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Author Topic: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?  (Read 4713 times)

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Hoist!

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How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« on: May 19, 2008, 07:31:01 PM »

Looking for a car for Binx, I thought I'd look at some Hybrids. These damn car companies have to be in cahoots with the Oil Cos.! They make it impossible to get a Hybrid! Either it's in limited supply, or costs way more than a regular model. And with all the BS going on now with oil prices...WTF??!!! They give you a rebate for high efficiency light bulbs! Where's the damn discounts or rebates for fuel efficient vehicles. The whole damn system's a scam and being controlled by the oil companies all the way to the top. And ya'll think these politicians are running for change! What a buncha crap! Nuthin ain't changing til the oil companies suck the life out of us first!

And while I'm at it, WTF are our electric and gas supplies obtained from "Utilities?" Government controlled monopolies where every increase gets approved and profit is predetermined. Deregulation kinda made a mess of that too. We're going freakin backwards here. Why are we letting the oil companies control the world. Throw them out. There should be NO profit made on energy. It should all be a Utility. And when the Feds control it, maybe then we can start getting tough again with the damn Middle East, and take the chit if it can't be worked out reasonably!!! WTF happened to good ole Manifest Destiny? >:( >:( >:(

Hoist! 8)
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FNGw/08SERK

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 07:33:27 PM »

Looking for a car for Binx, I thought I'd look at some Hybrids. These damn car companies have to be in cahoots with the Oil Cos.! They make it impossible to get a Hybrid! Either it's in limited supply, or costs way more than a regular model. And with all the BS going on now with oil prices...WTF??!!! They give you a rebate for high efficiency light bulbs! Where's the damn discounts or rebates for fuel efficient vehicles. The whole damn system's a scam and being controlled by the oil companies all the way to the top. And ya'll think these politicians are running for change! What a buncha crap! Nuthin ain't changing til the oil companies suck the life out of us first!

And while I'm at it, WTF are our electric and gas supplies obtained from "Utilities?" Government controlled monopolies where every increase gets approved and profit is predetermined. Deregulation kinda made a mess of that too. We're going freakin backwards here. Why are we letting the oil companies control the world. Throw them out. There should be NO profit made on energy. It should all be a Utility. And when the Feds control it, maybe then we can start getting tough again with the damn Middle East, and take the chit if it can't be worked out reasonably!!! WTF happened to good ole Manifest Destiny? >:( >:( >:(

Hoist! 8)
I take it ya had a hard time finding Binx a car?  :nixweiss:   :drink:   :huepfenjump3:
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courter

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 07:37:31 PM »

I take it ya had a hard time finding Binx a car?  :nixweiss:   :drink:   :huepfenjump3:

It sorta sounds like maybe she didn't like the color or somethin'?  :P
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Hoist!

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2008, 07:39:06 PM »

I take it ya had a hard time finding Binx a car?  :nixweiss:   :drink:   :huepfenjump3:

Nah, still looking and haven't made any deciscions on what yet. That's not why I'm mad. This Hybrid thing got my goat! As we were researching these Hybrid thingies, we realized that whole Hybrid thing is a SCAM!!! >:(

If they really wanna save oil, they'll get em in our hands as fast and as cheap as possible! They don't wanna save it, they want to suck us dry!!! ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2008, 07:47:51 PM »

Nah, still looking and haven't made any deciscions on what yet. That's not why I'm mad. This Hybrid thing got my goat! As we were researching these Hybrid thingies, we realized that whole Hybrid thing is a SCAM!!! >:(

If they really wanna save oil, they'll get em in our hands as fast and as cheap as possible! They don't wanna save it, they want to suck us dry!!! ;)

Hoist! 8)
It's all a scam labeled under the guise of capitalism I guess. There's no f'n oil shortage either but we're paying as if!! ok I'll stop.   :P
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Hoist!

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2008, 08:02:15 PM »

It's all a scam labeled under the guise of capitalism I guess. There's no f'n oil shortage either but we're paying as if!! ok I'll stop.   :P

Zactly! And don't stop! How about, "We're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore!!!" ;D

Hoist! 8)
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SPIDERMAN

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 09:30:27 PM »

Howie
       But the lovely Mrs a Honda Pacifica. Kinda like a scooter only much more refined and complete. Obviously it's a hybrid since it's missing a couple of wheels and a few other parts a more coventional Honda would have. Who knows, maybe she'll want her own H-D CVO model after a year or so of riding the Pacifica.

B B

All that being said, a 63 Falcon 2 door hardtop with a whoppin 160 CID 4 banger gets some serious gas mileage.

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NukeIT

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2008, 05:52:40 AM »

It should all be a Utility. And when the Feds control it

Feds in control??? then the prices would go through the roof. Have you ever seen the requisition forms when those guys order a $500 hammer, or the $1000 toilet seat?

If you haven't bought anything yet for her, you might want to look into the Honda accord GX. It runs on CNG, which is cheaper than gasoline and produces better MPG...  You also get a $4000 rebate on your federal income taxes for the year.
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Sean M Cary

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2008, 07:13:52 AM »

Zactly! And don't stop! How about, "We're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore!!!" ;D

Hoist! 8)

Can't you call Al Gore and see if he will help you - or maybe you can cash in some of your "Carbon Credits"...

