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[Black Diamond]

Since it was a snowy, miserable day, Just us 6 and I went to the dealership to trailer my 08 SERK home. I started having oil come thru the A/C at the end of the riding season. The dealership checked for sumping but all was ok. So they removed the breather caps, seperators and butterfly from the breather ssystem. There was a lot of oil lying on top of the butterflies so they were replaced.

This helped a great deal but I was still getting some oil thru the A/C. The next step was to check the oil pump. I decided to install a new version of the TR590s which are supposed to be quieter than the originals. T-Man shot me a great deal on the new cams.

Upon opening her up, the tensioners revealed they had significant wear.

[Black Diamond]

2

[Black Diamond]

3

[Twolanerider]

Not pretty at all Jeff.  A little mist turned out to be a good thing since it led the shop down inside the cam chest.  Good score getting it all buttoned up during the bad weather.  Have fun with it in the spring and good luck with killing the mist.

[Black Diamond]

These tensioners showed no wear at 15000 miles when I switched to the T-Man cam. However, they have significant wear 20000 miles later

Scott posted recently on this same issue http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=55973.msg804825#msg804825 as has Chip and Brad. This is not what I had hoped for with this new hydraulic system.

I'm no wrench so I will read what those in the know have to offer.  

I did replace the tensioners as well as the cams. I'm trying the Wood Directional Roller Lifters also. BTW, the original TR-590 look great, no wear.

The dealership did flush everything out as well as inspected the oil pump.

JW

[Black Diamond]

Not pretty at all Jeff.  A little mist turned out to be a good thing since it led the shop down inside the cam chest.  Good score getting it all buttoned up during the bad weather.  Have fun with it in the spring and good luck with killing the mist.

Thanks Don. It just makes me wary of doing a conversion cam on the SERK. Maybe gears will be the way to go with her. Mackie recommend staying with the chains and using the billet cam plate. 

JW

[Twolanerider]

Thanks Don. It just makes me wary of doing a conversion cam on the SERK. Maybe gears will be the way to go with her. Mackie recommend staying with the chains and using the billet cam plate.  

JW

Everyone makes their own choices of course.  But it's not a choice at all for me Jeff.  

The old tensioner system is a sacrificial wear point waiting for a place to strand you.  The newer system is better.  But we're not sure yet if it's better like Giselle is better than Bridget or if its better like Joy Behar is better than Rosie.

One thing I'm convinced of, however, is that the new system isn't as bullet proof as gears.  Since gears also have no sacrificial wear points that makes the decision simple.  Assuming the crank allows I'll do gears; every time.

[Black Diamond]

Everyone makes their own choices of course.  But it's not a choice at all for me Jeff.  

The old tensioner system is a sacrificial wear point waiting for a place to strand you.  The newer system is better.  But we're not sure yet if it's better like Giselle is better than Bridget or if its better like Joy Behar is better than Rosie.

One thing I'm convinced of, however, is that the new system isn't as bullet proof as gears.  Since gears also have no sacrificial wear points that makes the decision simple.  Assuming the crank allows I'll do gears; every time.

All very valid points! My shop is closing so I'm looking into a couple of new builders. I'll see what they think and weight it out. I'll decide soon. Might be the winter build this year. The SESG2 is staying stock for now.

JW

[hd-dude]

What oil pump are you using?  We have seen more wear on the new tensioners with the fueling pump. I Think the higher pressure may not be a good thing in this case.

[Black Diamond]

What oil pump are you using?  We have seen more wear on the new tensioners with the fueling pump. I Think the higher pressure may not be a good thing in this case.

Hi Jim

I'm using the OEM oil pump. I do have the SE Billet Cam Support Plate installed.

Any chance this problem (tensioners) is related to my oil / AC issue?

JW

[FR8TRN]

There has also been some issue with the tensioners being put together wrong.  I believe the correct order of things is in the manual, might want to check them against that if you still have them out.

