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Author Topic: Traction Dynamics?  (Read 13662 times)

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Twolanerider

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Traction Dynamics?
« on: January 07, 2007, 11:29:09 PM »

Just read an email from a semi-regular riding buddy here letting me know he's bringing the beer for the installation of a set of rebuilt forks on his Electra Glide.  Stuff from a place called Traction Dynamics with what I presume to be a part number of AK-20.  Some kind of a cartridge kit apparently.  

I tried to find the company on line but struck out.  Just wondering if anyone here has seen this before so I'll have an idea of what we're getting to when he brings the beer?
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2007, 08:50:13 AM »

just checked with my buddy google and he sent me here

http://www.traxxion.com/cruisers/harley_home.htm
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2007, 09:19:04 AM »

Quote
just checked with my buddy google and he sent me here

http://www.traxxion.com/cruisers/harley_home.htm

It sounds interesting. All the top sportbikes have them as well as some HDs. They don't show an application for many HDs. And not for FLHs. They say to send them your forks and they'll rebuild them for you. I'm curious to see where this takes you Don. ;) Hoist!  8-)
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2007, 10:49:56 AM »

Quote
just checked with my buddy google and he sent me here

http://www.traxxion.com/cruisers/harley_home.htm


Ah, humbug.  I did a Yahoo search for "traction dynamics" as the name was sent to me and didn't immediately come to it.  Traxxion.  D'oy!
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Twolanerider

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2007, 10:51:46 AM »

Quote

It sounds interesting. All the top sportbikes have them as well as some HDs. They don't show an application for many HDs. And not for FLHs. They say to send them your forks and they'll rebuild them for you. I'm curious to see where this takes you Don. ;) Hoist!  8-)


Ok, after a quick glance after seeing Neal's corrected spelling it sure does.  The guy here did send them a pair of forks and has now received them back.  Will have to go over and see what the work looks like.  

The really sucky part about this is I need to change fork oil between now and spring.  Another freaking idea.....
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2007, 11:17:04 AM »

I've been giving some thought to improving the fork response on the big bike, as it's always seemed "mushy" to me and it seems I can feel a little instability when pushing through a curve, but didn't know, or hadn't checked into, things available. The back end of the bike, since putting on the Legends, is greatly improved.  This company looks like it's worth looking into...it's just a 2.5 hour ride from my house.

Let us know how the job goes, Don...and what brand and how many beers it takes to get it done. [smiley=drink.gif]
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 05:58:20 PM »

Why were on subject...are there any tips or tricks you guys might reccomend to beef up or help the front end without spending a $1000. Like change the spring or different or more oil. Would like some input.

Barry
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2007, 06:05:10 PM »

Quote
Why were on subject...are there any tips or tricks you guys might reccomend to beef up or help the front end without spending a $1000. Like change the spring or different or more oil. Would like some input.

Barry


Barry,  there's a thread on Changing Fork Oil....bottom line is to change to a 15w fork oil...you've got 7.5w in there now.  A couple of folks use the 20wSE oil too.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2007, 06:14:21 PM »

Quote


Barry,  there's a thread on Changing Fork Oil....bottom line is to change to a 15w fork oil...you've got 7.5w in there now.  A couple of folks use the 20wSE oil too.


20w here.  Much firmer.  Never bottoms out.  One of those personal preference things.  But I like the front suspension firm and don't mind it that translates to what others might consider a bit too firm.  20w is not so firm that you're adding wheel hop feelings back through the bike or anything.  But it is noticably stiffer than the stock soup we started with.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2007, 06:57:25 PM »

Quote
Why were on subject...are there any tips or tricks you guys might reccomend to beef up or help the front end without spending a $1000. Like change the spring or different or more oil. Would like some input.

Barry


The company link above also offers a cheaper alternative, which appears to include new springs...
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2007, 07:17:02 PM »

Quote


The company link above also offers a cheaper alternative, which appears to include new springs...


Springs and emulators if I remember correctly.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2007, 08:26:54 PM »

Quote


20w here.  Much firmer.  Never bottoms out.  One of those personal preference things.  But I like the front suspension firm and don't mind it that translates to what others might consider a bit too firm.  20w is not so firm that you're adding wheel hop feelings back through the bike or anything.  But it is noticably stiffer than the stock soup we started with.
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Are you using the HD SE fork oil? racing or performance? John
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2007, 09:29:25 PM »

I'm a little confused here. It was my understanding that all Screamin Eagle model baggers came with the Profile Low front end kit installed as depicted on page 476 of the 2007 Parts catalogue. I know LD has it as it is one of the features of the Road Glide and judging by the fact the the front end on Elvis feels the same ( lighter but similar) I'd say it has it as well. Check the original brochure for your bike, it lists all of the goodies they added. If it says Profile Low front end, then you are already running a cartridge type front suspension.

B B
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2007, 10:06:01 PM »

BB,

The SEEG's came with the Profile front suspension, the CUSE's came with the standard height suspension.  The Profile setup is a damper rod system, BTW, not cartridge.

Jerry
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2007, 10:09:37 PM »

Quote
BB,

The SEEG's came with the Profile front suspension, the CUSE's came with the standard height suspension.  The Profile setup is a damper rod system, BTW, not cartridge.

