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[catahoula58]

Okay:  finally decided to do the stage 2 build on my 2009 SERG.  Currently running Fullsac's Stage 1 with catless head pipe and KN filter and 2.00 in baffles.  Have the Stage 2 Andrews 54 cam and Cometic Gasket Kit and map from Steve.  Was thinking of adding the Harley SE Cam plate with upgraded oil pump, SE Lifters and Adjustable pushrods.  Any suggestions or input on this build would be appreciated.  Waiting on SE parts to come in to Harley, so I can change if something is better or will perform better.

Thanks in advance

[HOGMIKE]

Okay:  finally decided to do the stage 2 build on my 2009 SERG.  Currently running Fullsac's Stage 1 with catless head pipe and KN filter and 2.00 in baffles.  Have the Stage 2 Andrews 54 cam and Cometic Gasket Kit and map from Steve.  Was thinking of adding the Harley SE Cam plate with upgraded oil pump, SE Lifters and Adjustable pushrods.  Any suggestions or input on this build would be appreciated.  Waiting on SE parts to come in to Harley, so I can change if something is better or will perform better.

Thanks in advance

IMHO, overkill on the oil pump kit and adjustable pushrods. If there are no issues with your stock lifters, and they show min. wear, you are good to go.
Your stock pr will work fine with that cam. (You gotta pull 'em anyway!)
On the other hand, if you are just looking to spend some $$$$ you can upgrade to gear drive cams and Fueling pump and plate kit.
Less friction on that setup than what you are looking at.
And, if you are pulling the heads, why not send them out for some street porting?
Me, I'm pretty satisified with the 54's, head gaskets, pipe and mufflers.
BUT, this is in my "long-haul" bike.
Again.......JMHO
 

[HD Street Performance]

Was thinking of adding the Harley SE Cam plate with upgraded oil pump, SE Lifters and Adjustable pushrods

Input
Well I guess if you have money to burn
It won't add any real value to the performance of longevity IMHO

[mjb765]

I am in the middle of the same upgrade on mine. I also asked several people about the oil pump upgrade and got the same answer--if there is nothing wrong with the one that's in there, then leave it in there--unless you just want to spend money.

[Lever]

well i guess i have money to burn    iam doing fueling cam plate and oil pump  on my build

[HD Street Performance]

Well at first thought there can't be much downside then I think a little more..
The Feuling pumps are not very tolerant of crank runout. They allow up to .0025" (ref their installation instructions)
We see many new bikes that exceed this number of all motor sizes, 103,110, 96 as the cranks are all the same.
They go on to talk in their technical notes about the need for more pressure and the piston oiler jets firing at 26-28psi.
HD service manual says "12-18psi". HD goes on to say desirable oil pressure at idle is 9-12psi to prevent the jets from leaking at idle when the scavenge side doesn't have the volume to pull the oil out due to the slow motor speed.
Feuling in their tech notes push their lifters and the rest of their parts giving the impression that they are a matched system and the balance of the oiling system will be blown unless we are to purchase all of the components. Wait a minute..
If the runout is in excess of .0025 (common up to .012 is within HD spec)) and the pump is going to shatter gears what's the point?
My goodness the CVO 110 has some real issues, proven time and time again, why go down the wrong path when the money can be better spent elsewhere and in this case the "fix" may actually create issues.
For my money any oil pump upgrades would be to a Thayer 3 stage pump as sold by T-man and others. These run stock pressure at idle but the top is controlled by the pressure relief valve, 1 stage pump, 2 scavenge stages 1 for the cam chest 1 for the crankcase. I have no bias as I do not sell the product.

[Lever]

well here is my humble 2cents  if you decide to up grade your oil pump  wether T-man or   fueling  budget yourself  for additional  crank work  cause you may need it  to run these parts   or another option is take them out of the build plan  save some money

[Cvostu]

I'm about to do mine here very shortly.  Just waiting on my x pipe to show.  I'm going with the Andrew 54 and most likely the head gaskets.   Not touching the lifters and the oil pump.   I was also told no reason to if they are working fine.  Bad economy out there ya know.   

