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[HarlyFan]

My bike will be hear in two weeks and I am trying to get some opinions on which tuner to use for the 08's. One dealer I spoke to said the Thundermax was the best and the other dealer in town said it will void the warranty and suggested the SERT. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I will be going with the Rinehart True Duals and the Ness Big Sucker unless there are better suggestions.

[hdfatboy]

My bike will be hear in two weeks and I am trying to get some opinions on which tuner to use for the 08's. One dealer I spoke to said the Thundermax was the best and the other dealer in town said it will void the warranty and suggested the SERT. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I will be going with the Rinehart True Duals and the Ness Big Sucker unless there are better suggestions.

First off.  . . Congrats on the new scooter and welcome to the site.

Not certain how much has changed or remained the same from 2007 to 2008 but it sounds as though the '08s are a bit different (ECM atop the battery or in that general neighborhood, ABS where the ECM was, etc.) The only suggestion I can give is to go with the ECM that the tuner recommends. Typically they will recommend what they use and they will use what they are most familiar with (& good at) I would also suggest doing some legwork in the research department to learn who all your local tuners are and try to get oppinions from those who have used their services. Only my oppinion, but I feel that the SERT, when tuned properly is the only way to go.  Although many on this site have used and are very happy with the T-Max & Autotune!

If the dealer is telling you that the T-Max will void your warranty  I'd start searching for another dealer to do the service/tune/etc. This one will leave you in the lurch should anything else go wrong. Know your rights (ie: Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act - The only way that a warranty claim can be
denied is if the dealership has proof that your maintenance practices, parts &/or modifications caused the problem for which you are requesting warranty coverage). The dealer that I use has made good on every claim I've brought tho their attention and I'm cureently running a Ness Big Sucker, open K&N filter, S&S Cams, & D&D Fat Cat tuned with a SERT.

Get the parts you want, find a good tuner and enjoy the ride!!

[djkak]

My bike will be hear in two weeks and I am trying to get some opinions on which tuner to use for the 08's. One dealer I spoke to said the Thundermax was the best and the other dealer in town said it will void the warranty and suggested the SERT. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I will be going with the Rinehart True Duals and the Ness Big Sucker unless there are better suggestions.

It may be awhile before the folks at Zippers have an ECM available for the servo controlled throttles on the 08' touring models.

djkak

[Rhino]

And other dealers will tell you that the SERT will also void the warranty too.  And other dealers will say bring it on, we will support anything we install. 

But leaving ALL of that aside, I have found the SERT to be an overpriced complicated device, requiring a fair amount of expertise on a dyno*. I also can say that even with a SERT, sold by Harley, will allow changes to the bike like pipes and whatnot, but in any event, if you use the maps from Harley that match add on components (more$$) they will also comply with EPA, which = no solution to heat = no real tuning benefit for performance...unless tuned on a dyno*. more $$. 

Harleys changes each year are an attempt to isolate all aftermarket to them. They make the aftermarket vendors scramble and spend money to accomodate the changes they make. And I don't see it getting any easier either.  In the eyes of MOCO, an all Harley owned aftemarket would be their own dream, whilst being a nightmare as the aftermarket has to re-tool whatever to make it work.

Fortunately, many are working hard for these mods, including Zippers and the TMAX-AT system, and others too.  But it is going to take a few months IMO to catch up.  And to me, it would be worth the wait to be able to make the bike run better, not being held hostage by the whims of the MOCO.

Of course, the Harley dealers love it, means more parts and doo dads they can sell, keeping more of it for themselves, rather than the aftermarket getting any of those dollars.  At the same time, they (MOCO) can protect themselves from CARB (California Air Research Board, the most powerful dictatorial enforcement agency in the history of humanity) by bowing down to their demands.  When I saw a California gas powered lawn edger with a catalytic converter on it, I knew the end was near.

But the bottom line, times are changing for Harley sold performance part choices. Guess what-they may never be sold by Harley ever again for the newer bikes unless that stoplight thing is green in the catalog.  EPA Racer. Yup.  Rant Over

Rhino(athundermaxfanwithafastbike)

One dealer I spoke to said the Thundermax was the best and the other dealer in town said it will void the warranty and suggested the SERT.

[HarlyFan]

Rhino, I agree with what you are saying. I did talk to Zippers yesterday and they confirmed that the TMAX has not been released for the 08's and it could be awhile. So I guess this is my question now. Since I want the pipes installed when I take delivery should I go ahead and have them install the SERT until Zippers can release their product? Are there any problems that anyone is aware of changing the origanal settings with one tuning device and then changing to another down the road?

