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[leoniru]

TC;
Is bung insertion a concern for you because both your bikes (listed in your signature data) are pre '07 -- meaning they do not have the narrow band O2 sensor ports(bungs)?
Wouldn't the stock narrow band O2 sensor ports on the '07 SERKs suffice, or are they located too far downstream from the exhaust port for unadulterated exhaust gas sampling?

leoniru

[Midnight Rider]

I don't know the english name for them. These are inserts with thread on the inside.
You put them into the exhaust and than with a special tool you squeeze (?) them. This way they will stay in place. You can close them after use by using a normal bolt with cupper washer.
You only have to take of the heatshields. Everything is covered when mounting the heatshields again after tuning.


The upper right one.

Cool...I'll have to check into those...good alternative, as I do not want to remove the exhaust from the Vrod again.  On my Ultra, the exhaust will be off at the point where I need to tune again, so i would just weld the bung, though I do like the idea of this smaller alternative.

[Midnight Rider]

TC;
Is bung insertion a concern for you because both your bikes (listed in your signature data) are pre '07 -- meaning they do not have the narrow band O2 sensor ports(bungs)?
Wouldn't the stock narrow band O2 sensor ports on the '07 SERKs suffice, or are they located too far downstream from the exhaust port for unadulterated exhaust gas sampling?

leoniru

leoniru...yes, that is the concern.  Neither bike has a useful bung.  The ultra has RH TD's on it, but only one bung, and the location is useless. If/when I do the motor work on the 103, I'll have the pipes off, so will install something then.  The V has no bung at all, and in fact, we had to drill a 5/8" hole in the baffle to get the copper tube sniffer in there.  The V is much more consistant front to rear cylinder, but I would still prefer an individual tune on each cylinder, and if the cost factor on this is system is roughly the same, and I can have the ECM permanently programmed, it seems a better alternative.  Nobody around here can tune a SERT worth a damn, and this "key" is about the same cost as a PCIII.

I am almost certain that the stock bungs on the 07 would be useful for tuning in this application.

[leoniru]

I --- like you --- am attracted to the fact that this system works by reprogramming the existing stock Delphi ECM.

Do I sense a 'group buy' in the near future?


leoniru

[Midnight Rider]

I --- like you --- am attracted to the fact that this system works by reprogramming the existing stock Delphi ECM.

Do I sense a 'group buy' in the near future?


leoniru

To my knowledge, there is only one tuner in Alabama, located in the southern part of the state.  I am interested in his shop for other purposes as well, so getting a tune on the V may be a good "test run".

What is your location, Leon?

[leoniru]

Northeast Pennsylvania.

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

Leoniru:
Even on 07 (closed loop) bikes we use this method.
Much easier AND we can test the closed loop version.

On Fatboy 07 btw it is almost impossible to switch the rear sensor to a wideband one due to the frame.

[Midnight Rider]

Northeast Pennsylvania.

There are several dealers and indy's in your state who use Direct Link to tune...

[grc]

Terry,

The inserts shown in the post from Vosselman are called Riv-Nuts, and are installed similar to a pop rivet.  Used for lots of years in the auto business to add threads in a blind hole for things like mirrors on trucks.  There are a couple things about using them for an O2 sensor however; the excess material will be inside the pipe, creating nonstandard exhaust waves and restriction that could affect tuning and performance, and they are designed to fit a flat surface so making a good seal to the curved pipe could be a problem.  In looking for a sample to illustrate what I'm talking about, I stumbled across the following page on the web.  It shows exactly what I'm talking about, albeit on a Yamaha pipe.   http://www.fjr1300.info/howto/rivnut.html

Jerry

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

GRC, we at first had the same feeling/thought.

Concerning sealing to a round pipe: when squeezing the rivet, the exhaust pipe will get flat around and under the rivet. We haven't seen any sealing problems yet. BTW DON'T use aluminium rivets! The pictures in the website show a toy-tool and I think alu rivets. We use M8 steel rivets and need a big and strong tool....

Protruding into the pipe.
Before using these rivets, on our own testbike we have used 2 bungs (M18x1.5) per header for testing purposes. 1 used for a wideband sensor for a selfadjusting system, 1 used for the AFR sensor for the dyno. All 4 wideband protruded into the pipe. We could only measure 2 HP loss!
So only 2 small rivets, instead of 4 big widebandsensors, won't have a lot of influence.


We still think this rivet system has more advantages than disadvantages.
But maybe someone comes up with an even better solution.... we are willing to learn....

[Midnight Rider]

Terry,

The inserts shown in the post from Vosselman are called Riv-Nuts, and are installed similar to a pop rivet.  Used for lots of years in the auto business to add threads in a blind hole for things like mirrors on trucks.  There are a couple things about using them for an O2 sensor however; the excess material will be inside the pipe, creating nonstandard exhaust waves and restriction that could affect tuning and performance, and they are designed to fit a flat surface so making a good seal to the curved pipe could be a problem.  In looking for a sample to illustrate what I'm talking about, I stumbled across the following page on the web.  It shows exactly what I'm talking about, albeit on a Yamaha pipe.   http://www.fjr1300.info/howto/rivnut.html

Jerry

Learn something every day...thanks, Jerry.  Was wondering about the sealing, but it V is not experiencing problems, that is a good sign.

This Direct Link stuff is very interesting though, and appears to be a viable alternative to SERT and PCIII's.  No Tmax for moi....

[grc]

Learn something every day...thanks, Jerry.  Was wondering about the sealing, but it V is not experiencing problems, that is a good sign.

This Direct Link stuff is very interesting though, and appears to be a viable alternative to SERT and PCIII's.  No Tmax for moi....

Terry,

I ran across the Direct Link web site last year and thought the same thing - looks like a good alternative.  I didn't pursue it any further because I was afraid I would have the same problem I had with the T-Max; lack of local tuning support.  Now that I have a PCIII that's working fine, I don't see a need to change.  Maybe if I buy another bike - hmmm, did they say it works on BMW's?

Jerry

[Midnight Rider]

Terry,

I ran across the Direct Link web site last year and thought the same thing - looks like a good alternative.  I didn't pursue it any further because I was afraid I would have the same problem I had with the T-Max; lack of local tuning support.  Now that I have a PCIII that's working fine, I don't see a need to change.  Maybe if I buy another bike - hmmm, did they say it works on BMW's?

Jerry

As a matter of fact, I think they do support Beemers 

Here are some interesting things:  Directly programs the ECM; Key is permanently linked to the bike, but at about 2/3's the cost of SERT; adjusts all parameters SERT is capable of, perhaps more.  I wonder who builds the SERT and writes the software for HD?   

[d o g o l s]

I don't know the english name for them. These are inserts with thread on the inside.
You put them into the exhaust and than with a special tool you squeeze (?) them. This way they will stay in place. You can close them after use by using a normal bolt with cupper washer.
You only have to take of the heatshields. Everything is covered when mounting the heatshields again after tuning.


The upper right one.

Riv-Nut

[grc]

As a matter of fact, I think they do support Beemers 

Here are some interesting things:  Directly programs the ECM; Key is permanently linked to the bike, but at about 2/3's the cost of SERT; adjusts all parameters SERT is capable of, perhaps more.  I wonder who builds the SERT and writes the software for HD?   

I had the exact same thought when I first saw it.  You can bet that H-D didn't design and build the SERT themselves, it was farmed out to a supplier as a "black box".  What would you like to bet that these folks, or someone working for them, had something to do with that?

Jerry