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Author Topic: selecting cams  (Read 15775 times)

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mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2005, 09:24:19 AM »

Here is a guide that may help some in cam selection.  I have seen this in other places and formats and even compiled one like it.  Because of the format our site, it is probably best offered as a download to your computer from this site.  You will see it as an excel spread sheet.  If you do not have the capabilities or software on your computer to look at an excel spreadsheet.  You can find it on the net.
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/download/camhdtwincam.xls
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kng103

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2005, 09:47:09 AM »

Quote
Here is a guide that may help some in cam selection.
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mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2005, 10:06:43 AM »

Quote
really doesn't say anything about the 103
Kng103,
In cam selection, the lift, duration, and other numbers offered are applicable to what you are calculating accross the board.  This guide is not to recommend a cam to you, it is a ready reference to all the cams listed.  In other publications you will get both short and longer explanations as to what these numbers mean and what happens to the motor when they are changed.  I offered it to the site as a reference and maybe a guide for you to talk to your wrench about or reference when you are considering selecting a cam.

Mike
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mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2005, 08:14:20 PM »

Correct cam selection is the single most difficult choice facing the performance enthusiast. And, unfortunately, we get it wrong about as often as we get it right. An incorrect cam choice can result in decreased real-world performance if the selected cam's operating range is not matched to riding style.

The operating range of any Harley engine is determined by a number of factors and the cam design is one of the most influential. If the cam design is not matched to the other components and is not matched to the desired engine power band (rpm range), then the engine's performance will be disappointing. No amount of carburetor tuning can compensate for having the wrong cam.

To get the "right" cam design, you need to do two things: First, decide upon the rpm range you want to improve. Secondly, use the list provided below and cam catalogues to select a cam design that begins to work at the lower rpm of the power range you have chosen. You'll probably be surprised to learn how few of the available cam designs fit your expectations. However, the list is accurate and if you follow its implied advice, you will get an engine that performs as you wish it to.

Cam timing: what matters

The most important cam timing event is the intake valve closing angle. The intake closing point determines the minimum rpm at which the engine begins to do its best work. The later the intake valves close, the higher the rpm must be before the engine gets "on the cam."

Long duration, late closing cam designs are necessary to drag the last bit of power out of an engine. Unfortunately, these same cams can perform poorly under more normal riding conditions. In the quest for maximum power output, many-too-many Harley owners choose a late closing, high-rpm cam for their engine. The problem with such choices is that the engine seldom spends time in the rpm range favored by such cams.

The majority of virtually any Harley motor's life is spent in the mid-portion of its rpm limits, between 2000 and 4000 rpm. At open-road cruising speeds, that range is more like 2500 to 3500 rpm. With current Big Twin gearing, top gear at 2500 rpm returns a road speed of 55 mph and 3500 delivers 84 mph. Riders sometimes "putt" around at 2000 or less. Even when accelerating to cruising speed, few of us use more than 4000 - 4500 rpm as a shift point. Very seldom, in day-to-day use, do our engines get near 5000 rpm, let alone 6000.

Even the mildest of Harley-Davidson's aftermarket cams (Evo or Twin Cam) do their best work above 3000 rpm. At 2000, the majority of these cams seldom perform significantly better than stock cam(s).

The rpm at which a Big Twin gets "happy" can be predicted by the closing point (angle) of the intake valves. The angle is expressed as the number of degrees After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC) that the valves reach .053" from being fully seated.

The following list predicts the rpm at which the engine gets "on the cam" based on the closing angle of the intake valves. These relationships are approximate but should hold true to within 200 rpm or so. They also assume that all other tuning factors, exhaust, ignition, etc., are operating correctly.


30 degrees = 2400 rpm
35 degrees = 3000 rpm
40 degrees = 3600 rpm
45 degrees = 4000 rpm
50+ degrees = 4500 rpm

If you have one of the late closing cam designs installed, say one that closes the intake valves later than 40 degrees, then you cannot expect excellent performance at 2000 rpm. No fuel injection/carburetor adjustment, ignition adjustment or exhaust system can change this.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2005, 08:14:50 PM by mfgreen »
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the O`Fender

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2005, 02:06:44 PM »

Mike this information is not always accurate!!! The cam in my SEEG the SE 253 has a late closing intake (53 degrees) with a semi long duration (239 degrees) and it is "on the cam" at 2500 rpm in fact according to your information I wouldn't be "on the cam" until I was above 4500 rpm and that is not an accurate assessment of these cams ask any SEEG rider.
Their are just too many varibles to explain cam theory in a simple paragraph or two.  [smiley=bigok.gif]
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 02:13:39 PM by the_ofender »
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mfgreen

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2005, 02:23:38 PM »

