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[Unbalanced]

What would you expect Vance & Hines to tell you about the product they are selling?  Of course they tell you it was perfect.

Now ask people who tune bikes for a living.  Ask DOC what he thinks of the vance and hines high out puts.

Vance and hines is all about sales, looks and sound.  My opinion, based on what I saw with their high out put mufflers on my bike.  Sound great, look great, not so good for power on a 110 motor

Ask Good Howie, he had the same mufflers doc stuck a 2x4 over half the muffler and the bottom end picked up proving not enough back pressure.  Get a muffler that is more restrictive and the torque number will come backup the top end number may come down a bit.   

[Mr. Warlock]

Looks to me like they stuck an EPA map in it and then tweaked it a touch to smooth it out, typical for a lot of dealership that don't really know how to tune. Lack of tuning knowledge....... why would you have the afr's so hi and why a 4th gear run, some dealerships just shouldn't have a dyno.

[Kuminatcha]

Looks to me like they stuck an EPA map in it and then tweaked it a touch to smooth it out, typical for a lot of dealership that don't really know how to tune. Lack of tuning knowledge....... why would you have the afr's so hi and why a 4th gear run, some dealerships just shouldn't have a dyno.

Just left there and asked them these questions. They said they dyno all of there bikes in 4th gear but couldn't tell me why. They also said the reason for the high afr is that they dyno for the best fuel economy unless the customer tells them to do otherwise. He wants to come pick my bike up and tune it to where I want it to be tomorrow. Is there something I need to tell them like get my afr closer to 12.8-13.2? Any help is much appreciated because I am obviously new to this.

[grc]

Just left there and asked them these questions. They said they dyno all of there bikes in 4th gear but couldn't tell me why. They also said the reason for the high afr is that they dyno for the best fuel economy unless the customer tells them to do otherwise. He wants to come pick my bike up and tune it to where I want it to be tomorrow. Is there something I need to tell them like get my afr closer to 12.8-13.2? Any help is much appreciated because I am obviously new to this.

The guy you talked to appears to be an idiot, and you may need to find a real tuner somewhere else.  The AFR shown on that chart is at WIDE OPEN THROTTLE.  That has absolutely nothing to do with fuel economy, unless you plan to always ride your bike wide open.  The fuel settings are different for cruise (closer to 14.5 usually).  If this place has a load cell on their dyno they can simulate all riding conditions including cruise, not just wide open throttle.  If I were you, I'd be checking around for a real tuner.  Harley dealerships can have good ones, but in my experience many do not.  Just having a dyno and knowing how to strap a bike on the dyno and run it through the gears doesn't make someone a qualified tuner.  As for the 4th gear deal, that used to be common back when the bikes only had 5 speed gearboxes.  Since Harley went to the 6 speed trans most places do the runs in 5th gear.  Ideally you would do the runs in top gear, but that could involve tire speeds that exceed the ratings of the tires on a Harley.

Jerry

[sadunbar]

The guy you talked to appears to be an idiot, and you may need to find a real tuner somewhere else.  The AFR shown on that chart is at WIDE OPEN THROTTLE.  That has absolutely nothing to do with fuel economy, unless you plan to always ride your bike wide open.  The fuel settings are different for cruise (closer to 14.5 usually).  If this place has a load cell on their dyno they can simulate all riding conditions including cruise, not just wide open throttle.  If I were you, I'd be checking around for a real tuner.  Harley dealerships can have good ones, but in my experience many do not.  Just having a dyno and knowing how to strap a bike on the dyno and run it through the gears doesn't make someone a qualified tuner.  As for the 4th gear deal, that used to be common back when the bikes only had 5 speed gearboxes.  Since Harley went to the 6 speed trans most places do the runs in 5th gear.  Ideally you would do the runs in top gear, but that could involve tire speeds that exceed the ratings of the tires on a Harley.

Jerry

Of course, Jerry is correct on all points.  Even if you have to travel a bit, it is well worth it to get a quality tune.  Thing is, a poor tune generally costs just as much as a superior tune...  Both you and your bike will benefit from a more qualifed tuner.

[timo482]

the problem with a tuner that will "tune it to where you want it to be" is that they dont sound like they really know what is going on. you have admitted that you are paying for expertise to do the job because you dont know what is going on.

if you have them set it to 12 to 1 or 13 to 1 all across the board you are going to get 20 mpg and its going to SUCK!!!!!!!

tuning is a art, its a science. you have a very nice looking very nice sounding exhaust - and its NEVER going to make lots of power. it will always look cool.

however a really GOOD tuner [the guy between the seat and the keyboard] will be able to salvage the situation and make it run properly to the best its going to be. just taking it back to the dealer and having them make the whole tune open loop will just make things worse.

this kind of situation that i see with my own eyes with people i know and ride with is exactly why the moco voids all the engine warranty when the tune and pipes are changed from stock - they cant control out "tuners" who should be playing pong on there computer instead of working on your bike.

it has not been brought up but you do know i hope that changing the pipes and adding a tuner has voided your engine warranty? you may get dealer warranty - but its going to be hard to get any engine service - ....

to

[Kuminatcha]

Just got back from the dealer to have my bike redynoed but they talked me out of it. The tech told me that my dyno was so good that he was bragging about it all day and wanted to frame it. It was brought to my attention that the only thing they look at when dynoing is getting the AFR in the straightest line possible no matter where it is. He said that the red dotted line on the AFR is there for reference only and means nothing. It seemed like a pretty dumb answer but I know just what I've learned here. Attached is my dyno. My plan now is to possibly bring my dyno sheet to Thunder Beach and see what the dyno guys there say. Thanks for all the help.