Jerry

Jerry,
          Can't say you're wrong on the SERK's and SEEG's but LD has cartridge. Read page 476 of the 07 Parts catalogue. Item A.

B B
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2007, 10:16:16 AM »

Quote


Ok, after a quick glance after seeing Neal's corrected spelling it sure does.  The guy here did send them a pair of forks and has now received them back.  Will have to go over and see what the work looks like.  

[highlight]The really sucky part about this is I need to change fork oil between now and spring.  Another freaking idea..[/highlight]...

Don,

Wasn't it you busting Spiderman's chops about the chrome caliper bolts?  I believe that you said you were done modifying as well  ;D   Brian, I got your back here...
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2007, 12:12:19 PM »

Quote

Don,

Wasn't it you busting Spiderman's chops about the chrome caliper bolts?  I believe that you said you were done modifying as well  ;D   Brian, I got your back here...


I definitely fall on my sword on this one Ernie.  Was PMing with Spiderman just last night about that very thing.  We'd both had thoughts of being "done" (or something close to it).  Then more ideas happen.

Truth is on the red bike I really had no other ideas or aspirations for it.  It "felt" right to me without any holes in the package.  The colored and flamed legs were just a new concept.  Something that gave me a really nice first impression to.  So what the hell.....

After that, however, I still don't have any more ideas.  I am not at all against just maintaining and riding.  Not really jonesing to work on it simply for the sake of doing so.  But good ideas have their place.

Much more on this bike, however, will be "too much."  That's a line I don't intend to cross (if I haven't already).  So we'll see what happens.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2007, 04:42:50 PM »

Quote

Jerry,
          Can't say you're wrong on the SERK's and SEEG's but LD has cartridge. Read page 476 of the 07 Parts catalogue. Item A.

B B
Brian,

The confusing part of this is that H-D shows two fork lowering kits in the catalog for Touring models (three if you count the separate one for Road Kings).  There is one with a -02 part number, and a newer one with a -06 part number.  In '06, H-D changed the standard forks on the the Road Glides and Electra Glides from the strange "one side damper rod, other side cartridge" setup to an all cartridge setup (see attachment - still confusing since they call them "conventional", which you would think means damper rods).  I'm guessing this is why there are two different lowering kits, with the -06 kit reusing the dampers from the stock forks. ??

So, I guess the important thing here is that anyone buying one of these kits makes sure they get the correct one for their model year.

Jerry
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 04:45:33 PM by grc »
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2007, 05:09:16 PM »

Jerry, isn't the HD complete assembled fork leg considered a "cartridge" as an assembly? As a cartridge it uses individual cartridge components to comprise this. The Performance type cartridge fork (like this Traxxion unit) consists of an internal, fully adjustable complete enclosed cartridge that installs inside of the fork slider assembly. That would explain the confusion, since they are both referenced with "cartridge". That's my understanding. I could be wrong. ;) Hoist!  8-)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 05:14:34 PM by Hoist »
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2007, 05:48:04 PM »

Quote
Brian,

The confusing part of this is that H-D shows two fork lowering kits in the catalog for Touring models (three if you count the separate one for Road Kings).  There is one with a -02 part number, and a newer one with a -06 part number.  In '06, H-D changed the standard forks on the the Road Glides and Electra Glides from the strange "one side damper rod, other side cartridge" setup to an all cartridge setup (see attachment - still confusing since they call them "conventional", which you would think means damper rods).  I'm guessing this is why there are two different lowering kits, with the -06 kit reusing the dampers from the stock forks. ??

So, I guess the important thing here is that anyone buying one of these kits makes sure they get the correct one for their model year.

Jerry

Jerry, oh learned one... ;)  WTF does emulate mean in this context?  What is it emulating?
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2007, 06:01:07 PM »

Quote
Jerry, isn't the HD complete assembled fork leg considered a "cartridge" as an assembly? As a cartridge it uses individual cartridge components to comprise this. The Performance type cartridge fork (like this Traxxion unit) consists of an internal, fully adjustable complete enclosed cartridge that installs inside of the fork slider assembly. That would explain the confusion, since they are both referenced with "cartridge". That's my understanding. I could be wrong. ;) Hoist!  8-)
Howie,

In the past, the damper rod system was referred to as "conventional", and the cartridge system was called out as a "cartridge" system.  It appears the folks writing copy for the new accessory manual have mixed this up just a tad.  Case in point, the Profile Lowering kit for '02-'05 bikes, which is what came on the SEEG's, mentions cartridge in the copy but those of us who have them can assure you they are damper rod only.

The "cartridge" system used by Harley is a low cost, low tech system when compared to the true performance cartridge systems.  The best systems, used mainly on sport bikes, are externally adjustable for compression and rebound damping (separately and independently), and for spring preload.  It appears that the Traxxion system falls more into this category.  Another option is the Gold Valve Emulator from RaceTech, which gives you the ability to adjust compression damping separately from rebound, but you have to disassemble the fork to make the adjustment.

The latest H-D system uses a three way valve to vary damping based on velocity/pressure, but it isn't adjustable.  Increasing fork oil viscosity would appear to affect this system the same way it does a damper rod, increasing both compression and rebound damping at the same time.  

