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Author Topic: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?  (Read 24747 times)

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2006ULTRA

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Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« on: February 03, 2012, 10:47:31 AM »

I have a dead spot right off idle if I blip the throttle.  This is my first TBW Harley so I'm not sure if it's a characteristic of this system or if it's something that can be tuned out?

I bought my bike used with the mods it currently has.  Look at my SIG.

The bike has a SERT so I'm pretty sure there's nothing I can do to tune it.  I know I will have to take it to a dealer and they'll want to charge a sh&t load of money to mess with it plus dyno time.  Not gona happen.

Is my condition normal?

If not what if any options do I have?

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 11:11:51 AM »

I have the same thing on a box stock 2011 FLTRUSE.  Hate it!

But, I don't understand your comment related to your SERT.  I may not know about a newer one but you can do just about anything with it, including timing.  There even used to be a "fake" dyno feature that I found useful.  And, kinda fun to dink with.  You should be able to tune your TBW.   :nixweiss:

Good Luck.
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 11:49:40 AM »

I have the newer pro tuner, my understanding is that "only" a Harley dealer can tune with it?  Am I wrong?
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glens

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 12:27:21 PM »

For the SEPST, unless you also purchased the software (and cables) you're going to have to take it to someone who does have it.

The TTS software/calibrations have a throttle control table in which you can alter the progressivity of the throttle plate action compared to that of the twistgrip.  It works in all gears.

The Dynojet PowerVision has two such tables which are separated based upon selection in the software of which gear the bike's in.  That is, you can have only the one table (whichever one) work throughout all gears or you can have it transition from one to the other at some chosen gear.

I've heard the HD SEPST only has the one table but that it doesn't "work" in 1st or 6th gears.  I'd hope I was wrong about that understanding as it seems a little stupid to do that way.

The old SERT (has since become the TTS) was discontinued prior to electronic throttle control as I recall, so I doubt there are any such calibrations available for it.

I don't have "sigs" enabled so I don't know what it is you actually have...
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 01:12:51 PM »

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 02:39:26 PM »

Accel enleanment will cure that. Have seen this a lot when the airflow requirement is changed from stock.
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 02:55:37 PM »


NO, it is not normal to have hesitation with a properly tuned engine.  Do you have a true hesitation, or are you possibly experiencing the slight lag that Harley has programmed into the low speed response curve of the ETC?  Two different things.  If a true hesitation, it can be tuned out.  If it's just the non-linear response curve, then you can adjust that with some tuning solutions like the TTS, or you can buy another solution from V&H that claims to also be able to remove the lag.  http://www.vanceandhines.com/store/throttlepak/throttlepak/

I have no first hand experience with the V&H ThrottlePak, and I normally don't recommend add-ons versus fixing the calibration in the ECM , but since you already have the SEPST instead of the more capable TTS, it is an alternative.


Jerry
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 03:00:31 PM »

I've been doing a little research on the SEPST.  I don't have the software or the cables so I would need to buy those.

I called the shop that did the motor work and the tune about my off idle hesitation.  The answer I got was it is typical of the cam I'm using.  They also cautioned me not to mess with the SEPST as to not ruin a good tune.  That makes sense but I still don't like the dead spot I have right off idle.  If there was an easy way to adjust the area in the map related to the dead spot I would like to try.  I would leave the rest alone.

I also read somewhere that you can upgrade the SEPST to a TTS?  Or at least thats what it looked like.  After reading the TTS website it looks like I need to be able to hook up to my bike in order to get the info they need so I can send my unit in to have it upgraded.  Nothing is ever easy! :coolblue:

I wonder if the TTS would be a better investment? or go with a PCV with auto tune or Thundermax?

