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[mrbhd]

I have been reading all the posts about lifter issues,  It appears that most of these issues seem to occur post 2009.  Are the lifters suspect in the 2007 and/or 2008 model years as well?  I am well aware of all of the other issues in these years,  just trying to obtain info on the lifters.  I am pretty sure that these were the "B" lifters in 2007 and 2008. Please feel free to correct me if I am in error!  Thanks Guys, Any help is appreciated!!

[grc]

The "B" lifters were used up until some time in 2011 (2012 model year), when Harley went to the "C" (C for cheap crap) lifters.  The "C" lifters had a much worse record for leaking down and taking a long time to pump back up after sitting overnight, among other things.  But I don't know that they were any worse than the "B" lifters when it came to roller failures.  I know we have several people on the site with 2007 - 2011 CVO's that experienced lifter roller failures, and those would have definitely been the "B" version.

I've been convinced for a long time that the problem was exacerbated by the cam timing and ramp speeds as well as the heavy valves, ridiculous valve spring pressures, and lousy valve guides of the 110 engine.  Needle bearings like those used for the lifter rollers do not tolerate pounding, and the factory setup for the 110 leads to such pounding.  I'd be inclined to inspect and replace lifters on any high mileage 110 regardless of which lifter was installed at the factory.

JMHO - Jerry

[ultrafxr]

The "B" lifters were used up until some time in 2011 (2012 model year), when Harley went to the "C" (C for cheap crap) lifters.  The "C" lifters had a much worse record for leaking down and taking a long time to pump back up after sitting overnight, among other things.  But I don't know that they were any worse than the "B" lifters when it came to roller failures.  I know we have several people on the site with 2007 - 2011 CVO's that experienced lifter roller failures, and those would have definitely been the "B" version.

I've been convinced for a long time that the problem was exacerbated by the cam timing and ramp speeds as well as the heavy valves, ridiculous valve spring pressures, and lousy valve guides of the 110 engine.  Needle bearings like those used for the lifter rollers do not tolerate pounding, and the factory setup for the 110 leads to such pounding.  I'd be inclined to inspect and replace lifters on any high mileage 110 regardless of which lifter was installed at the factory.

JMHO - Jerry

I'm Jerry, agreeing with Jerry (grc)  .

I have discussed this with several techs at different dealerships and am convinced that the 110 setup pounds the living daylights out of the valve train.  The original engine in my '07 bit the dust at about 24k due to valve guide failure.  The replacement engine was in Nov 2007 so it was undoubtedly a 'B' lifter  lasted 60k before total failure due to lifter and inner cam bearing self destruction.  The engine in my '12 which had the 'C' lifter lasted only 22k before total failure due to lifter self destruction.

I just put S&S premium lifters in my '07 - its new 3rd motor has 8k on it now.  I'd gladly spend the bucks to do the same on my '12 but it is under ESP and I'd hate to have some / any problem they could deny due to non factory lifters.  So I guess I'll just run it hoping it did get the latest (and greatest?) version of the '13 SE lifter.  I guess time will tell.

[sadunbar]

The "B" lifters were used up until some time in 2011 (2012 model year), when Harley went to the "C" (C for cheap crap) lifters.  The "C" lifters had a much worse record for leaking down and taking a long time to pump back up after sitting overnight, among other things.  But I don't know that they were any worse than the "B" lifters when it came to roller failures.  I know we have several people on the site with 2007 - 2011 CVO's that experienced lifter roller failures, and those would have definitely been the "B" version.

I've been convinced for a long time that the problem was exacerbated by the cam timing and ramp speeds as well as the heavy valves, ridiculous valve spring pressures, and lousy valve guides of the 110 engine.  Needle bearings like those used for the lifter rollers do not tolerate pounding, and the factory setup for the 110 leads to such pounding.  I'd be inclined to inspect and replace lifters on any high mileage 110 regardless of which lifter was installed at the factory.

