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[roger28310]

Aside from the same old discussions about nb vs wb, this flash device vs that flash device, alpha-n vs speed density, how about something newer, maybe better?

Has anyone aside from myself ever seen a harley run a Pectal, Cosworth or MegaSquirt engine management system? Aside from the cost, who cares, hypothetically, what do these systems do thats better than delphi?

[whittlebeast]

I have not heard of Pectal.

http://www.apexspeedtech.com/products-we-love-what-we-like-about-the-pectel-ecus-part-1-hardware

Megasquirt in its latest version is here.

http://www.diyautotune.com/ms3-pro.html

A smaller version in the Megasquirt family is the Microsquirt.  Code to run a Harley is in the works right now.

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-engine-management-system-ecu-only-p-519.html

Motec may also be an option.  The latest stuff is here

http://www.motec.com/m1/m1overview/

Haltec is also big in EFI.

http://www.haltech.com/

Vi-Pec may also be an option

http://www.vi-pec.com/

None of these are designed as is to run the dash or anything to do with the onboard CAN network.  Packaging is a huge issue in the Harley world and is no small consideration.

Andy

[roger28310]

Have heard of many of these systems. I only mentioned Pectel and MegaSquirt because I have ridden a couple of bikes that used it, and your references to Megasquirt got me looking at it. Really neat stuff. the delphi stuff seems sort of lacking next to it. But on the other hand, my brother had an engineer from Cosworth next to his bike when it was fired up the first time.

I am not really concerned with the packaging, it is what it is, form follows function. Aside from the wiring issues and packaging, can you speak to the performance of MegaSquirt vs Delhi?

[whittlebeast]

Data logging is golden in tuning any motor.  It is these logs that every system uses to tune these motors.

In the case of Microsquirt, the data logging will need to be done on some sort of portable device thru a bluetooth connection or hard wired to a computer.  If a computer is connected, you can do autotuning,  With an Android is used tuning would be offline but is still somewhat "Automatic".

MS3 and MS3 Pro added onboard data logging at far higher data rates. All three Megasquirt systems log almost every channel you can imagine.

Harley motors have a few quirks that is a little different than what coders normally have to deal with.  I will know more about this stuff soon.

All of this will be far more involved for the first few people that go this direction.  Once a few people jump in and get the bugs worked out, the knowledge base will spread fast.  The Megasquirt way of dealing with this sort of thing is way different than any other system out there.

Andy

[roger28310]

This is all really interesting to me. Not tipping my hand, but can say that I do have project coming up that I need a engine management system for. Starting from a clean slate, new TC engine going into a custom chassis. Will probably break int he engine on carb but plan to transition to FI.

Can I assume that MS3 and MS3 Pro will run an uneven firing V-Twin to include ignition functions?

Will it interface with existing harley style, cable operated throttle bodies and injectors?

Can you give me ROM on a MS3 Pro, wiring harness and all the bells and whistles to do up a bike? What am I looking at, $5k, $10k, more?

If not in the open forum, please send me some numbers via PM. Would like to plug this into the budget for planning purposes.

[whittlebeast]

Assuming you are starting with a EFI bike so you have injectors, pump, non DBW/ cable type throttle body...  A MS3 Pro can be done for about $1250

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtiii-ems-system-with-ms3x-expansion-v357-assembled-p-435.html

That is a non waterproof version of a Pro  I own a couple of them.

Andy

[roger28310]

Andy, that price is very doable, allot less than I expected.

What about the waterproof system that I saw the video of it running in a fish tank?

Just thinking out loud, but I would probably mount the box under the top triple tree or behind a mini fairing, without looking up the specs, it looks like its pretty small. Approximately how big is the box and how much does it weight?

And will it also handle the timing functions of an uneven firing v-twin?

I am really liking this.

[whittlebeast]

They are working out the timing issues right now on a Microsquirt platform with a Turbo Sporty.  Once that is sorted out, it would be ported to the MS3/MS3 Pro platform.  The base price for the Pro version is around $1200 with wiring harness.  