Jerry
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2007, 06:13:06 PM »

Quote
Howie,

In the past, the damper rod system was referred to as "conventional", and the cartridge system was called out as a "cartridge" system.  It appears the folks writing copy for the new accessory manual have mixed this up just a tad.  Case in point, the Profile Lowering kit for '02-'05 bikes, which is what came on the SEEG's, mentions cartridge in the copy but those of us who have them can assure you they are damper rod only.

The "cartridge" system used by Harley is a low cost, low tech system when compared to the true performance cartridge systems.  The best systems, used mainly on sport bikes, are externally adjustable for compression and rebound damping (separately and independently), and for spring preload.  It appears that the Traxxion system falls more into this category.  Another option is the Gold Valve Emulator from RaceTech, which gives you the ability to adjust compression damping separately from rebound, but you have to disassemble the fork to make the adjustment.

The latest H-D system uses a three way valve to vary damping based on velocity/pressure, but it isn't adjustable.  Increasing fork oil viscosity would appear to affect this system the same way it does a damper rod, increasing both compression and rebound damping at the same time.  

Jerry

Since I've got my 2007 FLHTCUSE2 parts manual handy, I looked it up. The current setup, uses a damper valve (#46209-06), similar to the Race Tech unit, except I don't know about the adjustable part, so I will bow to Jerry and guess that he's right about them not being adjustable.

The parts count is only one, where items like the damper rod indicate two, so it looks like we're back to the  bastardized setup of one conventional and one modified.

Looks like I'll be ordering another set of Gold Valve emulators from Race Tech to tighten this one up too.

Chief
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 06:14:56 PM by HarleyDudeAtl »
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2007, 07:46:20 PM »

Quote

Jerry, oh learned one... ;)  WTF does emulate mean in this context?  What is it emulating?
Terry,

In this case emulate means "mimic", or act like.  Gold Valve Emulators, for instance, are not a full cartridge replacement for the standard fork damper.  They just mimic the action of a true cartridge system by separating the rebound and compression damping functions, and making the compression damping more linear relative to velocity.  When you install these emulators, you drill out the compression damping holes in the damper rods, effectively eliminating any compression damping from the rods.  The emulators sit on top of the rods and take over the compression damping chores, while the rods still handle rebound damping.

The problem with damper rods is that they do not react in a linear manner.  With low speed suspension movements, there is very little damping since the oil flows easily through the fixed size holes.  When the same fork hits a sharp edged bump, resulting in high speed suspension movement, you get extremely high damping since you are now trying to force oil through the same holes at a much higher speed.  The actual damping force increases as a square of the velocity; ie. if you double the velocity, the damping force quadruples.  This is why a damper rod system is mushy on small undulations and dives excessively when braking, but will then drive your arms into your shoulders on a sharp edged bump.

On the other hand, a cartridge system uses a stack of thin spring steel washers to control oil flow through the cartridge.  At low velocity, the shims move very little so you have increased damping compared to the damper rod system.  At high velocities, the shims move more and thus allow oil to flow more freely than the damper rod system, resulting in a more linear relationship between velocity and damping force.  A true cartridge system has two cartridges, one for compression damping and one for rebound.  

Hopefully this didn't muddy the waters even more.

Jerry
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2007, 08:07:05 PM »

Quote
Terry,

In this case emulate means "mimic", or act like.  Gold Valve Emulators, for instance, are not a full cartridge replacement for the standard fork damper.  They just mimic the action of a true cartridge system by separating the rebound and compression damping functions, and making the compression damping more linear relative to velocity.  When you install these emulators, you drill out the compression damping holes in the damper rods, effectively eliminating any compression damping from the rods.  The emulators sit on top of the rods and take over the compression damping chores, while the rods still handle rebound damping.

The problem with damper rods is that they do not react in a linear manner.  With low speed suspension movements, there is very little damping since the oil flows easily through the fixed size holes.  When the same fork hits a sharp edged bump, resulting in high speed suspension movement, you get extremely high damping since you are now trying to force oil through the same holes at a much higher speed.  The actual damping force increases as a square of the velocity; ie. if you double the velocity, the damping force quadruples.  This is why a damper rod system is mushy on small undulations and dives excessively when braking, but will then drive your arms into your shoulders on a sharp edged bump.

On the other hand, a cartridge system uses a stack of thin spring steel washers to control oil flow through the cartridge.  At low velocity, the shims move very little so you have increased damping compared to the damper rod system.  At high velocities, the shims move more and thus allow oil to flow more freely than the damper rod system, resulting in a more linear relationship between velocity and damping force.  A true cartridge system has two cartridges, one for compression damping and one for rebound.  

Hopefully this didn't muddy the waters even more.

Jerry

Jerry,

Do you think the parts book is right in that there is only one valve used? The list every other part as qty. 2, but only list the damper as a single. If that is so, I would think the two dampers would need to be different, small holes for the conventional, and larger holes for the modified leg.

