Topic: Dyno run results with the "110 Race Kit" (Read 11578 times)

moscooter · « **on:** May 02, 2009, 02:06:24 PM »

$:-\$
Well I just got my dyno chart today and had hoped it would show better results than it did.

I haven't figured out yet how to post pics here so I'll just say that it came out max torque =103.51 and max pwr=107.22

Now that's with about 500 break-in miles since the build that was done at 175 original miles. The (race kit) includes 10.5:1 pistons, ported heads with 2.125 intakes, 58mm throttle bodys and larger injectors and SE 260 cams. In addition, I got the new Vance/Hines "power duals" and rinehart mufflers.

Are there some of you that have done similar mods that can relate to these numbers or better.....Per the SE catalog and their (overly optimistic) graphs, I had hoped for at least 115 or so on the nums.

In reality though, I think I made a mistake since I really wanted more low-in grunt and the SE260 cams were NOT the choice for that.

PR3VS56 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 02, 2009, 02:26:00 PM »

As a rule of thumb for relative comparison, a well matched (components) build should produce minimum 1.1 x cubes to the rear wheel. 110 x 1.1 = 121 tq/hp

It's frustrating when you spend good money & end up with disappointing results. Believe me, I know. In the end, I re-did everything with the right builder AND the right SERT (or TTS) tuner. Gotta have both, then you'll be completely happy with your build.

Bixby · « **Reply #2 on:** May 02, 2009, 03:41:00 PM »

I did the 110 race kit ,fullsac 2" baffles and Vance & Hines power duals HP 114 / TQ 108. The power is great, pulls hard in all gears.

grc · « **Reply #3 on:** May 02, 2009, 05:32:22 PM »

Harley's own chart indicates that the 110 race kit should produce approximately 120 lb-ft @ 4500 rpm, and 117 hp @ 6000 rpm. I've found their charts in the SE catalog to be pretty close in the past, but have no experience with this particular kit. As you found, this isn't a low speed and midrange kit, it's designed for top end. Perhaps one of our experts could suggest a better cam that would still work with the heads and compression ratio you currently have.

Jerry

Unbalanced · « **Reply #4 on:** May 02, 2009, 06:41:00 PM »

Moscooter,

Are you sure the bike is not sumping oil ? New cam maybe they pinched the O ring putting the cam in ?

What was the bike tuned with? Do you have a copy of the map?
What kind of dyno was used in your tuning? Are you sure they really tuned the bike and didnt just put a map in it for you?

The cam you have in the bike is for top end not for low end more suited towards a dyna or a softail that someone wants to run up in the rpm range with. If you are sticking with all harley the 251 cam is a much better cam. There are other cams outside of Harley, just depends what your after and what your dealer will support for you.

Do you know which head gasket was used to figure out what your true compression is? 40 mm 50mm etc did they even check?
Did they check your cylinders to be sure they were round and correct?

Have you done a leak down test to be sure the rings are seated and you dont have issues? Have they or did they test for what your cylinder compression is?

Are you sure you do not have any intake or exhaust leaks?

Personally, I am not a fan for the pipe you have chosen to use, but there aren't all that many choices out there atm. I was hoping Kuryakyn or Rinehart would release their true duals for 09's but they havent yet.

Love to see your map to see against the base how much they modified it and such from its beginnings.

moscooter · « **Reply #5 on:** May 03, 2009, 02:26:14 PM »

Unbalanced...The shop has not yet given me all the dyno runs they were supposed to have done. They were to have done one with the "stock" 110 setup, then another with the V/H "trueduals" which were put on by mistake when they installed the 110 Race Kit. So they said we'll just leave them on there until you come back for the dyno tune after completing the break-in miles. The service mgr said he would make a dyno run with those pipes on before swapping them out for the "powerduals".......just to see what the difference might be.