I think I have a good tune but I would like the ability to make a small adjustment or two if I wanted to.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 03:10:39 PM by 2006ULTRA »
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 03:36:38 PM »

2006ultra,I have the same off idle stumble/lag that you are talking about.I own a 2009 cvo roadglide.I have been trying to get rid of this glitch for a while.Had the tts and it didnt remove lag.Switched to rev perf ems it helped but still not good.Installed the V&H throttle pac mentioned, helped a little but still not acceptable. The way it was explained to me is the computer is reacting to a request,when you twist the throttle,and it is adjusting as it performs the request and protecting the motor from over reacting.I think its all bullchit.If it had a carb you could get the lag out in three seconds.My wifes 2010 sesg,same motor 110ci,V&H dresser duals,V&H fuel pac, SE fatshots slip ons.No lag no noise. One thing I did notice that we both have is the V&H power duals and now that I think of it this condition may have started right after I installed them.Also there was a post, not sure if it was this forum, by a well known builder from FL who mentioned these pipes would be a problem due to the length of the bungs for the o2 sensors.It seems that they are too short and do not get a good sniff for the computer.Who knows I am thinking of changing to a 2-1 set up.All it takes is money.Fred
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 03:49:36 PM »

Thanks for the post!  I just seems like there a split second between me cracking the throttle and any reaction from the bike.  Drives me nuts!

I also read something about the 02 placement with these pipes but didn't give too much thought to it.  What is the difference on where the 02 sensors are located on the stock pipes vs the Vance n Hines?



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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 05:10:00 PM »

Thanks for the post!  I just seems like there a split second between me cracking the throttle and any reaction from the bike.  Drives me nuts!

I also read something about the 02 placement with these pipes but didn't give too much thought to it.  What is the difference on where the 02 sensors are located on the stock pipes vs the Vance n Hines?


It sounds to me like you are describing the infamous TBW throttle lag. Come spring, I'm going to try to adjust the TTS to increase the throttle sensitivity to see if that helps.
Not sure if the SEPST has that feature, but I'm sure someone that does will chime in here for you.

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glens

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 05:49:43 PM »

Several issues in the past few posts...

First, you can't upgrade a SEPST to TTS.  It's the old SERT which you can upgrade.  TTS made the SERT and it's basically the same hardware.  SEPST is made by a different company and the hardware is different.  If you were a hardware/software hacker you could probably get any of them to use any software/calibrations you wanted, but not only would it not be worth the time and effort, it might net you some "time" as well.

The V&H pipes, from what I've gathered from forum posts here and there, often have sensor bungs which are both less than optimum in configuration as well as in placement.  If the sensor isn't well into and sufficiently bathed by a good stream of exhaust gas at all times it cannot produce good information for the ECM at all times.  It's entirely possible your low-engine-speed dissatisfaction results from that situation, compounded by reversions brought on by the overall configuration and by your cam selection.  In such cases, if "fixing" the sensor bungs doesn't solve the problem you'd probably just have to forego closed-loop operation in that area, and that's really not a major issue in and of itself.  Pretty easy to do with the tuning equipment you have.  But it wouldn't be my first choice; I'd try to fix the cause first.

Perhaps a better description of "throttle lag" is in order?  Is it that the engine stumbles or is it that the engine doesn't make as much of its power as you'd expect for the amount of twistgrip movement?

I've found a thread here in which it's mentioned that the throttle blade control table in the SEPST does not "work" in either 1st or 6th gears: http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=69358.msg962423#msg962423

I'd assume your predicament is primarily of concern while in first gear?  If so, and if the above information is correct (I don't doubt it based upon who said it) then you'll likely get no joy making that adjustment anyway.  An alternative would be to adjust the Acceleration Enrichment in just that area.  Without having that software at hand I can't say just how easy that would be to do.  My gut tells me that an adjustment to just that one area would not "harm" an otherwise good tune in any way, and if the H-D software is even halfway good it shouldn't be too difficult.  In any event, you can try either or both adjustments and if it doesn't do what you want, simply revert your changes.

