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Author Topic: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?  (Read 1691 times)

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HARLEYBILL

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ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« on: August 31, 2005, 10:29:08 AM »

Having satisfied my "Oil in Air Cleaner" concerns,would appreciate comments on the following:
Prior to getting my 2005 SEEG in July,05,I ran the gamut of modified FXR's and built 95" FLHT. So I was ready to pretty much ride a stock confiqured bike, but one with a little more kick than most stockers. As stated previously I only did the Stage One Kit and SE high performance slip ons with the required download.Oops,got caught in a lie here,I had Samson Ovals on at the time of download but almost immediately went back to the SE's. Things improved immediately with the back pressure created by the SE's.
Bike runs real good-spark plugs have a perfect light brown hue-starting is instataneous etc etc.
My concern is that in reading other posts I see comments regarding exhaust popping due to lean fuel delivery. I will get exhaust popping under decelleration conditions and also periodically when shifting from first to second gear at about 3,000 rpm. It's not a constant thing but seems to depend on engine temperature and altitude. Not to be confused with a loud backfire.
Harley will tell you that to get optimum performance a Race Tuner kit is required and that the download I did is more generic in nature and the lean exhaust popping would't happen if I left the stock Touring Mufflers on. That's a fact,I did try the originals but put the SE's back on. I also have had advice to do the Power Commander III. There's a terrific wrench at Black Hills Custom Parts in Rockaway N.J,Ken Puzio,who works magic with Power Commanders, but is this all necessary? Also do not have any detonation issues. As far as I'm concerned I can live with the current conditions as long as I'm not doing any long term damage to the motor. Just not sure if I need to get a perfect fuel curve and to richen things up some more. What I find interesting is a friend of mine had the exact same bike and options and never a "pop".
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GC_Super

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2005, 10:52:40 AM »

Personally, I figure if I spend the ridiculous amount of money that these bikes cost, then I might as well spend a little more for a PC and have it tuned properly. I wouldn't be happy otherwise.  But, if you're happy with the bike as it runs now, I wouldn't change it.
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GC_Super

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2005, 10:55:19 AM »

I also meant to say that if you're close to Black Hills Ken, I would be there in a heartbeat. He is a nice guy with an excellent reputation.   [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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110tHunDer

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2005, 11:03:47 AM »

Bill, I have an '04 with the Stage 1 air cleaner, SE one-piece slip-ons and the standard Stage 1 download.  I bought the race tuner with the bike, but just had the standard Stage 1 download from the RT installed, thinking I would just try that first before spending dyno tuning money.  Well, that, and the bike was new, so I didn't want to put it on the dyno right away.  I have a bit of the popping that you describe also, but not bad enough to me to go with a full-out dyno tune.  I had the bike on the dyno just to get numbers and the curves look smooth, so I did not get concerned.  99.8 peak torque, too, which is reasonable for my mods.  Yes, you could get the popping out with some tuning and probably pick up a ft-lb and hp, or two, but only you can decide if it's worth the expense.

It's not surprising to me that another bike with the same mods behaves differently.  It seems every one of these bikes has its own personality for some reason.  If the popping is not that bothersome to you, I'd leave well enough alone.  It's actually a slightly rich condition that is causing it, so unless it is severe, it should not be hurting a thing.
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Unbalanced

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2005, 11:44:58 AM »

I would suggest the race tuner in this event for this specific problem with the newest software 4.1.2 it has an accell and decell pump capability.  Although you have added information that would make me want to do the following.

Let me add that if you have a great tuner in your area with a super rep I would definately go down that road.  Only if I were doing this with a PC III usb I would install the harley stage 1 download and then have BlackHills tune the bike if you can not live with this popping.   He should be able to get rid of your decell problems.
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grc

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2005, 11:55:21 AM »

HarleyBill,

Let me preface this with the following disclaimer:  I have been known to be full of chit on one or two occasions in my lifetime, so don't take this as gospel.

I have basically the same mods as you, and I also didn't see any need to start on the never ending quest for that last tenth of a horsepower.  The bike runs well, with a lot more grunt than a TC88, and I'm not into trying to impress other folks with dyno charts or street racing.  If I wanted that sort of thing, there are much better choices out there than an Electra Glide.  If you are happy, and that's the only person that matters, there is no need to throw extra cash at the engine (save it for the seat, suspension, etc.  [smiley=laugh.gif])  Having said all that, I will tell you that I added a DFO ($150) and fine tuned the mixture a little.  Even with the stage 1 race calibration, the low speed and cruise mixture is still a little lean.  

