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fxdsebeloved

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For what it's worth
« on: May 25, 2008, 08:29:47 AM »

For what it's worth, I took my scoot in for a regular 10k service.  I was asked if I had any issues with the bike.  Outside of some minor issues, (Horn not working and Flaking Chrome)  Told them ever since the bike had the "famous fix" done, I would here a "clacking noise" coming from under the gas tank. (Lifters, bad fuel?) when I would throttled up between 3k to 3,500k rpms. this would not happen all the time.  So after 3 service techs took it for a test ride and a extra day in the shop, they finally heard what I was hearing. The dealer asked me if I could bring the bike back Thursday May 29th.  I was told they had the approval from MoCo to have the midwest regional service manager come down and take it for a ride.  Don't know what to make of this, but it's worth taking a Vacation day to see this.  :2vrolijk_21:
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2008, 12:06:32 PM »

YES it is. There is a REAL FIX coming from the MOCO real soon. I mean real soon. I can't really discuss it on here as of yet. BUT IT IS ON THE WAY. I would think they will have the parts for the repairs in about 3 weeks.


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THE DAWG
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2008, 03:08:53 PM »

YES it is. There is a REAL FIX coming from the MOCO real soon. I mean real soon. I can't really discuss it on here as of yet. BUT IT IS ON THE WAY. I would think they will have the parts for the repairs in about 3 weeks.


Be Safe

THE DAWG

Sound's interesting Dawg. Can't wait to hear what they are proposing. Will you start a new thread once the info is released please.

 :2vrolijk_21:

Nige
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2008, 04:24:53 AM »

Sound's interesting Dawg. Can't wait to hear what they are proposing. Will you start a new thread once the info is released please.
 :2vrolijk_21:

Nige

Yes I will. You will be getting a letter real soon. The MOCO has been working on a fix for some time now. I know there have been a few doing nothing but crying about this. Something like this takes time to find a fix, manufacture the parts, get the fix to the dealers, and then get letters out to the owners.

It is on the way!

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2008, 04:34:55 AM »

Yes I will. You will be getting a letter real soon. The MOCO has been working on a fix for some time now. I know there have been a few doing nothing but crying about this. Something like this takes time to find a fix, manufacture the parts, get the fix to the dealers, and then get letters out to the owners.

It is on the way!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Good stuff. I wonder if they will get the letter out to their European customers at the same time as their USA customers.

Nige
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skreminegul07

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2008, 08:02:48 AM »

Yes I will. You will be getting a letter real soon. The MOCO has been working on a fix for some time now. I know there have been a few doing nothing but crying about this. Something like this takes time to find a fix, manufacture the parts, get the fix to the dealers, and then get letters out to the owners.

It is on the way!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Do you have one?  If not, you just don't get it.

The friggin letter should have been written a year ago letting people know that they actually care and that they are working on it.  It's called goodwill, public relations, and even customer service.  And BTW, I'll believe it when I see it.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 09:03:23 AM by skreminegul07 »
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2008, 08:42:10 AM »

Do you have one?  If not, you just don't get it.
The friggin letter should have been written a year ago letting people know that they actually care and that they are working on it.  It's call goodwill, public relations, and even customer service.  And BTW, I'll believe it when I see it.

No I don't have one. I was one of the smart ones that knew of the problem. I have an 08 Dyna sitting at the dealer right now. I will not touch it till the fix comes along.

What gets me is some people knew of the problem brought the bike anyway and keep crying about it. There are a few on this board that have been it constant communcation with the MOCO about this problem. They bypassed the dealer who won't tell you anything and they won't do anything about it. They went straight to the top. So tell me. How many times have you called Milwaukee?????

IF THEY SENT YOU THE LETTER A YEAR AGO what did you want them to say? We have a problem and don't know how to fix it!

No matter what gets done or how it gets done. Some people just don't get it!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2008, 08:52:08 AM »

Dawg

I bought the bike unaware of the problems. Had the cylinder liner move on me and viola. I made the decision to use Axtell cylinders knowing the MoCo would fix this sooner or later. My choice, not whining! I just hope the fix is coming and it works. I want to see Harley continue to succeed,
Now if I can just get my hands on those replacement cylinders.....Hmmmm  A 110 03 Fat Boy!

JW
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2008, 08:56:47 AM »

No I don't have one. I was one of the smart ones that knew of the problem. I have an 08 Dyna sitting at the dealer right now. I will not touch it till the fix comes along.

