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Author Topic: selecting cams  (Read 15782 times)

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sbcharlie

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selecting cams
« on: July 07, 2004, 08:14:01 AM »

i guess the hardest desicion is gear drive or chain and how deep is your wallet.if you can aford it go gear drive.between andrews and S&S you have quite a selections of cams.if you decide to stay with chain drive polish the cam chains. this is easy to do on a grinder. get a metal deburring whee and polish the chains to look like bracelets.in most cases you will need to install new shoes any way. to choose a cam you need to consider do you want torque or rpm. another factor is compression or lack of it in 103 engines.
another factor is the squish band, that is the space above the piston at tdc,top dead center. i do not know if there are domed pistons available for 103 engines. decking a stock head will not do much. if you install se heads or aftermarket heads you dimminsh
the value of your bike. just my thoughts on cam choices
thanks short-block charlie
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Cabo

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2004, 09:06:14 AM »

Is there anywhere you can find the spec on screaming eagle cams (i.e. lift and duation)?
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sbcharlie

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2004, 10:35:34 AM »

look in your sceaming eagle catalog they list most recent grinds. there is a new catlog out it came out in the spring. a cam of choice is a se251 with 9.8/1 compression
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geezerglide

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2004, 08:53:44 PM »

Charlie,

Welcome aboard, your expertise and knowledge will be of great help.

geezerglide (Leo)
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Cabo

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2004, 01:16:42 AM »

Can someone explain the effects of lift and duration as it appliys to horsepower and tork.  I just went with my dealers suggestion of the SE 257 cam.  It runs great above 3000rpm but seems to lack below that.  

Any help in understanding the differences in cams would be helpful. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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the O`Fender

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2004, 02:17:30 PM »

Cabo
I have been asking the same question for almost a year (Cam Specs for SE253) and have yet to find anyone to answer satisfactorily!! From this site I was told .530 lift and thats it, no duration no LSA nothing else. If you do find those numbers please post them here. [smiley=confused5.gif]
« Last Edit: July 08, 2004, 02:18:07 PM by the_ofender »
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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2004, 10:42:44 PM »

Remember the old adage SPEED COST HOW FAST CAN YOU AFFORD TO GO.
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Cabo

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2004, 07:43:18 AM »

Quote
Remember the old adage SPEED COST HOW FAST CAN YOU AFFORD TO GO.


I understand that..but I like to  [smiley=confused5.gif]know what my money is doing.  I just dont understand the effrects of lift and duration as it relates to HP and tork. I would love to find somewhere I could find out more about it and not just trust my dealer.
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the O`Fender

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2004, 01:14:02 PM »

Cabo this might help some, look around this site you will find useful info [smiley=beerchug.gif]
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/selectcam.htm
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roadrunner

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2004, 04:42:56 PM »

my dealer recommends the S&S Geardrive 585G cam, and quick-install pushrods, with the stage 1, aircleaner and true duals.  any options?
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ratrbridin

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2004, 07:32:57 PM »

Roadrunner, just an opinion based on alot of miles and a supply of used headers/pipes hanging on my garage wall. If you want to maximize syphoning of exhaust gases, allows your heads to flow smoother creating more power, 2 into 1 is where it's at. I know we all like the look of duels on the big bikes but I highly recommend D&D out of El Paso TX. I have owned 4 of their headers on evo / TC88 / TC95 and just put a "Borzilla" on my new FLHTCSE2. Hey, I know what opinions are like, but just thought I would throw mine in...
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larouchedem

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2005, 11:43:25 PM »

the ofender,

Here's what I have;

Duration - 239/256
Lift .530"

Events- 6/53 - 59/17

That's 113.5 intake C/L and 111 exh C/L.

Also have been told by another source that exhaust duration is 255 on rear cam.
Dave



link=board=CVO_TC;num=1089202441;start=0#5 date=07/08/04 at 14:17:30]Cabo
I have been asking the same question for almost a year (Cam Specs for SE253) and have yet to find anyone to answer satisfactorily!! From this site I was told .530 lift and thats it, no duration no LSA nothing else. If you do find those numbers please post them here. [smiley=confused5.gif][/quote]
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larouchedem

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2005, 11:47:29 PM »

Hi Charlie,

Dave Brode from Preacher's group here.