Chief
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2007, 08:08:49 PM »

Quote
On the other hand, a cartridge system

Ok Jerry, my head is not benefiting from any such dampening effect right now.  Completely spinning in fact.  At a rudimentary level I was familiar with all the differences.  Some from having built a few shocks over the years for cars on the track.  Their work loads and forces against (in terms of geometry, volume and type) are all significantly different though.  So while the fundaments might be similar the practical translations are much different.

Rather than asking the question in systems terms let me put it in applications terms to hopefully gain an understanding that's pertinent to what's going on with these parts right now:

On a bike that weighs 800 or 900 pounds doing the kind of riding that a touring bike is commonly subjected to what difference(s) will the rider feel when moving from the type of hardware we have OE versus what this more sophisticated (which isn't always better) cartridge system from Traxxion Dynamics will do?
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2007, 08:36:10 PM »

Don,

The main differences you would notice right away would be less front end dive on braking or gentle undulations in the road, and smoother response to hard, sharp bumps without transferring most of the shock to the rider.  Basically what you get with a cartridge versus a damper rod is more compression damping at low fork velocities, and less at high velocities.  A damper rod system can actually "lock" hydraulically on an extremely rapid movement, while the cartridge will just open further to let the oil continue to flow and the fork to compress.  

To put it in automotive terms, it would be somewhat similar to comparing the ride of a 1979 Lincoln to a BMW.  The next question, though, is whether the Traxxion system at more than $1k is significantly better than a $250 set of emulators and a little labor.   [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Jerry
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 09:06:34 PM by grc »
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2007, 08:50:08 PM »

Quote

Jerry,

Do you think the parts book is right in that there is only one valve used? The list every other part as qty. 2, but only list the damper as a single. If that is so, I would think the two dampers would need to be different, small holes for the conventional, and larger holes for the modified leg.

Chief
Chief,

I was a little disappointed when I looked at a picture of the "new" dampers for the '06 and later bikes, since the original information made it sound like they went to true cartridge dampers.  I should have known the MoCo wouldn't spend that kind of money.  What you mentioned in your earlier post seems to be the case, that this new valve is similar to the Gold Valve Emulators and is just added to the old damper rods.  

The only info I had was the piece I posted above from the Tech Forum for '06, which seems to indicate that both legs had the new valves.  If the parts catalog states differently, though, I'd believe the parts catalog.  And if there is only one valve, that truly sucks.  One of the things we always strived for in the old dirt bike days was to make sure each fork leg responded exactly the same (spring rate, oil level and viscosity, seal friction, etc.), to eliminate side loading and stiction.  If you have two totally different damper systems, there is no way both legs can respond the same.  

Jerry
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2007, 09:08:05 PM »

Quote
 A damper rod system can actually "lock" hydraulically on an extremely rapid movement,

Ok, more than anything that single part of the explanation is illustrative.  Know exactly that feeling from having experienced it many times over the miles.  Trading that for what would be at the same time more controlled and less abrupt would be a real benefit.  It'll never feel like the little bikes do.  But the response will be more akin to how they respond.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 09:14:05 PM by twolanerider »
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2007, 09:10:43 PM »

Quote
Terry,

In this case emulate means "mimic", or act like.  Gold Valve Emulators, for instance, are not a full cartridge replacement for the standard fork damper.  They just mimic the action of a true cartridge system by separating the rebound and compression damping functions, and making the compression damping more linear relative to velocity.  When you install these emulators, you drill out the compression damping holes in the damper rods, effectively eliminating any compression damping from the rods.  The emulators sit on top of the rods and take over the compression damping chores, while the rods still handle rebound damping.

The problem with damper rods is that they do not react in a linear manner.  With low speed suspension movements, there is very little damping since the oil flows easily through the fixed size holes.  When the same fork hits a sharp edged bump, resulting in high speed suspension movement, you get extremely high damping since you are now trying to force oil through the same holes at a much higher speed.  The actual damping force increases as a square of the velocity; ie. if you double the velocity, the damping force quadruples.  This is why a damper rod system is mushy on small undulations and dives excessively when braking, but will then drive your arms into your shoulders on a sharp edged bump.

On the other hand, a cartridge system uses a stack of thin spring steel washers to control oil flow through the cartridge.  At low velocity, the shims move very little so you have increased damping compared to the damper rod system.  At high velocities, the shims move more and thus allow oil to flow more freely than the damper rod system, resulting in a more linear relationship between velocity and damping force.  A true cartridge system has two cartridges, one for compression damping and one for rebound.  

Hopefully this didn't muddy the waters even more.

Jerry

OK, Jerry...as always, you have done an excellent job of explaining the difference in what I am feeling when riding the Ultra and the Ducati.  Not that I think the Ultra rides bad, because it is what it is...a large, heavy touring bike, but now that I have what I think is an excellent suspension on the rear of the bike, it has made me pay more attention to what's happening on the front end of the bike.  Although my Duc does not have the Ohlin suspension of the 1000S model, it does have a top of the line Showa, in both front and rear, with preload adjustments for both forks and the mono-shock in the rear.  There is no wiggle, regardless of how hard you pitch the bike over entering a turn, or how hard you get on the throttle in the middle and exiting the apex. The model Duc I have is not a pure sport bike, but would be considered a sports touring bike. I know some of that has to do with rigidity of the front end and whether things are allowed to flex out of being parrallel (forks), but the ability of the oil to flow through holes or flex a series of shims according to how much pressure is put on the system, is obviously vastly different.