JMHO - Jerry

While some lifters are of better design and of higher quality (hence some brands may last longer), I agree with Jerry's assertion that the root cause of lifter failures in 110 motors lies more with the design and component choices of the 2007/up motor than the lifters themselves.  Lifter life was largely a non issue prior to the 2007 110 motor.  The very same lifters that had virtually no failures prior to 2007, suffer frequent failures in post 2007 motors.  In addition to all the issues listed by Jerry, I'd ad the change from spring tensioned cam tensioners to hydraulic tensioned cam tensioners (causing increased aeration) as a factor.  For owners to have to spend money and effort to continually replace lifters (for seven years now) as a preventative measure is almost criminal.

[mrbhd]

Thanks to all for the replies.   Looks like I will be changing lifters at 25K to S&S.  You guys and this site are the best!!!

[rheiner]

I have read here about S&S premium lifters. Don't really hear much about the Wood Performance Knight Prowler Directional Roller Lifters. Any thoughts and experiences?

[hrdtail78]

The other day I took some C lifters and S&S no limiter lifters apart.  They looked the same to me.  ??

[sadunbar]

The other day I took some C lifters and S&S no limiter lifters apart.  They looked the same to me.  ??

Visually the same?  Or visually, dimensionally, materials and hardness the same? 

The C lifters were noted for extreme radial looseness of the roller/roller bearings, even when new.  And the C lifter had the shortest shelf life of any lifter Harley ever offered.  I believe they were only OEM for just one model year.

Is the S&S lifter you used for comparison the S&S Premium Lifter - S&S p/n 330-0175?   Just curious...

[grc]

I have read here about S&S premium lifters. Don't really hear much about the Wood Performance Knight Prowler Directional Roller Lifters. Any thoughts and experiences?

I had two sets a couple years ago.  The first set was immediately removed and sent back because it took about five minutes or more to get them to pump up and quiet down somewhat (they were never actually quiet), and they would leak down almost immediately after shutting the engine down.  Pure crap.  The replacement set would not fit properly in the engine (the anti-rotation pins could not be installed).  The company claimed (on a typed piece of paper in the box) this was an issue due to a problem from Harley when they machined the cases, and that the customers who had that problem should file the flats on the lifters until the pins would fit.  That was when I sent that set back in disgust and went back to a set of "B" lifters.  A defective product is one thing, but a company that lies about their junk and tries to blame it on the Harley cases (the same cases that worked just fine with the stock lifters, the first set of Wood lifters, and the set of Harley lifters in the engine right now) when the problem really was they had a batch of improperly machined lifters that they sold anyway, is a company I won't endorse or do business with in the future. 

Jerry

[hrdtail78]

Visually the same.  They were customer's take outs.  The cup and wire clip is why I took it apart.

I'll check the part number tomorrow.

[Lever]

there are folks that swear by them and there are folks that hate them ...I myself have S&S HLT lifters
in my bike  would I try woods sure if the opportunity  came around  I would have no problems  using his lifter's after all I do have his cam's in my ride

[tennisman]

I have been reading all the posts about lifter issues,  It appears that most of these issues seem to occur post 2009.  Are the lifters suspect in the 2007 and/or 2008 model years as well?  I am well aware of all of the other issues in these years,  just trying to obtain info on the lifters.  I am pretty sure that these were the "B" lifters in 2007 and 2008. Please feel free to correct me if I am in error!  Thanks Guys, Any help is appreciated!!

I have 103,000 miles on my 08 Ultra CVO - here is my lifter story:
At 40,371 miles, I had to replace the lifters.  P/N 18538-99B went in Nov, 2010.  Done in warranty.
At 101,361 miles, I had to replace the lifters. -99C lifters went in Jan, 2014; also replaced cams with same SE255, oil pump, and chain tensioners.  Work was done at no charge by dealer.  Am now at 103,000+, very quiet motor so far.
Note I still have the original lifter blocks.