<snip

>another factor is the squish band,

Is there a slanted quench surface in the heads, like in an HTCC head? Or, is the chamber round with a small flat quench area around the cylinder, sort of like when an 883 head is on top of a 1200 piston?
<snip

>i do not know if there are domed pistons available for 103 engines.

As far as I know, only for the HTCC heads. Weird looking dome. I saw a pair today.
Dave

« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 11:48:42 PM by larouchedem »
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bubbarosa

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2005, 02:48:02 PM »

you can see a pic of these "weird" looking pistons here

http://www.harley-davidson.com/pdf/SE_032_067.pdf

item 47 with a chart following on the applications of the many different heads and pistons.  None of which are listed for the stock heads.  The 103+ heads are item 42

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larouchedem

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2005, 05:50:37 PM »

ratrbridin,

Does the left side dummy pipe that they sell work with the FLH Boarzilla? I have their smaller primary 2 into 1 "fatcat" on my FLHT with the left side dummy.
Dave


link=board=CVO_TC;num=1089202441;start=0#10 date=12/15/04 at 19:32:57]Roadrunner, just an opinion based on alot of miles and a supply of used headers/pipes hanging on my garage wall. If you want to maximize syphoning of exhaust gases, allows your heads to flow smoother creating more power, 2 into 1 is where it's at. I know we all like the look of duels on the big bikes but I highly recommend D&D out of El Paso TX. I have owned 4 of their headers on evo / TC88 / TC95 and just put a "Borzilla" on my new FLHTCSE2. Hey, I know what opinions are like, but just thought I would throw mine in...[/quote]
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kng103

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2005, 03:44:12 PM »

i am having my bike picked up on friday.
i like the fact that the heads say se-103.
so with that, i am going to have my heads ported and flowed with new springs. the squish measured and corected, and the se-251 cam. at my stealers recomendation.
i will post the results as soon as i get them.
it's still pretty chitty here in new york.
right now i have 92/92
« Last Edit: January 11, 2005, 03:53:24 PM by kng103 »
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PCC

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2005, 05:28:08 PM »

KNG103

Make sure to ask them about valve seal clearance on those heads. Somewhere else on this site there is a post about minimum clearance at .080 and that the 251 cams would put that clearance at .026. Don't want to have the valave keepers contacting the tops of the seals. if those go you'll have oil all over the place.
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DavidB

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2005, 09:31:38 PM »

CVO 253 Cam Specs [smiley=gossip.gif] [smiley=gossip.gif]

Lift  @ Valve   Intake .536 /  Exaust .537

Duration@.053   Intake 239  / Exaust 256

Timing   Intake  open 7 deg BTDC/close 52 deg ABDC
            Exaust  open 59 deg BBDC/ close 17 deg ATDC

TDC Lift @ Valve / Intake 0.117   Exaust 0.157

I cant find the LSA            [smiley=gossip.gif]          
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larouchedem

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2005, 11:24:35 PM »

DavidB,

Using your numbers, the LSA is 111.75, with 3/4 of a degree of retard ground in [112.5/111 lobe centers].
Dave


link=board=CVO_TC;num=1089202441;start=15#17 date=01/11/05 at 21:31:38]CVO 253 Cam Specs [smiley=gossip.gif] [smiley=gossip.gif]

Lift
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DavidB

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2005, 01:54:16 AM »

Hey Dave,
   I give up ,
          How`d you do that ?
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larouchedem

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2005, 06:07:37 AM »

Hi DavidB,

To get intake C/L, divide duration by two, and subtract opening [239/2-7 = 112.5]
To get exhaust C/L, divide duration by two, and subtract closing [256/2-17 = 111].