Don, it will be very interesting to hear about your buddy's bike when you help him with the install of the new system!!

I can see I need to do some more reading about suspension!!
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2007, 09:18:06 PM »

Quote
Don, it will be very interesting to hear about your buddy's bike when you help him with the install of the new system!!

I can see I need to do some more reading about suspension!!

Terry, I'm in the same place as your last sentence above places you.  Also now more curiously interested in what his Road King will feel like.  There is a short two miles or so stretch of decent twisties I'll run it through. I think even more interestingly there is a stretch of about 1/4 mile with some washout type undulations in it and a couple miles stretch of highway not too far away that's rain ribbed and corrugated.  Really interested in feeling the differences in all of those.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2007, 09:21:00 AM »

When I hit 20,000 on my e-glide Classic, I did the whole front-end removal to check the bearings, and while I had it all apart, installed a set of Race Tech's Gold Valve Emulators. I had read about them a couple of times and was convinced they would be an improvement. They helped a lot.

The valves got rid of the front-end dive on braking, and also eliminated the bone-jarring hit you take on big square bumps like bridge abuttments. In short, it eliminates two of the major compromises that occur with the crude damper rod forks HD uses in our bikes.

I thought the 07 would be better, but after looking at the parts book, I'm not too happy.

I think I'll probably be ordering a set of emulators for the new bike too.

Here's a couple links about the Emulators.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9502_tech/
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/race_tech_cartridge_emulator/

Chief
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 09:32:59 AM by HarleyDudeAtl »
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2007, 05:57:24 PM »

Any discussion of how these parts might feel on the buddy's bike won't happen this weekend.  Ice storm moving through.  Already got a coat on everything.  Supposed to still be messy on Sunday so we bailed.  Still interested in seeing how they feel though.  Will advise when it happens.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2007, 06:04:19 PM »

Quote
Any discussion of how these parts might feel on the buddy's bike won't happen this weekend.  Ice storm moving through.  Already got a coat on everything.  Supposed to still be messy on Sunday so we bailed.  Still interested in seeing how they feel though.  Will advise when it happens.

Noticed this morning on the Weather Channel that you were in for some ice...hope the power stays on for you!  Am very interested in the new forks and how they feel, so will look forward to your report.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2007, 12:27:05 PM »

Quote
Two lane,
Are you using the HD SE fork oil? racing or performance? John


Oto, I'm am using the 20w.  Like the firmer feel.  If I remember correctly (it's been almost two years now!) it was not the bottle labled "racing."
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2007, 12:28:48 PM »

Quote

Noticed this morning on the Weather Channel that you were in for some ice...hope the power stays on for you!  Am very interested in the new forks and how they feel, so will look forward to your report.


Yeap, no joy on that task today.  Really nasty here.  He'd dropped the legs by earlier in the week.  Now they're just setting out in garage on the bench very close to my bike.  That was a dangerous place to leave them.....
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2007, 01:07:08 PM »

Quote


Oto, I'm am using the 20w.  Like the firmer feel.  If I remember correctly (it's been almost two years now!) it was not the bottle labled "racing."
2lane,
the "racing" is labeled as Extra HEAVY DUTY, while performance is HEAVY DUTY ( no specific weight is listed, the racing is double race flagged!). I guess I will wait to get when more info comes in on improved fork oil vs emulators vs the "real deal" cartridge upgrade. Thanks to Terry I got in on the group buy for legend rear suspension and has made front performance and little more noticeable.  thanks, john
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2007, 01:20:11 PM »

Quote
2lane,
the "racing" is labeled as Extra HEAVY DUTY, while performance is HEAVY DUTY ( no specific weight is listed, the racing is double race flagged!). I guess I will wait to get when more info comes in on improved fork oil vs emulators vs the "real deal" cartridge upgrade. Thanks to Terry I got in on the group buy for legend rear suspension and has made front performance and little more noticeable.  thanks, john


John, like I said it's been a couple of years.  But I have some recollection of being told that the "racing" extra heavy duty was also not a formulation intended for extended service intervals.  Was intended for use in systems apart far more frequently than what I am EVER going to do (I hate changing fork oil).  

Since I wanted firm, but not rock hard, and since I didn't want shortened service intervals I used the stuff I did.  Have used PJ1 and BelRay in times past too.  Good fork oils aren't hard to come by.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2007, 10:51:16 PM »

You guys had to wait till Beags and I had LD all back together again and the tops of the fork tubes covered before you started this stuff about fork oil didn't you. Yes, it is all about me, every word, every post everything It's about me ME ME ME  [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

B B
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2007, 01:23:20 AM »

Quote
You guys had to wait till Beags and I had LD all back together again and the tops of the fork tubes covered before you started this stuff about fork oil didn't you. Yes, it is all about me, every word, every post everything It's about me ME ME ME  [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

B B


Damn straight Brian.  You should have seen all the PMs buzzing back and forth.  "What's he finishing up?"  "If wait just another day we'll REALLY be screwing with him!"  Stuff like that all over the place waiting for the perfect moment to launch the new thread.  None of us really have any interest at all in this stuff.  It's just done to screw with you  ;D [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] ;D !
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2007, 02:41:00 PM »



No joy on installing these again this weekend.  More poor weather.  All roads but primaries still bad from the last go-round and another 3-5" snow expected on top of it today.  Sorry.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2007, 03:08:48 PM »

Quote

No joy on installing these again this weekend.  More poor weather.  All roads but primaries still bad from the last go-round and another 3-5" snow expected on top of it today.  Sorry.

