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[110tHunDer]

 
A lot of you guys know I had the Zipper's 575 gear-driven cams installed by Bumpus H-D in Memphis, TN last fall.  The bike ran great in Maggie Valley while we were there for the CVO event, but Unbalanced noticed some smoking from the rear cylinder (Rinehart true duals) from time to time.  Then, throughout the trip to the AMA Superbike races in Birmingham, AL this past April, the bike was feeling like it was "missing" in the 2,000 - 3,000 rpm range under a light or steady throttle, and I experienced a lot of popping under decel, until the bike was good and hot (50+ miles into a ride).  As if that was not enough, more people there (JR, TCnBham, 07hd110 and others) witnessed more smoking coming from the left pipe from time to time, and while sitting in line to do the parade lap, I was finally able to see it myself.

To make a long story short, I did not ride the bike much since returning from B'ham because we ended up relocating for my job, but every time I got on the bike I was getting more and more annoyed with the poor driveability of the hesitation/miss and the (sometimes very loud) popping on decel.  So, once we got settled in the new location here, I decided to try to have something done about it and ended up taking it to the local dealer here, Andrae's H-D in Champaign, IL, after some help from JR and Brian Rose, the tech at Bumpus who did the original tune, who did a little bit of "scouting" work for me about the talent there (another long story).

So, to try to get to the point here . . . after all of this my bike has been on 3 different dynos.  It was on 2 different dynos with SE air cleaner, SE slip-ons and a Stage I calibration, one in Peoria and the other in Memphis, and then again on two different dynos after the installation of the Zipper's cams, Feuling oil pump & lifters, and Rinehart true duals, Memphis and here in Champaign.  I thought you might find the variance in the dyno sheets quite interesting, as I did and maybe we can have some discussion about the reasons why all these are so different.

First, the dyno sheet from the dealer in Peoria where I got the bike, after the installation of the SE air cleaner, SE one-piece slip-ons, and Stage I calibration:

[110tHunDer]

 
Next up, the baseline dyno run from Bumpus H-D in Memphis (same configuration as above) and also the final dyno run after the installation of the cams, oil pump & lifters, and Rineharts:

[110tHunDer]

 
Note how close the baseline (blue line) is in the Bumpus graph vs. the one from Peoria:

Peoria Max HP  91
Peoria Max TQ  98

Peoria Max HP  89
Peoria Max TQ  98

Makes sense, same tune, similar results on two different dynos, right?  Also, stellar improvement in both HP and TQ adding the cams and pipes.  HP all the way up to 105 and TQ at 117 - WHOOO HOO!

OK, then.  Now here are the results from the dyno run of just the other day at the dealer nearby:

[Unbalanced]

Brian,

1.  Did anyone look into the smoking of the engine?

2.  Are all 3 dyno's dyno jet 250i's with the latest software on them?   What is the weight of each of the drums?

3.  Could any of them possibly of had one of the fan's blowing in the area of your intake

4.  Was anyone sitting on your bike while the dyno's took place or were they on the side of the bike?

5.  Can you say with certainty that the bike was lined up with the tire and the top of the drum and not on either side of the drum when they were running the pulls on the dyno?

6.   Can you say with certainty that the rear tire had full tread and was at 40 lbs psi ?

7.   Where all of these dyno's closed rooms or open to atmosphere or vacuumed?

8.   Are you sure you have no intake leaks or exhaust leaks anywhere?

9.   Do you have dyno runs from both cylinders from all 3 dyno's.   

Sorry lots of questions, but the main ones are the first 5.   This is why I always ask people that are around me here to go to a dyno like Bragging Rights.   I ask this to be able to compare numbers to give validity, because this anomoly is very common.   I even told Howie that when he finally gets down to florida I would love to get him to have a run done by Jim so that we can see how Jim's dyno compares to joes cycle's dyno.

One of the members on the site had his bike dyno'd in gainesville HD and when he came down to see bragging rights his numbers dropped significantly I think he said like 15 torque and 15 horsepower over what he had seen from gainesville. 

I would love to gather the data and then pose the same question to dynojet or matt grosch and see what they say about why the disparity of numbers.

-harry

[110tHunDer]

 
Yep, just 90 HP and 101 TQ on the baseline run with the exact configuration that Bumpus got the strong numbers with.

