Topic: 124 with procharger (Read 6271 times)

BigLew · « **on:** June 08, 2013, 09:05:33 PM »

Wondering what oil temp this thing should run at? Riding this afternoon withouside temp around 75 degrees. Just riding easy at 55-60 mph. Seems hot at 250 degrees. Any ideas

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #1 on:** June 08, 2013, 10:04:58 PM »

Fine, ride it and don't worry.
FYI synthetic oil will extend the oil life at elevated temperatures.
Guys that live in the desert and have ambient of 95+ often see in excess of 275°F. Just a little more frequent oil changes for those extremes.

BigLew · « **Reply #2 on:** June 09, 2013, 09:13:19 AM »

Thanks just seemed hot because the ambient wasn't that warm and I wasn't using any boost

BigLew

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #3 on:** June 09, 2013, 09:22:32 AM »

I can only assume with that much going on you have cooler(s). If not get them and a Baker +1 oil pan is another good investment.

BigLew · « **Reply #4 on:** June 09, 2013, 08:07:13 PM »

Quote from: Deweysheads on June 09, 2013, 09:22:32 AM

I can only assume with that much going on you have cooler(s). If not get them and a Baker +1 oil pan is another good investment.

no coolers other than the intercooler. Just got it back from shop no oil pressure. Cam plate came loose. Fixed and pressure was good. Rode about 45 miles today in 82 degree heat. 2 lane road used no boost 2600-3800 rpm. By the time I got home 269 degrees, 5 lbs oil pressure. Almost like the hotter it got the lower the pressure. I'm scared to ride now. 12,000 miles on the build new issue nothing like this before. It's running hot when it shouldn't. 50-60 mph down the road it should cool down, just gets hotter.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #5 on:** June 09, 2013, 08:28:08 PM »

You should check for sumping first before jumping to any conclusions. I suspect the cam plate ordeal was doe in less than good fashion.

BigLew · « **Reply #6 on:** June 09, 2013, 08:36:49 PM »

Bolts just came loose and lost pressure. What's sumping?

hd-dude · « **Reply #7 on:** June 09, 2013, 09:01:03 PM »

Quote from: BigLew on June 09, 2013, 08:36:49 PM

Bolts just came loose and lost pressure. What's sumping?

When the oil does not get returned from the engine case to the oil pan. This causes excess pressure in the case and an extreme loss of power. Typically it's caused by the oil pump not being installed correctly.

BigLew · « **Reply #8 on:** June 09, 2013, 09:35:02 PM »

Got a suggestion as to a course of action?

BigLew

hd-dude · « **Reply #9 on:** June 09, 2013, 09:41:44 PM »

What is your hot oil pressure at idle? At 3000 rpm?

HILLSIDECYCLE.COM · « **Reply #10 on:** June 10, 2013, 06:34:21 AM »

FWIW,
Service manuals state up to 60*-20W-50.
60*-80*---------------------------50W.
North of 80*-----------------------60W.
Scott

BigLew · « **Reply #11 on:** June 10, 2013, 08:41:32 AM »

Quote from: hd-dude on June 09, 2013, 09:41:44 PM

What is your hot oil pressure at idle? At 3000 rpm?

At 269 degrees at the end of the 40 minute ride yesterday morning pressure gauge was flashing at 5 lbs. I did a few slow revs to 1800-2000 rpms and it went up to 16-18lbs. Seems very wierd. Getting scared to ride it!

BigLew

BigLew · « **Reply #12 on:** June 10, 2013, 08:45:17 AM »

Quote from: hd-dude on June 09, 2013, 09:01:03 PM

When the oil does not get returned from the engine case to the oil pan. This causes excess pressure in the case and an extreme loss of power. Typically it's caused by the oil pump not being installed correctly.

Not aware that anything has changed with the pump. As far as I knoweverything was fine with the build up until a couple of days ago when it lost oil pressure and the shop found the cam plate loose. I believe the build has 12-14k miles on it. Just bought the bike a few weeks ago.

BigLew

hd-dude · « **Reply #13 on:** June 10, 2013, 04:58:03 PM »

Do you know what cam plate and oil pump were used in the build?
What was the hot oil pressure at idle and 3K before the cam plate came loose?
Did the shop just tighten the plate down or remove it to be sure the oil passage O-rings had not slipped out of place while it was loose?