It's all a bunch of BS.  :soapbox:

I get 54mpg on my KLR - have not been able to figure the CVO yet.  Not too many cars can touch that, and I hate driving anyway.  So my MC's are my hybrids.

Sean
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NukeIT

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2008, 07:18:47 AM »

Can't you call Al Gore and see if he will help you - or maybe you can cash in some of your "Carbon Credits"...

It's all a bunch of BS.  :soapbox:

I get 54mpg on my KLR - have not been able to figure the CVO yet.  Not too many cars can touch that, and I hate driving anyway.  So my MC's are my hybrids.

Sean

I am waiting to see what the new VW diesels look like.... production was suppose to start earlier this year but was pushed back due to epa bull, supposely they will get in the 50's for mpg range.....
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2008, 08:41:15 AM »

I am waiting to see what the new VW diesels look like.... production was suppose to start earlier this year but was pushed back due to epa bull, supposely they will get in the 50's for mpg range.....

With the rapid inflation of diesel fuel prices, what do the calculations show for cost per mile versus the gasoline versions?  Even after factoring the higher initial cost for a diesel, there used to be a clearcut cost per mile advantage for diesels due to higher mpg and lower cost per gallon.  I haven't had cause to look at it recently, but your post got me thinking about it.  If the price gap of diesel to gasoline continues to widen, I've got a feeling that any advantage diesels had is going to evaporate, if it hasn't already.  :confused5:

Jerry
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courter

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2008, 08:50:05 AM »

With the rapid inflation of diesel fuel prices, what do the calculations show for cost per mile versus the gasoline versions?  Even after factoring the higher initial cost for a diesel, there used to be a clearcut cost per mile advantage for diesels due to higher mpg and lower cost per gallon.  I haven't had cause to look at it recently, but your post got me thinking about it.  If the price gap of diesel to gasoline continues to widen, I've got a feeling that any advantage diesels had is going to evaporate, if it hasn't already.  :confused5:

Jerry
I did the math on mine yesterday and the way I drive I get about 18 mpg with my GMC diesel, and the best the other guys get with their gassers is around 14.5.  It works out that the gas/diesel spread needs to be about an even $1.00 to be a wash when you only account for mileage.  Then there's the $6,500 engine upgrade price on the negative side and 10k between oil changes, 2 1/2 times the engine life, torque, etc. on the plus side. 
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miker

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2008, 08:52:30 AM »

I believe the diesel advantage has dissapeared about a year ago...My diesel has an average cost a .09 a mile in maintenance alone, nevermind the .90 difference in cost per gallon...

My wifes jeep diesel at least gets 20 around town and 30 highway, nort bad for 4 wheel drive..

I will be be trading down as soon as I sell my trailer.
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2008, 08:57:16 AM »

With the rapid inflation of diesel fuel prices, what do the calculations show for cost per mile versus the gasoline versions?  Even after factoring the higher initial cost for a diesel, there used to be a clearcut cost per mile advantage for diesels due to higher mpg and lower cost per gallon.  I haven't had cause to look at it recently, but your post got me thinking about it.  If the price gap of diesel to gasoline continues to widen, I've got a feeling that any advantage diesels had is going to evaporate, if it hasn't already.  :confused5:

Jerry

We have an '06 F350 8' bed 4 door and a '97 E350 extended, both diesel. Used to be, not so long ago, that it was better to have a diesel, especially for towing, because of the better mpg than a regular engine. Not now. He's pretty much had to park the F350 and now drives the E350, with 500k miles on it, for work as it gets better mpg. I guess the gas companies don't have enough storage for diesel and that's why it is so high.

Kathy
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2008, 09:03:35 AM »

i love my F350...  i HATE paying to fill it up.

i looked at Hybrids not long ago for a commuter car....  by the time you factor in the higher cost... the replacement of the battery packs ( couple years at like 4 k) the break even point between the hybrid and normal gas model is somewhere at like 8-10 years.

i also convince myself that the cost of a new car....  ( say about 20 grand)  will buy a hell of a lotof diesel, even at these prices  :nixweiss:
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NukeIT

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2008, 09:20:07 AM »

With the rapid inflation of diesel fuel prices, what do the calculations show for cost per mile versus the gasoline versions?  Even after factoring the higher initial cost for a diesel, there used to be a clearcut cost per mile advantage for diesels due to higher mpg and lower cost per gallon.  I haven't had cause to look at it recently, but your post got me thinking about it.  If the price gap of diesel to gasoline continues to widen, I've got a feeling that any advantage diesels had is going to evaporate, if it hasn't already.  :confused5:

Jerry

I wish I could calculate cost per mile or even est. but I would assume pretty low, given VW track record for reliability, and durability,they have been making diesel motors for years that seem to keep on chugging with little to no maintenance.... to compare their gas motor jetta to their diesel, the gas motor gets an est. mid 20mpg rating / where as the diesel gets a est. mid 50mpg rating... this is a huge difference... there is not many cars out there besides a few hybrids that can do that, and remember this isn't some little tiny car, it is a decent size commuter....

Just my two cents but i don't think we are going to see a jump in diesel price that could make it more costly to operate it than its gas counterpart...

now for you full size truck guys it just sucks cause the gain in milage does not outweigh the price of fuel or maintenance so I agree with you.... sorry!! :( :(

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Hoist!