Add the two and divide by two to get LSA [ 112.5+111=223.5/2=117.75]

If intake C/L number is smaller than exhaust C/L number, the cam is ground with advance. If opposite, vice-versa.
Dave


link=board=CVO_TC;num=1089202441;start=15#19 date=01/12/05 at 00:54:16]Hey Dave,
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kng103

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2005, 07:59:19 AM »

PCC,
where is that posted?
shouldn't they check all of the clearance before putting everything back together?
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mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2005, 10:01:54 AM »

Quote
PCC,
where is that posted?
shouldn't they check all of the clearance before putting everything back together?

king 103 how ya doin,
have your wrench clay the motor and give you the exact results then you will be able to see along with your wrench exactly what is going to be involved with the finishing steps gasket thickness etc.
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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2005, 10:52:48 AM »

kng 103, just to add to MFG's post.......a motor should ALWAYS be clayed on a rebuild.  If your wrench is telling you that it's not necessary, he's gambling with your baby.  JMHO
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kng103

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2005, 11:04:17 AM »

thanks guy's,
but that is what squish refers to.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 11:19:51 AM by kng103 »
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mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2005, 11:17:54 AM »

Quote
thanks guy's,
but that is what suish refers to.

just lookin' out for ya ....some of the wrenches try to give you that info based on mathematical calculation(cyphering) and it is not as reliable as they try to make ya think....in their defense...it does bring more jobs into the shop
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 11:21:55 AM by mfgreen »
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larouchedem

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2005, 05:04:50 PM »

All,
I've never seen one apart, but unless I'm confused, little to no quench action occuring in these engines. Afaik, since the chamber is full round, and the piston flat, there can't be. That's assuming [on my part] that the diameter of the bottom cut on the cylinder matches the bore diameter. I suppose that if the outside diameter of the bottom cut in the chamber is smaller than the bore, there may be a little quench action. Damned little though, imo.

Further, this is why I blabbered on about the possibility of using the slanted quench surface domed HTCC stroker pistons in these engines. Both to add compression, and allow for quench action. What SBCharlie is doing would also do both [welding chambers ifor a bathtub of other shape and creating a flat quench design].
Dave  
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hd2003-se2005

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2005, 07:46:16 AM »

Still waiting on results from  "kng103"
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kng103

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2005, 01:33:50 PM »

bike is done.
still pretty cold here in ny.
i am going to take it out saturday.
they shaved 30 thousands of an inch off each of my cylinders.
set the squish at 38 thousands.
have to wait until i can have it dyno tuned.
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kng103

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2005, 09:57:17 AM »

took the bike out for a nice ride this weekend.
what a seat of the pants difference!
work was worth every penny.
cant wait to have it dyno'd to see the numbers.
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bassani true duals w/ho mufflers
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s&s reed valve
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rumble road speakers
2008 lincoln mark lt(silver)

mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2005, 09:24:19 AM »

Here is a guide that may help some in cam selection.  I have seen this in other places and formats and even compiled one like it.  Because of the format our site, it is probably best offered as a download to your computer from this site.  You will see it as an excel spread sheet.  If you do not have the capabilities or software on your computer to look at an excel spreadsheet.  You can find it on the net.
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/download/camhdtwincam.xls
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kng103

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2005, 09:47:09 AM »

Quote
Here is a guide that may help some in cam selection.
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s&s reed valve
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rumble road speakers
2008 lincoln mark lt(silver)

mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2005, 10:06:43 AM »

Quote
really doesn't say anything about the 103
Kng103,
In cam selection, the lift, duration, and other numbers offered are applicable to what you are calculating accross the board.  This guide is not to recommend a cam to you, it is a ready reference to all the cams listed.  In other publications you will get both short and longer explanations as to what these numbers mean and what happens to the motor when they are changed.  I offered it to the site as a reference and maybe a guide for you to talk to your wrench about or reference when you are considering selecting a cam.

Mike
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mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2005, 08:14:20 PM »

Correct cam selection is the single most difficult choice facing the performance enthusiast. And, unfortunately, we get it wrong about as often as we get it right. An incorrect cam choice can result in decreased real-world performance if the selected cam's operating range is not matched to riding style.

The operating range of any Harley engine is determined by a number of factors and the cam design is one of the most influential. If the cam design is not matched to the other components and is not matched to the desired engine power band (rpm range), then the engine's performance will be disappointing. No amount of carburetor tuning can compensate for having the wrong cam.

To get the "right" cam design, you need to do two things: First, decide upon the rpm range you want to improve. Secondly, use the list provided below and cam catalogues to select a cam design that begins to work at the lower rpm of the power range you have chosen. You'll probably be surprised to learn how few of the available cam designs fit your expectations. However, the list is accurate and if you follow its implied advice, you will get an engine that performs as you wish it to.