[mcflyer]

My experience with lifters hasn't been good. My 07 110 had a roller failure of a Fueling lifter in the first 50 miles. My 08 SE had a stock roller failure at 18000 miles. I replaced the stock lifter with another and that lasted for another 12000 miles. Interestingly the stock lifter that failed was not in the same postion so I ruled out oil flow/pressure issues.  The replacement Fueling lifter lasted for 7000 miles before I sold the bike and never heard from the new owner again.  After the second stock lifter failed I went the the screaming eagle lifters and have gone 15000 miles with out a problem. This long cold winter gave me a chance to remove the SE lifters and inspect them.  They were perfect and I reused them. What to make of this? I hear horror stories about Twin Cam lifters and cams all the time. Mater of fact the dealer told me the 14"s now come with SE lifters in them from the factory! If that's true then Harley has realized they have an issue and are trying to do something about it. Will they be the ultimate answer? I don't claim to know but since no brand of lifter seems immune from failure then it must be due to poor engine design.  I agree that these motors run such heavy valves that they require huge springs run at unbelievable pressures to keep things in control. everything in the valve train is completely backwards to what I been taught. Steel push rods are strong but incredibly heavy. Spring rates that are off the wall and rocker arms that gouge the valve stems can't help valve train durability. The aftermarket seems to have alot of replacement parts for TC valve trains issues. Are they trying to overcome a poor design or inferior components?

[Snakebyte]

I have 103,000 miles on my 08 Ultra CVO - here is my lifter story:
At 40,371 miles, I had to replace the lifters.  P/N 18538-99B went in Nov, 2010.  Done in warranty.
At 101,361 miles, I had to replace the lifters. -99C lifters went in Jan, 2014; also replaced cams with same SE255, oil pump, and chain tensioners.  Work was done at no charge by dealer.  Am now at 103,000+, very quiet motor so far.
Note I still have the original lifter blocks.

These don't have lifter blocks, they use the engine case. This is one design of many I do not like about the twin cam.

[hrdtail78]

Part number for S&S lifter. 33-5350

[Twolanerider]

My experience with lifters hasn't been good. My 07 110 had a roller failure of a Fueling lifter in the first 50 miles.

Were your Feuling failures with the their "Race" lifter or the less expensive HP+ version?

[sadunbar]

Part number for S&S lifter. 33-5350

These are the previous design S&S lifters, prior to the current S&S Premium lifter (p/n 330-0175) .  The basic design of this lifter was the same as the previous MOCO C lifter, although the manufacturing tolerances were significantly different, particularly in the area of the roller/axle components.

[DCC]

I have 103,000 miles on my 08 Ultra CVO - here is my lifter story:
At 40,371 miles, I had to replace the lifters.  P/N 18538-99B went in Nov, 2010.  Done in warranty.
At 101,361 miles, I had to replace the lifters. -99C lifters went in Jan, 2014; also replaced cams with same SE255, oil pump, and chain tensioners.  Work was done at no charge by dealer.  Am now at 103,000+, very quiet motor so far.
Note I still have the original lifter blocks.

Tennisman - I'm curious, what caused you change your lifters.  If I did the math right, you got 40,000+ miles on the first set of "B" lifters, and around 61,000 miles out of the 2nd set of "B" lifters and are currently using the "C" version.  Did you have any tell-tale signs?  I'm debating what to do as I've got just over 41,000 miles on my 08, but so far, all is good.  But, I don't want anything catastrophic to happen either.  If I do change, I'm either going with S&S or the new Harley SE version (18572-13).  I'll also do the inner cam bearings then as well.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

