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[erniezap]

Ok, after a quick glance after seeing Neal's corrected spelling it sure does.  The guy here did send them a pair of forks and has now received them back.  Will have to go over and see what the work looks like.  

[highlight]The really sucky part about this is I need to change fork oil between now and spring.  Another freaking idea..[/highlight]...

Don,

Wasn't it you busting Spiderman's chops about the chrome caliper bolts?  I believe that you said you were done modifying as well     Brian, I got your back here...

[Twolanerider]

Don,

Wasn't it you busting Spiderman's chops about the chrome caliper bolts?  I believe that you said you were done modifying as well     Brian, I got your back here...

I definitely fall on my sword on this one Ernie.  Was PMing with Spiderman just last night about that very thing.  We'd both had thoughts of being "done" (or something close to it).  Then more ideas happen.

Truth is on the red bike I really had no other ideas or aspirations for it.  It "felt" right to me without any holes in the package.  The colored and flamed legs were just a new concept.  Something that gave me a really nice first impression to.  So what the hell.....

After that, however, I still don't have any more ideas.  I am not at all against just maintaining and riding.  Not really jonesing to work on it simply for the sake of doing so.  But good ideas have their place.

Much more on this bike, however, will be "too much."  That's a line I don't intend to cross (if I haven't already).  So we'll see what happens.

[grc]

Jerry,
          Can't say you're wrong on the SERK's and SEEG's but LD has cartridge. Read page 476 of the 07 Parts catalogue. Item A.

B B

Brian,

The confusing part of this is that H-D shows two fork lowering kits in the catalog for Touring models (three if you count the separate one for Road Kings).  There is one with a -02 part number, and a newer one with a -06 part number.  In '06, H-D changed the standard forks on the the Road Glides and Electra Glides from the strange "one side damper rod, other side cartridge" setup to an all cartridge setup (see attachment - still confusing since they call them "conventional", which you would think means damper rods).  I'm guessing this is why there are two different lowering kits, with the -06 kit reusing the dampers from the stock forks. ??

So, I guess the important thing here is that anyone buying one of these kits makes sure they get the correct one for their model year.

Jerry

[Hoist!]

Jerry, isn't the HD complete assembled fork leg considered a "cartridge" as an assembly? As a cartridge it uses individual cartridge components to comprise this. The Performance type cartridge fork (like this Traxxion unit) consists of an internal, fully adjustable complete enclosed cartridge that installs inside of the fork slider assembly. That would explain the confusion, since they are both referenced with "cartridge". That's my understanding. I could be wrong. Hoist!  8-)

[Midnight Rider]

Brian,

The confusing part of this is that H-D shows two fork lowering kits in the catalog for Touring models (three if you count the separate one for Road Kings).  There is one with a -02 part number, and a newer one with a -06 part number.  In '06, H-D changed the standard forks on the the Road Glides and Electra Glides from the strange "one side damper rod, other side cartridge" setup to an all cartridge setup (see attachment - still confusing since they call them "conventional", which you would think means damper rods).  I'm guessing this is why there are two different lowering kits, with the -06 kit reusing the dampers from the stock forks. ??

So, I guess the important thing here is that anyone buying one of these kits makes sure they get the correct one for their model year.

Jerry

Jerry, oh learned one...  WTF does emulate mean in this context?  What is it emulating?

[grc]

Jerry, isn't the HD complete assembled fork leg considered a "cartridge" as an assembly? As a cartridge it uses individual cartridge components to comprise this. The Performance type cartridge fork (like this Traxxion unit) consists of an internal, fully adjustable complete enclosed cartridge that installs inside of the fork slider assembly. That would explain the confusion, since they are both referenced with "cartridge". That's my understanding. I could be wrong. Hoist!  8-)

Howie,

In the past, the damper rod system was referred to as "conventional", and the cartridge system was called out as a "cartridge" system.  It appears the folks writing copy for the new accessory manual have mixed this up just a tad.  Case in point, the Profile Lowering kit for '02-'05 bikes, which is what came on the SEEG's, mentions cartridge in the copy but those of us who have them can assure you they are damper rod only.

The "cartridge" system used by Harley is a low cost, low tech system when compared to the true performance cartridge systems.  The best systems, used mainly on sport bikes, are externally adjustable for compression and rebound damping (separately and independently), and for spring preload.  It appears that the Traxxion system falls more into this category.  Another option is the Gold Valve Emulator from RaceTech, which gives you the ability to adjust compression damping separately from rebound, but you have to disassemble the fork to make the adjustment.

The latest H-D system uses a three way valve to vary damping based on velocity/pressure, but it isn't adjustable.  Increasing fork oil viscosity would appear to affect this system the same way it does a damper rod, increasing both compression and rebound damping at the same time.  

Jerry

[Chief]

Howie,

In the past, the damper rod system was referred to as "conventional", and the cartridge system was called out as a "cartridge" system.  It appears the folks writing copy for the new accessory manual have mixed this up just a tad.  Case in point, the Profile Lowering kit for '02-'05 bikes, which is what came on the SEEG's, mentions cartridge in the copy but those of us who have them can assure you they are damper rod only.

