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Author Topic: 40274-08A Compensator  (Read 15648 times)

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SBB

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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2011, 10:40:04 PM »



Prior to 2007 you could run just about anything for lubrication in the Big Twin primary housing. Based on the appearance of recent failed components, with the burnt lubricant, metal transfer and extreme wear, together with what we know about the 2007 and later powertrain, with regard to lubrication, things seem to have changed significantly.

djkak
I use this in the primary on the 11.5 SEUC.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524448768339&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302290915&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302290915&bmUID=1301609690324&bmLocale=en_US

SBB
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 10:45:44 PM by SBB »
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kraut

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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2011, 05:32:26 AM »

does that mean if one compensator failed it's most likely it's replacement with the same bike and riing style will fail too, be it the SE or the regular version?
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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2011, 02:59:54 PM »

does that mean if one compensator failed it's most likely it's replacement with the same bike and riing style will fail too, be it the SE or the regular version?

Potentially, yes...but with different degrees of failure. 

The original "non SE" compensator simply is not strong enough for the application.  It does not provide the necessary level of protection to your drivetrain.  It can contribute to the failure of other components, such as your starter. 

The "SE" compensator is strong enough for the application and provides adequate protection to your drivetrain, but experiences a higher than desired rate of wear due to insufficient lubrication.  The resulting excessive wear is not likely to result in collateral damage to other components.
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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2011, 03:47:53 PM »

So the elephant in the room is...what type/brand/whatever lubrication is necessary to avoid premature failure of this component, since failure of the newer style seems to be directly related to inadequate lubrication?  And the second point would be...would it be "better" to change the primary fluid more often than 10K, like at 5K, when you change the crankcase oil?
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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2011, 05:29:42 PM »

I'm sure its to often, but I do mine about every 5.
For what the fluid costs, and the small amount of time it takes, I just don't care, ya know.
It's like a 5 dollar oil change, can't hurt!   (I HOPE)  HAHA
Big Dave

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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2011, 05:49:26 PM »

what type/brand/whatever lubrication is necessary to avoid premature failure of this component, since failure of the newer style seems to be directly related to inadequate lubrication? 

I use this in the primary on the 11.5 SEUC.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524448768339&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302290915&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302290915&bmUID=1301609690324&bmLocale=en_US
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Terry

I run Redline in the 01, 03 and did in the 05.
But not in the 2011.5, it get's the Formula Plus.

 ;)

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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2011, 06:59:57 PM »


But not in the 2011.5, it get's the Formula Plus.

 ;)


[/quote]
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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2011, 07:21:48 PM »

does that mean if one compensator failed it's most likely it's replacement with the same bike and riing style will fail too, be it the SE or the regular version?

Relative to this discussion, the simple answer is yes, I believe the replacement assembly will fail prematurely without a change to the lubricant’s properties.

With any manufacturing process there will be some variation in the finished product, be it a sprocket shaft extension or a bottle of lubricant, and duplicating field conditions would be subjective at best. To understate the challenge, the ability to reasonably predict when the replacement will fail would be tough.

I do believe that the difference between premature failure and normal service life is broad enough that making this distinction wouldn’t be difficult. The failure of a lubricant to prevent metal on metal contact also leaves a fairly distinct signature on the effected parts.

Attached is a photo of a sprocket shaft extension from a 1990’s era machine that has been run for 42,598 miles. This is a common example from that era of a shaft extension that would remain serviceable through the normal service life of the machine.
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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2011, 07:30:27 PM »

So the elephant in the room is...what type/brand/whatever lubrication is necessary to avoid premature failure of this component, since failure of the newer style seems to be directly related to inadequate lubrication?  And the second point would be...would it be "better" to change the primary fluid more often than 10K, like at 5K, when you change the crankcase oil?

Just my opinion, Terry, but I don't think there is a specific type of lubrication that will prevent the high wear rate of the SE compensator.  Some lubricants may slow the rate of wear, but the root problem is a design issue that isn"t going be overcome by a specific type lubricant.  I don't think changing the lubricant more frequently will have any effect on the issue either.   Again, just my opinion, but I believe a mechanical design change is required to eliminate the issue.  Perhaps some type of pressurized lubrication delivery design.