Haven't had a chance to speak with the Serv. Mgr since the runs to ask any other questions yet. You can peek at my final run graph on Harley Zone where I still hang out.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #6 on:** May 03, 2009, 02:42:17 PM »

Unbalanced is correct. REMOVE THE CAMS!!!!! There are many other choices out there.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Unbalanced · « **Reply #7 on:** May 03, 2009, 03:44:43 PM »

Here is a copy of your dyno sheet here to keep it in order.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #8 on:** May 03, 2009, 04:03:25 PM »

Moscooter,

Looking forward to hearing about your conversation with the Service Manager. You just gave up a lot of torque where the bike needs it most.

If the bike is not sumping and has no leak down issues, My strongest suggestion is to change cams and investigate your tune. (Can't see your bike being tuned in 20 pulls) jmo.

An example to go by ... My 07 with just a Yuill Brothers bolt in cam, produced 116 / 104 with a 50mm throttlebody and injectors. The dynosheet is on the site here i will edit this later when i find it for ya.

My bike had rineharts on it, and 110mofo just had Yuill Brothers put the same cam in his bike and TTS tuner and Yuill Bro's true duals and the bike made 115/105 Me thinks something is wrong and it could be just the cams, but check the other stuff to be sure so you aren't chasing your tail.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #9 on:** May 08, 2009, 02:32:52 PM »

"I got the new Vance/Hines "power duals" and rinehart mufflers."

"I've found their charts in the SE catalog to be pretty close in the past,"

The recipe was not followed so the results can't be expected. Especially if a HD download for the Race Kit was used.

We are having great luck with just retaining all the factory parts and doing a little headwork, light mill for added compression and a Woods or Andrews cam. 118+ torque is common with even a poor tune.

If I had this combo and knowing what I know about the heads I would be looking at lower compression (not sure if the race kit has the 10.5 or 11/1 pistons MOCO offers them both) a little and a short cam such as a Woods TW7 for the bagger and to recapture the torque. Horsepower will be fine and ride shotgun.

moscooter · « **Reply #10 on:** May 09, 2009, 04:35:27 PM »

Well, here is the current situation. From this thread and my questions at another site I hang out with.....there seems to be answers to my problem by using different cam choices.

Problem I have now is............"Warranty"!!!

My service mgr informs me that HD will NOT honor the engine warrany with NON-HD cams installed. I have a brand new 2 yr warranty plus one extra yr. extended warranty. So it there is not an SE (HD) cam choice to fix my low-end torque issue, I'm in a 3 yr bind..........so it seems.

grc · « **Reply #11 on:** May 09, 2009, 05:58:20 PM »

Quote from: moscooter on May 09, 2009, 04:35:27 PM

Well, here is the current situation. From this thread and my questions at another site I hang out with.....there seems to be answers to my problem by using different cam choices.

Problem I have now is............"Warranty"!!!

My service mgr informs me that HD will NOT honor the engine warrany with NON-HD cams installed. I have a brand new 2 yr warranty plus one extra yr. extended warranty. So it there is not an SE (HD) cam choice to fix my low-end torque issue, I'm in a 3 yr bind..........so it seems.

moscooter, forgive me if I missed this but what model and year bike are we dealing with here, and who originally recommended the 110 race kit? The SE Pro 110 race kit is not by any stretch of the imagination street legal, and therefore any new bike powertrain warranty you had is already gone. Why your ace service manager didn't tell you that before you handed him the big bucks is a question I'll leave to you and him.

Jerry

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #12 on:** May 09, 2009, 11:06:12 PM »

SE251 will get it done and a factory download will definely not work a good custom tune will be needed or it will not run right. Timing needs to be addressed not just fuel.

moscooter · « **Reply #13 on:** May 10, 2009, 09:13:43 AM »

GRC.......Yup, we understand what the catalog says about (race only...parts). This is a brand new 2009 SE Ultra 110. I know I already had 110 cylinders, but new ones are a (part of) the "110 Race Kit".

YES, they are indeed warranting the whole thing and I got an extra year to boot. In fact, we had discussed as an alternative my purchase of a regular 96 Ultra and them altering it to become a 110. This would mean boring out the cases to accept the 110 jugs and (normally) an HD dealer would (NOT) cover that kind of modification.