Don,  anxious to hear about this system.  I gave them a call today and had a chat about what one could expect from making this change, and was impressed with their knowledge and customer service.  Very friendly and helpful.  If a person was so inclined, he could ride his bike to their place and they will do the changes in a day.  They will waive the normal assembly charge, and only charge $100 bucks to take the forks off and install them after they make the changes.  That's their total package, the AK-20, installed with chrome fork caps that are adjustable.

What I'm noticing on my bike is becoming more pronounced since getting the Legends, putting a few miles (10K) on the front fork oil, and pushing the bike a little harder in the turns since it feels more sure footed in the rear.  Getting a definite "wallowing" feel from the front forks...not a wobble.  It's for sure the front forks...not scarey or anything, just mushy.

When the weather gets a little warmer, I might just have to take a scoot over to North of Hot'Lanta and see what's up... ::)
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2007, 02:14:10 AM »

Quote


What I'm noticing on my bike is becoming more pronounced since getting the Legends, putting a few miles (10K) on the front fork oil, and pushing the bike a little harder in the turns since it feels more sure footed in the rear.  Getting a definite "wallowing" feel from the front forks...not a wobble.  It's for sure the front forks...not scarey or anything, just mushy.

When the weather gets a little warmer, I might just have to take a scoot over to North of Hot'Lanta and see what's up... ::)

TC, what you're describing is what I felt in the red bike from day one.  It was even more pronounced though.  Not so much a wallow but a WALLOW.  It would even bottom out under what was really only moderate breaking too.  

Going to the heavy SE fork oil made a significant difference.  The bottoming out was gone and the WALLOW was toned down to a very manageable wallow.

It's only supposed to be reach a high in the mid 20s here this weekend but if the roads clear between now and then the current plan is to do the deed on that Road King and take the bike out a bit.  A washboard stretch of road I'm very interested in driving it over is 20 miles or so away so we might even wimp out and trailer the bike to the area I've got in mind just to see what it feels like before and after.  Pray for no more snow between now and Sunday and hopefully will be able to share some reaction to what it felt like on the bike.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2007, 10:33:45 AM »

Quote

TC, what you're describing is what I felt in the red bike from day one.  It was even more pronounced though.  Not so much a wallow but a WALLOW.  It would even bottom out under what was really only moderate breaking too.  

Going to the heavy SE fork oil made a significant difference.  The bottoming out was gone and the WALLOW was toned down to a very manageable wallow.

It's only supposed to be reach a high in the mid 20s here this weekend but if the roads clear between now and then the current plan is to do the deed on that Road King and take the bike out a bit.  A washboard stretch of road I'm very interested in driving it over is 20 miles or so away so we might even wimp out and trailer the bike to the area I've got in mind just to see what it feels like before and after.  Pray for no more snow between now and Sunday and hopefully will be able to share some reaction to what it felt like on the bike.

Kewl, Don...it would be nice to hear a first hand report on the differences on a road you know well.  The place that makes this system is only about a 2.5 hour ride for me, and for 100 bucks and a little gas, I would gladly allow someone else to perform that task for me after looking at the manual and seeing what a PITA it is to take it all apart on our bikes.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2007, 03:11:30 PM »

Quote

Kewl, Don...it would be nice to hear a first hand report on the differences on a road you know well.  The place that makes this system is only about a 2.5 hour ride for me, and for 100 bucks and a little gas, I would gladly allow someone else to perform that task for me after looking at the manual and seeing what a PITA it is to take it all apart on our bikes.


That sounds like a definite no brainer Terry.  Paying a hundred bucks for a nice ride across the Alabama and Georgia countryside, the privilege of seeing a cool shop and not having to take the nose of the bike all apart is short money for great return.  Hell, I'd almost ride there from here some weekend for that labor rate.

Hmmm, wonder if some nice spring three day weekend I could go from here to B-ham on a Friday and they could two bikes on a Saturday  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] ?  Mine could even be worked on a little bit ahead of time as I could send them the flamed forks that will be the ones to eventually go on the bike.
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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2007, 04:08:43 PM »

Quote


That sounds like a definite no brainer Terry.  Paying a hundred bucks for a nice ride across the Alabama and Georgia countryside, the privilege of seeing a cool shop and not having to take the nose of the bike all apart is short money for great return.  Hell, I'd almost ride there from here some weekend for that labor rate.

Hmmm, wonder if some nice spring three day weekend I could go from here to B-ham on a Friday and they could two bikes on a Saturday  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] ?  Mine could even be worked on a little bit ahead of time as I could send them the flamed forks that will be the ones to eventually go on the bike.