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2008, 09:22:11 AM »

Point being the Hybrids and Hi mileage vehicles should be cheaper, not a premium. There should be incentives to use these vehicles if anyone really GAS about oil availability! It's a SCAM! ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2008, 09:34:14 AM »

It's always been a Scam, The English are drilling off shore, the Chinese are drilling off shore near Cuba and know one is screaming about how close to Fla they are in the event of a spill. Harry Reid and the left (move-on.org) what to keep the US dependent on Overseas oil so they can lower our standard of living to the rest of the third world standards.

Keep Voting Democratic it's good for you and your children
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 12:11:51 PM »

Howie
       Buy the lovely Mrs a Honda Pacifica. Kinda like a scooter only much more refined and complete. Obviously it's a hybrid since it's missing a couple of wheels and a few other parts a more coventional Honda would have. Who knows, maybe she'll want her own H-D CVO model after a year or so of riding the Pacifica.

B B

BB

Is this what you mean?

http://charlotte.craigslist.org/mcy/687933423.html

 :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:
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SPIDERMAN

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 12:46:49 PM »

That's the deal Chip, but the price seems high. For $2k it'd be just the thing for Mrs Hoist.

B B

And Howie could ride bitch when Cybil was broke down
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 12:50:07 PM »

That's the deal Chip, but the price seems high. For $2k it'd be just the thing for Mrs Hoist.

B B

And Howie could ride bitch when Cybil was broke down

Does seem high, but to put it in perspective compared to what's invested in Cybil I think it's a bargain!
Hell if it was 18 instead of 28 I would buy it.

 :2vrolijk_21:

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SPIDERMAN

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2008, 12:59:29 PM »

Does seem high, but to put it in perspective compared to what's invested in Cybil I think it's a bargain!
Hell if it was 18 instead of 28 I would buy it.

 :2vrolijk_21:



Offer the guy 18 Chip and sell it to Howie for 22.

Once the truth got out you'd win the Chithead poll for sure  :)

B B
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NukeIT

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2008, 03:54:11 PM »

forget about a hybrid..

lookie here....http://www.teslamotors.com/




TN

looks alot like a lotus
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2008, 04:32:25 PM »

Point being the Hybrids and Hi mileage vehicles should be cheaper, not a premium. There should be incentives to use these vehicles if anyone really GAS about oil availability! It's a SCAM! ;)

Hoist! 8)

Howie, the auto companies aren't going to sell the hybrids at a loss just because the oil companies are raking in the big bucks, so I don't follow your logic.  Who should be providing the incentives?  Oil companies? (yeah, right)  Uncle Sam? (he's already broke)  :nixweiss:

You know, it seems strange for the owner of a CVO to be bitching about the price of a hybrid.  Most hybrids are priced lower than a CVO, but the hybrid is a 12 month of the year vehicle fully equipped with all the modern accessories and safety features, and it carries more passengers and cargo.  Best of all, I haven't heard of any of the current brands having floppy crankshafts or recurring oil leaks, and you don't have to spend another $5k plus to make them run right. They also have real warranties. ::)


Jerry   ;)

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2008, 05:27:25 PM »

Check the cost of maintenance on one. Can you do it.  :nixweiss:
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110tHunDer

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2008, 05:36:36 PM »

Howie, the auto companies aren't going to sell the hybrids at a loss just because the oil companies are raking in the big bucks, so I don't follow your logic.  Who should be providing the incentives?  Oil companies? (yeah, right)  Uncle Sam? (he's already broke)  :nixweiss:

You know, it seems strange for the owner of a CVO to be bitching about the price of a hybrid.  Most hybrids are priced lower than a CVO, but the hybrid is a 12 month of the year vehicle fully equipped with all the modern accessories and safety features, and it carries more passengers and cargo.  Best of all, I haven't heard of any of the current brands having floppy crankshafts or recurring oil leaks, and you don't have to spend another $5k plus to make them run right. They also have real warranties. ::)


Jerry   ;)



I think there is some tax deduction for purchasing a hybrid, or at least there used to be.  I remember my tax preparer asking me a couple of different times whether or not I'd purchased a hybrid the previous year.  My reply was the same: "No, but I do have two HEMIs and a Viper truck." :nixweiss: :P

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SPIDERMAN

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008, 07:19:18 PM »

Howie, the auto companies aren't going to sell the hybrids at a loss just because the oil companies are raking in the big bucks, so I don't follow your logic.  Who should be providing the incentives?  Oil companies? (yeah, right)  Uncle Sam? (he's already broke)  :nixweiss:

You know, it seems strange for the owner of a CVO to be bitching about the price of a hybrid.  Most hybrids are priced lower than a CVO, but the hybrid is a 12 month of the year vehicle fully equipped with all the modern accessories and safety features, and it carries more passengers and cargo.  Best of all, I haven't heard of any of the current brands having floppy crankshafts or recurring oil leaks, and you don't have to spend another $5k plus to make them run right. They also have real warranties. ::)

Jerry   ;)


Jerry
       As usual, your logic is annoyingly um er ah  well logical I guess. When I read the above, I wonder how H-D manages to stay in business. Were any car company to operate as H-D has, they'd quickly be out of business.