What gets me is some people knew of the problem brought the bike anyway and keep crying about it. There are a few on this board that have been it constant communcation with the MOCO about this problem. They bypassed the dealer who won't tell you anything and they won't do anything about it. They went straight to the top. So tell me. How many times have you called Milwaukee?????

IF THEY SENT YOU THE LETTER A YEAR AGO what did you want them to say? We have a problem and don't know how to fix it!

No matter what gets done or how it gets done. Some people just don't get it!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG


Dawg

Your post here are pissing people off.
When will there be a letter? Your post of  "it's on the way" means nothing.
Your a big boy, you know "it's on the way" is no different than, "the checks in the mail".
It's a good thing your name wasn't on the "chithead" poll. You would have given me and BB a run.
Dawg, the people here are just as passionate about their 110's as you are about any of your bikes. Rubbing a letter in their faces is not right. Get a copy of it and post it. Till you can do that, don't wave it's existence around like you know more than everyone else.

I say the above as a friend.
It's okay if the checks in the mail.
But it needs to get here.
And sooner is better than later!

SBB

 :2vrolijk_21:
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skreminegul07

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2008, 09:01:06 AM »

No I don't have one. I was one of the smart ones that knew of the problem. I have an 08 Dyna sitting at the dealer right now. I will not touch it till the fix comes along.

What gets me is some people knew of the problem brought the bike anyway and keep crying about it. There are a few on this board that have been it constant communcation with the MOCO about this problem. They bypassed the dealer who won't tell you anything and they won't do anything about it. They went straight to the top. So tell me. How many times have you called Milwaukee?????

IF THEY SENT YOU THE LETTER A YEAR AGO what did you want them to say? We have a problem and don't know how to fix it!

No matter what gets done or how it gets done. Some people just don't get it!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

First, I bought my SERK3 in August of 2006 before any issues with the 110 were posted.  I would NOT have bought one if I had heard of these issues.

Secondly, after the first leak that reoccurred, (May 07)I did contact Milwaukee Customer Service about ten times, with documented names, dates, times,and without satisfaction, I wrote to the CEO, copying VP os PowerTrain, VP of Your, and VP of Customer service, each with the correct name and each to the correct address.  The letters were sent certified.  5 days later, customer Service called and we were able to wrk out a plan to resolution which included having the crank checked at their expense, replacing both cylinders, pistons, etc. and new tranny that repeatedly leaked.  All parts were ordered and in place before dropping off the bike.  Upon disassembly, the crank was found bad and motor replaced.

Third point, yes, they could have written a letter that said something along these lines "there may be a design/ component issue and while we do not have ther long term fix, we are working on it and we will stand behing this motor and make it right.  Thank you for your patience AND LOYALTY....."
I do get it.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 09:02:48 AM by skreminegul07 »
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2008, 09:08:50 AM »

No I don't have one. I was one of the smart ones that knew of the problem. I have an 08 Dyna sitting at the dealer right now. I will not touch it till the fix comes along.

What gets me is some people knew of the problem brought the bike anyway and keep crying about it. There are a few on this board that have been it constant communcation with the MOCO about this problem. They bypassed the dealer who won't tell you anything and they won't do anything about it. They went straight to the top. So tell me. How many times have you called Milwaukee?????

IF THEY SENT YOU THE LETTER A YEAR AGO what did you want them to say? We have a problem and don't know how to fix it!

No matter what gets done or how it gets done. Some people just don't get it!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

And what does that mean?  When did you learn of the problem?  And if it's not a big deal to cry about,  you should have just sucked it up and bought one, right?
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2008, 09:15:47 AM »

has anyone heard of a square base gaket ?, last sat. i was shown a bulletin about a square not round base gasket. just trying to ask about a new development :drink:
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murphy

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2008, 09:15:55 AM »

Wow... it going to get ugly in here!
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2008, 10:32:28 AM »

Dawg

I'm not pissed. It was my responsibility to look into the 110's before I bought one. I simply trusted Harley to put out a motor they knew would be reliable. Like all my other Harleys. My bad for trusting them. However, a company should always deliver good customer service. They needed to step up, say they are experiencing a problem but it will be resolved. I'm not looking for perfection from them, just honesty.

Again, I hope the "fix" is genuine. It is in all of our best interest. I don't want to own a Harley that everyone thinks is junk.

JW
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2008, 10:47:40 AM »


Dawg

Your post here are pissing people off.When will there be a letter? Your post of  "it's on the way" means nothing.
Your a big boy, you know "it's on the way" is no different than, "the checks in the mail".
It's a good thing your name wasn't on the "chithead" poll. You would have given me and BB a run.
Dawg, the people here are just as passionate about their 110's as you are about any of your bikes. Rubbing a letter in their faces is not right. Get a copy of it and post it. Till you can do that, don't wave it's existence around like you know more than everyone else.

