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CVO Technical => Intake/Exhaust/ECM => Topic started by: Layin the Pipe on February 18, 2013, 01:42:39 PM
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I've been talking to a shop in Wyoming about putting on V/H pipes and a Thundermax Tuner for the auto tune feature. The guy that own the shop is telling me that he prefers using the screaming eagle tuner and they will build a custom map for it.
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I am not the expert but after all of my research, It appears the Power Commander V and the Power Vision have the highest reviews. My Harley Dealer prefers the Power Commander V. The "race tuners" allow you to tune pass the 5000-5500rpms and get around the rev limiter programming. It is my understanding that if a "race tuner" is put on the bike it automatically voids any warranty. I ended up buying the Power Vision and can hopefully tell you all about next week if my bike arrives this week.
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What's the price for that perfect map? Not sure what a "race tuner" is, but every dealer I've ever asked said that they will honor the warranty with just pipes and a tuner.
Often, a canned map from a good vendor like Fullsac and Metal Dragon will give you exactly what you're looking for.
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I have the Super Tuner S.E. PRO that's what the box says :nixweiss:
That is what my tuner wanted and prefers ;) Since I don't do my own tuning,He's the BOSS lol :huepfenlol2:
Always get what the tuner request and everything should go good.
I have had no problems with the tune or the product :2vrolijk_21:
I was told it is the BEST :nixweiss: Im sure there are plenty of opinions :)
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I am not the expert but after all of my research, It appears the Power Commander V and the Power Vision have the highest reviews. My Harley Dealer prefers the Power Commander V. The "race tuners" allow you to tune pass the 5000-5500rpms and get around the rev limiter programming. It is my understanding that if a "race tuner" is put on the bike it automatically voids any warranty. I ended up buying the Power Vision and can hopefully tell you all about next week if my bike arrives this week.
Just to be clear...the race tuner and the power vision accomplish the same thing...changing the map that the bike runs on. If the dealer voids the warranty when using the race tuner, then he should also with the power vision--unless he wants to sell you that one. Either way....find a tuner that you trust and ask him what product he uses to tune with and go with that.
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Not sure I the whole "voids the warranty" from dealers. I can't speak for the SERT, but with the PV, I have my original, HD factory tune saved in position 6. If for some reason I experience an engine or emission issue, I simply load the stock tune in and take it to the dealer....
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if any bike under warranty gets to the dealer with mod tune, mod intake, mod exhaust or any combination or ANY mech mods - that are not street legal mods - they can, if they wish, void the warranty on the engine itself, and possibly the whole drivetrain.
there are two conflicting views and sets of laws. one says that if you "tamper" its illegal and you can be fined and the bike can no longer be ridden on the road - the other point of view is that under the warranty laws they have to prove your mod did the damage.
in actual practice you have to prove your mod DID NOT do the damage. [you know hire lawers etc] the installing dealer may honor the warranty [ie provide a dealer warranty] but if it fails 6 states away you will be paying the bill. every so often some dealer or shop gets fined - and it sort of flows down to the owners via zero warranty coverage. and last if you have a extended warranty - that is actually a insurance policy where you agree to pay x bux and ride it STONE STOCK during the period of the contract and they agree to fix anything that fails during the contract time.
the last is the one that is most likely to ruin your day. if you have a extended and you want a blown engine covered you need to get it to the dealer with stock pipes, stock mufflers, stock air cleaner & stock tune - or its often game over depending on how much lying to the warranty rep the dealer is willing to do.
tts and the new pv allow returning the ecm to stock - very very cool - but keep all the rest and return that to stock or its possibly a waste of time. ssert, street tuner, tts are the least likely to cause actual problems. the old power commanders & similar add on units cause actual problems at times.
the real deal - do what you want - just dont think for a instant that there is any real warranty coverage once you start messing with the engine, then you wont be disappointed or upset. performance mods are not for those who care about a warranty at all. the two thought processes are basically mutually exclusive - stock and warranty - hot rod and no warranty. there IS some grey area in the middle but its grey - you wont know what you can get your dealer to actually do until they do or dont do something - whatever the salesman says and two bits will get you a cheap cup of coffee.
