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[sadunbar]

reference picture 4, is that compression leakage from 4 to 7 oclock? also curious as to why all studs are oily?

those look like httc heads, are they stock or add on? lastly, when disassembling, were head bolts loose?

thanks

rednectum,

There was no compression leakage.  I did a compression check prior to teardown and both front and rear cylinder compression was normal (acr's were functioning and compression was correct.  The studs are oily because when the head gasket failed at the oil return hole, it allowed oil to run down the cylinder stud holes.  That is why when I broke the cylinder head bolts loose oil ran out from the cylinder base - it got there thru the cylinder stud holes.  The heads are stock 110 heads - not httc heads.  I checked torque on all bolts as I disassembled the motor.  All bolts were at the proper torque value - nothing was loose.

thanks...Scott

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Thanks for the pictures. The wife's bike is tore down again at the dealer. At 7165 miles new head gaskets. Now at 19020 miles new liners, pistons and rings front and rear. Valve job on rear head. Valve seal decided to travel with the valve stem pumping oil into cylinder. I will try and get photos to compare.

How is your crank runout? Dealer measured ours and it was ok.

hdbrad03,

crank runout was .0012

Scott

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Everything is all to familiar Brian! Meted ACR wires, excessive heat discoloration, all at the rear. That's where the HG's are blowing. I'm wondering if the blown HG is then causing excessive heat due to oil being blown out, instead of wiping the cylinder walls. Or is the heat causing the gaskets to blow in the first place. Ugly situation regardless. I sure hope what I've done, and what Scott's doing, corrects this, not exacerbates it. I'm glad to hear your flywheels weren't discolored from the heat. Either were mine. The heat seems to be limited to the top end, and primarily the rear cylinder. Scarey chit man!

Red, the studs are wet because the oil fills the cylinder stud holes after it the gasket starts leaking. This is apparent when lifting the cylinders and watching oil pour out from the bottom of the cylinder stud holes, as soon as you lift the cylinder.

Hoist!

Hoist,

  The heat comes first, then the gasket goes.  As long as you have normal oil pressure (which means you have sufficient oil volume also) everything is getting lubricated.  The oil leak is from the drain return hole - minimal pressure at this point - only pressure is the vacuum created by the motor.  Heat first, leak second...

Scott

[Hoist!]

Hoist,

  The heat comes first, then the gasket goes.  As long as you have normal oil pressure (which means you have sufficient oil volume also) everything is getting lubricated.  The oil leak is from the drain return hole - minimal pressure at this point - only pressure is the vacuum created by the motor.  Heat first, leak second...

Scott

Why do you think there's so much heat in the rear? Is the stuff we're doing going to correct this excessive heat problem in the rear? Is it inherent to this motor's design, regardless of parts used to make it strong? Is the whole motor junk? I'm starting to second-guess my solution to fixing this motor now!

Hoist!

[sadunbar]

[/quote

Thanks for the evidence, I mean photos.  I'm glad my motor was replaced.  It seems to a non engineer that there just isn't enough gasket material geography to alloy an aluminum engine running this hot to seal properly.

How many miles?

Thanks again for the great pictures.

scremin,

  IMO the gasket is as sufficient as any gasket on a 4" or larger bore.  I don't believe there is anything wrong with the gasket or gasket design.  That is why I believe replacing gaskets continuously (the MOCO plan) is ridiculous.  (What is the definition of insanity?? - doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result!!)  IMO, the problem is excessive heat which causes the gasket to fail.  It is not likely a coincidence that the failures are almost all the rear cylinder.  If the problem was gasket design only, the failures would be statistically the same between front and rear cylinders - and they obviously are not.

  Mileage at failure was approx. 5000 miles...

Scott

[sadunbar]

Why do you think there's so much heat in the rear? Is the stuff we're doing going to correct this excessive heat problem in the rear? Is it inherent to this motor's design, regardless of parts used to make it strong? Is the whole motor junk? I'm starting to second-guess my solution to fixing this motor now!

Hoist!

Howie,

Again, just IMO - but,

  The cylinder head heat is created by a combination of the cam design, cylinder head design and ignition (timing and AFR).  What you have done, and what I am going to do, addresses all three issues.  We both did what we could with the ignition prior to having the problem by running a richer afr and adjusting the timing via an ignition module.  The stock cams actually have negative overlap!!  The head design and porting may make the EPA happy, but it creates and retains heat in the heads.

  At any rate, IMO, proper cam design, head porting and adequate ignition (timing and afr) will take the heat out of the heads.  This doesn't necessarily mean the oil temps run much cooler (oil temp is not the problem - head temp is the problem) - but it does reduce the cylinder head temperature.