[Black Diamond]

There has also been some issue with the tensioners being put together wrong.  I believe the correct order of things is in the manual, might want to check them against that if you still have them out.

I had not heard that. Thanks.

JW

[grc]

Looking at your pictures, I'm not seeing the spring that should be between the piston and the shoe.  Perhaps you indeed have one of those that was assembled incorrectly?  See attachment for proper assembly, remove the shoe and see if the spring is under the piston instead of on top.


Jerry

[SBB]

Jeff

Thanks for posting the pictures!
I'm amazed at the difference in wear between the primary and the secondary tensioners.
I wonder why that is.
Also you mentioned the new 590 cams from TR.
What is the difference from the old to the new?
I have had the old 590's in 2 bikes and they make the horsepower and torque but are very noisy.
On my 09 SEUC I changed my tensioners at 20K miles and now at almost 48 I guess I need to check them again.

                               

SBB
 

[Fullsac Performance]

Hi Jim

I'm using the OEM oil pump. I do have the SE Billet Cam Support Plate installed.

Any chance this problem (tensioners) is related to my oil / AC issue?

JW

Stock pump. What about the bypass spring? Bottom line, what kind of oil pressure are you used to seeing.
Because the tentioners are oil presure activated, its easy to speculate that increased oil pressure would result in increased
tensioner presure. And then increased wear? Again, just speculating, don't have any confirmed data confirming this.

Steve George
Fullsac Performance

[Black Diamond]

Looking at your pictures, I'm not seeing the spring that should be between the piston and the shoe.  Perhaps you indeed have one of those that was assembled incorrectly?  See attachment for proper assembly, remove the shoe and see if the spring is under the piston instead of on top.


Jerry

All the parts are there. I just put them together like that for the pics. All parts were replace with new @ no charge.

JW

[Black Diamond]

Jeff

Thanks for posting the pictures!
I'm amazed at the difference in wear between the primary and the secondary tensioners.
I wonder why that is.
Also you mentioned the new 590 cams from TR.
What is the difference from the old to the new?
I have had the old 590's in 2 bikes and they make the horsepower and torque but are very noisy.
On my 09 SEUC I changed my tensioners at 20K miles and now at almost 48 I guess I need to check them again.

                               

SBB
 

TR said the new 590s are on the same "profile" as his 525/555/625 cams. Those cams are significantly quieter than the original 590's. I can not give a good comparision as she need the pushrods adjusted better than how she is now. I had to get her out of there NOW.

JW

[Black Diamond]

Stock pump. What about the bypass spring? Bottom line, what kind of oil pressure are you used to seeing.
Because the tentioners are oil presure activated, its easy to speculate that increased oil pressure would result in increased
tensioner presure. And then increased wear? Again, just speculating, don't have any confirmed data confirming this.

Steve George
Fullsac Performance

Stock oil pump, no bypass spring. Oil pressure was measured by the shop, normal range. I happened upon a picture that shows one of the tensioners when the 1st T-Man cam switch was done at approx 15500 miles. That one looks good in this pic. 20000 miles later, not so much. 

[FR8TRN]

All the parts are there. I just put them together like that for the pics. All parts were replace with new @ no charge.

JW

So the spring was sticking out of the shoe when you first got to it??

[Black Diamond]

So the spring was sticking out of the shoe when you first got to it??

Nope. They were assembled just like the picture in grc. The metal in the shoe seen in the photo is the cup molded into the shoe material. This cup is what the spring & piston are assembled and function in.

JW

[Black Diamond]

Here's a pic a bottom of shoe and the molded in metal cup.

JW

[Black Diamond]

Close up of the top

JW

[110tHunDer]

All very valid points! My shop is closing so I'm looking into a couple of new builders. I'll see what they think and weight it out. I'll decide soon. Might be the winter build this year. The SESG2 is staying stock for now.

JW

What?!?!?

[FR8TRN]

Nope. They were assembled just like the picture in grc. The metal in the shoe seen in the photo is the cup molded into the shoe material. This cup is what the spring & piston are assembled and function in.

