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Author Topic: last Saturday my bike bleed out  (Read 13033 times)

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SBB

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2012, 10:23:35 PM »

its rough to swallow  but i think i got the dealer behind
me now so i should know something by tuesday good or bad


so i should know something by tuesday good or bad

Good or bad?

SBB
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2012, 05:07:34 AM »

 HE DID CALL LATE TUESDAY BUT NO ANSWER YET  MAYBE TODAY
THANKS FOR ASKING
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djkak

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2012, 04:10:49 PM »

An accurate determination of these circumstances can’t really be made from an examination of the photos alone; although based on the photos and Gabe’s explanation, it does seem that there may be several paragraphs missing from the explanation.

The photographs show a great amount of dirt and sludge throughout the engine. This is significant in that this kind of contamination doesn’t occur immediately after a trigger event, but takes a fair amount of time and mileage. Some of the folks here that have straightened out a few oil burning 110’s might have some photographs of this sort of thing; although my sense is that Gabe’s photos are unique.

Engines running under the conditions pictured typically lack power; use oil; smoke; leave an oily residue in the exhaust; turn a fresh oil change black and when the crankcase pressure increases to a point, push oil through the crankcase vent into the air cleaner. The question in Gabe’s case is how long had the engine been run since the trigger event that resulted in what is seen in the photos.

Gabe’s photos show that both cylinders exhibit excessive blow-by, resulting from an undetermined trigger event. The piston skirts don’t appear unreasonably scored, indicating that the issue was not likely the result of a lack of lubrication. Evidence that the issue was the result of excessive heat rather than a mechanical failure may be found by inspecting the vat cleaned pistons as well as inspecting the exhaust guides, which become bell mouthed at the port end when subjected to extreme overheating. External evidence like the burnt clutch line seem to support a case for overheating, but things like discolored heat shields, melted plastic and rubber, etc., would be more compelling.

With regard to oiling, the orientation of the rear cylinder’s spigot, together with the flywheel’s direction of rotation, results in the rear cylinder receiving a greater percentage of the oil carried by the flywheels. When oil control becomes an issue, such as when the piston rings have been compromised, as apparent in this case, the rear cylinder will always pass more oil than the front, all other things being equal.

The tamper proof nature of H-D’s engine management controls have evolved from a couple of pop rivets securing the timer cover in 1980, to an ECM that must be “unlocked” in order to be flashed with a custom calibration. Once an operator removes the lock on the engine management controls, H-D no longer has exclusive control of these systems, and the responsibility that goes along with that control. If an issue arises after unlocking the ECM, a person might be able to determine the current installed configuration, but it is not likely that one could establish an irrefutable history of all configurations run since the ECM was unlocked; much less the conditions present throughout the tuning process.

Gabe’s engine was tuned approximately 1,000 miles prior to the eventual failure that was pictured. If the tuning effort was extensive, one would reasonably expect a series of pre-tune baseline tests to be performed in order to confirm that the engine and powertrain was mechanically sound prior to tuning. If Gabe’s engine meltdown began prior to the tuning, a leak-down test would have uncovered the problem. If a baseline series was performed and didn’t reveal any issues, then there is strong causality suggesting the engine’s calibration or the recalibration process played some role in the failure.

Regarding consistency and precedent; I believe that Chip’s issue, mentioned earlier, was the result of an exhaust valve guide dropping into the port, preventing the valve from closing. During that period there was an open “product program” which addressed an issue of mechanical failure with the cylinder heads on certain models. Chip’s machine may not have been included in the program, but the failure was a current field issue. My sense is that a warranty claim like Chip’s would be routine and wouldn’t require so much as a phone call, much less an inspection. Also, I’ll bet that the peripheral details weren’t volunteered or asked for. With Gabe, everything was on the table and on record. Dragging the boys and girls from Milwaukee up, with their pencils, note pads and cameras made that a certainty. The precedent established by H-D inspecting and covering engine damage that could be argued was caused by an unlocked, race only calibration and tuned by an independent third party, would be extreme.

My sense is that with regard to the vehicle’s powertrain flag on the VIN, you are toast; although it wouldn’t surprise me to hear that the Dealer helps you out to some extent.  :2vrolijk_21:

as always, just my humble opinion.
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2012, 04:31:27 PM »

An accurate determination of these circumstances can’t really be made from an examination of the photos alone; although based on the photos and Gabe’s explanation, it does seem that there may be several paragraphs missing from the explanation.

The photographs show a great amount of dirt and sludge throughout the engine. This is significant in that this kind of contamination doesn’t occur immediately after a trigger event, but takes a fair amount of time and mileage. Some of the folks here that have straightened out a few oil burning 110’s might have some photographs of this sort of thing; although my sense is that Gabe’s photos are unique.

Engines running under the conditions pictured typically lack power; use oil; smoke; leave an oily residue in the exhaust; turn a fresh oil change black and when the crankcase pressure increases to a point, push oil through the crankcase vent into the air cleaner. The question in Gabe’s case is how long had the engine been run since the trigger event that resulted in what is seen in the photos.

Gabe’s photos show that both cylinders exhibit excessive blow-by, resulting from an undetermined trigger event. The piston skirts don’t appear unreasonably scored, indicating that the issue was not likely the result of a lack of lubrication. Evidence that the issue was the result of excessive heat rather than a mechanical failure may be found by inspecting the vat cleaned pistons as well as inspecting the exhaust guides, which become bell mouthed at the port end when subjected to extreme overheating. External evidence like the burnt clutch line seem to support a case for overheating, but things like discolored heat shields, melted plastic and rubber, etc., would be more compelling.