Then, in the re-tune, they demonstrate getting another 8 HP and 8 TQ just from tweaking the A/F ratio.  Now, the bike's driveability is MUCH improved and the popping on decel has been totally eliminated . . . and, they say the smoking from the rear cylinder was caused by the rich A/F ratio at that cylinder . . . SO, I am a happy camper, but the BUTT DYNO says there is no noticeable difference whatsoever in the way the bike runs now compared to before the re-tune.

So, a couple of pieces to the puzzle that I have noticed while pondering this is one, Bumpus may have tuned the bike without the air cleaner on (see photo below of the bike hooked up to their dyno).  This could be part of the reason they showed higher HP and TQ numbers and also why the A/F ratio was rich on yesterday's baseline run which was done with the air cleaner on.  And, two, notice that the baseline run (red) on the latest chart was done in fourth gear, but the final line (blue) with the 8 HP and 8 TQ improvement was done in 5th gear.  Could these two things explain some of the differences?

I am sure there are inherent differences in the dynos themselves, but it seems there are a lot of "tricks of the trade" being done to show improvement that may not actually be there in real life.  Who knows, but I find it a little difficult to believe that the slight adjustment in the A/F ratio that is shown in the last graph would be enough to get another 8 HP & TQ and that it may be more related to the run being done in 5th gear vs. 4th.

Like I said, the bike is really running great, so I am really pleased with the new tune that was done, and after a half hour ride, returned to the dealer to let the service manager know how happy I was.  But, the conclusion I've come to is that I will no longer place a lot of confidence or emphasis on specific numbers generated by a dyno, based on the experience with my bike.

Hey, JR, it looks like I may have to give my "100HP Club" shirt back to Bumpus?!

[Unbalanced]

Brian do you have a 6 speed?

If you have a 6speed you would pull a run in 5th not 4th.   If you have a 5 speed you would pull a run in 4th gear.

Yes they are playing little tricks to get numbers or make you believe they did something by running in 4th then showing higher numbers in 5th gear.  If it is a 5 speed.

Tuning the bike without the air cleaner is BS you won't run down the road this way and they can use the fans to help augment air flow.

Did they give you dyno runs from both cylinders cause if they didn't they didnt do you any favors until you can see both and compare the A/F.

BTW if they had not already done this to your map, you can usually gain 4-6 torque easily by raising the 100 percent throttle timing from 3000-5500 up 6 to 8 units with the race tuner or power commander.   Generally Harley's base maps are light on the timing.   

[110tHunDer]

 
Harry, I was working on my last reply when you posted your questions.  #1 is answered there.  As for the rest, I only witnessed the first dyno run (top sheet), and don't know all the details of the individual set-ups at each shop, or how each tech runs the dyno.  Naturally, that could cause some of the differences we're seeing.

I know you have been one of the ones most vocal about the differences from dyno-to-dyno, so I thought you might take some interest in this and have some good questions.  Unfortunately, I don't have all the answers, but the variability is pretty obvious here, particularly the current sheet compared to Bumpus.  As you point out, I wonder if these types of large differences exist with the big-name dyno guys, too.

[110tHunDer]

Brian do you have a 6 speed?

If you have a 6speed you would pull a run in 5th not 4th.   If you have a 5 speed you would pull a run in 4th gear.

Yes they are playing little tricks to get numbers or make you believe they did something by running in 4th then showing higher numbers in 5th gear.  If it is a 5 speed.

Tuning the bike without the air cleaner is BS you won't run down the road this way and they can use the fans to help augment air flow.

Did they give you dyno runs from both cylinders cause if they didn't they didnt do you any favors until you can see both and compare the A/F.

BTW if they had not already done this to your map, you can usually gain 4-6 torque easily by raising the 100 percent throttle timing from 3000-5500 up 6 to 8 units with the race tuner or power commander.   Generally Harley's base maps are light on the timing.   

Harry, the bike is a 5-speed, so yeah, all runs should have been done in 4th gear.  I did not get the dyno runs for both cylinders, but I did ask the service writer when I made the appointment if they would be tuning both cylinders individually and was told yes.  I asked the service manager (different guy) the same question today and was again told yes and given a brief explanation of the process they use of tuning the front cyl. first and then the rear.  He talked about having to take into account the different length of the rear pipe, so his explanation seemed legit and I believe both were tuned separately.  As far as the timing, I was getting some very slight initial pinging this afternoon in the heat and humidity when I dropped the hammer on it in both 4th and 5th gears, so it seems the timing adjustment may have already been done by them.  The bike has never had any pinging before, so it seems some advance must be there now.  The pinging was gone this evening when I rode it again.