This would have left me exposed if I had problems somewhere across the country and needed engine warranty service. Their answer to that was to have the servicing dealership call or contact them and they would "authorize" any necessary repairs.

I'm just explaining the above to tell ya how it would have worked to have warranty if I had gone that way.

Back to my original concern. I DO IN FACT have warranty for 3 years (one on extended) but service mgr is saying they can't maintain that warranty if we were to put in (non) Harley cams.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #14 on:** May 10, 2009, 10:01:24 AM »

Warrenty is obviously important to you so take it from a former dealer employee...
The warrenty offered to you on a "race" parts kit can be considered a "special consideration" by the installing dealer only. This could and would likely be ignored (motor problems only rest of the bike not effected) on the road at a another authorized dealer. That is the reality. If your dealer would pay a dealer out of town to do repairs on your bike it would come out of their pocket, the MOCO would not be involved. Warrenty is between dealer where the bike is for repair and the MOCO not dealer to dealer unless the home dealer was paying the out of town dealer.

A service contract can be considered null and void if either of the parties deviate from the stated agreement. A new contract needs to be written then to have any teeth in court if a failure ended in a despute

If I was entering into a contract such as this I would have the home dealer put all of the details in writing or make amendments to the OEM warrenty because there is specific verbage in direct conflict with the factory contract. If this is left as a verbal agreement then there will be no recourse for the bike owner if the dealer decides to ignore a problem and claim ignorance.

Probably more than you wanted to hear but bottom line the warrenty is just as good as a handshake agreement and honored by your own dealer.

Personally my 07 was delivered to me I trailered it home and immediately pulled the motor apart and decided day one to become the warrenty department for my motor. I will take the bike to the dealer for other issues.
Never looked back or have regrets.

In the years I have been around these bikes just seen too many guys play the dealer game with motor work and they spend more time argueing and waiting in the ques to be helped plus then the work in a lot of cases is not up to par.

No thanks not for me anyway, may suit others.

grc · « **Reply #15 on:** May 10, 2009, 10:02:22 AM »

Quote from: moscooter on May 10, 2009, 09:13:43 AM

GRC.......Yup, we understand what the catalog says about (race only...parts). This is a brand new 2009 SE Ultra 110. I know I already had 110 cylinders, but new ones are a (part of) the "110 Race Kit".

YES, they are indeed warranting the whole thing and I got an extra year to boot. In fact, we had discussed as an alternative my purchase of a regular 96 Ultra and them altering it to become a 110. This would mean boring out the cases to accept the 110 jugs and (normally) an HD dealer would (NOT) cover that kind of modification.

This would have left me exposed if I had problems somewhere across the country and needed engine warranty service. Their answer to that was to have the servicing dealership call or contact them and they would "authorize" any necessary repairs.

I'm just explaining the above to tell ya how it would have worked to have warranty if I had gone that way.

Back to my original concern. I DO IN FACT have warranty for 3 years (one on extended) but service mgr is saying they can't maintain that warranty if we were to put in (non) Harley cams.

So if I read that correctly, they (the dealer) are warranting the engine, not H-D. If they told you otherwise, it's BS. H-D will not knowingly get involved with modifications that are not 100% street legal and EPA certified, and paying warranty claims on race kits installed on a street ridden bike makes them complicit and possibly subject to a huge tampering fine. The only way I know of for the dealer to get H-D to pay is to file a false and fraudulent claim (and hope H-D doesn't catch them).

Since your dealership is in fact the warrantor in this case, I can't see any reason why installing an Andrews or other cam should be a big issue. It's not like they have to get permission from H-D, since it's not H-D's call. However, if they insist on sticking with H-D parts you could look at the SE251 which would be better than what you have now.