I used Formula + this summer on a new compensator (installed when I installed my 120r motor).  As soon as winter sets in, I'll pull the compensator and see what it looks like....  It will have about 7.5K on it...
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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2011, 08:32:53 PM »

Just my opinion, Terry, but I don't think there is a specific type of lubrication that will prevent the high wear rate of the SE compensator.  Some lubricants may slow the rate of wear, but the root problem is a design issue that isn"t going be overcome by a specific type lubricant.  I don't think changing the lubricant more frequently will have any effect on the issue either.   Again, just my opinion, but I believe a mechanical design change is required to eliminate the issue.  Perhaps some type of pressurized lubrication delivery design.

I used Formula + this summer on a new compensator (installed when I installed my 120r motor).  As soon as winter sets in, I'll pull the compensator and see what it looks like....  It will have about 7.5K on it...

I agree completely.  Lubrication failures don't automatically mean the problem was caused by the lubricant.  The mechanical design must be such that the lubricant can easily get to all surfaces that require lubrication.  Considering some of the stuff I've read from people with failures on the SE compensator where severe galling took place, it sounds like Harley needs to do some more work on the basic design and probably on the actual materials as well.  I was hoping the -A level had some of those changes, but from what djkak mentioned I guess I wouldn't get my hopes up.  Maybe the -D revision will address the real issues.  Or more likely, Harley will decide that the current design will survive long enough on the vast majority of bikes to exceed the two year warranty limit.  After that, someone else gets to pay so it tends to become a non-issue in Milwaukee.  Actually, leaving it as is means more parts sales, since there is no aftermarket replacement.  


Jerry
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 03:46:54 PM by grc »
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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2011, 11:37:26 PM »

The challenge is to resolve the metal on metal contact of the effected parts. If the oil supply is inadequate, that may not be difficult to resolve. If the lubrication technology necessary to meet this challenge is impractical or not available, then this could be resolved by reducing the concentrated load across the effected areas.

I believe that prior to 2007 the lubrication properties necessary to support the primary drive’s operation were very modest. The introduction of the Cruise Drive on the touring rigs presented a number of unanticipated challenges to the boys and girls at H-D, and possibly one or two other folks. My sense is that if there was a lubricant on the market that was simply adequate in a pre 2007 machine, you wouldn’t stand a chance with it in a Cruise Drive tourer.

I hesitate to go straight to the sprocket assembly for the answer, because there are a lot of machines running around that don’t seem to experience this premature wear with either sprocket. At this point it’s tough to say if the failure that some experience, exceeds the practical lubrication technology available, or if it’s simply an issue for some vendors to play catch-up. Either way I believe that an awareness of the nature of this failure will help.

FWIW, re: attached photo taken today. 6-29-09 @ 255 miles: installed Jim’s 131 with SE comp sprocket and other peripheral goodies. Haven’t had the primary apart since then; replaced a few sets of lifters, though. I posted a photo of the sprocket sometime prior to install. I don’t recommend one lube over another, but have been using the lube recommended by SBB
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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2011, 02:52:48 PM »

A friend of mine who is a indy mechanic did this to his bike, a 2007 Ultra Classic, he put in an extra spring in the compensator.   He says it has taken some of the clunk out of starting and putting it in to first gear, he did it about 3 weeks ago so not a lot of miles since he did the work.  It may sound like an easy way to help the compensator do its job.  Anyone with any ideas or concerns with this?  He used a stock spring out of a EVO primary which he said matches up the the stock springs on his 2007 compensator.  He put the extra spring in last and spooned it the one before it.  What do you think?     
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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2011, 07:25:54 PM »

Lots of interesting info on comps around here the past couple of months. It just dawned on me however, what happens with the comp when people change over to a belt drive and dry clutch? Even though a backing plate for the standoffs goes over it, I've never seen one with an oil plug and since there have been previous discussions regarding the necessity of lubrication on the comp how does it fair dry? Or am I missing something here?
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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2011, 10:40:32 PM »

Lots of interesting info on comps around here the past couple of months. It just dawned on me however, what happens with the comp when people change over to a belt drive and dry clutch? Even though a backing plate for the standoffs goes over it, I've never seen one with an oil plug and since there have been previous discussions regarding the necessity of lubrication on the comp how does it fair dry? Or am I missing something here?

Belt drive primarys eliminate the comp assembly.

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Re: 40274-08A Compensator
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2011, 07:34:24 PM »

Belt drive primarys eliminate the comp assembly.
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