B B
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 10:01:47 PM by SPIDERMAN »
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grc

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 08:02:19 PM »

Check the cost of maintenance on one. Can you do it.  :nixweiss:

I can't speak for every model out there, but maintenance on most of them is very similar to the maintenance on their conventional siblings (oil, filters, coolant, belts, brakes, etc.).  The battery packs are covered by most manufacturers for 100,000 miles, so that potentially expensive bit of maintenance isn't something you would need to worry about for many many years. 

Jerry
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2008, 08:17:31 PM »

I think there is some tax deduction for purchasing a hybrid, or at least there used to be.  I remember my tax preparer asking me a couple of different times whether or not I'd purchased a hybrid the previous year.  My reply was the same: "No, but I do have two HEMIs and a Viper truck." :nixweiss: :P



You're right Brian, there are tax credits for certain models and years.  The enabling legislation was set up to help encourage sales of hybrids by offering direct tax credits, but only until the particular vehicle achieved certain specified sales volumes.  Toyota has achieved the target volumes and therefore the credit has expired for their models, but there are several others that still have significant credits.

Go here for the full story:

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html

Jerry
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FLYNDYNA

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2008, 12:32:05 PM »

What it boils down to is Hybrids are more expensive than they should be, and the incentives could be alot better. They should also be producing more full-electrics with solar chargers, but as long as the oil companies are running things it will never happen. Why is it that corn liquor can be produced cheap, but we can't produce alcohol fuel for less than $5.50 a gallon? Why is it that there are so many untapped oil reserves at our disposal that will continue to go unused while our depenency on foreign fuels increases? Hoist has it right, it is all such a frigging scam...
thank goodness for the members of this site doing their part by riding CVO's whenever and wherever possible-

flyndyna
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2008, 12:54:36 PM »

Ok, just a thought here. Given thatax credits for hybrids are to their above average fuel economy why then aren't us MC riders offered the same??  :nixweiss:
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2008, 03:33:35 PM »

Ok, just a thought here. Given thatax credits for hybrids are to their above average fuel economy why then aren't us MC riders offered the same??  :nixweiss:

They should be building vehicles that run on Hydrogen. Throw your houshold garbage in your trunk for fuel, and make Hydrogen for fuel cells to run an all self contained electric vehicle! No fossil fuel, no emmissions! Can probably be done, but major oil will never let it happen! ::) >:( ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2008, 04:16:31 PM »

Well...If i remember correctly; the US Air Force is currently flying fighter planes with good ol garbarge. You'd thunk a car could be made also...Ah!...special interest , lobbyist and the like...its all in the color GREEN $.
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FNGw/08SERK

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2008, 04:48:34 PM »

Well...If i remember correctly; the US Air Force is currently flying fighter planes with good ol garbarge. You'd thunk a car could be made also...Ah!...special interest , lobbyist and the like...its all in the color GREEN $.
Speaking of that - has anyone caught any of the Walmart Corporate meeting videos that were taken by Flagler Productions. Clear insight into the power of special interest money etc....
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16HD117

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2008, 05:19:16 PM »

They should be building vehicles that run on Hydrogen. Throw your houshold garbage in your trunk for fuel, and make Hydrogen for fuel cells to run an all self contained electric vehicle! No fossil fuel, no emmissions! Can probably be done, but major oil will never let it happen! ::) >:( ;)

Hoist! 8)

Honda is!  In 2008 Honda will be leasing the FCX, a hydrogen fueled car, in the LA (not Lower Alabama) area.  They will only be available in that area because of the availiability of fuel stations.  Honda is also devoleping a home fuel station for FCX owners.  This station will not only refuel the car but will also heat and power the home!

Here's some info.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/?ef_id=1097:1:b4a59e655269721e62a880c431b60d34_11929322512_144344502012:GsXh@tB6B3YAAB5IN4wAAAAe:20080521211604
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 05:30:14 PM by 07hd110 »
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2008, 05:25:37 PM »

Honda is!  In 2008 Honda will be leasing Hydrogen fueled cars in the LA (not Lower Alabama) area.

Here's some info.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/?ef_id=1097:1:b4a59e655269721e62a880c431b60d34_11929322512_144344502012:GsXh@tB6B3YAAB5IN4wAAAAe:20080521211604

Yeah Tommy, but I'm talking about making your own hydrogen, on board, with your household garbage! Completely self-contained system. By product of the whole thing...H2O! Now that's clean, renewable energy! And solves loads of problems! And we ain't never gonna stop making garbage!!! ;D ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2008, 05:45:54 PM »

Howie, Be careful of some of the hybred cars of today. The overall cost of ownership over a 5 year period is projected to be appx. 30% higher than a straight 4 cyl gas car. In order to justify the cost of hybred you have to drive lots and lots of CITY miles. I am sure they are good for our enviroment,I am not so sure they are all that good for our pocketbook. I see people make mistakes buying the wrong cars all the time. Dont you be one of them. Kevin
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 05:53:10 PM »

Yeah Tommy, but I'm talking about making your own hydrogen, on board, with your household garbage! Completely self-contained system. By product of the whole thing...H2O! Now that's clean, renewable energy! And solves loads of problems! And we ain't never gonna stop making garbage!!! ;D ;)

Hoist! 8)

Hoist, you talk the best trash I've ever heard!
Absolutely a renewable source, no drilling involved...I doubt trash prices will go up- anyone else wanna talk trash?