The "cartridge" system used by Harley is a low cost, low tech system when compared to the true performance cartridge systems.  The best systems, used mainly on sport bikes, are externally adjustable for compression and rebound damping (separately and independently), and for spring preload.  It appears that the Traxxion system falls more into this category.  Another option is the Gold Valve Emulator from RaceTech, which gives you the ability to adjust compression damping separately from rebound, but you have to disassemble the fork to make the adjustment.

The latest H-D system uses a three way valve to vary damping based on velocity/pressure, but it isn't adjustable.  Increasing fork oil viscosity would appear to affect this system the same way it does a damper rod, increasing both compression and rebound damping at the same time.  

Jerry

Since I've got my 2007 FLHTCUSE2 parts manual handy, I looked it up. The current setup, uses a damper valve (#46209-06), similar to the Race Tech unit, except I don't know about the adjustable part, so I will bow to Jerry and guess that he's right about them not being adjustable.

The parts count is only one, where items like the damper rod indicate two, so it looks like we're back to the  bastardized setup of one conventional and one modified.

Looks like I'll be ordering another set of Gold Valve emulators from Race Tech to tighten this one up too.

Chief

[grc]

Jerry, oh learned one...  WTF does emulate mean in this context?  What is it emulating?

Terry,

In this case emulate means "mimic", or act like.  Gold Valve Emulators, for instance, are not a full cartridge replacement for the standard fork damper.  They just mimic the action of a true cartridge system by separating the rebound and compression damping functions, and making the compression damping more linear relative to velocity.  When you install these emulators, you drill out the compression damping holes in the damper rods, effectively eliminating any compression damping from the rods.  The emulators sit on top of the rods and take over the compression damping chores, while the rods still handle rebound damping.

The problem with damper rods is that they do not react in a linear manner.  With low speed suspension movements, there is very little damping since the oil flows easily through the fixed size holes.  When the same fork hits a sharp edged bump, resulting in high speed suspension movement, you get extremely high damping since you are now trying to force oil through the same holes at a much higher speed.  The actual damping force increases as a square of the velocity; ie. if you double the velocity, the damping force quadruples.  This is why a damper rod system is mushy on small undulations and dives excessively when braking, but will then drive your arms into your shoulders on a sharp edged bump.

On the other hand, a cartridge system uses a stack of thin spring steel washers to control oil flow through the cartridge.  At low velocity, the shims move very little so you have increased damping compared to the damper rod system.  At high velocities, the shims move more and thus allow oil to flow more freely than the damper rod system, resulting in a more linear relationship between velocity and damping force.  A true cartridge system has two cartridges, one for compression damping and one for rebound.  

Hopefully this didn't muddy the waters even more.

Jerry

[Chief]

Terry,

In this case emulate means "mimic", or act like.  Gold Valve Emulators, for instance, are not a full cartridge replacement for the standard fork damper.  They just mimic the action of a true cartridge system by separating the rebound and compression damping functions, and making the compression damping more linear relative to velocity.  When you install these emulators, you drill out the compression damping holes in the damper rods, effectively eliminating any compression damping from the rods.  The emulators sit on top of the rods and take over the compression damping chores, while the rods still handle rebound damping.

The problem with damper rods is that they do not react in a linear manner.  With low speed suspension movements, there is very little damping since the oil flows easily through the fixed size holes.  When the same fork hits a sharp edged bump, resulting in high speed suspension movement, you get extremely high damping since you are now trying to force oil through the same holes at a much higher speed.  The actual damping force increases as a square of the velocity; ie. if you double the velocity, the damping force quadruples.  This is why a damper rod system is mushy on small undulations and dives excessively when braking, but will then drive your arms into your shoulders on a sharp edged bump.

On the other hand, a cartridge system uses a stack of thin spring steel washers to control oil flow through the cartridge.  At low velocity, the shims move very little so you have increased damping compared to the damper rod system.  At high velocities, the shims move more and thus allow oil to flow more freely than the damper rod system, resulting in a more linear relationship between velocity and damping force.  A true cartridge system has two cartridges, one for compression damping and one for rebound.  

Hopefully this didn't muddy the waters even more.

Jerry

Jerry,

Do you think the parts book is right in that there is only one valve used? The list every other part as qty. 2, but only list the damper as a single. If that is so, I would think the two dampers would need to be different, small holes for the conventional, and larger holes for the modified leg.

Chief

[Twolanerider]

On the other hand, a cartridge system

Ok Jerry, my head is not benefiting from any such dampening effect right now.  Completely spinning in fact.  At a rudimentary level I was familiar with all the differences.  Some from having built a few shocks over the years for cars on the track.  Their work loads and forces against (in terms of geometry, volume and type) are all significantly different though.  So while the fundaments might be similar the practical translations are much different.

Rather than asking the question in systems terms let me put it in applications terms to hopefully gain an understanding that's pertinent to what's going on with these parts right now:

On a bike that weighs 800 or 900 pounds doing the kind of riding that a touring bike is commonly subjected to what difference(s) will the rider feel when moving from the type of hardware we have OE versus what this more sophisticated (which isn't always better) cartridge system from Traxxion Dynamics will do?