In my conversation with them, I asked them about the Saturday thing...he said they are sometimes "there" but don't do any work of this type...must just do the desk work.  But, if a person were going over to Myrtle Beach, or coming to B'ham for the AMA Superbike Races in late April, that person could zip over or through without too much out of the way time.  With your situation, the time needed there would probably be less.  He told me that on my bike, if I got it there at 9:00AM, it would probably take until about 3 to get it all done.  So, it's pretty much an all day thing.  Normally, they charge $150 for a disassembly/assembly of the fork itself, but he said if I bought the whole thing, he would waive that, so it would be the 1 bill for them taking the front of the bike off.  The guy said I would be "amazed" at the difference in the way the bike felt in every circumstance, and would particularly notice a huge difference when pushing the bike on twisty roads.  The diving and twisting feeling is not comforting when pushing the bike through a turn, and when the suspension settles into the turn, it's compressed a good bit on the front end, causing a bit of material removal on the bottom of the board supports.  It's not really scarey or anything, just doesn't feel solid enough to suit my tastes.

With all our pals here from the Hot'Lanta area, I'll bet we could get something worked out....
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Twolanerider

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2007, 05:20:33 PM »

Decisions, temptations, decisions.  Hopefully a good first hand "feel" this Sunday.  Keep your fingers crossed and pray to the weather gods.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2007, 11:56:27 PM »

The buddy's Road King got worked on today.  He lived closer to the stretches of road I wanted to try it out on so carried some tools over there.  In so doing grabbed tools and forgot the camera.  So no pics of what little you can see of the differences from the outside.

First observations is that the adjustability can make a real difference.  At least it could on the Road King or other bikes where it would be relatively readily accessible.  On the Glides you're likely going to get it where you like it, or at least where it seems ok, and leave it there.  Won't be worth chasing if you're satisfied it feels good.

Simple enough installation.  Just change the forks.  So nothing special to report there.  They'll come to you ready for installation.  No work on the units necessary once they come back from the company.  This only leaves the important part.....

Stop and go/city riding.  Here was paying more attention to how it lifted on acceleration and, more importantly, how it felt on hard braking.  Comparison has to be to the red bike with it's heavy SE fork oil as that's the feel I'm currently used to.

The red bike went from bottoming out under hard braking to being firm and solid with the change to the heavy oil.  It was a very necessary change.  It has, however, very little "give" to it.  I tend to prefer the firm feel so never really cared.  The difference here is that it is still as firm as you wish to make it but it is no longer as abrupt.  Hitting as speed bump a little too quickly, or a pot hole, for examples, won't feel as jarring.  It's honestly not a hugely important improvement (unless you regularly hit a lot of stuff), but it is an improvement nonetheless.

There was a short-ish couple miles stretch of decent twisties not far from where we worked.  I was so used to the red bike anymore that I automatically accustomed to how it "feels" on such things.  It doesn't surprise me so it doesn't worry me.  Again, the heavier fork oil made it "better" in such environments though it was still obviously always a big bike whose primary mission was an environment slightly straighter.  It would handle it ok, enough to carve floorboard brackets at will on those rare days I might be so inclined.  But it's obviously not a sport bike.

A pass through this stretch of road with the Road King before the work also gave me a bit of before and after comparison with it.  It didn't feel much different than the red bike.  The difference before and after was not quite what I might described as "dramatic" but it was definite.  And it was an improvement.  Staging in to a turn is better.  This is the biggest area of improvement actually.  There was a bit of wallowing in the red bike and the Road King that I was so used to I really didn't realize it was there anymore.  It happens at that point of being off power entering the curve and stays with you until geometry grabs the bike further through the turn and pushes down on it a bit.  That wallowing effect was there, mildly, in the Road King to begin with.  It was gone afterwards.

I did not push the bike terribly hard.  There is still ice and snow at the edges of the road.  Ice, debris and gravel mess from graders and traffic protruding beyond the edge on to the surface.  And no shoulders.  The road was clear so it was ok to play a bit.  But I wasn't going to screw with anything that might seem me slip a wheel out to the edge of the road.  So while the Road King was ridden to the point of just barely touching a board bracket a couple times that was all.  Can't say how the entry in to turns or other radii might be different if one were riding it more aggressively.  I also really felt no difference at all from that point in a turn when one would start to accelerate again and drive on through it.  That all felt the same.

The last comparison the Road King was put through was on an old messed up stretch of road that is almost washboarded.  It has the visual effect of black top laid over some oversized cattle guard that had slowly deflated between the rails over time.  Might also think of it as uber rain strips that happen to across the road rather than longitudinally.

It lasts about an 1/8 of a mile on a stretch of a road that is actually a drive back to a farm house rather than a public road.  At least I guess that's what it is as the old house is the only thing at the end of the road about two miles back there.  If you hit these bumps unexpectedly at too high a speed they can ruin your whole day.

The Road King could be ridden over this and still be controlled without shaking your hands and arms apart of off the grips up to just less than 25 mph.  That was it.  At that point the bike was ready to hop out from underneath you in any particular direction.

After the work was done it could be ridden over the same stretch at about 35 and the front end was still manageable.  Where before really both ends were getting away from you now obviously the back end was the weak link.