Flyndyna/rotting cabbage
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2008, 07:38:06 PM »

Howie, Be careful of some of the hybred cars of today. The overall cost of ownership over a 5 year period is projected to be appx. 30% higher than a straight 4 cyl gas car. In order to justify the cost of hybred you have to drive lots and lots of CITY miles. I am sure they are good for our enviroment,I am not so sure they are all that good for our pocketbook. I see people make mistakes buying the wrong cars all the time. Dont you be one of them. Kevin

Thanks Kevin. I'm done looking at Hybrids. Looking at the VW GTI right now. Hot little car getting rave reviews about the way it handles! :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2008, 10:38:22 PM »

 the lack of infrastructure for re-fueling stations is what keeps the alternatives out of the mainstream for now. hydrogen fo example.

 if we bottled all the bullchit  here we would be self sufficient....... :coolblue:


i frickin riding


TN
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2008, 11:20:26 PM »

Howie, I've been thinking about your car search -- and what I think you've found is the market system playing out a perfect storm.  Al Gore's off winning a Nobel Prize for his spunk on Global Warming, the nuts on Wall Street are paying too much for oil, we've had a credit crisis that has driven down the value of the dollar, housing, stocks and just about everything we held onto as any type of security and we stupid Americans are basking in our own apathy crying about the prices of things.  There's a reason they make $35,000 motorcycles and $75,000 hybrids -- people are buying them.  People aren't buying 10 MPG Expeditions these days, so they're getting cleared out at whatever price they will bring to make room for the new line up of higher dollar less cost to produce junk.  If people would only stop and do the math on how much fuel they could buy for the extra they're spending (and will never recover) they'd stop buying them.

There are no answers.  Government sure isn't going to help and I sure as hell don't want them to try.  The market will correct itself if we spend smart -- the dollar is our voice.
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2008, 11:24:53 PM »

Well Dave, she still needs a car. She like the Honda CR-V. That's probably the one now. I kinda liked the GTI, but she knows what I'll do to that thing! :o ;D ;D ;D

Hoist! 8)
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2008, 11:38:08 PM »

A buddy of mine drives the Subaru Impreza WRX.  A blast to drive and pretty good on gas too.  I had a VW back in high school, and it was really reliable but not so good in an accident.  Today's are better I'm sure.  Good luck in the search.
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IRyde

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2008, 02:30:48 AM »

Hoist,  I share the frustrations.  It's the same from hybrids to gas clothes dryers.  Little story.  When we got a house built for us I paid for extra gas lines to run appliances.  When we went for the appliances I was surprised to see that gas dryers are more expensive.  Amortize that cost compared to an electric dryer and I start seeing savings in about 10 years!!  Just when it is about time to buy a replacement!

A thought.  Why are we in Iraq?  Spending 10 billion a month!  Are we seeing and reward from it?  You would thing we would see a discount in crude for our help over there.  No!!!  Then why don't we take that 10 billion a month and excite alternative fuels technology?  Some how, some way the politicians will skim of the top to the point where there is no savings.  Very Frustrating!!

Recently on the news the oil officers will be answering the "hard" to the senate committee.  Why are oil cost up and profits at records?  Yea right!  Like that is going to do squat!  The government is threatening to pull some of their taxes breaks since profits are so good.  Like we will see any relief from that.

All that BS and now they want to take the bikinis away from the baristas in Seattle!!
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grc

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2008, 09:09:05 AM »

Howie, I've been thinking about your car search -- and what I think you've found is the market system playing out a perfect storm.  Al Gore's off winning a Nobel Prize for his spunk on Global Warming, the nuts on Wall Street are paying too much for oil, we've had a credit crisis that has driven down the value of the dollar, housing, stocks and just about everything we held onto as any type of security and we stupid Americans are basking in our own apathy crying about the prices of things.  There's a reason they make $35,000 motorcycles and $75,000 hybrids -- people are buying them.  People aren't buying 10 MPG Expeditions these days, so they're getting cleared out at whatever price they will bring to make room for the new line up of higher dollar less cost to produce junk.  If people would only stop and do the math on how much fuel they could buy for the extra they're spending (and will never recover) they'd stop buying them.

There are no answers.  Government sure isn't going to help and I sure as hell don't want them to try.  The market will correct itself if we spend smart -- the dollar is our voice.

Huge sums of money have been pizzed away over the years by folks who didn't think beyond the next weekend, and I'm quite certain this time will be no different.  I still remember all those people back in the 70's who traded in nearly new full size cars, at less than 50 cents on the dollar, for a tiny Japanese car at several thousand over MSRP, all because of a fuel scare.  The best part was that the fuel situation quickly changed, and many of those same folks who couldn't stand those tiny underpowered cars wound up losing their shirts again trading back the other way.  As a certain impresario once noted, there's a sucker born every minute.

For those of you who for one reason or another must have a full size car or truck, this is a good time to buck the trend and look for some real bargains. 