[grc]

Considering the uptick in lifter roller failures over the past few years, I suggest that a very close inspection of each lifter might be worth the time.  But wholesale replacement at relatively low mileage shouldn't be necessary unless someone is a little more paranoid than normal.  Considering the reports of failures at very low mileage with SE and Jim's lifters, you could be removing perfectly good stock parts and replacing them with timebombs, who knows?

As for super duper high output oil pumps, pay attention to what Deweysheads (Don) mentioned.  Pinion shaft runout can and will destroy some of those pumps in short order, and the "benefits" of trying to force twice as much oil through the same passages are highly overrated anyway.  Where does anyone suppose all that extra oil goes that those super duper pumps supposedly put out?  I'll tell you where a lot of it goes, around in a circle thanks to the bypass system or dumped straight into the crankcase by the piston jets.  Pumping a lot more oil than your engine can use takes more power to run the pump, and it heats up, shears, and aerates the oil.  And if you manage to force a lot more oil up into the heads, the marginal drainback setup could be overwhelmed and create other problems.  Increasing the scavenge capacity of the pumps might be beneficial, but jacking up the output side not so much.

It's not my money so in the end it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other if folks want to waste hundreds or thousands of dollars on stuff they don't really need for a street engine.  As I've mentioned before, the Harley aftermarket depends on a lot of misconceptions to market big buck "racing" parts to folks who basically cruise down to the local watering hole on the weekend, or maybe even do some long distance touring, but do not "race".  If it floats your boat, go for it.  Just don't expect to really see all those supposed huge benefits hyped in the ad copy.  And don't be terribly surprised if some of those "racing" parts don't last as long as the cheap stock stuff.  Ask the Jim's customers about that one.


JMHO - Jerry

[HD Street Performance]

"Increasing the scavenge capacity of the pumps might be beneficial, but jacking up the output side not so much."

Exactly what Thayer 3 stage pumps do.

I agree 100% with what Jerry said and considering so much oil is now going over bypass the sidebar to aerating is added heat and lifter noise two of the things we are trying to improve on.

[Lever]

*Due to the high precision tolerances this pump is manufactured to, no more than .0035" pinion runout should be allowed. Greater runout than .0035" may cause damage to the pump, which is not covered under warranty. It is strongly recommended that the engine's crank assembly be trued and welded to prevent excessive pinion runout.


this is off the thayer web site

[HD Street Performance]

OK so that is not the fix all end all either and more the reason to stay with the stock pump with a stock bottom end. I have not used that pump except on well prepared higher end motors. Still would be my go to choice in that case. Fixing the crank would be dollars better spent IMHO from the get go, then not worry or have metal shrapnel roaming in the motor

[Lever]

OK so that is not the fix all end all either and more the reason to stay with the stock pump with a stock bottom end. I have not used that pump except on well prepared higher end motors. Still would be my go to choice in that case. Fixing the crank would be dollars better spent IMHO from the get go, then not worry or have metal shrapnel roaming in the motor

I  agree  

[catahoula58]

Okay after all the inputs from the CVO members and having slept on it.  I decided to only install the Andrews 54 cam and used stock pushrods and lifters.  It goes to the dyno man tomorrow at D&D Performance in Ft. Worth.  Will post dyno numbers and sheet when I get it back on Friday.  I appreciate all the inputs and discussions on this issue and Guidance.  This site has been a real helpful way of buildling correctly and spend the least amount of money.

Thanks again to all who replied!

PS:  current build is:  Fullsacs 2.00 cores, 2009 96" catless head pipe Jet Hot ceramic coated inside and out, K-N Filter for SE Ventilator, Stage 1 Map from Steve at Fullsac Performance.  Added Andrews 54 Cam, .030 Cometic Gasket, Stock Pushrods and Stock Lifters.  Stage II maps from Steve at Fullsac Performance. 

[catahoula58]

  Just got the report from the Dyno center.  Final pull was 102.4 HP with 112.5 TQ.  Aren of D&D Performance in Ft. Worth did the dyno.  sorry for not having a before run.  previous was Fullsac 2.00 cores, K&N ventilator filter, catless 96 head pipe.  Final configuration; 96 catles headpipe ceramic coated, Fullsac 2.00 cores, Andrews 54 cam, .030 cometic head gasket, stock lifters, stock pushrods.  I just got back from the shop and she rides really nice and has a seat of the pants response that I really can say I will enjoy!