[Tbone]

Brian,
I'm glad to hear you got things sorted out and you're happy.
When Neil tuned mine, he implied that temperature and humidity had a huge impact on numbers so my thinking is, if the bike is tuned under the worse case scenario, you're better off than the other way around.
Bob

[Unbalanced]

Tbone,

I agree humidity and temp play into this, but that is why they use SAE Corrected mode to help account at least for some of the differences.  It is not perfect, but from the same type of dyno manufacture I do not believe we should be seeing 10 hp and / or tq swings.   What I would really like to do is to find out who are the guys with conservative dyno's and who are the guys where the numbers just roll off ya know.


Brian,
I would love for one/some any of the guys that has used bragging rights or john golden to then go and just have a pull down at the other to compare then extend that to the shops that are most currently being used like latus, bumpus, charlotte, hal's hd, dr. dyno, carl's speed shop, speeds performance plus etc.      It won't account for all the weather changes, but might give us a good idea of accurracy.   I know bragging rights is a very conservative dyno number giving dyno.  I would love to see some of the guys that have had dyno runs elsewhere bring their bike here if for no other reason than giggles run it on his dyno only because it's one i know well.   I know most guys aren't going to jump out and pay the 35.00 bucks just to get a dyno sheet that will probably show lower than they have, but it is an idea.

Whether there is a length in pipe difference I am still not buying why they didnt give you a dyno sheet from each cylinder it wouldn't cost them a thing since they said they already tuned it.   They owe you at least a dyno run on the other cylinder for your own piece of mind to know it is tuned correctly.

I had some of this timing/fuel knock on my 07 bike recently and while everyone was saying tooo much timing pull it out, I took taking some fuel away and advancing the timing in the lower end say 1750 - 3000 range.  This didn't happen if i steadily rolled through the throttle, but when I went from nothing to WOT you would hear it or if you were in too low an rpm for say 3rd gear turned a corner and got on it, because you didnt down shift you would hear it.

I would not let this continue though whether it is a retard or an advance issue I would get it looked into.   Should take but a few minutes to realize which method will fix it add timing / take fuel   retard timing

Thanks for sharing the dyno sheets, you are right this is soemthing that bugs me.   They should be held to a common standard for final print outs whether it is STD or SAE just make it universal.

-harry

[Fired00d]

This goes along w/what I've been trying to convey to people for a long time... Dyno numbers are just numbers. Dyno's are a great tuning tool to get your bike running properly, but the numbers can be skewed to give those that are more concerned with "bragging rights" something to brag about. People should be more concerned w/a properly running motor then the numbers. If you have it tuned properly and you ride it and the "butt dyno" makes you happy, and you don't have any rideability issues then be happy.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Unbalanced]

Gary,

I agree to a point.   When you are paying for numbers by X builder it is good to know that when you leave his shop that the numbers you were shooting for were infact the numbers you paid to get.   Let say you pay a guy to give you 120/120 and you seem to have this at his shop, but then you go to 2 or 3 other shops and the numbers are 110/110.   Are you expected to be upset, are you just to take it because he gave you what he said he would on his dyno, or do you take the bike because it runs well, but not what you paid him for based on taking it other places?

This is the part that I have an issue with, not soley that the numbers differ by the day.   Heck 1 to 3 changes in the number not going to care about, but 10 is noticable by the butt dyno where 1 or 3 is not.

[grc]

This goes along w/what I've been trying to convey to people for a long time... Dyno numbers are just numbers. Dyno's are a great tuning tool to get your bike running properly, but the numbers can be skewed to give those that are more concerned with "bragging rights" something to brag about. People should be more concerned w/a properly running motor then the numbers. If you have it tuned properly and you ride it and the "butt dyno" makes you happy, and you don't have any rideability issues then be happy.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

I agree completely.  The way most shops have their dyno's set up, it's doubtful you could get the same numbers two days in a row with the same bike and operator.  Most make no effort to control ambient air temp or intake air temp/humidity/barometric pressure, and yet those items make a huge difference with an air cooled normally aspirated engine.  The SAE correction factors don't seem to help standardize the results like they should either.  I know from past experience that they work in a lab quality dyno cell where all the parameters can be closely monitored and controlled, but most DynoJet setups I've seen are far from a controlled environment.