I still remember all the teeth gnashing and crying every time we've had a blip in fuel costs or availability over the past three decades.  In my lifetime I've seen gas go from $0.19 per gallon to the current $4.05, with lots of ups and downs in between.  After all the dire predictions of the 70's and 80's, I look at the excesses of the last 15 years (Hummers, 8 passenger SUV's, etc.) and just shake my head.  The vast majority of those vehicles can be seen cruising the roads with only one person inside.  And I see many folks with these vehicles who don't even have kids to justify the extra room, they just drive them because they're "cool".  The American public doesn't get it, and never will get it. 

I find it difficult to feel sorry for people who keep shooting themselves in the foot.  And I have no sympathy at all for those who expect someone else (the auto companies, the government, the tooth fairy) to magically produce solutions overnight.  If the consumers had demanded more fuel efficient alternatives instead of more bloat over the past several decades, manufacturers would have responded.  So far every attempt by manufacturer's or government to force the issue has failed because the consumer wouldn't buy the product.  Instead, the public demanded more size and more power.  In a free market, you tend to get what the consumer votes for with his $$$.  My advice to those who want an answer to our energy woes is similar to the advice I offer to those wanting decent quality and value from H-D:  vote with your pocketbook.  Don't buy another Harley until they take the customer seriously, and stop buying 10 mpg behemoths to ride up and down the freeway.
 
Jerry
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IRyde

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2008, 03:39:28 PM »


I find it difficult to feel sorry for people who keep shooting themselves in the foot.  And I have no sympathy at all for those who expect someone else (the auto companies, the government, the tooth fairy) to magically produce solutions overnight.  If the consumers had demanded more fuel efficient alternatives instead of more bloat over the past several decades, manufacturers would have responded.  So far every attempt by manufacturer's or government to force the issue has failed because the consumer wouldn't buy the product.  Instead, the public demanded more size and more power.  In a free market, you tend to get what the consumer votes for with his $$$.  My advice to those who want an answer to our energy woes is similar to the advice I offer to those wanting decent quality and value from H-D:  vote with your pocketbook.  Don't buy another Harley until they take the customer seriously, and stop buying 10 mpg behemoths to ride up and down the freeway.
 
Jerry

I hear you but this situation cannot just be controlled or swayed by the little guy.  One needs to get to work.  One needs to drive.  If decisions were made today it would take 20-50 years to create the infrastructure for an alternative fuel supply. 

It's a chicken or egg thing really.  The auto manufacturers don't want all that R&D $ to be in vane if no refilling stations are created and cars are not sold.  The service stations don't want to build that infrastucture until they see usage from cars. 

Bigtime I am not a fan of government getting into business but MONEY talks.  Why are they not thinking about future?  10 billion a month spent on the Iraq war could really stimulate alternative fuels technology.  Once that is built then Iraq, Saudi and all other countries ARE trully just a Frickin' desert.  We don't need thier oil so go play in your giant sandbox!

I get this thought in my mind EVERY time I fill up.  How much of my money feeds terrorist activities.  That thought more than anything else concerns me.  Are we funding the next 911? 

The little guy?  I do not know about everyone else but recently I have thought more that ever to build somethings that runs on electrics.  How cool would it be if a grassroots movement could stimulate change on that angle?  Two concerns on a little project like this.  1. $ voltage controllers and batteries are friggin' expensive.  2. Would government enact laws to suppress that movement.  We are already seeing the desire to halt custom builts.

I hate conspirisay theories but why isn't there any stimulus come from our government.  It makes me wonder.
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HogBreath

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2008, 03:46:31 PM »

It's all just a viscious plot, perpetrated by the man, to keep the brothers down!  :smilie_daumenneg:
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IRyde

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2008, 03:50:24 PM »

It's all just a viscious plot, perpetrated by the man, to keep the brothers down!  :smilie_daumenneg:

 :znotworthy: :znotworthy: :znotworthy: :znotworthy: :zroflmao:
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2008, 03:55:51 PM »

It's all just a viscious plot, perpetrated by the man, to keep the brothers down!  :smilie_daumenneg:

Aw chit, now you done did it.  Now all those crazy conspiracy folks (who, me?) are going to jump in again. :nervous:

Jerry  :)
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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2008, 04:06:36 PM »

I have read several articles over the past few years about the hype of Hybrid cars. Beside the initial high cost, their more expensive to get repaired, can be very dangerous in a crash, due to higher amperage of the electrical equipment, and cost more to dispose of at the end of their life cycle. My son-in law is a fire fighter, they are getting special training and instruction on the potential electrical hazards of these cars. The figures in the link below may be a little off with the current increase in gas prices, but still not going to make up the difference. Buy a Mini!

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/06-01-2005/0003769331&EDATE=

http://finance.yahoo.com/loans/article/103976/Most-and-Least-Cost-Effective-Hybrids

http://www.autospies.com/news/What-Are-The-Most-and-least-Cost-Effective-Hybrids-23963/
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Fired00d

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2008, 04:11:37 PM »

I have read several articles over the past few years about the hype of Hybrid cars. Beside the initial high cost, their more expensive to get repaired, can be very dangerous in a crash, due to higher amperage of the electrical equipment, and cost more to dispose of at the end of their life cycle. My son-in law is a fire fighter, they are getting special training and instruction on the potential electrical hazards of these cars. The figures in the link below may be a little off with the current increase in gas prices, but still not going to make up the difference. Buy a Mini!