My experience with lifters hasn't been good. My 07 110 had a roller failure of a Fueling lifter in the first 50 miles. My 08 SE had a stock roller failure at 18000 miles. I replaced the stock lifter with another and that lasted for another 12000 miles. Interestingly the stock lifter that failed was not in the same postion so I ruled out oil flow/pressure issues.  The replacement Fueling lifter lasted for 7000 miles before I sold the bike and never heard from the new owner again.  After the second stock lifter failed I went the the screaming eagle lifters and have gone 15000 miles with out a problem. This long cold winter gave me a chance to remove the SE lifters and inspect them.  They were perfect and I reused them. What to make of this? I hear horror stories about Twin Cam lifters and cams all the time. Mater of fact the dealer told me the 14"s now come with SE lifters in them from the factory! If that's true then Harley has realized they have an issue and are trying to do something about it. Will they be the ultimate answer? I don't claim to know but since no brand of lifter seems immune from failure then it must be due to poor engine design.  I agree that these motors run such heavy valves that they require huge springs run at unbelievable pressures to keep things in control. everything in the valve train is completely backwards to what I been taught. Steel push rods are strong but incredibly heavy. Spring rates that are off the wall and rocker arms that gouge the valve stems can't help valve train durability. The aftermarket seems to have alot of replacement parts for TC valve trains issues. Are they trying to overcome a poor design or inferior components?

When you say failed it lost metal or just started to make noise??  If there where parts loose inside was the oil pan ever pulled and cleaned??  Its a question not implying blame .   Since we do offer a warranty on our own lifters its more so just info for us.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Last word in lifters is S&S.
Enough said.

[ultrafxr]

Last word in lifters is S&S.
Enough said.

What he said.


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[mcflyer]

The Fueling that failed was a RACE lifter.

[Twolanerider]

The Fueling that failed was a RACE lifter.

Thanks.  I know of a few of their Race lifter that has failed.  Inversely I've never had a failure in one of their far less expensive standard HP+ lifters. 

[mcflyer]

To Fueling's credit they made good for the lifters (Rightfully so for 50 miles). The roller was seized solid and then started screeching which of course took out the cam.  The oil pan was pulled, the cam case cleaned out and the oil cooler was removed. I took the cooler to work and flushed it out which I'm told nobody does.  I found some metal in the oil cooler so I hope I averted a repeat failure by doing it. As I said I never had another issue in the time I owned the bike and the dealer that services it said that he hasn't had any problems with it.

[DCC]

So I bit the bullet and decided it was time to open the cam chest and check things out.  My 08 CVO has always had some valve train noise since day one and other than that, I absolutely love this bike.  41000 miles on the clock.  I've road a lot of newer frame bikes and am just not happy with the newer suspension.  So, I just completed installing new lifters, inner cam bearings, and I also installed the newer rocker housings (my original rocker housings were clearanced back when, but still were suspect).  I am happy to report that I no longer have any of the valve train noise.  Well, let's say it's more like sewing machine noise if any.  I can't believe how much better my engine sounds.  I am Sooooo glad I made the decision to do this as I intend to get many more happy miles from this bike.  Upon inspection of my original lifters, cams, and inner cam bearings, I did not see any evidence of unusual wear and tear.  Tensioners looked good as well.

[Twolanerider]

So I bit the bullet and decided it was time to open the cam chest and check things out.  My 08 CVO has always had some valve train noise since day one and other than that, I absolutely love this bike.  41000 miles on the clock.  I've road a lot of newer frame bikes and am just not happy with the newer suspension.  So, I just completed installing new lifters, inner cam bearings, and I also installed the newer rocker housings (my original rocker housings were clearanced back when, but still were suspect).  I am happy to report that I no longer have any of the valve train noise.  Well, let's say it's more like sewing machine noise if any.  I can't believe how much better my engine sounds.  I am Sooooo glad I made the decision to do this as I intend to get many more happy miles from this bike.  Upon inspection of my original lifters, cams, and inner cam bearings, I did not see any evidence of unusual wear and tear.  Tensioners looked good as well.

At 40k miles you didn't replaced the tensioners while you there?  That's one of those "just because I'm there" things for me.

[DCC]

They basically didn't show much wear.  Good for at least another 40K.