[grc]

Don,

The main differences you would notice right away would be less front end dive on braking or gentle undulations in the road, and smoother response to hard, sharp bumps without transferring most of the shock to the rider.  Basically what you get with a cartridge versus a damper rod is more compression damping at low fork velocities, and less at high velocities.  A damper rod system can actually "lock" hydraulically on an extremely rapid movement, while the cartridge will just open further to let the oil continue to flow and the fork to compress.  

To put it in automotive terms, it would be somewhat similar to comparing the ride of a 1979 Lincoln to a BMW.  The next question, though, is whether the Traxxion system at more than $1k is significantly better than a $250 set of emulators and a little labor.   [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Jerry

[grc]

Jerry,

Do you think the parts book is right in that there is only one valve used? The list every other part as qty. 2, but only list the damper as a single. If that is so, I would think the two dampers would need to be different, small holes for the conventional, and larger holes for the modified leg.

Chief

Chief,

I was a little disappointed when I looked at a picture of the "new" dampers for the '06 and later bikes, since the original information made it sound like they went to true cartridge dampers.  I should have known the MoCo wouldn't spend that kind of money.  What you mentioned in your earlier post seems to be the case, that this new valve is similar to the Gold Valve Emulators and is just added to the old damper rods.  

The only info I had was the piece I posted above from the Tech Forum for '06, which seems to indicate that both legs had the new valves.  If the parts catalog states differently, though, I'd believe the parts catalog.  And if there is only one valve, that truly sucks.  One of the things we always strived for in the old dirt bike days was to make sure each fork leg responded exactly the same (spring rate, oil level and viscosity, seal friction, etc.), to eliminate side loading and stiction.  If you have two totally different damper systems, there is no way both legs can respond the same.  

Jerry

[Twolanerider]

 A damper rod system can actually "lock" hydraulically on an extremely rapid movement,

Ok, more than anything that single part of the explanation is illustrative.  Know exactly that feeling from having experienced it many times over the miles.  Trading that for what would be at the same time more controlled and less abrupt would be a real benefit.  It'll never feel like the little bikes do.  But the response will be more akin to how they respond.

[Midnight Rider]

Terry,

In this case emulate means "mimic", or act like.  Gold Valve Emulators, for instance, are not a full cartridge replacement for the standard fork damper.  They just mimic the action of a true cartridge system by separating the rebound and compression damping functions, and making the compression damping more linear relative to velocity.  When you install these emulators, you drill out the compression damping holes in the damper rods, effectively eliminating any compression damping from the rods.  The emulators sit on top of the rods and take over the compression damping chores, while the rods still handle rebound damping.

The problem with damper rods is that they do not react in a linear manner.  With low speed suspension movements, there is very little damping since the oil flows easily through the fixed size holes.  When the same fork hits a sharp edged bump, resulting in high speed suspension movement, you get extremely high damping since you are now trying to force oil through the same holes at a much higher speed.  The actual damping force increases as a square of the velocity; ie. if you double the velocity, the damping force quadruples.  This is why a damper rod system is mushy on small undulations and dives excessively when braking, but will then drive your arms into your shoulders on a sharp edged bump.

On the other hand, a cartridge system uses a stack of thin spring steel washers to control oil flow through the cartridge.  At low velocity, the shims move very little so you have increased damping compared to the damper rod system.  At high velocities, the shims move more and thus allow oil to flow more freely than the damper rod system, resulting in a more linear relationship between velocity and damping force.  A true cartridge system has two cartridges, one for compression damping and one for rebound.  

Hopefully this didn't muddy the waters even more.

Jerry

OK, Jerry...as always, you have done an excellent job of explaining the difference in what I am feeling when riding the Ultra and the Ducati.  Not that I think the Ultra rides bad, because it is what it is...a large, heavy touring bike, but now that I have what I think is an excellent suspension on the rear of the bike, it has made me pay more attention to what's happening on the front end of the bike.  Although my Duc does not have the Ohlin suspension of the 1000S model, it does have a top of the line Showa, in both front and rear, with preload adjustments for both forks and the mono-shock in the rear.  There is no wiggle, regardless of how hard you pitch the bike over entering a turn, or how hard you get on the throttle in the middle and exiting the apex. The model Duc I have is not a pure sport bike, but would be considered a sports touring bike. I know some of that has to do with rigidity of the front end and whether things are allowed to flex out of being parrallel (forks), but the ability of the oil to flow through holes or flex a series of shims according to how much pressure is put on the system, is obviously vastly different.

Don, it will be very interesting to hear about your buddy's bike when you help him with the install of the new system!!

I can see I need to do some more reading about suspension!!

[Twolanerider]

Don, it will be very interesting to hear about your buddy's bike when you help him with the install of the new system!!

I can see I need to do some more reading about suspension!!

Terry, I'm in the same place as your last sentence above places you.  Also now more curiously interested in what his Road King will feel like.  There is a short two miles or so stretch of decent twisties I'll run it through. I think even more interestingly there is a stretch of about 1/4 mile with some washout type undulations in it and a couple miles stretch of highway not too far away that's rain ribbed and corrugated.  Really interested in feeling the differences in all of those.