Jerry

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #16 on:** May 10, 2009, 10:18:02 AM »

Would agree 100% with that Jerry, not trying to gang up on the original poster but there are legal issues that are being broken here and the ethics of the dealers management holds the bag to stand up to their claims because the MOCO would just not go there. Not street legal is not street legal and that holds true for a SE260, a SE251, or an Andrews 55 cam in a customers bike, for example.

anglia48 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 10, 2009, 05:22:26 PM »

I did not have a base line to compare on my 110" 08 RK; Mods as follows: Reinhart true duals, Hi flow air cleaner, Slight porting, shaved the heads and Woods 590 Knight Prowler cams. 110 HP and 115 Trq. I'm happy with the performance.

moscooter · « **Reply #18 on:** May 10, 2009, 08:26:12 PM »

Guys........it's been a looooooong time ago, but I too took (Business Law) in college and have a pretty good understanding of verbal/written agreements and the difference.

Hopefully, we don't get into any piss*** contests about that. I would agree with the scenario where........if they're gonna "warranty" race parts and (HD won't)........why would they balk at non-Harley cams being in there.

That's a hell of a good question that will come up when I go back in after (Bike Week) which is going on right now.

Thanks for the input.

AXIL · « **Reply #19 on:** May 10, 2009, 09:13:32 PM »

moscooter, please bear with me, are you happy with the way the bike runs? if no than disregard. if yes than I'll
move on- my question is are you just unhappy with the dyno numbers? if yes then my question is what model of
dyno was your bike tuned on? if the dyno was a super flow then i would good with the numbers and if the dyno was
dyno jet then i would not be happy with the numbers. thay have a different way of calculating the numbers. but
it's comes out to the same amount of meat on the street. let me know. axil

GtreetSlide · « **Reply #20 on:** May 10, 2009, 09:29:06 PM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on May 03, 2009, 03:44:43 PM

Here is a copy of your dyno sheet here to keep it in order.

While your dealer may extend you warrenty on the 110 race kit, I'm pretty sure it's not a street legal kit so most dealers probably won't honor the warrenty anyway. I would scrap the whole warrety consideration and go with a different torque cams as others suggested.

As far as this chart is concerned ( I think this is yours?) I notice two things. One is a considerable low end dip and lack of a smooth torque curve. To me that raises the concern that the AFR is either really off base and/of your exhaust doesn't have adaquate back pressure for the motor. I think there is a lot to be gained with better tuning, even with this combination. Again, i'd go with a different cam choise more in line with your expectations..

jimbob

moscooter · « **Reply #21 on:** May 11, 2009, 09:19:43 AM »

Axil......it's a dynojet that was used in the tune process. However, (this is a "new" location for this dealership and a new facility with a new dyno machine)......the service mgr is beginning to think there may be some clitches with the new machine and it's software. He plans to have it checked out after Bike Week which is going on right now.

Why they (HD) geared the newer Tour models higher I have no clue. I wish they would have stuck with the final 3.37 to 1 that my ol 2001 Road King had. A lot easier to get out of the hole and going, just another reason to be concerned about poor low-end torque.

The bike is running pretty good, I would just like to get the lower rpm torque band higher and smoothed out and a cam change is likely the answer in addition to some more tune time on the dyno

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #22 on:** May 11, 2009, 10:58:27 AM »

AFR is either really off base

Perhaps but the bike is tuned by download and the pipe is non-spec. A good custom tune is mandatory. The pipe is a major influence, the cam is very big, the ports are very big, the timing is not proper either for maximum HP and torque. There are very few dealers that are true value added high performance solutions. The dealers that "get it" can and do tune well and offer packages that are better matched. That said the race package can work better but the recipe needs to be followed 100% including the pipe.

PR3VS56 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 11, 2009, 11:07:58 AM »

Quote from: Deweysheads on May 11, 2009, 10:58:27 AM

The pipe is a major influence, the cam is very big, the ports are very big, the timing is not proper either for maximum HP and torque.