[Jswerve]

So I bit the bullet and decided it was time to open the cam chest and check things out.  My 08 CVO has always had some valve train noise since day one and other than that, I absolutely love this bike.  41000 miles on the clock.  I've road a lot of newer frame bikes and am just not happy with the newer suspension.  So, I just completed installing new lifters, inner cam bearings, and I also installed the newer rocker housings (my original rocker housings were clearanced back when, but still were suspect).  I am happy to report that I no longer have any of the valve train noise.  Well, let's say it's more like sewing machine noise if any.  I can't believe how much better my engine sounds.  I am Sooooo glad I made the decision to do this as I intend to get many more happy miles from this bike.  Upon inspection of my original lifters, cams, and inner cam bearings, I did not see any evidence of unusual wear and tear.  Tensioners looked good as well.

What lifters did you go with? I have 13.5k on my bike and it's in the shop getting Dragos 580 cam and S&S lifters.

[mcflyer]

I used the latest Screaming Eagle lifter. Knowing Harley they are probably made by some outside company ?

[Jswerve]

I used the latest Screaming Eagle lifter. Knowing Harley they are probably made by some outside company ?

According to Frank they are made in Mexico and the S&S premiums are made in the USA which is what prompted me to go with the S&S along with the fact that Harley can't seem to put a decent set of lifters together for the 110 lol.

[DCC]

What lifters did you go with? I have 13.5k on my bike and it's in the shop getting Dragos 580 cam and S&S lifters.

I kept it Harley. 18572-13 lifters.

[sadunbar]

According to Frank they are made in Mexico and the S&S premiums are made in the USA which is what prompted me to go with the S&S along with the fact that Harley can't seem to put a decent set of lifters together for the 110 lol.

The MOCO short lived "C" lifters were made in Mexico.  The current SE Lifters are made in the USA...

[Jswerve]

The MOCO short lived "C" lifters were made in Mexico.  The current SE Lifters are made in the USA...

The C lifters were in my motor unfortunately...

[Twolanerider]

The MOCO short lived "C" lifters were made in Mexico.  The current SE Lifters are made in the USA...

And, in toto, in Harley's case that is oh so reassuring.

[Jswerve]

And, in toto, in Harley's case that is oh so reassuring.

I didn't want to pull Harley lifters and replace with Harley lifters. Different strokes for different folks. Riding season is upon us!

[mcflyer]

I didnt know where they were made nor if it makes any difference.  I do know, I work for an american car company and we have lots of quality control issues with our products made south of the border.  The thing that scares me is that Harley has a history of what we call band-aid engineering, so I wonder if they really targeted lifter quality or just said "Lets just add 10K miles to our lifter longevity and call it a day"? As they say "time will tell".

[Jswerve]

I didnt know where they were made nor if it makes any difference.  I do know, I work for an american car company and we have lots of quality control issues with our products made south of the border.  The thing that scares me is that Harley has a history of what we call band-aid engineering, so I wonder if they really targeted lifter quality or just said "Lets just add 10K miles to our lifter longevity and call it a day"? As they say "time will tell".

That's basically the way I look at it. The bottom line (For ME) is that I just don't trust Harley which is why I went with S & S and also why I have an independent doing the motor work lol. I stopped in Dubuque HD on the way home and they asked what was in the trailer. I said nothing I just dropped my bike off to get some cams and lifters and a tune done at Dragos, that's when the dirty looks and frowns started coming my way! 

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

The entire reason we have our own lifters now. I know what we have where its made the testing that has been done. Its that simple. I know for a fact that some  lifters that have made in USA are mostly made south of the border, then some work done in the US ..

Ours I know are 100% made in USA!!!!  What ever you do swap out the made in mexico lifters. 

[Jswerve]

The entire reason we have our own lifters now. I know what we have where its made the testing that has been done. Its that simple. I know for a fact that some  lifters that have made in USA are mostly made south of the border, then some work done in the US ..

Ours I know are 100% made in USA!!!!  What ever you do swap out the made in mexico lifters.

        

[Dietea]

I went Wood lifters. So far good experiences, silent.

[Jswerve]

I went Wood lifters. So far good experiences, silent.

Good to know. The more options the better!

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