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Just to be clear...the race tuner and the power vision accomplish the same thing...changing the map that the bike runs on. If the dealer voids the warranty when using the race tuner, then he should also with the power vision--unless he wants to sell you that one. Either way....find a tuner that you trust and ask him what product he uses to tune with and go with that.
From what I understand and I only know what I heard, is that there are programmable race tuners that allow you to tune past the 5500 rpm limit. Harley has tags on these specific tuners if they are used and state that it will void warranties. The Power vision will not modify the base ECM to tune past the 5500 rpm limit. I am only repeating what I heard at a performance seminar I attended at my dealer that addressed this issue.
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Having used power vision and tts both I know for a fact they will tune past 5500. As MJB said they all do the same thing with a different name on the box. Just because Harley markets theirs as a "race tuner" doesn't mean it's strictly for racing. If your tuner says he's best with the pro tuner go with it and if he's good you won't regret it.
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I've been talking to a shop in Wyoming about putting on V/H pipes and a Thundermax Tuner for the auto tune feature. The guy that own the shop is telling me that he prefers using the screaming eagle tuner and they will build a custom map for it. They build race bikes for Hiro Koiso racing and he likes building the perfect map instead of using autotune. Any thoughts here?
I had the latest version SERT done by the dealer and have been well satisfied.Since I had it done by them, Warranty is supose to be still good. They also raised my rpm to 6200 which I really like. 98.6 hp and 97.7 trq and a crisp throttle .
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I am presently choosing a tuner for my FLSTSE3, would it be right to assume that with the comments listed that all tuners void the HD warranty?
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I am presently choosing a tuner for my FLSTSE3, would it be right to assume that with the comments listed that all tuners void the HD warranty?
The simple answer is yes, modifications to the stock engine management system by whatever means and using whatever device and software package can void your emission and powertrain warranty. And it's not up to the dealer to make that determination, although they can heavily influence any warranty decision by how they talk to H-D. The warranty is from H-D, not the dealer. So anything the local dealer tells you about "if you have us do it we won't void the warranty" is just BS, they don't have that authority (unless they plan to pay for repairs out of their own pockets, which I doubt). Anyone who agrees to let a dealer do mods based on such a BS statement needs to get the dealer principle, not the hired help, to put it in writing to make it legally enforceable. Once again, it's highly unlikely they will do that, but if you insist it sure will cut through all the BS pretty quickly.
If warranty is really that important to anyone, they need to think about this sort of thing before they let their dealership sell them a bunch of mods along with the BS. A simple pipe and tune is usually a safe bet, but all bets are off when you let them sell you any internal mods. And with all the reports over the past couple years of both Harley and the ESP folks denying warranty or ESP coverage due to mods, they obviously aren't looking the other way as much as they have in the past.
If someone really wants to avoid the possible hassle, then do not use an SEPST but instead use a TTS or PV that allows you to reinstall the stock map (assuming you followed directions and saved it) before taking the bike in for service or repairs. The SEPST doesn't offer that capability, and as soon as the dealership hooks the bike up to their computer the fact you have an unauthorized calibration installed will be recorded and Harley has access to that information.
Jerry
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The simple answer is yes, modifications to the stock engine management system by whatever means and using whatever device and software package can void your emission and powertrain warranty. And it's not up to the dealer to make that determination, although they can heavily influence any warranty decision by how they talk to H-D. The warranty is from H-D, not the dealer. So anything the local dealer tells you about "if you have us do it we won't void the warranty" is just BS, they don't have that authority (unless they plan to pay for repairs out of their own pockets, which I doubt). Anyone who agrees to let a dealer do mods based on such a BS statement needs to get the dealer principle, not the hired help, to put it in writing to make it legally enforceable. Once again, it's highly unlikely they will do that, but if you insist it sure will cut through all the BS pretty quickly.
If warranty is really that important to anyone, they need to think about this sort of thing before they let their dealership sell them a bunch of mods along with the BS. A simple pipe and tune is usually a safe bet, but all bets are off when you let them sell you any internal mods. And with all the reports over the past couple years of both Harley and the ESP folks denying warranty or ESP coverage due to mods, they obviously aren't looking the other way as much as they have in the past.