I find the throttle blade control to be a good thing.  I've attached the table I have in use on my bike.  I don't recall changing it from the base TTS calibration I used.  You'll see that once the RPM reaches 2500 the throttle blade follows the twistgrip from then on out (the bottom row values extend to all the higher RPM).  At 1000 RPM the most the throttle will ever open is 17%, no matter how far I twist the grip.  It gets progressively more 1:1 as the engine speed increases.

I like it very much.  There's absolutely no delay.  Whenever I twist the grip the engine speeds up.  It just does so at a non-linear rate.  When I'm in a low gear with the engine speed down just plodding along the throttle isn't so sensitive to my input and I find it much easier to control smoothly.

The calibration Fullsac sent me (which I didn't use) had all the column values maxed out to match the column headers.  I cannot understand why anyone would want to do that unless the cam they were using was particularly "soft on the bottom".  I like the SE255 which is just about "on the cam" at idle; it suits my riding style much better than what most folks are posting here for their dyno charts.

You'll note my 20% column is already 1:1 just off idle.  How many of you ever open your throttle even that much just off idle?
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 06:29:24 PM »

Problem is the stumble is there in first gear or fifth or third,like when you blip the throttle to downshift.You get nothing but spring load and no or little response.You have to get the rpms up a bit to get throttle response. My wifes 2010 sesg is no problem. Im wondering if its the pipes or the computer.
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2012, 07:43:49 AM »

NO, it is not normal to have hesitation with a properly tuned engine.  Do you have a true hesitation, or are you possibly experiencing the slight lag that Harley has programmed into the low speed response curve of the ETC?  Two different things.  If a true hesitation, it can be tuned out.  If it's just the non-linear response curve, then you can adjust that with some tuning solutions like the TTS, or you can buy another solution from V&H that claims to also be able to remove the lag.  http://www.vanceandhines.com/store/throttlepak/throttlepak/

I have no first hand experience with the V&H ThrottlePak, and I normally don't recommend add-ons versus fixing the calibration in the ECM , but since you already have the SEPST instead of the more capable TTS, it is an alternative.


Jerry


I have the Vance & Hines throttlepak and I love it and would not own another Harley without installing this addition  :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2012, 07:54:30 AM »

Get the TTS and find a good tuner,for up your way my buddy that lives in Ft.  Madison His Name is Caroll also goes by Happyman  on this site usees the TTS and could direct you to a good tunner up there in Iowa.He is the one that got me into Harleys when I was a kid.He can stear you in the right Direction up your way.I had the same problem on my 09 cvo road glide and the cvo street glide TTS is the way to go. No dead spots at all .Better hold on when you Barley touch the throttle .I'll mail you his # tell him Tim said Hello if you call him.
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2012, 09:10:54 AM »

Problem is the stumble is there in first gear or fifth or third,like when you blip the throttle to downshift.You get nothing but spring load and no or little response.You have to get the rpms up a bit to get throttle response. My wifes 2010 sesg is no problem. Im wondering if its the pipes or the computer.

Mine does it to when down shifting.  Maybe a result of my combo but I think some fine tuning would definitely help.

I'm wondering if I get a TTS can they extract the map out of my SEPST?  I would hate to destroy a good tune.  My bike runs like a raped ape everywhere but off idle.

Tim; thanks for the help!  I'll definitely give him a call.
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2012, 11:17:33 AM »

You need to buy nothing more than the software and cable. But there is a snafu maybe. I am not sure if you can download your current map in the ECU, work on it, then return it. If you have the current map on disk, the map file, then you are good to go. Glens is the SME he would know if modifying the installed program is possible without a disk backup. If you can't you are looking at a retune. The TTS or the SEPST are both capable devices to get that accomplished in the right hands. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Glens' analysis concurs with mine
"An alternative would be to adjust the Acceleration Enrichment in just that area."
You will find, based on my experience, when cams and so on are changed they usually need a little "less" not "more" fuel.
I am assuming the mechanical condition of the components is all good, especially intake seals, and also the O2 sensors are properly placed in the exhaust stream and isolated from crosstalk from each other.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 11:22:48 AM by Deweysheads »
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2012, 07:23:57 PM »