I say the above as a friend.
It's okay if the checks in the mail.
But it needs to get here.
And sooner is better than later!

SBB

 :2vrolijk_21:


CHIP you know I love you. I love you soooo much I want to be just you when I grow up. LMAO!!!!!

As far as the letter,r in the rumor mill they are saying 3 weeks. It may be a little longer. I know it is all waiting on the parts being sent to the dealers. Nothing will happen till then!

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2008, 10:49:32 AM »

No I don't have one. I was one of the smart ones that knew of the problem. I have an 08 Dyna sitting at the dealer right now. I will not touch it till the fix comes along.

What gets me is some people knew of the problem brought the bike anyway and keep crying about it. There are a few on this board that have been it constant communcation with the MOCO about this problem. They bypassed the dealer who won't tell you anything and they won't do anything about it. They went straight to the top. So tell me. How many times have you called Milwaukee?????

IF THEY SENT YOU THE LETTER A YEAR AGO what did you want them to say? We have a problem and don't know how to fix it!

No matter what gets done or how it gets done. Some people just don't get it!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG
After meeting the Dawg in York I'd like to believe it'd be wrong to take the above statement so literal.  :nixweiss: I for one picked up my 08 SERK in Aug. of 07 long before I found the cvoharley.com family and learned of this engine snafu. There is a measure of dissapointment that coincides with dealing, as an owner, with this long standing MOCO problem. I guess unless you walk in our shoes it's tuff to "get it". In many cases the dealers have been down right disrespectful to a customer base that is very loyal and there have been cases where MOCO customer service has been slow to respond up to and including "forgetting" to return calls.  :soapbox:

Howie
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2008, 10:49:49 AM »

And what does that mean?  When did you learn of the problem?  And if it's not a big deal to cry about,  you should have just sucked it up and bought one, right?

IF I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT ONE, it would not be stock!!!!!!!

Problems or not I would have been into the motor after the 1k service!

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2008, 10:50:51 AM »

Wow... it going to get ugly in here!

No not ugly just informative!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2008, 10:51:59 AM »

No I don't have one. I was one of the smart ones that knew of the problem. I have an 08 Dyna sitting at the dealer right now. I will not touch it till the fix comes along.

What gets me is some people knew of the problem brought the bike anyway and keep crying about it. There are a few on this board that have been it constant communcation with the MOCO about this problem. They bypassed the dealer who won't tell you anything and they won't do anything about it. They went straight to the top. So tell me. How many times have you called Milwaukee?????

IF THEY SENT YOU THE LETTER A YEAR AGO what did you want them to say? We have a problem and don't know how to fix it!

No matter what gets done or how it gets done. Some people just don't get it!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Why don't you give them the contact info for Milwaukee??  That way everyone on here can contact them directly and You can save them the frustration of dealing with a dealership that won't do anything about it!!!   :2vrolijk_21:  Just a thought....

 :)
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2008, 10:52:35 AM »

Dawg

I'm not pissed. It was my responsibility to look into the 110's before I bought one. I simply trusted Harley to put out a motor they knew would be reliable. Like all my other Harleys. My bad for trusting them. However, a company should always deliver good customer service. They needed to step up, say they are experiencing a problem but it will be resolved. I'm not looking for perfection from them, just honesty.Again, I hope the "fix" is genuine. It is in all of our best interest. I don't want to own a Harley that everyone thinks is junk.

JW

JW through all of the problems people have had with the 110 motors. You just said it better than anyone!

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2008, 11:00:22 AM »

YES it is. There is a REAL FIX coming from the MOCO real soon. I mean real soon. I can't really discuss it on here as of yet. BUT IT IS ON THE WAY. I would think they will have the parts for the repairs in about 3 weeks.


Be Safe

THE DAWG

Well you are discussing it here and since you already went into it, maybe you should tell what you know.  Otherwise, you're just going to do as Chip said and piss people off. 

No not ugly just informative!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG


It's not informative at all.  You're just playing games.  "A real fix is coming...and I mean real soon...but I can't really tell you what it is!"  This isn't high school, Dawg!  These people spent more than some people make in a year on their rides.  Just spill it.  You're ruining your credibility! 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 11:02:28 AM by TheVgirl »
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2008, 11:03:52 AM »

No I don't have one. I was one of the smart ones that knew of the problem. I have an 08 Dyna sitting at the dealer right now. I will not touch it till the fix comes along.