Cam timing: what matters

The most important cam timing event is the intake valve closing angle. The intake closing point determines the minimum rpm at which the engine begins to do its best work. The later the intake valves close, the higher the rpm must be before the engine gets "on the cam."

Long duration, late closing cam designs are necessary to drag the last bit of power out of an engine. Unfortunately, these same cams can perform poorly under more normal riding conditions. In the quest for maximum power output, many-too-many Harley owners choose a late closing, high-rpm cam for their engine. The problem with such choices is that the engine seldom spends time in the rpm range favored by such cams.

The majority of virtually any Harley motor's life is spent in the mid-portion of its rpm limits, between 2000 and 4000 rpm. At open-road cruising speeds, that range is more like 2500 to 3500 rpm. With current Big Twin gearing, top gear at 2500 rpm returns a road speed of 55 mph and 3500 delivers 84 mph. Riders sometimes "putt" around at 2000 or less. Even when accelerating to cruising speed, few of us use more than 4000 - 4500 rpm as a shift point. Very seldom, in day-to-day use, do our engines get near 5000 rpm, let alone 6000.

Even the mildest of Harley-Davidson's aftermarket cams (Evo or Twin Cam) do their best work above 3000 rpm. At 2000, the majority of these cams seldom perform significantly better than stock cam(s).

The rpm at which a Big Twin gets "happy" can be predicted by the closing point (angle) of the intake valves. The angle is expressed as the number of degrees After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC) that the valves reach .053" from being fully seated.

The following list predicts the rpm at which the engine gets "on the cam" based on the closing angle of the intake valves. These relationships are approximate but should hold true to within 200 rpm or so. They also assume that all other tuning factors, exhaust, ignition, etc., are operating correctly.


30 degrees = 2400 rpm
35 degrees = 3000 rpm
40 degrees = 3600 rpm
45 degrees = 4000 rpm
50+ degrees = 4500 rpm

If you have one of the late closing cam designs installed, say one that closes the intake valves later than 40 degrees, then you cannot expect excellent performance at 2000 rpm. No fuel injection/carburetor adjustment, ignition adjustment or exhaust system can change this.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2005, 08:14:50 PM by mfgreen »
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the O`Fender

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2005, 02:06:44 PM »

Mike this information is not always accurate!!! The cam in my SEEG the SE 253 has a late closing intake (53 degrees) with a semi long duration (239 degrees) and it is "on the cam" at 2500 rpm in fact according to your information I wouldn't be "on the cam" until I was above 4500 rpm and that is not an accurate assessment of these cams ask any SEEG rider.
Their are just too many varibles to explain cam theory in a simple paragraph or two.  [smiley=bigok.gif]
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 02:13:39 PM by the_ofender »
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mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2005, 02:23:38 PM »

Quote
Mike this information is not always accurate!!! The cam in my SEEG the SE 253 has a late closing intake (53 degrees) with a semi long duration (239 degrees) and it is "on the cam" at 2500 rpm in fact according to your information I wouldn't be "on the cam" until I was above 4500 rpm and that is not an accurate assessment of these cams ask any SEEG rider.
Their are just too many varibles to explain cam theory in a simple paragraph or two.  [smiley=bigok.gif]
Hi O' Fender,
I tried to keep it concise so as the eyes would not glaze over.  The information is fairly accurate in a generalized way.  When you take a longer look at the numbers and combine that information with your or your engine builder's knowledge and relate them to the numbers provided with the Excel spreadsheet format (linked in the original post in this thread) and understand the relationship of your cam in your motor, you will understand that I am not misleading you here.  Thanks for the clarification.
Mike
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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2005, 04:18:30 PM »

Hey Guys,
 I don't claim to be an expert on camshafts, but I did communicate to an expert (Don Tilley) what I wanted to accomplish.  I'm a top-end NUT!  Even before we built this Big Motor, I used the SE-258 Cams and the 1550 High Output Cartridge.  I thought it performed very well until OTIS thumped me! [smiley=cry2.gif]  Tilley recommended we install new SE-260 Cams and implement the SE EFI Race Tuner in the "Big Motor", for the maximum high RPM performance.  As you can see by the Dyno Sheet, this motor produces maximum performance at 5200-5250 RPM.  Makes me happy! [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]  And, as has been said, that's all that matters!  Later--HUBBARD    
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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2005, 09:09:39 PM »