If someone really wants to avoid the possible hassle, then do not use an SEPST but instead use a TTS or PV that allows you to reinstall the stock map (assuming you followed directions and saved it) before taking the bike in for service or repairs. The SEPST doesn't offer that capability, and as soon as the dealership hooks the bike up to their computer the fact you have an unauthorized calibration installed will be recorded and Harley has access to that information.
Jerry
Thanks Jerry,
You couldn't be Clearer, and your bang on with the mechanics saying its no problem!
Still cant help myself!
Only changing the exhaust, breather, adding a oil cooler and tuner for now, the rest of the mods will be purely cosmetic,
Is their much difference in the TTS and the SEPST? he dealer just keeps pushing the SEPST!
Thanks again for your time,
Charlie
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From what I understand and I only know what I heard, is that there are programmable race tuners that allow you to tune past the 5500 rpm limit. Harley has tags on these specific tuners if they are used and state that it will void warranties. The Power vision will not modify the base ECM to tune past the 5500 rpm limit. I am only repeating what I heard at a performance seminar I attended at my dealer that addressed this issue.
not true. there are 2 harley tuners. one is street legal. the other is not. they will both extend your rev limit beyond 5500, though the pro super tuner will give you much more tuning options, while the other will only allow you to stay with the lean air/fuel ratio... (but compensate for pipes and ac)
Is their much difference in the TTS and the SEPST? he dealer just keeps pushing the SEPST!
Thanks again for your time,
Charlie
the dealer is pushing the sepst because it is a harley product. the tts used to be a harley product, though that was a couple software iterations ago, and then it was called the sert. the super tuner is a fine product, if that is what the tuner is familiar with. but be aware, like was said earlier, it does technically void your warranty coverage.
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not true. there are 2 harley tuners. one is street legal. the other is not. they will both extend your rev limit beyond 5500, though the pro super tuner will give you much more tuning options, while the other will only allow you to stay with the lean air/fuel ratio... (but compensate for pipes and ac)
the dealer is pushing the sepst because it is a harley product. the tts used to be a harley product, though that was a couple software iterations ago, and then it was called the sert. the super tuner is a fine product, if that is what the tuner is familiar with. but be aware, like was said earlier, it does technically void your warranty coverage.
Thanks for making that a little clearer. Lot of different takes on this subject :huepfenjump3:
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if all you are doing is pipe and air cleaner - you can use the hd street legal tuner - and it will v=tune to a point - and that wont void your warranty IF its done at delivery.
its part of the fine print crap. you can do any of the "street legal" mods prior to delivery and it will be covered under both the mfg warranty and the esp.
absolutely everything else you do will void the mfg warranty and the esp warranty. to make a finer point you can do external street legal mods with the street tuner after delivery and be ok - basically a air cleaner can be installed later.
to
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Thanks Jerry,
You couldn't be Clearer, and your bang on with the mechanics saying its no problem!
Still cant help myself!
Only changing the exhaust, breather, adding a oil cooler and tuner for now, the rest of the mods will be purely cosmetic,
Is their much difference in the TTS and the SEPST? he dealer just keeps pushing the SEPST!
Thanks again for your time,
Charlie
There are several differences, but I'm not the expert. Steve George of Fullsac or Steve Cole of TTS could list all the differences for you, but I'll just offer up a couple I'm aware of. First, as I stated previously, is the fact that with the TTS you can save the original calibration (map) and reinstall it whenever you take your bike in for service or warranty repairs. You can't do that with the SEPST. Second, the TTS allows you to adjust several parameters that aren't adjustable with the SEPST. That may or may not be a big deal, it all depends on whether or not you would ever have need to tweak those particular parameters.
I assume your guy is pushing the SEPST because he has a vested interest in selling those. Anyone who can tune with a SEPST can tune with a TTS.
Jerry
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With my '08 SE Dyna, I had a PC, V&H Pro pipe. Lots of issues. Bearings, lifters and clutch issue...about $3000 of work and ESP never questioned it.....I was actually shocked!!