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/06-01-2005/0003769331&EDATE=

http://finance.yahoo.com/loans/article/103976/Most-and-Least-Cost-Effective-Hybrids

http://www.autospies.com/news/What-Are-The-Most-and-least-Cost-Effective-Hybrids-23963/
They do present a danger in FF'ing. You have to treat them as running/energized all the time. Fire is one thing (you can see it), but electricity you can't and it bites you hard. :nervous:

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NukeIT

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2008, 06:00:25 AM »

Honda is!  In 2008 Honda will be leasing the FCX, a hydrogen fueled car, in the LA (not Lower Alabama) area.  They will only be available in that area because of the availiability of fuel stations.  Honda is also devoleping a home fuel station for FCX owners.  This station will not only refuel the car but will also heat and power the home!

Here's some info.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/?ef_id=1097:1:b4a59e655269721e62a880c431b60d34_11929322512_144344502012:GsXh@tB6B3YAAB5IN4wAAAAe:20080521211604

 $600 bones a month for 3 years and you can only lease it (damn that's steep).... so let me guess at the end of the lease it goes the way of the electric cars did in the 90's..... anybody remember them????

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grc

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2008, 08:35:40 AM »

$600 bones a month for 3 years and you can only lease it (damn that's steep).... so let me guess at the end of the lease it goes the way of the electric cars did in the 90's..... anybody remember them????



That's the same type of program that was used on the first hybrids also.  Leased to certain folks for a period of time and then returned to the manufacturer for analysis.  At least when the auto industry puts a test fleet on the road, they don't expect people to buy them and then pay through the nose to fix all the problems (hint, hint, H-D).

Jerry
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miker

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2008, 08:40:01 AM »

I just a  Honda Fit for my little girl...Nice car for the buck and built like a Honda!

http://automobiles.honda.com/fit/
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NukeIT

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2008, 09:18:19 AM »

That's the same type of program that was used on the first hybrids also.  Leased to certain folks for a period of time and then returned to the manufacturer for analysis.  At least when the auto industry puts a test fleet on the road, they don't expect people to buy them and then pay through the nose to fix all the problems (hint, hint, H-D).

Jerry

600 a month works out to a little over 21000 in three years for a car that you have no vested interest in, feels like paying through the nose to me.... At least they could do is make the payments in the 400's

 :soapbox:

Nuke
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outrider

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2008, 09:51:06 AM »

Yeah Tommy, but I'm talking about making your own hydrogen, on board, with your household garbage! Completely self-contained system. By product of the whole thing...H2O! Now that's clean, renewable energy! And solves loads of problems! And we ain't never gonna stop making garbage!!! ;D ;)

Hoist! 8)
Howie,
OK you've got my attention...If anybody else had told me they were going to process household garbage and produce enough hydrogen to power a vehicle with little or no byproduct (and no radioactive waste) I'd have dismissed it. I've been to your house, seen your home heating set up, and some of your gizmos. I'm all ears.
Also in response to talon you're absolutely right about the cost effectiveness of hybrids
I have some experience with Toyotas and the  difference in "cost of ownership" between Prius (which employs one of the more effective hybrid systems [so effective that Ford bought the technology]) and the Corolla (a comparably sized combustion vehicle) favors the Corolla until  you get to about the ninth year. Oh and by the way, the warranty on the hybrid battery system in the Prius? you guessed it 8 years...
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icybay

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2008, 10:33:13 AM »

Old News but worth revisiting, now that gas is twice as expensive as when this report was aired.......


Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:38 p.m. EDT

China Eyeing Cuba Offshore Oil

A shocking report aired on the Lou Dobbs show Thursday night revealed that Cuba has not only allowed China to drill but also to service an old Soviet refinery in Cuba while U.S. companies are locked out of the game. The Dobbs report also revealed that Venezuela's Castroite president, Hugo Chavez, has offered Chinese oil firms operating rights in his country.   

China and a host of other oil-hungry nations will be tapping into huge offshore oil deposits a mere 50 miles from the United States while this nation is forced to endure rising gas prices as a result of record high demand for oil fueled by such countries as China and India. 

According to Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, the U.S. energy sector has been "hamstrung" from seeking additional oil resources while at the same time allowing "the likes of China, Canada, Brazil, Spain, France and others to freely seek energy opportunities 50 miles off our coast without competition from state-of-the-art technologies and expertise of our own U.S. gas and oil industries." 

In a speech on the Senate floor, Craig said that a February 2005 U.S. Geological Survey report described "a possible deposit in the North Cuba Basin estimated at 4.6 billion barrels of oil, and possibly as much as 9.3 billion barrels." He then reminded his colleagues "that estimates for Alaska National Wildlife Refuge range from 4 billion to 10 billion barrels." 

So, he said, "The question must be asked: 'What is the U.S. doing while foreign companies and countries are exploring right off the U.S. coast in the North Cuba Basin, which is adjacent to the U.S. Outer Continental Shelf and contiguous with this country's Exclusive Economic Zone?'  Well, I can firmly tell my colleagues that we are doing absolutely nothing. Not one single U.S. company is exploring in these potentially beneficial waters that extend to within 50 miles off the coast of Florida. So, we sit here watching China exploit a valuable resource within eyesight of the U.S. coast. I say -- not on my watch." 