[Midnight Rider]

Just got back from the dealer to have my bike redynoed but they talked me out of it. The tech told me that my dyno was so good that he was bragging about it all day and wanted to frame it. It was brought to my attention that the only thing they look at when dynoing is getting the AFR in the straightest line possible no matter where it is. He said that the red dotted line on the AFR is there for reference only and means nothing. It seemed like a pretty dumb answer but I know just what I've learned here. Attached is my dyno. My plan now is to possibly bring my dyno sheet to Thunder Beach and see what the dyno guys there say. Thanks for all the help.

RUN, don't walk, from that dealership.  They don't know WTF they are doing and/or talking about.

Perhaps I missed it, but what tuning device are they using?  I assume it is the Screamin' Eagle Pro Race Tuner.  If it's not he "Pro" version, you got hosed.  The street version is basically just a bunch of canned maps that might be "close".

You can put the bike on a hundred Dynos just to get a pull and read numbers.  The purpose of the Dyno is to TUNE the bike but the operator has to know HOW to tune the bike with the device you are using.  HD dealers are notoriously incompetent when it comes to tuning a bike properly.

[Kuminatcha]

RUN, don't walk, from that dealership.  They don't know WTF they are doing and/or talking about.

Perhaps I missed it, but what tuning device are they using?  I assume it is the Screamin' Eagle Pro Race Tuner.  If it's not he "Pro" version, you got hosed.  The street version is basically just a bunch of canned maps that might be "close".

You can put the bike on a hundred Dynos just to get a pull and read numbers.  The purpose of the Dyno is to TUNE the bike but the operator has to know HOW to tune the bike with the device you are using.  HD dealers are notoriously incompetent when it comes to tuning a bike properly.

Using the SERT on their recomendation. The tech did tell me that he had no schooling using the dyno that he was taught on the job. Did you look at my dyno sheet, what do you hink about it?

[Midnight Rider]

Using the SERT on their recomendation. The tech did tell me that he had no schooling using the dyno that he was taught on the job. Did you look at my dyno sheet, what do you hink about it?

This is just a guess, but if what you have is the Screamin' Eagle Street Tuner (it's an orange "box" that says that) and not the Screamin' Eagle Pro Race Tuner, there is light years of difference between the two.  It appears to me that he has just stuck a canned map in the bike and done a dyno run.  Getting taught "on the job" is not always bad, but the person doing the teaching needs to know WTF they are doing or they are just passing along bad information.  If you have the Pro Race Tuner, I'd start looking for a competent tuner who like to use that device.  Your mufflers may not be helping the situation, but IMO, your numbers should be better than that.  As others have said, a wide open throttle A/F ratio has little to do with normal driving performance.

From my experience, most HD dealers LOVE to sell V&H products.  There is nothing wrong with their stuff, but it may not be the best for a particular application.  But it's what they sell and can make the most money from.

Perhaps Jerry can help me out here...is it possible for the dealer to flash the ECM without using the Street Tuner? 

[grc]

Using the SERT on their recomendation. The tech did tell me that he had no schooling using the dyno that he was taught on the job. Did you look at my dyno sheet, what do you hink about it?

You need to find some other shop to handle your work going forward, if that guy is the best they can come up with.  The fact that he doesn't know squat isn't negated by the fact that he was honest enough to admit he never received proper training.  Trust me, that is true of a ton of people in the typical Harley dealership.  Perhaps one person actually gets sent to real training, then it all goes downhill from there.  That guy gives the next guy an abbreviated quicky course on how to actually run the dyno, but as I've noted many times before there is a whole lot more to being a qualified tuner than just being able to run the bike on the dyno and produce a chart.  The most important part is the actual tuning and combustion theory, and that isn't something a regular tech is going to master after a quicky on-the-job chat session. 

Ask that guy, if you are foolish enough to go back to him, what he would do if he had a straight AFR trace at 18:1 and wide open throttle?  Based on what you reported he said, I guess he would have sent you on your way with that "fine" tune and let you burn your engine up. 

Jerry

[Kuminatcha]

Problem is this is the only dealer around my area, and the only one with a dyno. There is a regular shop that has a dyno but the owner seems kind of shadey to me.

[smiley1049]

Can you say Road Trip.

[Big C.]

  Kuminatcha were do u live? I'm sure one of us here can recommend good tuner thats closest to your area that can set that bike up with a solid tune.
 
                                                                 Cory

[Big C.]

  And for what its worth before you make the investment in a road trip and paying for another tuning session I would think long and hard about if you plan on doing anything else to that bike like a cam change.  Another thing if you like the look and over all sound of your new exhaust system and don't want to change it this may help. You can drill a hole in the bottom of the mufflers and install a bolt,washer and nut and weld a large washer to it.  This will let you adjust the back pressure while tuning.
                                               Cory