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ms3pro-standalone-ecu-with-839-wiring-harness-p-538.html

Keep in mind that this is all in alpha code right now as far as running a Harley but this stuff changes quick in the Megasquirt world.

Most of the issues revolve in finding compression stroke and TDC of the leading cylinder when cranking when you have no cam sensor.

Stay tuned

Andy

[roger28310]

Why cant the crank position sensor be used?

[Coyote.]

Why cant the crank position sensor be used?

It doesn't tell you what cycle you're on. The Delphi system uses crank slowing to tell if it's on the compression cycle.

[whittlebeast]

Here is what the MAP looks like in the intake of a running Harley.  This happens to be a Sporty.  The trace is showing 1 full engine cycle or 720 degrees of crank rotation.

The green trace is the code counting the teeth as they fly past at 2500 RPM or about 1333 HZ

The red trace is the MAP in the intake at any point in the 720 degrees of crank rotation.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/Ms3BetaTesting/Harley_MAP_Per_Tooth.png

It is the timing of these peaks and valleys that the code will use to determine where the crank is in this 720 degrees of rotation.  Most motors now use a cam sensor.  Harley takes a few shortcuts in the intrust of bling.

Way cool stuff

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is what 4 rotations of the crank would look like

http://www.ncs-stl.com/Ms3BetaTesting/Harley_MAP_Per_Tooth%20long.png

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Hey Andy!  If MEGASQUIRT figures this out, it would be way cool.  I, myself, still like the Delphi for street bikes.  MAP and ION make the day for me.  But for a race type application?  This could be really cool.

IIRC, there are actaully three things that have to line up to get spark and fuel from a Delphi.  The correct tooth on the crank, as read from the crank position sensor;  A high map signal; which signifies the intake valve opened; and crank slow down for compression stroke.  I also remember that the MAP signal is a 'check' value simply to insure the crank slow down is in a proper place.  Roger, remember that there is 720* of crank rotation for a complete 4 cycle combustion process.  Cars come this way too.  Use a crank trigger (which happens TWICE for each combustion process and something else like a hi MAP signal to tell when a valve opens.  Once this is found, the rest of the time the key is on, it remembers and does NOT do this for each revolution.

I looked at the MOTEC stuff for awhile, but have been awaiting the MS stuff to look at.  WHile you have been gone, I bought a 250i dyno to play with and gather data like we used to talk about.  Nice seeing you, dude!!!!!

Like I said, on the street, I will still take my Delphi.  But for going fats and having controlled conditions, I think the Alpha N stuff can do a wonderful job, more than wonderful, actually.  THIS is the stuff I wish Bob would talk about from his old days.....

Andy, I really hope you hang around, and this time NOT get frustrated, OK?  Even with me sometimes.

[whittlebeast]

The newest (like the last 6 months or so) MS3 code can run Speed density with a Alpha-N correction or the other way around.  It can also run SD till X MAP and then blend into AN.  Almost combination you can think up.

It also has fall back logic when a sensor fails.

What will will not do is change the radio station on you wideglide and never will

Andy

[whittlebeast]

The dimensions on a MS3 Pro is

Length: 150 mm edge to edge, 180 mm ear to ear
Width: 100 mm
Height: 28 mm to top of case, 43 mm to top of connectors with harness not installed
Weight: 260 grams


A Microsquirt measures

Length (end plate to end plate, not including flange): 2.75" (70 mm)
Length (end plate to end plate, including flanges): 3.75" (95 mm)
Width: 3.73" (95 mm)
Height: 1.70" (43 mm)

Andy

[Buckeye_Tuning]

When do you think this will be out of BETA?

[whittlebeast]

In the Megasquirt world, things typically go like this.

A New Idea = Some person has an idea that he posts on the site.  If the idea gets traction, the programmers may start to like the idea and start tossing ideas around how to type it up.  Three main guys do most of the programming.  A different guy does the MLV programming.  The is no company as such with an office.

Alpha = We think we have an idea that should work but we need a couple of people to try it on a motor and see what happens.  It appears to work on a scope and the bench as expected. 