Quote
Mike this information is not always accurate!!! The cam in my SEEG the SE 253 has a late closing intake (53 degrees) with a semi long duration (239 degrees) and it is "on the cam" at 2500 rpm in fact according to your information I wouldn't be "on the cam" until I was above 4500 rpm and that is not an accurate assessment of these cams ask any SEEG rider.
Their are just too many varibles to explain cam theory in a simple paragraph or two.  [smiley=bigok.gif]
Hi O' Fender,
I tried to keep it concise so as the eyes would not glaze over.  The information is fairly accurate in a generalized way.  When you take a longer look at the numbers and combine that information with your or your engine builder's knowledge and relate them to the numbers provided with the Excel spreadsheet format (linked in the original post in this thread) and understand the relationship of your cam in your motor, you will understand that I am not misleading you here.  Thanks for the clarification.
Mike
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HUBBARD

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2005, 04:18:30 PM »

Hey Guys,
 I don't claim to be an expert on camshafts, but I did communicate to an expert (Don Tilley) what I wanted to accomplish.  I'm a top-end NUT!  Even before we built this Big Motor, I used the SE-258 Cams and the 1550 High Output Cartridge.  I thought it performed very well until OTIS thumped me! [smiley=cry2.gif]  Tilley recommended we install new SE-260 Cams and implement the SE EFI Race Tuner in the "Big Motor", for the maximum high RPM performance.  As you can see by the Dyno Sheet, this motor produces maximum performance at 5200-5250 RPM.  Makes me happy! [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]  And, as has been said, that's all that matters!  Later--HUBBARD    
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kbiforce

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2005, 09:09:39 PM »

The information given by MFG is correct. Everyone has ther own opinion of what is the right choice for cams. If you want high end power you must sacrifice the low end and vice versa. I'm installing the Andrews TW21's in my SEEG. That might seem like a small cam, but I want to have good torque in the low rpm's where I can use it. Can't go big on the cam unless you have to compression to compensate for it. (stock heads) I'll post a dyno sheet when I get it done. Still winter here!!
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Twolanerider

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2005, 09:09:50 PM »

Quote
Hey Guys,
 
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DavidB

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2005, 01:18:18 PM »

Quote
The information given by MFG is correct. Everyone has ther own opinion of what is the right choice for cams. If you want high end power you must sacrifice the low end and vice versa. I'm installing the Andrews TW21's in my SEEG. That might seem like a small cam, but I want to have good torque in the low rpm's where I can use it. Can't go big on the cam unless you have to compression to compensate for it. (stock heads) I'll post a dyno sheet when I get it done. Still winter here!!



Kbiforce.
   Did you get the cam in ?
If so plz post the dyno numbers. Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks ,
Dave
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kbiforce

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2005, 07:44:04 PM »

Got the bike running but it's still winter here! May have to trailer it to the dyno if the weather doesn't break soon. A friend of mine has a '05 Ultra with the flat top 95" and the TW21's. He had 1 dyno run until the shut it down due to a broken head bolt. He said that the torque peaked early and had a nice flat line all the way across the rpm range. Never got a second run because he was talked into high compression pistons and a SE211 that  peaked in the low 80's. I'll have to get the graphs with the actual numbers. Stay tuned! Now if Old Man Winter would get the H**L out of here...............
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DavidB

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2005, 09:26:10 PM »

Quote
Got the bike running but it's still winter here! May have to trailer it to the dyno if the weather doesn't break soon. A friend of mine has a '05 Ultra with the flat top 95" and the TW21's. He had 1 dyno run until the shut it down due to a broken head bolt. He said that the torque peaked early and had a nice flat line all the way across the rpm range. Never got a second run because he was talked into high compression pistons and a SE211 that
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kbiforce

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2005, 04:33:38 PM »

I did install the 21's. It ran lean @ idle so much as that it would spit out the intake once in a while. I have a PC with the map for the 103 with the stock mufflers. I had it a couple of bars to the lean side so I just richened it up to where it was originally. That seemed to help quite a bit. Still seems a touch lean @ idle. When I did get a chance to put a few miles on it, it seemed to run just fine. I realize it's been many months since I last rode it, but I was really impressed with the pull from 50-80 mph. Like I said it could be just me. I did change the right baffle to the Mikuni PAT and just loaded the new map for the 2005 CVO. Don't know when I'll get a chance to test it yet though. I did try to check the cranking pressure but my gauge dosen't fit the small spark plug holes in the head. Will have to get an adapter. I mentioned in a post quite a while ago that when we did my Brother in law's Softail last fall (21's, 95" flattops) he kept right up to me and was going to overtake me @110mph, so I can't see that the 21's fall off the power band too soon. I'm getting extreme cabin fever waiting to try out the bike!!!!
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kbiforce

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2005, 09:09:16 PM »

I finally got a gauge to check the ccp of the engine. It's at 190 psi. Took it out the other day and seems to run very smooth at low rpms compared to the stock cam. Idles much better with the new map installed. Am sending the dyno chart on a 2005 Ultra 95" comparing 21's to SE 211's. The first run is the 21's untuned and running with a leaking rear head gasket due to a broken head bolt. The final run is the 211's with high compression pistons all dialed in. I like the flat line of the 21's! See what you think!
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kbiforce

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Re: selecting cams
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2005, 09:14:41 PM »

Hopefully this is it!
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