IMHO, the only really important items on a typical DynoJet chart are the AFR and the shape of the torque curve.  If you're looking for bragging rights for your next bench racing session, I'd suggest you forget hanging the dyno chart on the wall and find a local drag strip that holds amateur "run what ya brung" sessions.  Hang the resulting time slip on the wall instead; at least that has some validity.

Jerry

[Fired00d]

Gary,

I agree to a point.   When you are paying for numbers by X builder it is good to know that when you leave his shop that the numbers you were shooting for were infact the numbers you paid to get.   Let say you pay a guy to give you 120/120 and you seem to have this at his shop, but then you go to 2 or 3 other shops and the numbers are 110/110.   Are you expected to be upset, are you just to take it because he gave you what he said he would on his dyno, or do you take the bike because it runs well, but not what you paid him for based on taking it other places?

This is the part that I have an issue with, not soley that the numbers differ by the day.   Heck 1 to 3 changes in the number not going to care about, but 10 is noticable by the butt dyno where 1 or 3 is not.

In the scenario you're giving I would have to say I would accept it as he's provided what he promised. If the bike is running well (tuned properly w/no rideability issues) then I would be happy. I wouldn't expect that mechanic/builder to travel around testing his build on several dyno's to give you an "average" number. More then likely the numbers he is predicting for the build are numbers he's seen previously from this build on his dyno. With all the differences in dyno's/dyno operators and all the "nature" (heat/humidity/altitude) provided differences I feel it's hard to compare dyno numbers from different machines/operators.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[erniezap]

120/120 on one dyno, but 110/110 on another?  This is a tough one due to all of the vaiables involved, but I would tend to be happy if the builder got the numbers from his dyno since that is what he was basing his estimate on.  Hell, if you wanted to be the "dyno king" by showing big numbers, put the big "top end" cam in the bike, remove the ari cleaner, and run 100+ octane racing gas and you'll get all fo the number that you want.  It would be useless since the bike would ride like chit on the 91 octane Califonia gas under normal conditions, but you'd have your bragging rights.   

Dynos are great for giving you before and after pictures of a mod, and for setting AFR.  After that, the butt dyno is what matters.

[Midnight Rider]

Brian...thanks for this informative thread, and Harry, thanks for confirming some of the thoughts I've had in recent months concerning all this Dyno run stuff.  I must say that when I got my bike tuned at Rod's Performance in Northern Alabama after I had installed the Rinehart's and dumped a canned map to get it up to him, that I was  bit disappointed in the results, as I was expecting numbers right around 100, but instead ended up with (rounding off) 98TQ and 94HP.  Rod has a nice dyno room, with huge ventilation fans on the roof, and a large intake in the front of the room...doesn't blow your hat off, but changes the air approx 6 times per minute.  Having worked in that field for many years, I could appreciate his room set-up.  Small fans were directed at both sides of the engine, but not directly at the intake.  He did tune both cylinders, doing the front first, then the rear.  The final "pull" was done with the sniffer in the rear cylinder.  One thing he did prove to me conclusively was how much difference the intake makes....after pulling the final run, he removed my filter and did another pull, gaining approx 3 units on both numbers.  His contention was that the regular SE backplate and 0800 filter are too restrictive for the 103 motors.  This is one reason I put the Doherty unit on the bike shortly afterwards, as it is a bit wider filter and has a better intake venturi, IMO.  The motor does seem to run better with it.

Other observations when he did the tune:  Rod is not a tall guy, but is stocky...probably a bit over 200lbs.  He did sort of sit on the left side of the bike when doing the tuning and the pull.  I assume this alone would make the numbers be a bit lower than if there was no weight on the bike?  Also, my air pressure in the rear tire (Dunlop) was 36psi, as I checked it the morning of the tune before I left the house.  He does use an SAE correction factor of 5.