Scott

[sadunbar]

sadunbar,

Great pictures; thanks so much. Could I bother you to take a couple more pictures of both cylinder bores in the natural daylight? The high resolution of your photos allows you to back away from the subject matter a little to ensure a clear focus, while still maintaining a large, detailed image. A couple of pictures of each piston's front and rear skirt would also be great. TIA.

djkak

I took a few more pics this morning for you...I am no photographer and I am having a hard time not getting shadows and glare - but I will post a few additional shots...

first another of the rear cylinder showing the vertical heat discoloration..

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another of the rear cylinder

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now here are few of the front cylinder...

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another front cylinder

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another front cylinder

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I guess I want to say one other thing...I am no expert on VTwin motors.  I am very experienced building high performance racing engines - hundreds over many years - so any comments or thoughts I have on the inner workings of a VTwin are simple "one man's opinion" of what I see in my own stuff.  I am sure many of you are far more experienced then I am with a VTwin.  I am borrowing from my racing motor experience and applying it to my bike motor.  I know how to methodically tear down a motor when trying to diagnose a problem, I know what to look for and I know how it all should work...  Also, I have worked with enough manufacturers over the years, in my personal and professional life to have learned to trust none of them completely and don't trust some of them at all.  When I listen to the Harley Tech support person explain to me over the phone that the official fix for the leaking head gasket problem is to put another gasket in the motor, I just chuckle...  Don't think for a moment they don't know better - and don't think for a moment they are unaware there is an issue.  They do - but if they can get away with it, they will never admit it.

So - don't anyone take my thoughts and opinions as anything more then that - cause that's all they are - no years of VTwin knowledge - I am just applying what knowledge and experience I have and developing my own conclusions as I work thru this.  I find this as fun and interesting and enjoyable as riding...up here where we have winters - this is a dream project for me...  There is nothing inside this motor that is at all intimidating.  I may have to go purchase a few speciality tools.  When I am done, I may have changed my mind as to what caused what - but one thing for sure - I will have enjoyed getting there.  I welcome all suggestions and input from all of you.  When I am done, I will have a good, strong, reliable motor and I will know a lot more about them then I do today.

Scott

[Hoist!]

I guess I want to say one other thing...I am no expert on VTwin motors.  I am very experienced building high performance racing engines - hundreds over many years - so any comments or thoughts I have on the inner workings of a VTwin are simple "one man's opinion" of what I see in my own stuff.  I am sure many of you are far more experienced then I am with a VTwin.  I am borrowing from my racing motor experience and applying it to my bike motor.  I know how to methodically tear down a motor when trying to diagnose a problem, I know what to look for and I know how it all should work...  Also, I have worked with enough manufacturers over the years, in my personal and professional life to have learned to trust none of them completely and don't trust some of them at all.  When I listen to the Harley Tech support person explain to me over the phone that the official fix for the leaking head gasket problem is to put another gasket in the motor, I just chuckle...  Don't think for a moment they don't know better - and don't think for a moment they are unaware there is an issue.  They do - but if they can get away with it, they will never admit it.

So - don't anyone take my thoughts and opinions as anything more then that - cause that's all they are - no years of VTwin knowledge - I am just applying what knowledge and experience I have and developing my own conclusions as I work thru this.  I find this as fun and interesting and enjoyable as riding...up here where we have winters - this is a dream project for me...  There is nothing inside this motor that is at all intimidating.  I may have to go purchase a few speciality tools.  When I am done, I may have changed my mind as to what caused what - but one thing for sure - I will have enjoyed getting there.  I welcome all suggestions and input from all of you.  When I am done, I will have a good, strong, reliable motor and I will know a lot more about them then I do today.

Scott

Great stuff Scott. It's like deja-vu for me here! Our similar attempted solutions should teach us a lot about the cause and effect of the issues with these motors. I'm losing patience with mine. If an entire bulletproof new top end does not 100% allow these under-engineered, low quality 110's to be reliable in the end, I'm done with it. Complete replacement will therefore be the next logical solution.

HD, if you're reading this, you guys oughta be ashamed of yourselves! Instead of having a group of die-hard enthusiasts, who purchase your flagship bikes, raving about how great they are, you've allowed your beancounters and idiot marketing geniuses to cause us to think we've bought the biggest POS around! And you continue to treat us like fools, making believe you know nothing about your issues. You make a bike that attracts a different class of people. By treating us like fools, you insult our intelligence and drive us further away from our love for your products. You want marketing advice, ask us. Your marketing guys are morons if you think we'll take much more of this chit! Stop treating us like fools and give us some credit here. I'm pretty tired of it right now!

Hoist!

[skreminegul07]

How did the auto chain tensioner look? Mine seems to be very tight and will not release.

Possible cause of the crank runout of the chain is too tight.

[sadunbar]

How did the auto chain tensioner look? Mine seems to be very tight and will not release.

Sorry, I missed this earlier.  The chain tensioner was fine - functioning as intended..