JW

Ahh, I see, thanks.

[1sharprdkg]

Looks like that could have went really bad at any second. Very good timing.

[Black Diamond]

Looks like that could have went really bad at any second. Very good timing.

That does seem to be the silver lining if there is one. I'm more concerned on:

what caused this failure
                    and
how make sure this doesn't happen again
                     or
does this require an annual inspection   

JW

[sadunbar]

That does seem to be the silver lining if there is one. I'm more concerned on:

what caused this failure
                    and
how make sure this doesn't happen again
                     or
does this require an annual inspection   

JW

That's the safe route...  Inspect tensioners, lifters, oil pump and crank runout...  It's an afternoon and a couple gaskets...   

[Black Diamond]

That's the safe route...  Inspect tensioners, lifters, oil pump and crank runout...  It's an afternoon and a couple gaskets...   

You right Scott.

I'm wondering if I have some of the shoe material blocking a passage in the motor which is causing the oil bypass thru the AC?

JW

[1sharprdkg]

That does seem to be the silver lining if there is one. I'm more concerned on:

what caused this failure
                    and
how make sure this doesn't happen again
                     or
does this require an annual inspection   

JW

I would love to have the answers to those questions myself. From my limited knowledge of the problem the annual inspection makes sense but still would not be 100% fool proof. For whatever reason today they can be fine then in sometimes small x=amount of miles have total failure. 

[Unbalanced]

That does seem to be the silver lining if there is one. I'm more concerned on:

what caused this failure
                    and
how make sure this doesn't happen again
                     or
does this require an annual inspection   

JW

Weld,true,pin and balance the crank and go with Gear Drives solves that worry 

[Black Diamond]

Weld,true,pin and balance the crank and go with Gear Drives solves that worry  

I hear ya Harry.  This scooter's crank has already had the Darkhorse treatment. If I hadn't already invested in new chain cams, I would have considered that option. I am leaning gears for the 02 if the cranks within tolerances.

JW

[SBB]

I am leaning gears for the 02 if the cranks within tolerances.

JW

Jeff

On the 02 how many mile you plan on riding it a year?
With Lexi and the 11 I'm thinking there may not be many put on.

SBB

[Black Diamond]

Jeff

On the 02 how many mile you plan on riding it a year?
With Lexi and the 11 I'm thinking there may not be many put on.

SBB

Had the same thoughts Chip. She will probably get around 10,000 annually. I let my buddy John ride her on our annual trip. Give me access to two of my scooters. Still not sure on Vanessa (SESG2) I feel like I'm riding someone elses scoot. Maybe it the fairing. Only got 3000 on her before the deep freeze hit. TBD.

JW

[cvobiker]

Weld,true,pin and balance the crank and go with Gear Drives solves that worry 

In that order

[strokerjlk]

looks like the plunger and spring was installed in the housing improper.  the plunger didnt get seated to the bottom of the housing. the tensioner wasn't able to move in and out as it should. it was just fixed stuck out of the boss a 1/4 inch or so. the tensioner assembly was then pushed into place and bolted in. seen this before when reassembling them myself,always have to check and double check that they move freely.
If you are sure everything was installed proper ,and moving freely. look at sumping or heat related issues ,maybe tune. it has definitely built some heat up for whatever reason. JMO

Jeff send you back a PM  on the other forum. had to register over here to see the pic's. so thought I would post here as well.

[jagonza1]

well I have to say yu did better with thode tentioners than I did with the old set up I was replacing them every 20000.

later
John

[kraut]

I would love to have the answers to those questions myself. From my limited knowledge of the problem the annual inspection makes sense but still would not be 100% fool proof. For whatever reason today they can be fine then in sometimes small x=amount of miles have total failure. 

with the old style tensioners wear used to be progressive and I expect this to be true with the new ones too. So they just have to be inspected every 15 to 20.000 m and should be replaced if they show the slightest signs of wear. The part itself is cheap anyway, and the work is already done for inspecting them.