So, I guess in hindsight, I at least got an "honest" dyno run, rather than inflated numbers by doing some of the things mentioned in the threads above.  I did not know to ask for seperate pulls from each cylinder after they complete the tuning of the rear.  Bottom line is the bike runs well, gets decent fuel mileage if I keep things under 70mph.  The only time I get a decel pop is when the bike is stone cold (I let it run a couple of minutes before going, then take it easy untill fully warmed up), or when I have run the rpm up to about 4K, then use the engine for braking...I then get one single pop out of what sounds like the front cylinder.

Rod also tuned my Vrod when I put the new pipe on a few weeks ago....again, I was hoping for larger numbers, but the drivablity is excellent after it's warmed up...a characteristic of the Revo is to stumble a bit when cold, but after warming up, bike runs great.  Comparing numbers to some of the other bikes over on the Vrod Forum, I seem low, but now think that it's just I got more "real" numbers, and others are reporting inflated ones.

Oh....PCIIIUSB's on both bikes.

Brian, glad you got a better tune, and some of your problems have been resolved...I didn't think you'd let the decel problem continue    Thanks for the information, and Harry, thanks for the education/confirmation concerning this whole business of Dyno numbers.

[110tHunDer]

. . . With all the differences in dyno's/dyno operators and all the "nature" (heat/humidity/altitude) provided differences I feel it's hard to compare dyno numbers from different machines/operators.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

That was basically the reason why I wanted to post the results of all 3 different dyno runs on my bike.  I used to think you could rely on the numbers, especially after Bumpus' baseline run was pretty much identical to what my bike turned  on the dyno in Peoria.  But, after seeing the latest set of numbers from another dyno which show the HP 15 lower and TQ 16 lower than what Bumpus gave me, it is obvious there are major differences in dynos and almost certainly some games being played to show large numbers.  Even on the latest run, I am having trouble believing the bike now has 8 more HP & TQ than before.  Those are numbers that the butt dyno should feel, and it is just not there.  Rideability is MUCH improved, in fact, nearly perfect now, but I definitely don't feel like the bike picked up 8 HP/TQ over where it was before.  To put it in perspective, that would mean that on Bumpus' dyno, the bike should now be producing 113 HP and 125 TQ.   No way!

[miker]

The "Seat O the Pants" tune can get you close too.. My pal has dropped big cash into his 106 S&S... nice motor, timkin, yada, yada, yada...
He fooled with his sert a bunch, viewed hot plugs after runnin it hard, tuned some more cells and had it runnin smooth & strong. 

Anal Retention set in and he dropped over 4 hours dyno time up the Space Coast somewhere and they tuned in 1 whopping ft/lb and 1 hp....
At least it made lots of hard pulls and didn't come apart!

If one sits on it long enough, the ass can become a sensitve testing device,  in my opinion..

Miker

[REGGAB]

The "Seat O the Pants" tune can get you close too.. My pal has dropped big cash into his 106 S&S... nice motor, timkin, yada, yada, yada...
He fooled with his sert a bunch, viewed hot plugs after runnin it hard, tuned some more cells and had it runnin smooth & strong. 

Anal Retention set in and he dropped over 4 hours dyno time up the Space Coast somewhere and they tuned in 1 whopping ft/lb and 1 hp....
At least it made lots of hard pulls and didn't come apart!

If one sits on it long enough, the ass can become a sensitve testing device,  in my opinion..

Miker

Agreed.  Had mine dyno'd just to get the tune right.  Numbers don't mean much to me.  As long as it is reliable and tuned for longevity, then performance takes a back seat.  Mine has plenty 'nuff power for me.  I don't care too much for the chain driven cams tho'.  Would like to upgrade to gears, BUT this whole pressed flywheel/crank runout deal has me questioning reliability and longevity ex post facto.  The bike is awesome as is.  At 18K+ miles, I'm beginning to worry about my tensioners, since I've been down that road before.  Was going to check them at 15K, but decided to postpone to 20K.  At 20K, they're getting replaced...........unless I gain enough education to switch to gears, which includes the necessity of splitting the case to weld the crank......in which case there's other stuff which may as well be done as long as it is torn down.  I'm so confused about this whole damn thing that I might just install new tensioners and call it "GOOD" until I hit 40K.