BigLew · « **Reply #14 on:** June 10, 2013, 05:05:10 PM »

Quote from: hd-dude on June 10, 2013, 04:58:03 PM

Do you know what cam plate and oil pump were used in the build?
What was the hot oil pressure at idle and 3K before the cam plate came loose?
Did the shop just tighten the plate down or remove it to be sure the oil passage O-rings had not slipped out of place while it was loose?

when she lost oil pressure last week she seemed a little hot but not sure. Shop checked the gauge and the sending unit and they were good then pulled the cam cover and saw that the plate was loose. Did inspection and re assemblied with new bolts. Then came yesterday with the issue with the temps being so hot (270) and 5 lbs at idle. You could tell she was hot. Not sure where all that came from. It was just a nice easy ride with no boost and moderate rpms. I did go home at lunch and fire her up cold and had 42 lbs at idle.

BigLew

sadunbar · « **Reply #15 on:** June 10, 2013, 08:02:25 PM »

I'd disassemble the cam chest and do an inspection. As Jim mentioned, verify all the cam plate and oil pump o'rings are present and properly located. Better yet, replace the o'rings with new. And take your oil pump apart and make sure it isn't scored internally. Verify the camplate is flat and when tightened to the case that it is "feeler gage" tight at all points. Oil leakage at any of these areas can cause sumping and produce heat. It also can produce aerated oil, which can affect lifter function and oil pressure.

With your motor at operating temperature, what was your oil pressure at 3K and at idle before this occurred?

With your motor at operating temperature, what is your oil pressure at 3K and at idle now?

BigLew · « **Reply #16 on:** June 11, 2013, 08:42:43 AM »

Don't really know the answer to the question, what is oil pressure at normal temp? Not really sure what normal operation temp would be on this motor. I've only owned this bike a couple of weeks. Everything seemed to be normal until I lost oil pressure last week. Now this, what a pain.

Biglew

Razorback · « **Reply #17 on:** June 11, 2013, 11:29:01 AM »

First camplate coming loose I have heard of, get that thing back apart, replace all Orings, check inner cam bearings, better yet just replace them and inspect lifter bores, depending how loose that camplate was the cams were moving around as well, would want to make sure it didn't affect my lifters or lifter bore. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that it is sumping, probably an Oring in the pump to case out of alignment or the small case to plate O-rings. And by all means get some sort of an oil cooler on that thing.

BigLew · « **Reply #18 on:** June 11, 2013, 02:46:50 PM »

What kind of cooler? Got the factory 110 cooler on it now. Soemone mentioned maybe a Baker+1 oil pan.

BigLew

Hog95023 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 11, 2013, 03:09:48 PM »

Jim HDDude put the jagg fan assist cooler on my bike. I don't have an oil temp gauge but my 124 seems to be running cool.

BigLew · « **Reply #20 on:** June 11, 2013, 03:29:17 PM »

Quote from: Hog95023 on June 11, 2013, 03:09:48 PM

Jim HDDude put the jagg fan assist cooler on my bike. I don't have an oil temp gauge but my 124 seems to be running cool.

I wouldn't think that a fan would help at highway speeds.

BigLew

CVOThunder · « **Reply #21 on:** June 11, 2013, 03:53:15 PM »

Would seem to me that an oil cooler designed for a 110 wouldn't have enough cooling for a supercharged 124. I agree with the bigger oil pan but if you add the Oil Bud then there won't be enough room. I'd add a bigger oil cooler w/fan along with the +1 pan if it was my sled. The fan just helps mainly at lower speeds cuz once you start building heat then it's hard to get rid of. I would look first at the cam chest and make sure the oil pump has fresh o rings and sealed properly. Something changed and the loose chest was the first indicator. Ask the guys who repaired it if they just tightened down the hardware or if they looked into other issues while they were in there.

I went with cylinder head fans on mine which works well in slower traffic but probably not much benefit at speed. It would help out (like the oil cooler fan) if you were coming from slow traffic as the temp wouldn't be as high once you start getting up to highway speed. I haven't looking into the procharger but with the intercooler and other hardware, it seems to me that the normal cooling path would be altered. These are just some random thoughts but as with diesel engines, if you create a heat stack that can't eliminate all of the heat or make it controllable then you'll have problems. As I'm sure you are aware, anytime you compress air it's creating heat. The intercooler could be blocking the normal airflow path and what flow is coming through it is already heated higher than ambient. Maybe I'm all wet but that's my understanding of thermodynamics.