Jerry
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HARLEYBILL

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2005, 01:50:09 PM »

GRC:
Appreciate the comments. I'm with you all the way except I want to get that cam chain tensioner out of the bike. I guess I'm from the old school of preventive maintenance but there have been enough problems down the road with this stock setup that I don't want to deal with it in the future. I'm a low end torque up to 5,000 guy who wants reliability before a few extra horsepower. (been there,done that!)
Cheers.
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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2005, 09:41:46 AM »

HarleyBill,

I agree with you that the tensioner as conceived by the MoCo leaves a lot to be desired.  I find it strange that other companies have been using similar devices for decades without major problems, but H-D can't seem to figure it out.  Of course, they won't even admit they have a problem.  (To be fair, I also have no first hand knowledge that the reported failures are H-D's fault and not the result of poor maintenance or abuse.)

I have already added to my 10k maintenance checklist to pull the cam cover and inspect the tensioners.  If I see any sign of abnormal wear, those puppies are history.  I've done some preliminary research on what is available, and so far I haven't seen a gear drive cam with specs similar to the H-D 251, which I believe would be excellent for midrange power.  The offerings from Andrews with similar duration and overlap have significantly less lift (.490" vs .570", for instance), and I'm not sure how well that would work in a 103.  If I decide to go with gear drive, I will contact Andrews and get their recommendation.  In the meantime, I'm sure the members who swap out their cams will share their experiences and results.  That's what make this site so great!

Jerry
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JimsSEEG

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2005, 01:48:20 PM »

I'll throw out my .02  -

Jerry makes a good point of talking to the cam manufacturers - ask the specifically what cam for your riding style and the desired end result. These need ot be very clear in the conversation.  After you have the discussions and get the info, take a moment of pause and ask yourself "are you sure your never wanting to do headwork". I say this from experience because "power is addictive".  Having ridden almost everything from a dirt bike to streetbikes to F1 unlimited roadracers, it's lots of fun to have usable power - the grin factor goes up exponentially.

When it comes down to it - headwork is probably the most single performance expensive item. Minor cleanup and decking will usually be $300 to $500 and you can run the gamut to billet heads and lots of work - only limited by the depth of your checkbook.
There are several types of headwork that can be considered. I used to work for a guy that jokingly called them "cleanin it up", "it's gonna breathe" and "hand me the big grinder". The minor clean up consisted of checking the chambers for proper cc size for the build and decking, a little cleanup on matching ports and making sure the valves / guides were in spec. The second phase usually involved cc'ing the heads, going with bigger valves, better guides and springs, port and runner shping, and flow testing to make sure things were identical. The third phase was usually the most intense: changing valve all of the other stuff, but a lot more, and changing valve angles, straightening runners and doing the complementary work in the intake to match the headwork. Needless to say, very few opted for the last choice - nothing like taking a set of $1000 heads and turning them into $5000 heads - especially if the heads get damaged if the engines blows and the new $5k heads are now good coffee table stands.

The only reason I mention this is - whatever the cam manufacture tells you is a guide, not a guarantee. There are variances in echaust choice, air filter / housing choices and especially in the tuner. The manufactur should be able to tell you cam x shold give you around this HP / tq and with minor head work (the cleanin it up) should get you this.  He should also be able to tell what type of exhaust the used in the testing 2 into 1, stock head pipes and slip-ons, etc. This makes a noticable difference in the final outcome.

Had this same discussion with a couple of buds a few years ago - we thought about setting up a shop that offered these type of choices. We found two severe limitations - first, people did not want to hear their new Brand X drag pipes they paid $600 for were killing thier bottom end and they needed something else. The second limitation was a tuner that new more than what the initials of SERT stood for. Still looking for a SERT tuner in TX or even the 5 state area that knows what is going on other than creating a "three pass canned map".

Not trying to influence, just adding comments on past and current experiences.

As the sign on the wall of the local speed shop read "Speed is a question of money - how much do you have? That ain't enough"

Jim
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hd2003-se2005

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2005, 05:08:13 PM »

Jim

Good post!

And BTW

let me know how the "needs and wants" topic was recieved!
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GC_Super

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2005, 07:52:07 PM »

Jim, I'm 50 years old, born and raised in TX, and I've never heard of Round Mouintain. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]  Where is it?  Sounds like a good destination for a ride. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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lugnut

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2005, 08:06:46 PM »

Quote
Jim, I'm 50 years old, born and raised in TX, and I've never heard of Round Mouintain. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 08:11:33 PM by lugnut57 »
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JimsSEEG

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Re: ADDITIONAL TWEAKING?
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2005, 11:16:54 PM »

GC, Lugnut's right, about 75 mi north of SA on Hwy 281...  RM proper consists of the Post Office, truck stop and the Auction Barn. For real excitement, we go to Marble Falls... I think population is about 110. If you sneeze and yawn as you drive thru, you'll be two mile past it before you realize. I usually tell people "I'm two miles past BFE" - I can actually do it with a straight face.

Lots of good rides thru the area. PM me when you get out this way...

Jim
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Jim


"Ophelia"

"pull that thing in here - it's not running good enough to scatter sh*& with a hay rake...."   E.K.
 

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