Henry

[hogasm]

Tbone,




Brian,
I would love for one/some any of the guys that has used bragging rights or john golden to then go and just have a pull down at the other to compare then extend that to the shops that are most currently being used like latus, bumpus, charlotte, hal's hd, dr. dyno, carl's speed shop, speeds performance plus etc.   



-harry

Harry, next weekend Bayside HD is having a dyno shootout. I am going to take Bessie to see if I can get a 100hp tee shirt,  and see how close or far apart John Golden's dyno is to theirs.

[Unbalanced]

Brian,

That will be a good comparison for those in your area.   Maybe while your down to get crash or to take a look at crash you can drop by Bragging Rights so we can get a comparison on Bessie's dyno's Golden / Bragging Rights.

What numbers did you have on Bessie from John after the last tune?

-harry

[Fired00d]

Note how close the baseline (blue line) is in the Bumpus graph vs. the one from Peoria:

Peoria Max HP  91
Peoria Max TQ  98

Peoria Max HP  89
Peoria Max TQ  98

Makes sense, same tune, similar results on two different dynos, right?  Also, stellar improvement in both HP and TQ adding the cams and pipes.  HP all the way up to 105 and TQ at 117 - WHOOO HOO!

OK, then.  Now here are the results from the dyno run of just the other day at the dealer nearby:

Brian,
I had remembered that Zippers had posted dyno runs/results comparing several different exhausts w/the 575 cams on the 103 motors. Your latest results are right there w/what they were predicting. You can see the posts here - 575 cam, and below is a copy of that dyno sheet.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[StreetDog]

 Hey Fired00d, the results of the Rineharts TD'S looks impressive, with more torque than the D & D Fatcats. The only concern I would have is that the torque comes in sooo late a @ 3000 RPM's. Or would that be contribuated to that 575 cam. I noticed you have that setup....can you tell the torque comes in late. Or is the driveability better than it appears? I'm just seaching for answers so I know how to go forward with mine. Looking for more torque, maybe with 58mm TB.

[Fired00d]

Hey Fired00d, the results of the Rineharts TD'S looks impressive, with more torque than the D & D Fatcats. The only concern I would have is that the torque comes in sooo late a @ 3000 RPM's. Or would that be contribuated to that 575 cam. I noticed you have that setup....can you tell the torque comes in late. Or is the driveability better than it appears? I'm just seaching for answers so I know how to go forward with mine. Looking for more torque, maybe with 58mm TB.

You can check out this post/thread for my dyno results - REDSHIFT 575 CAMS & OTHER PRETTY PARTS also others have posted their dyno results in that thread. Here is a link to the above thread on the old site since some of the text/pictures may be missing from software upgrade REDSHIFT 575 CAMS & OTHER PRETTY PARTS.

The torque starts rising about 2500 RPM, max's out at around 3800 RPM, and doesn't start dropping off until around 4300 RPM. I'm still running stock TB, only changes were what you see in my signature below. I'm pleased w/the way the bike runs and it's a significant difference from what it was before (Rineharts, SERT, & SEAC). My main reason for upgrading cams was to get rid of chain driven, and the performance enhancements w/o doing any other upgrades or mods (headwork/pistons) was a plus.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[110tHunDer]

Hey Fired00d, the results of the Rineharts TD'S looks impressive, with more torque than the D & D Fatcats. The only concern I would have is that the torque comes in sooo late a @ 3000 RPM's. Or would that be contribuated to that 575 cam. I noticed you have that setup....can you tell the torque comes in late. Or is the driveability better than it appears? I'm just seaching for answers so I know how to go forward with mine. Looking for more torque, maybe with 58mm TB.

Gary pointed you in the right direction in those other threads.  Just add to what he said, though, you can definitely feel the motor hit it's stride above 3,000 rpms with the Rineharts.  The thing really comes alive in the upper-rpm.  As it was described to me, the Rineharts are the more "hot rod" of the two pipes.  If you like to wind the bike out from time-to-time, you'll like the Rineharts.  If you prefer the low-end torque, you'll prefer the D&Ds.  I've spent some time on a D&D-equipped 2005 SEEG with the same mods and you can definitely feel the differences in the torque curves between the two bikes.  It pretty much boils down to your riding style, but like Gary, I don't feel that the bike is lacking in the low-end because it is still a lot stronger there than before I did the mods, even if it's not quite as strong as if it had the D&Ds.

[Hoist!]