Dewey, I'm with you, our bikes need timing adjustments to extract max hp/tq. But... do you know a tuner who is comfortable tuning with timing adjustments? I've been to two of the best, highly respected & recommended tuners, and they don't touch timing. They say it would take forever (using SERT or TTS). Maybe it's easier with a PC, but I don't like them. (thread drift, sorry, but it's beneficial to this thread too)

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #24 on:** May 11, 2009, 11:42:12 AM »

Yep
There are many tuners of this caliber. The 06up bikes especially respond to timing adjustments from a stock map. I don't know about the 110 race map specifically and what is going on there. Any good tuner tunes by knowledge of the bikes and IC engine knowlege nt by recipe and know very well what to give them to get them to run

PR3VS56 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 11, 2009, 12:31:44 PM »

If you know of any on the West Coast I would sure appreciate you posting their names. You can PM me if you like.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #26 on:** May 11, 2009, 01:20:52 PM »

You have already been there, IIRC
RC Cycles
Hayward, CA
There are others in So Cal but I have been out of the area for so long not up to speed on the good tuners.

PR3VS56 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 11, 2009, 08:50:02 PM »

Sorry to tell you -- Bob only does AFR.

hd-dude · « **Reply #28 on:** May 12, 2009, 04:28:57 PM »

Quote from: PR3VS56 on May 11, 2009, 08:50:02 PM

Sorry to tell you -- Bob only does AFR.

Not on the bikes he tunes for me

CVOJOE · « **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2009, 07:38:16 PM »

Quote from: hd-dude on May 12, 2009, 04:28:57 PM

Not on the bikes he tunes for me

True that.........Bob is an artist too!

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #30 on:** May 13, 2009, 10:32:16 AM »

The poster in #27 had issues with Bob at RC Cycles, no need to beat that horse, and it has been all over the net on other forums. Many happy customers and an honest dyno.

PR3VS56 · « **Reply #31 on:** May 13, 2009, 11:57:22 AM »

Quote from: Deweysheads on May 13, 2009, 10:32:16 AM

The poster in #27 had issues with Bob at RC Cycles, no need to beat that horse, and it has been all over the net on other forums. Many happy customers and an honest dyno.

I had several issues there, which have all been resolved -- and I harbor no malice against Bob or RC Cycles.

That said, before any issues arose Bob did a great job tuning my bike. But, he was done & pulling off wires when I asked if he was going to adjust timing. He said no, the bike runs fine & he would only adjust timing if there was a problem. I asked about adjusting timing to squeeze out a little more power -- he said OK, put the wires back on, and did 2 more runs with adjusted timing (increased power was the result - I think 1 ft lb tq, which he said I wouldn't feel and maybe that's true). Had I not asked, timing wouldn't have been touched.

I know and agree that Bob is a talented tuner. My experience with tuners has been that they look for straight line AFR.

Back in the day we would work timing and fuel on the dyno with 1 goal in mind -- max power/tq. It seems like that's not really done today. Straight line AFR is the goal with the exception of adjustments made with AFR to take away torque dip. My experience anyway. Not wanting to open up a can of worms, just posting my experience.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #32 on:** May 13, 2009, 01:29:40 PM »

A thread drift
The original poster needs a good tune, no doubt because the Race Kit pipe was not used.
A good tune includes individual cylinder mapping, timing checked for ion sensing activity and corrections made and timing for WOT power without ping activity verified, and all part throttle and loads sampled and VEs corrected. Once the VEs are corrected if closed loop the AFR is proper and WOT / high load situations are covered as well.
In my case here in Tacoma, WA area that means a trip to Canada, BC! So not any easy task for sure. For others another solution is TTS for closed loop bikes and TMax. This enables an end user to tune themselves and the TTS can do Data runs to verify acceleration and ping activity (a little time consuming and techy for some).

geezerglide · « **Reply #33 on:** May 13, 2009, 04:58:58 PM »

Quote from: Deweysheads on May 13, 2009, 01:29:40 PM

A thread drift
The original poster needs a good tune, no doubt because the Race Kit pipe was not used.
A good tune includes individual cylinder mapping, timing checked for ion sensing activity and corrections made and timing for WOT power without ping activity verified, and all part throttle and loads sampled and VEs corrected. Once the VEs are corrected if closed loop the AFR is proper and WOT / high load situations are covered as well.
In my case here in Tacoma, WA area that means a trip to Canada, BC! So not any easy task for sure. For others another solution is TTS for closed loop bikes and TMax. This enables an end user to tune themselves and the TTS can do Data runs to verify acceleration and ping activity (a little time consuming and techy for some).