I believe the SEPST unit itself contains a copy of the last calibration uploaded to the ECM and that that copy can be retrieved and worked with.
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2012, 12:20:37 AM »

Had the same problem. Since the bike had been running perfectly for 9000 miles since installation of TTS & a dyno tune, I suspected that the problem was either an electrical or mechanical malfunction . The replacement of the twist grip sensor assembly pn 32310-08, cured the issue. I had ridden about 900 miles in the rain just prior to the start of the hesitation. Part was replaced under my ESP.
(Boy, am I glad my dealer talked me into buying an ESP. Has paid for itself X 2 already!!)

Tom P.
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2012, 08:12:53 PM »

Sounds like getting the software and cable is what I need to do and go from there.

I was at my brother in law's today and he has a sweet street 08 glide with a 113.  He went from a SERT to a thundermax and seems to like it.  His throttle response is crisp and responsive.

I've considered the Tmax but can't get over replacing the stock ECM.
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2012, 08:47:52 PM »

I'm sure there are some off-the-wall engine builds that the Delphi can't handle properly where the TMax would work well.  Without having to go to a replacement ECM like that, I'd consider it a waste of money to swap out the Delphi.  Also, I'm fond of having a MAP sensor used in various ECM calculations for both fuel and spark timing.  Last I knew, TMax doesn't use it for anything (except maybe getting a barometric reading at startup?).

It might be only the orange SEPST units which hold a copy of the last calibration burned to the bike.  If you have one of the earlier (I think black) units it might not do that.
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2012, 08:57:26 PM »

I have the Orange one.  I found a couple video's of the SEPST on youtube.  Didn't really learn much from those videos but it looks like it has a lot of capabilities.

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2012, 09:29:48 PM »

Yeah, you can get the job done with it.  Some of the way the software does things is a little funky/unexpected compared to other systems, and the user interface doesn't leave much middle ground: you pretty much either love it or hate it.  I don't love it...
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2012, 10:45:32 PM »

Return to HD, ask for a stock ECM flash (it's free)...order a power commander 5 from fuelmotousa.com with it already mapped to your set up. Sorry that you are stuck with a useless SERT, but unless you are a gifted tuner, good luck! I have been to classes and worked with a guy who knows the ins and outs and he likes the PC5 better. And you can even run an auto tuner with it and call it a day.
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2012, 10:38:29 AM »

Return to HD, ask for a stock ECM flash (it's free)...order a power commander 5 from fuelmotousa.com with it already mapped to your set up. Sorry that you are stuck with a useless SERT, but unless you are a gifted tuner, good luck! I have been to classes and worked with a guy who knows the ins and outs and he likes the PC5 better. And you can even run an auto tuner with it and call it a day.

I like this idea but I'm afraid that with my luck the bike will never run as good (other than the throttle blip) as it does now.

They shop that did my build has a pretty strong formula for the 110, they have been doing this combo for years and it makes a ton of HP and TQ.  I'm sure some of this power comes from timing.  If I go with a different tuner I will lose that advantage with a new map.

Question; If I get the cable and software for the SE Pro Tuner can I look at all the tables and print them off, then if I change tuners just duplicate those tables and create my own map?
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 10:52:04 AM »


Question; If I get the cable and software for the SE Pro Tuner can I look at all the tables and print them off, then if I change tuners just duplicate those tables and create my own map?


You wrote in your initial post that the bike already had a SERT.  Why not continue using it since you already own it?
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 11:25:04 AM »

I'm sure I will unless I can't get the throttle stumble out of it. 

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 07:19:11 PM »

  the cable is just a usb to printer cable. I take it you have your little orange box? I can send u a copy of the software.
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 07:52:50 PM »

That would be great!  Don't I need a special end on the cable to hook in to the port on the bike?