Thanks!

[Hoist!]

Rhino, I agree with what you are saying. I did talk to Zippers yesterday and they confirmed that the TMAX has not been released for the 08's and it could be awhile. So I guess this is my question now. Since I want the pipes installed when I take delivery should I go ahead and have them install the SERT until Zippers can release their product? Are there any problems that anyone is aware of changing the origanal settings with one tuning device and then changing to another down the road?

Thanks!

You can install the SERT, if they make that yet, and then pay for a tune. Then you can replace it afterwards. The TMAT is a replacement ECM. So your bikes stock ECM would be removed, w/the SERT in it, and replaced w/the TMAT. I don't know why you'd wanna do that once you have the bike tuned w/the SERT. You're good to go then. Why change it? TMAT is an alternative to tuning, so they say! Hoist!

[grc]

Rhino, I agree with what you are saying. I did talk to Zippers yesterday and they confirmed that the TMAX has not been released for the 08's and it could be awhile. So I guess this is my question now. Since I want the pipes installed when I take delivery should I go ahead and have them install the SERT until Zippers can release their product? Are there any problems that anyone is aware of changing the origanal settings with one tuning device and then changing to another down the road?

Thanks!

HarleyFan,

Only problem I can think of is the wasted $$$.  A SERT is "married" to your ECM, so it's not one of those things you can later sell slightly used on e-bay.  A less wasteful solution would be a PowerCommander, since it is less expensive up front and it can be resold if/when you change to the T-M.  I'm not sure if the PC is available yet with the connectors for the '08 models, but I would imagine it should be very soon.

If you change the settings in the ECM with a SERT and then later decide to go with the T-Max, there would be no issue since the T-M totally replaces the stock ECM.

Jerry 

[miker]

I prefer the sert...It does not emulate, interrupt or other wise try and trick the ecm into operating differently.  Once married to the ecm, it actually modifies the ecm parameters through the pc software. JMO.

Miker

[Deuce Bigelow]

I prefer the sert...It does not emulate, interrupt or other wise try and trick the ecm into operating differently.  Once married to the ecm, it actually modifies the ecm parameters through the pc software. JMO.

Miker

neither does the thundermax.......

[miker]

Is it expensive?  I didn't do much shopping, just wanted to get the bike cooler...

Miker

[Deuce Bigelow]

it's not cheap, the best price I have seen is around $730.00, the SERT or PCIII is a lot cheaper......

it all depends on what you want to do, the SERT will require tuning to fully take advantage of it, the PCIII also requires tuning...but both will run fine by just using the base MAPs.

[Midnight Rider]

Has anyone checked out this company?  http://www.technoresearch.com/

This device is like a SERT, but can be used on other bikes with the purchase of an additional key for the other bikes

[Rhino]

The difference is that the ThunderMax actually replaces the entire ECM, whereas, like stated, the SERT is married to the stock ECM, and allows changes to be made. The problem with this is a dyno is required, even if a stock map for your config is offered, because it still must comply with EPA. The only way to work towards performance is again, on a dyno if using the SERT.  The ThunderMAx allows a nice map for tune with most common packages, and the plus is the autotune part, which uses the wide band sensors to maintain differences in altitudes and temperatures, etc.  The PC is the one that adds on to the stock ECM and allows a workaround by 'tricking' the stock ECM.  It is mostly a fuel adder.   But they all remain popular, do your research carefully, and decide. Of the 3 the TMAX IS the most expensive, because it does include the sensors and harnesses and boards for the Autotune part. Best price I saw was 699 at Eastern Perf. 

Rhino

[grc]

The difference is that the ThunderMax actually replaces the entire ECM, whereas, like stated, the SERT is married to the stock ECM, and allows changes to be made. The problem with this is a dyno is required, even if a stock map for your config is offered, because it still must comply with EPA. The only way to work towards performance is again, on a dyno if using the SERT.  The ThunderMAx allows a nice map for tune with most common packages, and the plus is the autotune part, which uses the wide band sensors to maintain differences in altitudes and temperatures, etc.  The PC is the one that adds on to the stock ECM and allows a workaround by 'tricking' the stock ECM.  It is mostly a fuel adder.    But they all remain popular, do your research carefully, and decide. Of the 3 the TMAX IS the most expensive, because it does include the sensors and harnesses and boards for the Autotune part. Best price I saw was 699 at Eastern Perf. 