Dewey,

You mention in your post for a proper tune you go to Canada, BC. If I were to guess would that be to Lee Uhrich's Shop JARZ Performance in Abbotsford, BC? If not who>

geezerglide

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #34 on:** May 13, 2009, 05:45:08 PM »

Yep, that's right. I have watched and participated in a tune there and was very impressed. They also broke the bike in on the dyno very sensibly IMO

jfh · « **Reply #35 on:** May 13, 2009, 06:36:20 PM »

Quote from: anglia48 on May 10, 2009, 05:22:26 PM

I did not have a base line to compare on my 110" 08 RK; Mods as follows: Reinhart true duals, Hi flow air cleaner, Slight porting, shaved the heads and Woods 590 Knight Prowler cams. 110 HP and 115 Trq. I'm happy with the performance.

Wood 590 Knight Prowler cam? Nothing on their website about that particular cam. Can you provide details?

geezerglide · « **Reply #36 on:** May 13, 2009, 07:02:34 PM »

Quote from: Deweysheads on May 13, 2009, 05:45:08 PM

Yep, that's right. I have watched and participated in a tune there and was very impressed. They also broke the bike in on the dyno very sensibly IMO

I have been going to Lee for tuning for the past five years, he had done my 95" build, my Jims 120 build got me 131hp and 134tq with proper tuning and just last July he got me 103.6hp and 116.7tq out of my SE103, with dave Mackie, 598 cams, head work by Charlie (SBC), Supertrapp SuperMeg 2:1 rest engine stock, Baker DD6 trans.

I have a run trip of approx. 1,300 miles both ways (Calgary to Abbotsford, BC and back) for him to work on my bike, so far the best I have found in western Canada. when he tuned the Jims 120, Roger came up from Bellingham to watch Lee the tune and dyno. Another thing about Lee he will let you watch and participate, where other tuners will not let you in the Dyno Room.

geezerglide

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #37 on:** May 13, 2009, 07:53:21 PM »

I was very skeptical!
Funny thing is after about an hour I backed off watching. I knew they were well versed and the bike was going to be well tuned just by watching their technique. They gave me all the software too the Winpep run files and the tune map.

anglia48 · « **Reply #38 on:** May 13, 2009, 11:20:22 PM »

hdfr 120; I believe the cam numbers were Woods TW-8-6. Around 240 duration and 590 lift. Not sure on the other specs. But so far the motor runs cooler by about 20-30 degrees. Of course up here in Canada it is still fairly cool outside too. But on a recent trip 1000 miles from Calgary to Great Falls Montana the bike only hot 210 degrees in 75-80 degree temps in Montana.

Steve

JeffsHogPen · « **Reply #39 on:** May 21, 2009, 04:54:14 PM »

This has been a very good thread. I think that I have learned a lot. To Unbalanced....was your bike running the stock 9:3.1 compression pistons ? Or was it with 10:1 compression Pistons that you got the 110 hp. ? Also what does the SE 251 that helps with the hp and torque that the 255 does not ? I would like to leave the 9:3.1 compression if I can. Changing cams, heads ported and polished and throttle body is no problem. Any other ideas. In December when I had the Vance and Hines 2 into 2, big breather, and SE Race Tuner installed it has 96.8 hp with 122.7 tq. I would like to keep the torque and get more hp.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #40 on:** May 21, 2009, 10:23:19 PM »

Quote from: JeffsHogPen on May 21, 2009, 04:54:14 PM

This has been a very good thread. I think that I have learned a lot. To Unbalanced....was your bike running the stock 9:3.1 compression pistons ? Or was it with 10:1 compression Pistons that you got the 110 hp. ? Also what does the SE 251 that helps with the hp and torque that the 255 does not ? I would like to leave the 9:3.1 compression if I can. Changing cams, heads ported and polished and throttle body is no problem. Any other ideas. In December when I had the Vance and Hines 2 into 2, big breather, and SE Race Tuner installed it has 96.8 hp with 122.7 tq. I would like to keep the torque and get more hp.