Yes I have the Orange box
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 03:49:22 AM »

Yeah...have that too. Email me your.address. holeshotchoppers@gmail.com
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2006ULTRA

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2012, 10:05:50 AM »

Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it.

I had to pick up some other parts and just decided to get the software and cable.  I had a 20% discount so I figured I might as well pick them up.

Now I'll have to do some reading and figure out how to use it.

When I hook in to the bike for the first time do I have a risk of erasing the current map?
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2014, 05:56:40 PM »

Did you ever resolve this?  I was fighting this same stumble on my '10 CVO SG with Feuling 574 cams, Fullsac x pipe and V&H Hi Output slipons.

I pulled some fuel from the Accel Enrichment table and leaned the Main Lambda table from 1000 - 1500 rpm.

So far, I seemed to have eliminated the stumble.  More testing to come.

Mal
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2014, 08:40:55 AM »

Another discovery this morning...  The WarmUp Enrichment table is adding fuel (in my map) throughout the warm up range...  From what I read, it should taper off and then add fuel at the hottest cells.  Right?

This is what mine looks like

-16  0.217
0     0.185
16   0.158
32   0.137
48   0.130
64   0.125
80   0.115
96   0.108
112 0.094
128 0.084
144 0.075
160 0.068
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2014, 09:58:09 AM »

Another discovery this morning...  The WarmUp Enrichment table is adding fuel (in my map) throughout the warm up range...  From what I read, it should taper off and then add fuel at the hottest cells.  Right?

This is what mine looks like

-16  0.217
0     0.185
16   0.158
32   0.137
48   0.130
64   0.125
80   0.115
96   0.108
112 0.094
128 0.084
144 0.075
160 0.068

Every map I ever saw has the warm-up fuel table degrade as the temps rise. The warm up table is activated every time you restart the bike....the hotter the temps the sooner it shuts down, however if someone was trying to fix a hot start problem by adding fuel in this table I can see where you would see higher numbers in the higher temps. The warm-up table will not address a hot start problem....you would have to use the Cranking Table for starting fuel problems.
As far as the hesitation off idle, or leaving a red light/stop sign situation, I would add or subtract fuel in the 750 rpm area in the VE tables........as you take off the rpm's fall below idle rpm at times and I have found getting the VE's right in the 750 rpm row is a huge gain in low end stumble problems.
Doc
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 10:02:49 AM by Doc 1 »
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2014, 10:16:21 AM »

Thanks Doc... I didn't think about the RPMs dropping at take off. 

I just spent $450 in two separate tuning sessions at Colonial HD... only to drive away and have that off idle stumble more present than ever.  GRRRRR!!   I'll reduce the fuel on the VE tables @ 750 rpm and try it out.

Will post results!

Mal
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2014, 12:11:57 PM »

interested in what you find with this, im having a similar issue but its not consistent... its done it since day one & i have had it tuned with fullsac pipe, better... cam, heads, pistons... better but it will still do it if it feels like it? 
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2014, 11:26:43 AM »

So.. I was able to eliminate MOST of the idle blip stumble... not all.. but most, by pulling fuel from the Accel Enrichment table.

I am going to dump the Feuling 574 Cams and go to the Andrews 54 or 57 Cams.  I am not thrilled that the Feuling Cams make torque beginning at 3700 rpms.  I am looking for more down low.

Mal
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2014, 02:52:38 PM »

The 54 cam suffers at bottom end also.....the 57 is a way better cam than the 54, however your 255 is the best for the bottom and midrange torque......yes the ones you took out......lol
Doc
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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2014, 08:53:26 AM »

Doc, you don't go out to Sturgis with a Dyno... do you?

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Re: Hesitation in throttle response off idle?
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2014, 01:22:59 PM »

Doc, you don't go out to Sturgis with a Dyno... do you?

No....my dyno is bolted to the floor in the shop...sorry...however you can always come here....just pack up the family for a Disney trip and bring your bike.....lol
Doc
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