What gets me is some people knew of the problem brought the bike anyway and keep crying about it. There are a few on this board that have been it constant communcation with the MOCO about this problem. They bypassed the dealer who won't tell you anything and they won't do anything about it. They went straight to the top. So tell me. How many times have you called Milwaukee?????

IF THEY SENT YOU THE LETTER A YEAR AGO what did you want them to say? We have a problem and don't know how to fix it!

No matter what gets done or how it gets done. Some people just don't get it!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Once again I am asking when did you "know" about the problem?  Before July 06, September 06, or was it 2007? 
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2008, 11:05:19 AM »

Well you are discussing it here and since you already went into it, maybe you should tell what you know.  Otherwise, you're just going to do as Chip said and piss people off. 


It's not informative at all.  You're just playing games.  "A real fix is coming...and I mean real soon...but I can't really tell you what it is!"  This isn't high school, Dawg!  These people spent more than some people make in a year on their rides.  Just spill it.  You're ruining your credibility!  
That went faster than my first set of Head Gaskets.
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2008, 11:06:17 AM »

After meeting the Dawg in York I'd like to believe it'd be wrong to take the above statement so literal.  :nixweiss: I for one picked up my 08 SERK in Aug. of 07 long before I found the cvoharley.com family and learned of this engine snafu. There is a measure of dissapointment that coincides with dealing, as an owner, with this long standing MOCO problem. I guess unless you walk in our shoes it's tuff to "get it". In many cases the dealers have been down right disrespectful to a customer base that is very loyal and there have been cases where MOCO customer service has been slow to respond up to and including "forgetting" to return calls.  :soapbox:

Howie

HOWIE a lot of people that bought the 110's had no idea till about 2 months into the delivery. The fix as I understand has been difficult. I am not sure but it may have been a problem with an outside vendor. When they release it I think everyone will understand more.

Not trying to stir up too much CHIT here (looks like I have not done a good job). I had a little info and a few want to climb on my back. All I was doing was letting them have some info that is not public knowledge as of yet. If they don't want it fine I won't pass any more. Then they need to call the MOCO to get any info. I know a few on here have done just that. We had a little chat about the problem and the fix last week.

DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!!!!!!

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2008, 11:09:16 AM »

Well you are discussing it here and since you already went into it, maybe you should tell what you know.  Otherwise, you're just going to do as Chip said and piss people off. 


It's not informative at all.  You're just playing games.  "A real fix is coming...and I mean real soon...but I can't really tell you what it is!"  This isn't high school, Dawg!  These people spent more than some people make in a year on their rides.  Just spill it.  You're ruining your credibility! 

OK Mrs Perfect. You sit in front of a computer all day. Goggle the number and you start making calls and help all of your friends out.

I have INSIDE INFO that is not or intended to be PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE at this time. Someone could lose their job over this!

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2008, 11:11:41 AM »

Wow Peeps. Why are we attacking each other?? :confused5: We have some member(s) sharing what little they know and getting there heads chopped off for it. It appears to me (and no I don't have a 110 and it doesn't personally affect me) that some members are trying to let others know there is light at the end of the tunnel. Do they know what all the light is probably not (MoCo has been known for being good with holding information). :nixweiss: Thing about it is if they didn't say anything and then said after the fact they knew something was coming then there would be some that would be pissed. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :(

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2008, 11:11:51 AM »

That went faster than my first set of Head Gaskets.
[/color]

Well I don;t own one of those POS so I really don't have to worry about it anymore. I guess you can sit on here and CRY ME A RIVER!!!! Maybe I am wrong maybe there is no letter coming! I guess time will tell!

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2008, 11:13:53 AM »

HOWIE a lot of people that bought the 110's had no idea till about 2 months into the delivery. The fix as I understand has been difficult. I am not sure but it may have been a problem with an outside vendor. When they release it I think everyone will understand more.

Not trying to stir up too much CHIT here (looks like I have not done a good job). I had a little info and a few want to climb on my back. All I was doing was letting them have some info that is not public knowledge as of yet. If they don't want it fine I won't pass any more. Then they need to call the MOCO to get any info. I know a few on here have done just that. We had a little chat about the problem and the fix last week.

DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

While we appreciate the knowledge and comraderie of this site and its members, don't hide behingd the messenger BS.  You made the statement about the members crying about the problem and not doing anything to fix it.  I doubt that was necessary and I know it wasn't welcome.
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2008, 11:14:49 AM »

Wow Peeps. Why are we attacking each other?? :confused5: We have some member(s) sharing what little they know and getting there heads chopped off for it. It appears to me (and no I don't have a 110 and it doesn't personally affect me) that some members are trying to let others know there is light at the end of the tunnel. Do they know what all the light is probably not (MoCo has been known for being good with holding information). :nixweiss: Thing about it is if they didn't say anything and then said after the fact they knew something was coming then there would be some that would be pissed. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :( :pumpkin:
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DOOD I agree. I know a few others on this board that know of the same info I got. It is being kept tight lipped in Milwaukee at this time. I do know the fix has been in testing for some time.

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2008, 11:17:24 AM »

While we appreciate the knowledge and comraderie of this site and its members, don't hide behingd the messenger BS.  You made the statement about the members crying about the problem and not doing anything to fix it.  I doubt that was necessary and I know it wasn't welcome.
 

WELL QUIT CRYING!!!!!!! The fix is on the way. If it is that bad I have a very good running and very stock 103 you can borrow till the fix arrives!!!! FOR A FEE!!!!!

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ccr

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2008, 11:19:13 AM »

Great news that there is an actualy fix in the works.

Great!  Late ------ But still Great!

Thanks for sharing some inside info especially for those who lept at this new bike and have been left holding the proverbial bag.  

Lets hope the info is out soon, fixes getting scheduled timely and it does the trick completely.
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2008, 11:20:31 AM »

 

WELL QUIT CRYING!!!!!!! The fix is on the way. If it is that bad I have a very good running and very stock 103 you can borrow till the fix arrives!!!! FOR A FEE!!!!!

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I guess you are not going to answer when you knew about the issues, are you?  I'm done. 
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2008, 11:20:59 AM »

OK Mrs Perfect. You sit in front of a computer all day. Goggle the number and you start making calls and help all of your friends out.

I have INSIDE INFO that is not or intended to be PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE at this time. Someone could lose their job over this!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Outsider lookin' in here, but there is a high degree of transparency here.  If the info WAS "INSIDE,"  it isn't any longer.  Dawg, you just made it "PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE."  Cat is out of the sack.  Time to let the rest of the litter loose.  This is the equivalent of "teasing," and that chit ain't right.  Seems to me "someone" needs to lose his/her job, since they can't keep their chops closed.  Loose lips sink ships.

JMNSHO.......FWIW.  Thanks for letting me speak my mind.
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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2008, 11:25:56 AM »

The problem about letting the cat out of the bag all the way is that sources may dry up and go away because of it. I'm sure DAWG's intent was to let owners plagued by the leak know that all is not lost and there is hope.

Please think of it like a preview of your favorite show. You've now got an idea what is going to happen but will have to tune in later to get all the details.  ;)

:indian_chief:
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2008, 11:29:50 AM »

I guess you are not going to answer when you knew about the issues, are you?  I'm done. 

About time!!!!

Just to answer your question. The same time everyone else was finding. Two months after the delivery of the 07's. That is when the problem started with heat issues and the leaks. And they have not gotten any better. Maybe worse.

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2008, 11:31:51 AM »

The problem about letting the cat out of the bag all the way is that sources may dry up and go away because of it. I'm sure DAWG's intent was to let owners plagued by the leak know that all is not lost and there is hope.

Please think of it like a preview of your favorite show. You've now got an idea what is going to happen but will have to tune in later to get all the details.  ;)

:indian_chief:

Yep just like a new movie!!!! Can someone say INDIANA JONES!!!!!


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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2008, 11:35:30 AM »

CHIP you know I love you. I love you soooo much I want to be just you when I grow up. LMAO!!!!!

As far as the letter,r in the rumor mill they are saying 3 weeks. It may be a little longer. I know it is all waiting on the parts being sent to the dealers. Nothing will happen till then!

Be Safe

THE DAWG


Dawg

Now that it's clear that we both think highly of each other consider this.
You have info about a fix but can't say what it is, so drop it.
There are many people on this site that (like V said) have major bucks in their rides and have gotten no attention from the Motor Company. Then you come along saying you know of a fix but don't tell them.
Can you blame them for being irritated?
So just lay low on the fix stuff and in three weeks we all will see if your right.
If you are then I will say, "Your da man, your delivery sucks, (kinda like mine) but your da man!"


But don't forget, I have always thought you were "da man", so it's only up hill from here!


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naitram

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Re: For what it's worth
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2008, 11:37:01 AM »

seems we cant play nice in this thread, so now we cant play at all in it
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