Craig added that he is "certain the American public would be shocked, as this country is trying to reduce our dependency on Middle East oil, that countries like China are realizing this energy resource."

Story Continues Below

   

China, which he said is the world's second-largest user of petroleum products "is using this area off our coast, and in Cuban national waters, as a strategic commodities reserve. It is doing this by acquiring exclusive rights in the emerging Cuban offshore oil sector -- thereby forever closing the door on those resources to the U.S. industry and drastically impacting our foreign policy in the region." 

According to the Bush administration's "National Security Strategy," China is "expanding trade, but acting as if they can somehow lock up energy supplies around the world or seek to direct markets rather than opening them up." 


Craig wants to introduce legislation that will allow the United States to operate in these waters off our southern coast, adding that we cannot allow China to lock up a potentially lucrative oil supply for life in our own backyard     
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Wrongway

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2008, 10:55:24 AM »

I looked at the hybrids when comparing the 2006 Civic, $16,900 for the LX Civic 5 speed estimated mpg 38 hwy.( I got 39.4 on my last tank). Hybrid Civic $23,000, estimated mpg 45 hwy. How many miles will I have to drive to offset the $6,000 extra at 5 mpg better? No sale for me! P.S. my CUSE has never gotten 40 mpg and was estimated a 50 mpg!
I take a lot of flack from my friends that work at GM plants, but when America can build a car as reliable as Japan and get 40 mpg, I'll buy it! OK I,m off my  :soapbox: now. Thanks for having me.  Dave
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Free

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2008, 02:57:56 AM »

Howie, the auto companies aren't going to sell the hybrids at a loss just because the oil companies are raking in the big bucks, so I don't follow your logic.  Who should be providing the incentives?  Oil companies? (yeah, right)  Uncle Sam? (he's already broke)  :nixweiss:


Jerry   ;)



The best thing for the government to do is get out of the way. As oil prices rise, people will demand and suppliers will provide alternative energy choices. Its how capitalism works and its still the best system in the world. We have been spoiled on cheap energy for a long time and now its starting to turn and it will force us to find alternatives.  If the government really wanted to push alternative fuels technology, the best economic way would be to tax the crap on oil which would force people to look for, demand and ultimately allow the private sector to deliver alternatives. I am not advocating that, but my point is that IF the government wanted alternative fuels (because of global warming, dependence on rogue nations in the middle east or whatever reason), they would be more effective by incentivizing change by making it more expensive rather than trying to pick the right technologies through subsidizing them (like ethanol).

Free

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grc

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2008, 09:40:53 AM »

The best thing for the government to do is get out of the way. As oil prices rise, people will demand and suppliers will provide alternative energy choices. Its how capitalism works and its still the best system in the world. We have been spoiled on cheap energy for a long time and now its starting to turn and it will force us to find alternatives.  If the government really wanted to push alternative fuels technology, the best economic way would be to tax the crap on oil which would force people to look for, demand and ultimately allow the private sector to deliver alternatives. I am not advocating that, but my point is that IF the government wanted alternative fuels (because of global warming, dependence on rogue nations in the middle east or whatever reason), they would be more effective by incentivizing change by making it more expensive rather than trying to pick the right technologies through subsidizing them (like ethanol).

Free

Exactly!  This subject was debated fairly heavily during fuel glitches back in the 70's and 80's, but our career politicians didn't have the cajones (or brains) to add taxes to motor fuel to gradually force the populace toward higher efficiency vehicles, and ultimately toward alternate fuels.  Unfortunately, the inaction of our "leaders" over the past few decades means that we now get to experience major changes to our lifestyles rather than a gradual adjustment over time. 

I'm taking bets about what will happen once the current speculator driven pricing stabilizes (I'm thinking we will see oil prices retreat later this year to something closer to $80 per barrel).  Just as in the past, when the immediate problem starts to ease with the retreat in prices at the pump, this subject will once more be ignored by our government and the average citizen.  It will be business as usual, and those huge vehicles will once again be flying off dealers lots.  Face it, we Americans seem to enjoy doing what is ultimately not good for us.  Lousy diets that are slowly killing us, easy credit that is encouraging poor economic choices, wasting resources faster than any other group in the world.  And when it all catches up to us, we don't step back and say, "I sure was a dumb ass".  Oh no, we all sit back and look for someone else to blame for our crappy health, our unmanageable debt, or the fact we don't have cheap gas anymore.   

Jerry
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MJZ

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2008, 10:56:00 AM »

I just found out this morning that all of the big battle wagon sportfish boats from our marina that head down south for the winter and return in the spring are not going to return. I understand fuel in still running under $1:00 a gallon in Dominican Republic and areas of eastern Mexico $.75. They are going to keep their boats where they winter and just fly down every other weekend. I used to burn at least 1,200 per day of sport fishing, a savings of over $3,600 per day. :o
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Banana man

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Re: How Much More Scamming Will We Take?
« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2008, 04:16:27 PM »

Well I don't know about all of you but, it really makes me mad
when Exxon posts a 40 billion dollar profit for one quarter of a
year and the average family in this area cannot afford to fill up
the car even once a week!!!!

If the oil companies could learn to live on ONLY 40 billion in
profits per year we might have fuel prices that everyone could afford. >:( :soapbox:


                                                 Mark
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