BigLew · « **Reply #22 on:** June 11, 2013, 04:23:18 PM »

I will say this, before the loss of oil pressure issue with the cam plate coming loose, I would have told you that the 124 with the blower ran cooler than my 110 with the small andrews cam and tune. Dont have any hard data but seat of the pant says so.

BigLew

sadunbar · « **Reply #23 on:** June 11, 2013, 05:24:12 PM »

Quote from: BigLew on June 11, 2013, 03:29:17 PM

I wouldn't think that a fan would help at highway speeds.

BigLew

I have the Jagg 10 row with fan assist on my 120. The fan does nothing at highway speeds, but will lower oil temperature (or rather help prevent oil temperatures from raising) at speeds 30 mph and slower. Prior to installing the fan option on to my Jagg 10 row, I would run good oil temperature down the highway, but would always gain lots of temperature going thru a town. Then it would take miles and miles to gradually cool back down. With the fan option, gaining excess temperatures thru town is no longer an issue.

sadunbar · « **Reply #24 on:** June 11, 2013, 05:29:40 PM »

Quote from: BigLew on June 11, 2013, 04:23:18 PM

I will say this, before the loss of oil pressure issue with the cam plate coming loose, I would have told you that the 124 with the blower ran cooler than my 110 with the small andrews cam and tune. Dont have any hard data but seat of the pant says so.

BigLew

That's another sign that you now have in issue in the cam chest. Razorback brought up some good points about inspecting/changing your cam bearings and inspecting your lifters and lifter bores, as well as inspecting your oil pump and replacing the oil pump and camplate o'rings. It would be wise to inspect the cam and crank bores in the camplate for wear also. Running with your camplate loose has the potential for many issues. No major issues that can't be corrected with a few new pieces, but issues that need to be inspected and resolved before anymore riding takes place.

BigLew · « **Reply #25 on:** June 12, 2013, 11:10:18 AM »

Quote from: Deweysheads on June 09, 2013, 09:22:32 AM

I can only assume with that much going on you have cooler(s). If not get them and a Baker +1 oil pan is another good investment.

So Dewey the 09 SERG has a smaller cooler on the front. What would you reccomend for a cooler if I was going to change? Also do you really think that the Baker 1.5+ pan would help? $795 seems excessive for just a pan.

BigLew

wnogood · « **Reply #26 on:** June 12, 2013, 01:34:39 PM »

Jagg makes a decent cooler. As far as the bigger oil pan? More oil capacity generally means cooler oil. I had a 11:1 big bore 95" that I ran 2 jaggs and a hd low mount cooler on and besides all the cooler ability, I gained almost a full quart of additional capacity.

BigLew · « **Reply #27 on:** June 13, 2013, 01:10:23 PM »

Quote from: sadunbar on June 11, 2013, 05:29:40 PM

That's another sign that you now have in issue in the cam chest. Razorback brought up some good points about inspecting/changing your cam bearings and inspecting your lifters and lifter bores, as well as inspecting your oil pump and replacing the oil pump and camplate o'rings. It would be wise to inspect the cam and crank bores in the camplate for wear also. Running with your camplate loose has the potential for many issues. No major issues that can't be corrected with a few new pieces, but issues that need to be inspected and resolved before anymore riding takes place.

So can you buy the Jagg 10 with the fan already on it or is it a seperate process? How about the "oil bud"? I believe thats the one that fits under the oil pan on the bottom of the engine. is it any good?

BigLew

JohnCA58 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 13, 2013, 02:25:23 PM »

I already had the 10 row Jagg oil cooler low mount on the bike, since putting the 120 in the bike, I have the Wards engine fans on, and added the Big Sky fans to the oil cooler, great set up and plug and play and 69.00 for the manual kit is cheap and at my door two days later. .5 to install it. I also run the Baker plus one pan.
http://bigskyfan.tripod.com/

on stop and go traffic I use both fans and it helps.