So, all tolled, the bike was more comfortable and better handling.  The harder you ride it the more dramatic will be the difference.  There is a difference that anyone should be able to feel in just about any riding type though (with the exception of cruise locked on, feet up on the super slab).  In town it's better, two lanes playing it's better, rougher road it's much better. 

I've been on a couple of touring bikes that had emulators installed.  They were better than stock, not quite as good as this, but probably a little more than half way there.  The company's cost for this job isn't just a few bucks.  So hopefully this little comparison will offer some insight if anyone is considering it.
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Midnight Rider

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2007, 12:35:07 AM »

Thanks for this report, Don.  And really, it's about what I expected to hear...something between where it was before and what anybody who has pride in what they produce is going to tell you.  There's a couple of places I ride to with regularity on the weekends if I'm not really taking a ride..about 25 miles each way, along a road here we locally refer to as "The Copperhead", going out to 29 Dreams.  It's not The Dragon, but a lot of people go down on it every year.  There are a couple of places on this road, just before entering a 90 degree or better right hander, going downhill, and the road has been patched several times (poorly).  It's one of those deals where you just got through accelerating out of a left hander that's more sweeping in nature, then you have to set up for this sharp right with this patched up pavement right before the turn.  If you are a little hot, the suspension on the big bike will jar you pretty good when setting up...some people have lost it there because the tires just can't stay on the pavement from the chattering of the suspension, as the front end is all but collapsed.  Sounds a lot like a shorter duration of what you're describing, only with a pretty damn sharp curve at the end of the "rubboard".  Sounds to me like this front end would help in a situation like that.  Getting rid of the diving and the raising of the suspension is also something worthwhile, IMO.  Of course, my basis for comparison is a bit foggy because of the extremes of the bikes I'm comparing.

Sounds like it's definitely worth doing some more thinking about...
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Sometimes it takes a whole tankful of fuel before you can think straight.
I had the right to remain silent, just not the ability...

Gone, but not forgotten...2011 FLTRUSE with
Fullsac X Pipe w/2" Baffles
Legend Air Ride Rear Shocks
Traxxion Dynamics AK-20 Front Suspension
Clearview GT13 Windshield
TTS Mastertune

Twolanerider

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2007, 01:01:43 AM »

Thanks for this report, Don.  And really, it's about what I expected to hear...

Sounds like it's definitely worth doing some more thinking about...



Agreed completely Terry.  It is an improvement.  And a noticable and obvious one.  For the way most of us ride most of these bikes most of the time, however, I'm just not sure it's 1000-1200 dollars worth of improvement.  Definitely needs some thought. 

Quite frankly at this point their half-way option of a fully installed set of emulators and new good springs seems a fair option also.  Half the money or therabouts and fair amount of the gain.

The harder you ride it as a thrasher the more you'd be interested in full upgrade.  Anyone could be more easily access the adjustability could also find it easier to justify as they could take more advantage of the ability to tailer the system to different days, roads and moods.  That's not a practical option for us though.  Yet another reason the emulators installation might be an honest alternative.
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Woop De Doo

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2007, 08:51:22 AM »

Twolane
   Appreciate your feedback on this setup. I'm an old motocosser and front break a lot. I do not like the way the front end sinks on my bike when front wheel braking. I actually believe that the front suspension needs more help than the rear suspension. You have provided some valuable feedback and it is appreciated.

   Don S
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Twolanerider

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2007, 03:49:45 PM »

Twolane
   Appreciate your feedback on this setup. I'm an old motocosser and front break a lot. I do not like the way the front end sinks on my bike when front wheel braking. I actually believe that the front suspension needs more help than the rear suspension. You have provided some valuable feedback and it is appreciated.

   Don S

Don, my SEEG was that way (badly) right out of the box.  It would actually bottom out under moderate to heavy braking.  Going to the heavy SE fork oil made a big difference.  Might be worth trying just for the hell of it.  If it got things to a satisfactory point it'd be a heluva lot cheaper than rebuilding a front end.   Just an option to consider.....
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Woop De Doo

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2007, 10:18:04 AM »

Twolane
  Thanks again for the input. I'll give the heavy fork oil a try on my next service.

   Thanks
   Don S
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RJ749

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2007, 06:00:14 PM »

Great comparison, thanks for the effort.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 06:48:52 PM by Rjob749 »
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Twolanerider

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2007, 06:39:41 PM »


compaison


That would be like the Italian guy standing next to you, right  :nixweiss: ?   :huepfenlol2:
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RJ749

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2007, 06:48:38 PM »

That would be like the Italian guy standing next to you, right  :nixweiss: ?   :huepfenlol2:

Aw chit and we have spell check if I'd use it.
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DavidB

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Re: Traction Dynamics?
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2007, 07:04:08 PM »

I removed the fork and the top caps on them. I then dropped in a front wheel spacer down both tubes and filled the forks with 15 wt oil, about one more oz than stock. This preloads the frontend and takes up a little more of the compressable air space above the valves.
The bike drives into curves now instead of doing the wallowing thing it liked from the factory.

Now if I could figure out how to get the kickstand up high enough to get it out of the pavement.
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