Stock Pistons, Rinehart Exhaust and Harley Stage 1 roll your own with a K&N air filter was 116/104 using the bolt in cam from Yuill Brothers.

When I got the 127/122 it was with Cycle Rama build

10.5 to 1 Mahle Pistons (HD)
58mm HPI Throttle body with 4.89 injectors
SERT
Cycle Rama 595 Cam
Cycle Rama Headwork
Cycle Rama Build and Tune
Cometic .030 headgaskets
New Stock Lifters
S&S pushrods
Rinehart True Duals with 2 1/4 baffles

Combined both dyno sheets for you Jeffshogpen

JeffsHogPen · « **Reply #41 on:** May 22, 2009, 08:38:40 AM »

Thanks for your input and giving me the complete specs. to work with.... now I know what it will take to achieve these kinds of numbers. I appreciate it....Jeff

moscooter · « **Reply #42 on:** June 02, 2009, 11:28:43 AM »

"So if I read that correctly, they (the dealer) are warranting the engine, not H-D. If they told you otherwise, it's BS. H-D will not knowingly get involved with modifications that are not 100% street legal and EPA certified, and paying warranty claims on race kits installed on a street ridden bike makes them complicit and possibly subject to a huge tampering fine. The only way I know of for the dealer to get H-D to pay is to file a false and fraudulent claim (and hope H-D doesn't catch them).

Since your dealership is in fact the warrantor in this case, I can't see any reason why installing an Andrews or other cam should be a big issue. It's not like they have to get permission from H-D, since it's not H-D's call. However, if they insist on sticking with H-D parts you could look at the SE251 which would be better than what you have now.

Jerry"

Jerry........Your conclusion above is (incorrect). I questioned my service mgr about this and was advised that he has had HD warranty cover race tuners and other non (street legal) items and has a 99% warranty rating. Maybe that has been your experience, but not here.

Now, with that said.....we're yet to conclude how we address warranty if we plug in a non-HD set of cams to get the results I'm after. I'll relate that when I find out.

grc · « **Reply #43 on:** June 02, 2009, 08:40:57 PM »

Quote

Jerry........Your conclusion above is (incorrect). I questioned my service mgr about this and was advised that he has had HD warranty cover race tuners and other non (street legal) items and has a 99% warranty rating. Maybe that has been your experience, but not here.

Now, with that said.....we're yet to conclude how we address warranty if we plug in a non-HD set of cams to get the results I'm after. I'll relate that when I find out.

I stand firmly by my statement. As a one-time automotive service rep, I'm totally familiar with how manufacturer's deal with warranty and with emission tampering. I strongly suggest you get your information directly from the MoCo, not from some dealership service manager who has an incentive to tell you what you want to hear.

No skin off my nose one way or the other, but I do like to try to help steer folks in the right direction when I can.

Jerry

moscooter · « **Reply #44 on:** June 03, 2009, 07:52:17 PM »

"No skin off my nose one way or the other, but I do like to try to help steer folks in the right direction when I can.

Jerry"

Jerry, You're right, no skin off your nose.....(understand, no skin off of mine either). I also.......many years ago, was employed in a dealership. In fact, one of our mechanics was also the "key" holder to the local drag strip in our area.

Many of us used to go up there right after work and unlock the gates and put on slicks and/or uncap header pipes and race for an hour or two. Upon occassion, something........like a transmission or rearend would break. No problem, the next day or so at work, that item would get "WARRANTEED" in some customers car!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, I'm not saying that's proper or suggesting that is what happens frequently........but based upon NOT only my service mgrs input, but from other dealerships...(HD), I'd have to tell ya......Harley race parts DO get covered by warranty (NOT THE DEALER) and upon occassion, I believe a bike with one or more (non-HD parts) will have a problem.....and HD will end up covering the repairs.