The Bud oil cooler, buddy had it on his bike, work great for cooling, but it collected every little rock and debris on top of the cooler between the engine, trans and cooler and was worried eventually would wear thru the cooler from vibration, he finally pulled it off and sold it. went with the Jagg cooler when he compare the volume between the Jagg being much better than the HD cooler.

sadunbar · « **Reply #29 on:** June 13, 2013, 03:58:31 PM »

Quote from: BigLew on June 13, 2013, 01:10:23 PM

So can you buy the Jagg 10 with the fan already on it or is it a seperate process? How about the "oil bud"? I believe thats the one that fits under the oil pan on the bottom of the engine. is it any good?

BigLew

You can buy the Jagg 10 row with the fan kit as a package. I already had the Jagg 10 row (before the fan kit was available), and later added the fan kit when Jagg released it.

I don't know anything about the "oil bud".

BigLew · « **Reply #30 on:** June 13, 2013, 04:03:42 PM »

"Cool" did you buy it from Jagg with the fan already on it?

BigLew

Fired00d · « **Reply #31 on:** June 13, 2013, 04:12:36 PM »

Quote from: BigLew on June 13, 2013, 04:03:42 PM

"Cool" did you buy it from Jagg with the fan already on it?

BigLew

Quote from: sadunbar on June 13, 2013, 03:58:31 PM

You can buy the Jagg 10 row with the fan kit as a package. I already had the Jagg 10 row (before the fan kit was available), and later added the fan kit when Jagg released it.

I don't know anything about the "oil bud".

Ride Safe,
Fired00d

sadunbar · « **Reply #32 on:** June 13, 2013, 07:12:54 PM »

Quote from: BigLew on June 13, 2013, 04:03:42 PM

"Cool" did you buy it from Jagg with the fan already on it?

BigLew

Here is a link to Jagg showing the cooler/fan kit.

http://www.jagg.com/FP2400.html

BigLew · « **Reply #33 on:** June 27, 2013, 10:23:19 AM »

Just got off the phone with the local Harley shop about the cam plate coming off and I think they have found the issue and its not good. It appears the crank bearing has walked and it pushed the cam plate loose! Now the flywheel is twisted and it apears the crank is bent. They are going to talk to darkhorse and see if the case and or the crank can be saved. its a S&S proplugged assembly and welded. So I really think the guts in this thing are good and I've only ridden it for a couple of hundred miles or so, and the guy I bought it from didn't jerk it around either. Not really sure what happen. Guess the real question is where do I go from here? This sounds like a very expensive project, to repair or replace. Now I'm wondering if I even leave the procharger on it. What a mess, any suggestions on this 124?

BigLew

Buy the way send money to the rebuild fund for BigLew! LOL

sadunbar · « **Reply #34 on:** June 27, 2013, 10:49:49 AM »

Quote from: BigLew on June 27, 2013, 10:23:19 AM

Just got off the phone with the local Harley shop about the cam plate coming off and I think they have found the issue and its not good. It appears the crank bearing has walked and it pushed the cam plate loose! Now the flywheel is twisted and it apears the crank is bent. They are going to talk to darkhorse and see if the case and or the crank can be saved. its a S&S proplugged assembly and welded. So I really think the guts in this thing are good and I've only ridden it for a couple of hundred miles or so, and the guy I bought it from didn't jerk it around either. Not really sure what happen. Guess the real question is where do I go from here? This sounds like a very expensive project, to repair or replace. Now I'm wondering if I even leave the procharger on it. What a mess, any suggestions on this 124?

BigLew

Buy the way send money to the rebuild fund for BigLew! LOL

Wow... Was afraid that might have been the root cause. That's tough. I hope the damage is minimal...

RayG · « **Reply #35 on:** June 27, 2013, 12:23:41 PM »

I'm over my head on the cause of the damage but if I read this right your S&S crank was plugged & welded? I remember reading on another forum about the welding of the S&S cranks and the rep from S&S came on and said that the cranks were made to hold up to the big HP motors and actually said it would void any warranty. Basically the post went on to say that the welding of their crank would be asking for trouble. What I don't know if any of this applies to your situation. I really hope you get this repaired and back on the road with a sound dependable power plant.

Good Luck

BigLew · « **Reply #36 on:** June 27, 2013, 02:08:52 PM »

Yep I hope so as well. Just hope I'm not going to need a personal banker to get through this!

BigLew

Author Topic: 124 with procharger (Read 6271 times)