Beta = We think it is working but we need a bunch of people to try it and see if it is working as they expect this sort of thing to work.  The programmers reserve the right to change the way it looks in the GUI a lot as people ask questions.

Release/Stable code = We know of no issues with the feature set.

I have seen things get thru this process in about a week.  Other things can take a year or never do make it to release.

With the Harley stuff.  One guy is making all sorts of HP, but he has a cam sensor making things easier.  The other guy is working thru the issues that come up on this sort of thing. 

Anybody can purchase raw boards, build a case and harness and sell them for a profit for any specific market.  The business model is very Linux like.  Lots of guys with lots of ideas and things get better very fast. 

Andy

[roger28310]

With the Harley stuff.  One guy is making all sorts of HP, but he has a cam sensor making things easier.  The other guy is working thru the issues that come up on this sort of thing. 

Hmm. You got me thinking. I have an older S&S SSW 124 Evo engine out in the shed. It has a standard Evo style cam sensor but it also has a hole in the left side of the case for a crank position sensor.

What does the Evo cam sensor and the crank sensor in a typical Evo style S&S 124" do for MegaSquirt?  Might have to put together a mutt rigid bike just to play around with this stuff.

[whittlebeast]

It makes it far easier for the programmers to figure out where in the 720 degrees of crank rotation the motor is at any given time.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

We have a Sporty up and running on a Microsquirt.  The switchover from wasted spark to full sequential fuel and ignition appears to be working.  Next step is getting the narrow band - dual channel - autotune working.  Once we get that working, we can dial in the fuel balance stuff on low power and then move on to the wideband single channel - boosted tuning.

This is going to be fun.  It is so much fun working with really talented programmers and everyone involved is on a mission. 

Way cool stuff.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here are some plots that highlight the issues of the fueling on a Harley Sportster.  They have a difference in fueling requirements front to rear.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/MSHarley/MySportyFuelBalance.png

My  bet is it is going to take dual widebands to truly dial in a turbo/blown Harley.  They will have to be relocated from upstream of the turbo for low speed balance to downstream for high MAP loads.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Here are some plots that highlight the issues of the fueling on a Harley Sportster.  They have a difference in fueling requirements front to rear.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/MSHarley/MySportyFuelBalance.png
Andy

These graphs look to be front cyl only?

Folks have been trying to balance fuel requirements on carbed HDs since individual cylinder O2 sampling began...circa 1976.

Another reason sequential port EFI is more desirable than a carb for these engines.

Bob

[whittlebeast]

The learning curve is fairly steep compared to what the Harley world is used to but you will not believe how powerful a Squirt is.

Andy

[FLTRI]

The learning curve is fairly steep compared to what the Harley world is used to but you will not believe how powerful a Squirt is.

Andy

Wait till you get a chance to work with what's coming down the pipe. Beta testing has been very promising for getting timing effectively handled as well as some smarter tuning strategies.
I love working with the Delphi system for its smarts and knowledge base out there.
Way cool stuff for sure!!!
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Wait till you get a chance to work with what's coming down the pipe. Beta testing has been very promising for getting timing effectively handled as well as some smarter tuning strategies.
I love working with the Delphi system for its smarts and knowledge base out there.
Way cool stuff for sure!!!
Bob

I have a Sporty.  Almost none of the new stuff ever applies.  Sportys even have some fundamental busts in the code that has never been addressed.  Most of the tuning logic we are forced to do is driven around work-arounds.

The Squirt direction may allow the mid 2000s and later EFI bike builders a true option.  Big power (like 2 hp/CI) is just not a problem provided the motor can be built to take the loads

I have no idea if the fuel pumps will keep up but.....  The fuel tank most likely will starve once we get the acceleration rates up to something reasonable.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Oh, I thought you had experience with big twins as well.
Then, hopefully you will get a chance to work with a big twin to see the upcoming way cool stuff!
Bob

[1stop]

Any progress made with mega squirt system. Interested in using for boost application. Ran across this tread searching for mega squirt info. Thanks