Gary pointed you in the right direction in those other threads.  Just add to what he said, though, you can definitely feel the motor hit it's stride above 3,000 rpms with the Rineharts.  The thing really comes alive in the upper-rpm.  As it was described to me, the Rineharts are the more "hot rod" of the two pipes.  If you like to wind the bike out from time-to-time, you'll like the Rineharts.  If you prefer the low-end torque, you'll prefer the D&Ds.  I've spent some time on a D&D-equipped 2005 SEEG with the same mods and you can definitely feel the differences in the torque curves between the two bikes.  It pretty much boils down to your riding style, but like Gary, I don't feel that the bike is lacking in the low-end because it is still a lot stronger there than before I did the mods, even if it's not quite as strong as if it had the D&Ds.

You'll get both with the Fatcats with Performance Muffler instead of the Quiet Muffler. They make a quiet version of the Performance Muffler, but believe me, it's anything but quiet. I gave up on that quiet chit though! The bike runs way too good w/the Peerformance Fatcats!

Hoist!

[StreetDog]

 Hoist, I thought you are running the Quite baffle. Aren't there just three different baffles? The quite,standard, and the performance one. You did test all three didn't you. How did the Quite baffle do compared to the other ones?

[Hoist!]

Hoist, I thought you are running the Quite baffle. Aren't there just three different baffles? The quite,standard, and the performance one. You did test all three didn't you. How did the Quite baffle do compared to the other ones?

There are 2 Fatcat mufflers. The Standard one and the Performance one. Both are available in the Quiet version. They add fiber glass packing in the quiet ones. But it takes the tinnyness out of them and makes it sound a little deeper. I really like them. But they are pretty damn loud over 2500 RPM! They have an evil, wicked sound to them. And you can make them sound pretty damn obnoxious if you want/need to. I gotta tell you, people move out of the way when they hear it. They don't know what it is, or where it's coming from. And they move! It make lane splitting much easier!Definite bonus!

Hoist!

[StreetDog]

 Hoist , what's performance difference between the standard quiet and the performance quiet. I know it's alot louded with the performance pipe and seens like you would lose alittle torque down low with all that flow going out ( no backpressure ). Do these motors not require some backpressure? Or does the performance quite one just produce that much more power and torque?

[Hoist!]

Hoist , what's performance difference between the standard quite and the performance quite. I know it's alot louded with the performance pipe and seens like you would lose alittle torque down low with all that flow going out ( no backpressure ). Do these motors not require some backpressure? Or does the performance quite one just produce that much more power and torque?

That's not easily answered KD. The exhaust system should be a part of the matched components you're using to modify the bike. If you're only bolting on exhaust and open A/C, then tuning, I would say it might be too big to see any gain in performance. It might actually be worse. From my testing, on my motor, I needed the flow, in and out, to get the best performance. I believe we lost 6 ft-lbs and 4 HP with the Regular Quiet Muffler vs. the Quiet Performance Muffler. For larger engines, they make an even larger one called Borzilla. That would definitely be too large for a stock engine. It's not bigger is better. It's properly matching everything for optimum performance, if that's what you're after. Hell, if you just wanna make noise, put drag pipes on.

Hoist!

[StreetDog]

Hoist , you know everything I've have done to mine...you think performance with quiet baffle would be better?

[Hoist!]

Hoist , you know everything I've have done to mine...you think performance with quiet baffle would be better?

I don't remember if you did your heads. You had compression w/the SE pistons and 258 cams. Without headwork, I'd probably say go with the standard muffler. If you did headwork, I'd say use the performance muffler. What size TB do you have? If you haven't changed that, I think that's your bigger problem right now. If you did headwork, cams, big exhaust, you'll need at least 54 mm. Maybe bigger, depending on your headwork. I'm not the engine guru here. I just did my homework and listened to some good people, then decided what I wanted to do when certain parts became available to me. I'm just going by my own experience in what I suggest. I'm really into this chit and I understand it very well, but I learn more each day. And I've been doing this quite awile now.  But I'm no expert, nor am I a wrench. I'm happy to help, but get some other opinions from the real gurus here too.

Hoist!