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The HD SCREAMIN EAGLE PRO SUPER TUNER has "SMART TUNE" if you buy the software and cables you can tune the bike yourself if you have a lap top. I have a 2012 SEULTRA that I used it on. It works and works well. HD has a list of base maps that you need to pick 1 from. Download it to your ecm, set the tuner to smart tune and unhook the cables for the computer side of the bung and go riding. Come back after a nice little ride and hook back up to your computer and look at the cells. The cells in blue will need to be adjusted and then you are finished. I was really surprised how easy it was. I did have help from Axil though. He talked me into it and couldn't be more happier. Best thing is when I do some motor work it will be easy to retune!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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The HD SCREAMIN EAGLE PRO SUPER TUNER has "SMART TUNE" if you buy the software and cables you can tune the bike yourself if you have a lap top. I have a 2012 SEULTRA that I used it on. It works and works well. HD has a list of base maps that you need to pick 1 from. Download it to your ecm, set the tuner to smart tune and unhook the cables for the computer side of the bung and go riding. Come back after a nice little ride and hook back up to your computer and look at the cells. The cells in blue will need to be adjusted and then you are finished. I was really surprised how easy it was. I did have help from Axil though. He talked me into it and couldn't be more happier. Best thing is when I do some motor work it will be easy to retune!!!!
Be Safe
Thanks for posting that info. That really helps me on mine also. This is a great site. THANKS D C
THE DAWG
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The HD SCREAMIN EAGLE PRO SUPER TUNER has "SMART TUNE" if you buy the software and cables you can tune the bike yourself if you have a lap top. I have a 2012 SEULTRA that I used it on. It works and works well. HD has a list of base maps that you need to pick 1 from. Download it to your ecm, set the tuner to smart tune and unhook the cables for the computer side of the bung and go riding. Come back after a nice little ride and hook back up to your computer and look at the cells. The cells in blue will need to be adjusted and then you are finished. I was really surprised how easy it was. I did have help from Axil though. He talked me into it and couldn't be more happier. Best thing is when I do some motor work it will be easy to retune!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
Thanks,
Easy to understand explanation,
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I am presently choosing a tuner for my FLSTSE3, would it be right to assume that with the comments listed that all tuners void the HD warranty?
Hi Charlie,
it's not just that easy ;)
Depends a lot to your national legislation too. The US for instance have an entirely different legal system of factory warranties and compulsory factory liabilities than the EC has. I don't have any idea about your local consumer laws, so you should contact a good attorney if you really want to know in detail.
In the EC whatever H-D writes into their factory warranty provisions they are liable during the first two years for any malfunction of any part - or software - H-D or any of their licensed dealers sells to a consumer and if they claim an unauthorized manipulation on your side to be the cause of such malfunction or damage they have to provide full proof for it. So in EC as long as you buy your tuning parts form H-D and combine them according to their recommendations you are on a comparatively safe side as labeling something as a "racing part" does not affect their compulsory liability under EC consumer laws. So check your national legislation.
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Hi Charlie,
it's not just that easy ;)
Depends a lot to your national legislation too. The US for instance have an entirely different legal system of factory warranties and compulsory factory liabilities than the EC has. I don't have any idea about your local consumer laws, so you should contact a good attorney if you really want to know in detail.
In the EC whatever H-D writes into their factory warranty provisions they are liable during the first two years for any malfunction of any part - or software - H-D or any of their licensed dealers sells to a consumer and if they claim an unauthorized manipulation on your side to be the cause of such malfunction or damage they have to provide full proof for it. So in EC as long as you buy your tuning parts form H-D and combine them according to their recommendations you are on a comparatively safe side as labeling something as a "racing part" does not affect their compulsory liability under EC consumer laws. So check your national legislation.
Hi Kraut,
Thanks for the input,
Here in Dubai we don't really have any consumer laws you could depend on! they just about do whatever they want!! friends back in the UK say its no problem and the warranty still stands within the custom law format,
It works both ways over here! we have pluses and minuses! we can modify more or less what we want to and still be road legal! we can wear any helmet we want (at our own risk!) but try and challenge a warranty and you have no chance!
Cheers, Charlie
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that's pretty much what I had feared to learn from you ::)
Perhaps you may take a hostage?
:huepfenjump3:
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that's pretty much what I had feared to learn from you ::)
Perhaps you may take a hostage?
:huepfenjump3:
Cant say its never crossed my mind!!! ;)