With regard to oiling, the orientation of the rear cylinder’s spigot, together with the flywheel’s direction of rotation, results in the rear cylinder receiving a greater percentage of the oil carried by the flywheels. When oil control becomes an issue, such as when the piston rings have been compromised, as apparent in this case, the rear cylinder will always pass more oil than the front, all other things being equal.

The tamper proof nature of H-D’s engine management controls have evolved from a couple of pop rivets securing the timer cover in 1980, to an ECM that must be “unlocked” in order to be flashed with a custom calibration. Once an operator removes the lock on the engine management controls, H-D no longer has exclusive control of these systems, and the responsibility that goes along with that control. If an issue arises after unlocking the ECM, a person might be able to determine the current installed configuration, but it is not likely that one could establish an irrefutable history of all configurations run since the ECM was unlocked; much less the conditions present throughout the tuning process.

Gabe’s engine was tuned approximately 1,000 miles prior to the eventual failure that was pictured. If the tuning effort was extensive, one would reasonably expect a series of pre-tune baseline tests to be performed in order to confirm that the engine and powertrain was mechanically sound prior to tuning. If Gabe’s engine meltdown began prior to the tuning, a leak-down test would have uncovered the problem. If a baseline series was performed and didn’t reveal any issues, then there is strong causality suggesting the engine’s calibration or the recalibration process played some role in the failure.

Regarding consistency and precedent; I believe that Chip’s issue, mentioned earlier, was the result of an exhaust valve guide dropping into the port, preventing the valve from closing. During that period there was an open “product program” which addressed an issue of mechanical failure with the cylinder heads on certain models. Chip’s machine may not have been included in the program, but the failure was a current field issue. My sense is that a warranty claim like Chip’s would be routine and wouldn’t require so much as a phone call, much less an inspection. Also, I’ll bet that the peripheral details weren’t volunteered or asked for. With Gabe, everything was on the table and on record. Dragging the boys and girls from Milwaukee up, with their pencils, note pads and cameras made that a certainty. The precedent established by H-D inspecting and covering engine damage that could be argued was caused by an unlocked, race only calibration and tuned by an independent third party, would be extreme.

My sense is that with regard to the vehicle’s powertrain flag on the VIN, you are toast; although it wouldn’t surprise me to hear that the Dealer helps you out to some extent.  :2vrolijk_21:

as always, just my humble opinion.
well thank you for your input the dealer(Robby Cox) went to bat and lost with the mothership
but he did try which i must thank him for
he is now going to take bike from rockhill dealer and have his head engine builder at the ashboro dealership  take a look
then if his man in ashboro says it all needs to be replaced  he will bring it to Kenndale Johnson in wiston salem
where Kendall will  do the rebuild  and see what is  good and bad and what needs to be replaced  its hard to believe the lower case is bad????   but it could be 
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2012, 05:26:54 PM »

An accurate determination of these circumstances can’t really be made from an examination of the photos alone; although based on the photos and Gabe’s explanation, it does seem that there may be several paragraphs missing from the explanation.


as always, just my humble opinion.

However infrequent, Djkak always provides an educated, interesting and insightful perspective and commentary!   :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2012, 06:49:42 PM »

end result
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2012, 06:57:15 PM »

end result
Van don't you have that wrong... that's not the "end result"... that'll be when it's back together, installed and you're riding it again with confidence because you know that it has been assembled correctly with adequate parts by a competent technician (I recognize the shop ;D).

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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2012, 06:44:22 AM »

 ok  remove bike from dealer and brought it home.. shipped the heads out to be reworked /removed the block and send out to be blanced  welded and  new arms going with 113 kit  http://www.revperf.com/Products/machineShop.html 113 
heads really did not look as bad as dealer made out to but i sended them out also cylinder walls still have the x pattern in them  and look great  / i send botom end out but i did not found a problem there either spun great but they are going to check it out before rebuilding /  and rebuld anyway why its out /   parts order and on the way  /new ss push rod kit /new fueling lifters /new roller rockers  new cams  block and heads back in about 2 weeks
 replaced cams but no wear on them lifter even look good
I  HATE BEING UPSOLD  iam happy now haveing it hear and doing it myself
has far as oil problem  the oil sample has been sended to redline wanting on answer
thanks gabe
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #68 on: May 06, 2012, 07:05:30 AM »

  removed oil pan see pics  the pink you see see red line shock proof i did not drain trans before removing oil pan
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 07:07:03 AM by gabe »
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2012, 07:08:18 AM »

 another
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2012, 07:09:28 AM »

 after cleaning and pressure washing
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #71 on: May 06, 2012, 07:11:36 AM »

 sample send to red line with filter  i also removed oil cooler and haveing that flushed and checked
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #72 on: May 06, 2012, 07:14:12 AM »

 top of where oil pan is i also cleaned but not bad
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #73 on: May 06, 2012, 07:16:04 AM »

 where block connects to trans  i also clean our and made sure ports are open all the way
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2012, 09:50:24 AM »

However infrequent, Djkak always provides an educated, interesting and insightful perspective and commentary!   :2vrolijk_21:


As I have mentioned before there are just a few people on this site that I can take their advice to the bank with confidence.
Scott, you and our mystery guy djkak are two of that small group of people.

 ;)

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