[StreetDog]

There are 2 Fatcat mufflers. The Standard one and the Performance one. Both are available in the Quiet version. They add fiber glass packing in the quiet ones. But it takes the tinnyness out of them and makes it sound a little deeper. I really like them. But they are pretty damn loud over 2500 RPM! They have an evil, wicked sound to them. And you can make them sound pretty damn obnoxious if you want/need to. I gotta tell you, people move out of the way when they hear it. They don't know what it is, or where it's coming from. And they move! It make lane splitting much easier!Definite bonus!

Hoist!

Does anyone know the decisbles or the difference between the Fatcat Standard  and the Performance Quiet muffers? How loud is it?

[Hoist!]

Does anyone know the decisbles or the difference between the Fatcat Standard  and the Performance Quiet muffers? How load is it?

I'm finding out next weekend KD! These Performance Quiet ones are really loud. Maybe too loud. If I don't lose much performance with the Standard one, I'm switching them out. Man, a cop will hear me coming a mile away! And it doesn't thrill Binx too much either!

Hoist!

[StreetDog]

 That's what I'm thinking....toooo loud for the passenger. And is there any gain for that noise? I understand the Standard Quiet baffles will give you 2 to 3 more lbs of torque and HP vs just the standard ones. That's what the tech at D&D in texas told me the other day but I forgot to ask about the difference in the performance one vs the performance quiet one and those two vs the standard ones. From what I understand the best torque baffle is the standard quiet one. But with our mods the performance quiet baffle may be the best for torque and power. I'm not sure, do you know? But you do say they are tooo loud then hum.

[Hoist!]

That's what I'm thinking....toooo loud for the passenger. And is there any gain for that noise? I understand the Standard Quiet baffles will give you 2 to 3 more lbs of torque and HP vs just the standard ones. That's what the tech at D&D in texas told me the other day but I forgot to ask about the difference in the performance one vs the performance quiet one and those two vs the standard ones. From what I understand the best torque baffle is the standard quiet one. But with our mods the performance quiet baffle may be the best for torque and power. I'm not sure, do you know? But you do say they are tooo loud then hum.

I already preliminary tested them. But I wasn't there for it. There's no question that the Performance Quiet one out performed the Standard one. (And I have no interest in the non-quiet ones of either model. They sound too tinny for me.) And by more than 2HP/TQ on this engine. D&D 's claim is based on stock engines. The Performance one helps my motor by more like 4 HP/TQ. We're gonna try to tune some of that back in. If I can end up at 125TQ and 120HP w/the Standard Quiet Muffler, I'll take it. Rich 07 has the Standard one with SE 251's and SE 50 mm TB. The bike runs strong and sounds great. Nowhere near as loud as mine. But he doesn't have headwork. I really have to see the impact on my motor to tell. But the growl that you get when backing off of the throttle at 3 grand and above, is almost not worth giving them up for. I love that sound!

Hoist!

[StreetDog]

I already preliminary tested them. But I wasn't there for it. There's no question that the Performance Quiet one out performed the _{Standard one}. (And I have no interest in the non-quiet ones of either model. They sound too tinny for me.) And by more than 2HP/TQ on this engine. D&D 's claim is based on stock engines. The Performance one helps my motor by more like 4 HP/TQ. We're gonna try to tune some of that back in. If I can end up at 125TQ and 120HP w/the Standard Quiet Muffler, I'll take it. Rich 07 has the _{Standard one} with SE 251's and SE 50 mm TB. The bike runs strong and sounds great. Nowhere near as loud as mine. But he doesn't have headwork. I really have to see the impact on my motor to tell. But the growl that you get when backing off of the throttle at 3 grand and above, is almost not worth giving them up for. I love that sound!

Hoist!

When you mention the standard one are you referring to the standard QUIET one?

[rlavigna]

When you mention the standard one are you referring to the standard QUIET one?

This one: D&D Fat Cats w/Quiet Baffles, (D&D P/N is 502-32BQ).  The "Q" stands for the quiet baffle.

[110tHunDer]

 

[rlavigna]

Had to jump on that one.

[StreetDog]

This one: D&D Fat Cats w/Quiet Baffles, (D&D P/N is 502-32BQ).  The "Q" stands for the quiet baffle.

Thank's for clearing that up. And do YOU know the decible difference?

[rlavigna]

That's for clearing that up. And do YOU know the decible difference?

No. They just sound deeper and not nearly as loud as the performance baffle on Howie's bike.