Deal with the reality of that.

grc · « **Reply #45 on:** June 03, 2009, 10:07:19 PM »

Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that Harley has paid fraudulent claims submitted by less than honest dealership personnel. I think I mentioned that early on in the thread, that the only way it would be covered was directly by the dealer or by submitting a fraudulent claim. If you are happy with that method, then like I said, it's no skin off my nose. However, I also think we need to make sure any readers of this thread don't get the wrong impression from your posts and run right out to buy up all that crossed flags stuff from the catalog thinking it won't affect their warranty just because some guy on the web site claims his dealer said it would be covered. There are plenty of dealership personnel who won't file fraudulent claims, and there have been plenty of cases recently where H-D wouldn't approve warranty repairs until after their rep inspected the bike. So going the bogus claim route is not a sure thing, even if the dishonesty doesn't bother you.

As for dealing with reality, it hasn't changed. The official new vehicle warranty from H-D does NOT cover non street legal modifications. Having to rely on finding a crooked dealership to submit a claim and hope it slides past the MoCo is not the same thing as a valid warranty.

Jerry

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #46 on:** June 05, 2009, 12:46:33 PM »

Very well put!
My 07 had the motor out and fixed before I even test rode the bike. I am the warranty agent for my motor if anything occurs but it started as a 96" and is now a reliable 120/120 107"
I just choose to ignore the dealer network for the motor. I have had my bike tied up "in the que" for work one too many times and been BSd too much during riding season.

moscooter · « **Reply #47 on:** June 05, 2009, 04:53:09 PM »

Here's hoping problems do not arise that puts this whole discussion to the acid test. The Screamin' Eagle booklet that I've been reviewing and contains the various kits and elements I have purchased....says some of those parts (may) alter your warranty.

I do not consider my dealership (fraudulent) nor underhanded, etc. I got a two year warranty and extended it with a third year via the extended warranty offering. At no time, was I advised that my "race kit" nor any other parts would void my warranty.

We are about to install T-Man 625 cams in mine to resolve the low-end torque (lack of) that I now have with the SE cams that came in the kit. I have been advised there (could be ) warranty issues if I were to have an engine problem somewhere out of state........I'll deal with that if it happens.

Stay tuned for my new dyno numbers which I will post when the new install is over.........hopefully better numbers in the 2500-3000 rpm range.

Scoot.

maddog110 · « **Reply #48 on:** June 06, 2009, 10:23:17 AM »

Most good tuners will tell you the stock 255 cam IS one of the best torque cams out there, on a basically stock bike. they are hard to beat at 2500-3000, if your just looking for low end grunt.

jfh · « **Reply #49 on:** June 06, 2009, 05:43:19 PM »

Quote from: maddog110 on June 06, 2009, 10:23:17 AM

Most good tuners will tell you the stock 255 cam IS one of the best torque cams out there, on a basically stock bike. they are hard to beat at 2500-3000, if your just looking for low end grunt.

Moscooter is referring to the lack of low end torque from the SE260 cam that came with his 110 Race kit. There's no question that the SE255 delivers plenty of low end grunt. The problem is that the narrow cam timing that generates all that torque is also responsible for elevated operating temperatures, which cannot be sufficiently mitigated through tuning changes.

moscooter · « **Reply #50 on:** June 24, 2009, 04:34:34 PM »

OK, finally they got done with my latest tune on the dyno and after installation of T-Man 625 cams. Now I have a lot more torque on the low-end and that makes me much happier.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #51 on:** June 24, 2009, 09:03:02 PM »

I realize you have been through a lot of expense and aggravation. For other guys considering upgrades. You can get there, still retain a fat low end torque curve and decent power by just having the heads mildly reworked (which fixes bad guides and oil consumption by the bad seals) and stock TB, good pipe and tune. The factory heads are a high flow (rpm) piece that are geared toward power where most don't ride. The SE255 is the other end of extreme. In this case it took a short high lift cam to shunt the heads and the low end torque is a little late to come on still. BTW that is a great cam when matched to the parts.
With a good tune it will not ping on you assuming it is at 10.5/1

Author Topic: Dyno run results with the "110 Race Kit" (Read 11578 times)