compression vs cam closing let me know be happy to post that.

It would be great to see what you have. Thanks to you, and UNBALANED, for the above posts, you have put this issue into perspective for me personnaly. I am lokking for the low end tq myself and not into the big #'s. 90% of my riding is two up, with me pushing a solid 205 and my bride 150. Thanks

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Well advice is free ,... Feel free to call , we are always happy to help our a fellow rider with some soild tech advice, nothing worse than a a build that you spent hard earned money and it fails to work as you wanted.
We do this with  tons riders out there and it is always fun to chat about bikes . LOVE MY JOB!!!!!
928-445-3473

[scagnetti]

Guys, thanks alot for the replys. Bike only has several hundred miles on it so lifters and oil pump a non-issue. Seems I need to do some homework on cam selection for sure. I'm thinking I want my power in the area where it will be most useful for everyday riding and worry less about my peak numbers. I would say from around 2300 to close to 4500 rpm. But I would really like to have a cam that shined across the board with decent low and high end grunt and pulled nicely through the whole range without dropping off. I talked with Dan at Zippers today and he informed me that the 575 cam is just as good in the 110' as the 103' it was designed for. We also talked about the pinion/crank runout issue and he said that the 575 was only available in a chain drive because of the problem, no gear drive for the 07's. I'm also wanting to know if there is another fix for the runout problem than splitting the cases and doing a timken conversion. Any way to reinforce that critical area. I just don't have that kind of $. One thing is for sure I will be getting the runout checked before ordering any parts.

[jeffj]

Wow, sounds like some wonderful mods forthcoming,
To bad you don't get to ride it during this time of year 

I am sure after all the mods that you will enjoy your new ride 


jeffj

[Unbalanced]

Scagnetti,

I think there is 3 choices on this one, there are more such as going bigger etc, but here is how I would look at it

1   no pinion run out problems leave it alone put cam in and ride it.
2.  There is a pinion runout problem motor needs replacing
3.  Timken conversion  / weld it up balanced it

Really isnt to many choices in this one.   The question is if your tearing it down for the Timken you might as well reinforce it and have it welded and balanced so that you eliminate the chance for run out problems later.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

The R&R cam plate that we use will fix many of the pinion issues. It is a new billet plate along with a cover. It use's your oil pump . R&R tested one on a bike that had 11 thou run out that blew the pump up. They did nothing with the crank, replace the pump and installed the new plate and cover. They used a gear drive set up. They ran the bike for 1500 miles pulled it back down the pump was in mint shape and there was no gear noise at all. It also stops any misting by the way it is vented. We have used it and have had nothing but 100% postive results

[Unbalanced]

On bikes under warranty if the pinion was out why the hell would you consider doing this vs getting it take care of under warranty.   After that was done I could see possibly using a product like this, but can not see knowing you have a problem putting a band aid on top of it and spending money to do it when the factory should be making it right.

Then if I had been bitten by this I would most likely go the route again of a proven technology being the timken bearing and going from there.    It would allow me to do future mods and builds without worry of my bottom end and then maybe consider this inside the cam cover as well.   I am not saying it doesnt have a place, but if I were .011 out I wouldn't be looking at this to resolve the problem to start.   

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

I agree a pinion out 11 thou is not something you want to use but it does prove that the product works. As to the warranty issue some dealers are taking care of customers other are not. Some customers have grown tired of the bike being at the dealer for warranty work. You can only take so much and after a point you say what else can I do keep this up or pay to fix it out of my own pocket and let the past go and look forward to many miles of trouble free riding.

The plate was also set up to provide bushing's in the cam plate to stop the wearing issue that is going on with the 07 plate. As well the other items that are mentioned in the product info sheet.

It may not be for everyone but it does work as stated and has been tested to extreme levels. If your pinion is ok then it will only help with ensureing you do not allow the pinion to become out of true by provided the correct amount of support needed. Look at the bikes that have oil pumps go out I donot think they where bad from the factory but became out of true due to lack of support. As well the lakc of timken does not help and the MoCO is not going to install a timken under warranty as they are not stock. Look back at the early T/C engines there where no crank issues, or oil pump problems, cam tensioner issue sure but that is another story.

It really falls on the shoulders of HD that they have produced a engine that has been made to a standard that has fallen lower as time goes on.  Why they though removing the bushings from the cam plate would be a good idea is way beyond me. But we see issue with the gear drive set ups as well . The fit on the cam's are not tight at all they are loose and the cam can move around in the plate. The gear drive set is not to blame but again back to the cam plate. 

We have been doing many more timkens latley than last year many are 96 inchers & 103 and some are 110's. I have several dealers that are working with the customer and replacing the crank, and pump, plate, and the customer only pays for the cost of the timken itself. That is not a bad deal really. I just received a fax today from a HD dealer in NY that is sending my two sets of cases for timken. One is a stock 110( warranty work) the other is being converted to a 110. At least they are keeping the customer up to speed and telling them that this is the way to go.

[StreetDog]

GMR- PERFORMANCE , have you guys tried the SE 258 cams in the 110 yet? I have and this is what I got with the following mods. Had the SE 258 cams adjustable pushrods, SERT, D & D Fatcat 2 into 1's, the new pistons for the 110 out early this year with 10.25 to 1 and .030 head gaskits for a combined compression of 10.50. The pistons are hard-anodized and Teflon impregnated to help with the heat issues. Also had the heads cleaned up some, slightly ported intake and ex. to within 1/8 of the valve size ( I think that's what I was told ), also in behind the valves and smoothed edges in bathtub area, cleaned up very nice, also had the rocker boxes clearanced which solved the clearance issues. (WAS HITTING BY THE WAY, FROM THE FACTORY ). The crank runout was very good I was told at .0025. The numbers I got are ; torque starts out at slightly below 80 at 2000 rmp's and rises sharpely to 95 at 2600 rpm's and then steady to 100.73 at 3000 rpm's and peaks out there and stays there to 5400 before very slowly dropping off. This is somewhat less than I was thinking it should be. HP starts low on the chart at 2000 rpm's and rises steady and very straight to 106.5 at 5800 rpm.s, hitting 100 HP at 5200 rpm's and jumps up staying there til it starts dropping at 6000 rpm's. The only thing I've noticed is it starts out alittle sluglish or hesitate ( what is causeing that) til 2800 rpm's then kicks in and will pull you off if not holding on good. Which is a good feeling. I am also getting some popping through the exhaust when letting up on throttle. Do you think this was a good build and right way to go or not. Do you think the quite baffles will reduce the popping. Is there something else I need to do or can do for better throttle response? Otherwise I am very happen with the results. Any suggestions? Comments?

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

I think the 257 cam is a better choice vs the 258 cam in my opinion. I have tested both in 103 set ups and the 257 always shines. Take a look at a andres 67 you will see they are very close. So gear drive is a option if you like that cam style.

On another note I am getting a new style cam plate for the guys that want to stay chain driven , that will have a cam bushing , vs the stock version that does not. This stock plate is a issue in it's self as the lack of bushing are allowing the cam to wallow around, as well we are seeing witness marks on the back isde of the plate where the cam is being forced into the plate. Going to a gear drive stops that but the bearing to cam plate fit leaves much to be desired.

The cam is coming along nicely should have them in 4-6 weeks?? I hate waiting as I have a test mule here ready to go now. We are going to install the cam in a stock 110, dyno, then do pipe, a/c kit , dyno, then ported the heads raise compression slightly and dyno. Should be a great test with some excellent feed back data. WIll keep ya posted as things progress

[Rooster]

GMR, I sent you a pm awhile back did you get it?