Rhino

Rhino,

The PC is an add-on tuning device as you noted, as opposed to a total ECM replacement.  However, it has been many, many years since it operated by "tricking" the ECM, or was "mostly a fuel adder".  Early EFI tuning devices basically took sensor readings and modified them to richen the mixture, for instance by making the ECM think the engine was running cooler than actual (back in the day, we used to just add a resister into the circuit from the coolant temp sensor to the ECM on our cars to richen the mixture across the board). That is not how the PCIII works; it takes the output signal from the ECM and modifies it based on rpm and throttle positions in a look-up table (map).  The current technology allows for reducing fuel as well as adding fuel, changing the fuel settings for starting, an accelerator pump feature, resetting the rev limiter, advancing or retarding ignition timing, etc. 

Since all the alternatives work best with individual dyno tuning, as opposed to one size fits all "canned" maps, the PC remains the most cost effective of the three tuning devices mentioned.  It has the lowest initial cost, and generally requires much less time to tune than a SERT or T-Max.  It also has by far the largest base of qualified tuners.  The SERT and T-Max are more sophisticated and can ultimately control more parameters, but for most folks the PC is more than sufficient.

Jerry

[Rhino]

No argument as explained....
Rhino

Rhino,

The PC is an add-on tuning device as you noted, as opposed to a total ECM replacement.  However, it has been many, many years since it operated by "tricking" the ECM, or was "mostly a fuel adder".  Early EFI tuning devices basically took sensor readings and modified them to richen the mixture, for instance by making the ECM think the engine was running cooler than actual (back in the day, we used to just add a resister into the circuit from the coolant temp sensor to the ECM on our cars to richen the mixture across the board). That is not how the PCIII works; it takes the output signal from the ECM and modifies it based on rpm and throttle positions in a look-up table (map).  The current technology allows for reducing fuel as well as adding fuel, changing the fuel settings for starting, an accelerator pump feature, resetting the rev limiter, advancing or retarding ignition timing, etc. 

Since all the alternatives work best with individual dyno tuning, as opposed to one size fits all "canned" maps, the PC remains the most cost effective of the three tuning devices mentioned.  It has the lowest initial cost, and generally requires much less time to tune than a SERT or T-Max.  It also has by far the largest base of qualified tuners.  The SERT and T-Max are more sophisticated and can ultimately control more parameters, but for most folks the PC is more than sufficient.

Jerry

[SBB]

I'm impressed!

Rhino threw down on the PC.

GRC ( Jerry) clarified the operation of the PC.

Rhino didn't argue.

As someone that has been here for a while, I can say GRC is the man!

Thanks Jerry for your impute!

S
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    B

[rednectum]

Rhino,

The PC is an add-on tuning device as you noted, as opposed to a total ECM replacement.  However, it has been many, many years since it operated by "tricking" the ECM, or was "mostly a fuel adder".  Early EFI tuning devices basically took sensor readings and modified them to richen the mixture, for instance by making the ECM think the engine was running cooler than actual (back in the day, we used to just add a resister into the circuit from the coolant temp sensor to the ECM on our cars to richen the mixture across the board). That is not how the PCIII works; it takes the output signal from the ECM and modifies it based on rpm and throttle positions in a look-up table (map).  The current technology allows for reducing fuel as well as adding fuel, changing the fuel settings for starting, an accelerator pump feature, resetting the rev limiter, advancing or retarding ignition timing, etc. 

Since all the alternatives work best with individual dyno tuning, as opposed to one size fits all "canned" maps, the PC remains the most cost effective of the three tuning devices mentioned.  It has the lowest initial cost, and generally requires much less time to tune than a SERT or T-Max.  It also has by far the largest base of qualified tuners.  The SERT and T-Max are more sophisticated and can ultimately control more parameters, but for most folks the PC is more than sufficient.

Jerry

allow me to add this concerning the pc3usb: when in advanced mode, you can tune front/rear independently both fuel and timing!

[miker]

Excellent thread lads, thanks for the edu.
I have dyno tuned sert but not futzed with it since it was tuned.



Miker

[Rhino]

Hey I am not surrendering, but GRC explained it very well, and he explained clearly and presented good options. Personal preferences, ease of this and that. Expenditure, expected results, etc. therefore I remain biased, but I do like seeing a good thought-out comparison once in a while too ya know.

Rhino(pssstchoosetmax)

I'm impressed!

Rhino threw down on the PC.

GRC ( Jerry) clarified the operation of the PC.

Rhino didn't argue.

As someone that has been here for a while, I can say GRC is the man!

Thanks Jerry for your impute!

S
  /
    B