The information given by MFG is correct. Everyone has ther own opinion of what is the right choice for cams. If you want high end power you must sacrifice the low end and vice versa. I'm installing the Andrews TW21's in my SEEG. That might seem like a small cam, but I want to have good torque in the low rpm's where I can use it. Can't go big on the cam unless you have to compression to compensate for it. (stock heads) I'll post a dyno sheet when I get it done. Still winter here!!
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Twolanerider

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2005, 09:09:50 PM »

Quote
Hey Guys,
 
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DavidB

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2005, 01:18:18 PM »

Quote
The information given by MFG is correct. Everyone has ther own opinion of what is the right choice for cams. If you want high end power you must sacrifice the low end and vice versa. I'm installing the Andrews TW21's in my SEEG. That might seem like a small cam, but I want to have good torque in the low rpm's where I can use it. Can't go big on the cam unless you have to compression to compensate for it. (stock heads) I'll post a dyno sheet when I get it done. Still winter here!!



Kbiforce.
   Did you get the cam in ?
If so plz post the dyno numbers. Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks ,
Dave
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kbiforce

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2005, 07:44:04 PM »

Got the bike running but it's still winter here! May have to trailer it to the dyno if the weather doesn't break soon. A friend of mine has a '05 Ultra with the flat top 95" and the TW21's. He had 1 dyno run until the shut it down due to a broken head bolt. He said that the torque peaked early and had a nice flat line all the way across the rpm range. Never got a second run because he was talked into high compression pistons and a SE211 that  peaked in the low 80's. I'll have to get the graphs with the actual numbers. Stay tuned! Now if Old Man Winter would get the H**L out of here...............
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DavidB

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2005, 09:26:10 PM »

Quote
Got the bike running but it's still winter here! May have to trailer it to the dyno if the weather doesn't break soon. A friend of mine has a '05 Ultra with the flat top 95" and the TW21's. He had 1 dyno run until the shut it down due to a broken head bolt. He said that the torque peaked early and had a nice flat line all the way across the rpm range. Never got a second run because he was talked into high compression pistons and a SE211 that
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kbiforce

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2005, 04:33:38 PM »

I did install the 21's. It ran lean @ idle so much as that it would spit out the intake once in a while. I have a PC with the map for the 103 with the stock mufflers. I had it a couple of bars to the lean side so I just richened it up to where it was originally. That seemed to help quite a bit. Still seems a touch lean @ idle. When I did get a chance to put a few miles on it, it seemed to run just fine. I realize it's been many months since I last rode it, but I was really impressed with the pull from 50-80 mph. Like I said it could be just me. I did change the right baffle to the Mikuni PAT and just loaded the new map for the 2005 CVO. Don't know when I'll get a chance to test it yet though. I did try to check the cranking pressure but my gauge dosen't fit the small spark plug holes in the head. Will have to get an adapter. I mentioned in a post quite a while ago that when we did my Brother in law's Softail last fall (21's, 95" flattops) he kept right up to me and was going to overtake me @110mph, so I can't see that the 21's fall off the power band too soon. I'm getting extreme cabin fever waiting to try out the bike!!!!
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kbiforce

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2005, 09:09:16 PM »

I finally got a gauge to check the ccp of the engine. It's at 190 psi. Took it out the other day and seems to run very smooth at low rpms compared to the stock cam. Idles much better with the new map installed. Am sending the dyno chart on a 2005 Ultra 95" comparing 21's to SE 211's. The first run is the 21's untuned and running with a leaking rear head gasket due to a broken head bolt. The final run is the 211's with high compression pistons all dialed in. I like the flat line of the 21's! See what you think!
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kbiforce

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2005, 09:14:41 PM »

Hopefully this is it!
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mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams - installing
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2005, 08:29:22 PM »

pictorial on cam install

http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/camguidepage1.htm [smiley=worthless.gif]
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mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2005, 01:47:05 PM »

I just got this email from Woods.

Dear Mike:
Best cam for a 103 motor with stock compression and all around street use is a 50G.
Andrews Products
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