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[Steve_G]

I just want a choice at the pump.  I've heard that some states require ethanol period.  You can't buy gas that doesn't have ethanol.  I may be wrong, but I think Wisconsin may be one.  I know senator John Thune R-SD is trying to increase the percentage from 10 to 20 in our state.  I know for a fact that ethanol decreases milage, and is hygroscopic.  If we're going to increase ethanol useage by 600%, I can forsee a time when you won't be able to buy any gas without it.  I can guarantee it won't make your bikes happy. 

[Hugh Janis]

because is hygroscopic it can NEVER be used 100%.  The strongest it can be when exposed to the atmosphere is around 95% (the other 5% being water).  I've heard estimates that the energy stored (released on ignition) in ethanol is around 30% less than the same volume of gasoline.  That would cause a significant reduction in MPG as well as HP.  I don't think it will be anything but a fuel additive for these reasons and the others stated above.

Isn't Brazil at nearly 50% ethanol or some number?  Making so much ethanol to stretch their oil supplies has allowed them to be nearly self sufficient.  I know that's a model that's got the world's attention.

[grc]

I just want a choice at the pump.  I've heard that some states require ethanol period.  You can't buy gas that doesn't have ethanol.  I may be wrong, but I think Wisconsin may be one.  I know senator John Thune R-SD is trying to increase the percentage from 10 to 20 in our state.  I know for a fact that ethanol decreases milage, and is hygroscopic.  If we're going to increase ethanol useage by 600%, I can forsee a time when you won't be able to buy any gas without it.  I can guarantee it won't make your bikes happy. 

That's another reason why politicians should never be allowed to get involved in chit they know zilch about (of course, that means that many wouldn't be allowed to get involved with anything other than graft or male cow excrement).  Unless you own a flex fuel vehicle which is designed to run on all combinations from straight gasoline to 85% ethanol, Senator Thune's idea won't fly.  Vehicles have been designed to work properly with up to 10% ethanol for many years, but percentages above 10% will create problems for many/most cars and trucks on the road.  And it definitely won't run worth 2 cents in your Harley.

BTW, on the upside, you don't need to add "Dry Gas" in the winter now that we have all this ethanol already in the gasoline. 

Jerry

[Fired00d]

I  thought some people were working on making fuel out of KUDZU....now there's a plant that is definitely a renewable engergy source, as the damn stuff is all but impossible to get rid of once on a person's property.  It is the Japanese payback for whipping their a$$es in WWII.

I don't think corn is the solution to the problem of oil dependency, and I also don't think we have a lot of reserves left untapped in this country...unless you want to open the AWLR (I'm against that, if you can imagine), or start squeezing oil of of shale (Rocky Mountains...I'm against that too).

Ken...I'm with you...food will win out in the long run.  Folks here in Alabama are planting wheat (unusual) because of the wheat shortage in the world right now.

I'm tellin' ya'll, the REAL problems we face in the next 50 years ain't about oil, it's about WATER, and the fact that there are just too damn many people in the world.

We can live w/o gasoline (we'd be in a lot better shape from all the walking), but we can't live w/o water. It's getting scary and the lack of it is becoming a reality in to many places lately.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[iski]

because is hygroscopic it can NEVER be used 100%.  The strongest it can be when exposed to the atmosphere is around 95% (the other 5% being water).  I've heard estimates that the energy stored (released on ignition) in ethanol is around 30% less than the same volume of gasoline.  That would cause a significant reduction in MPG as well as HP.  I don't think it will be anything but a fuel additive for these reasons and the others stated above.

Isn't Brazil at nearly 50% ethanol or some number?  Making so much ethanol to stretch their oil supplies has allowed them to be nearly self sufficient.  I know that's a model that's got the world's attention.

Yeah, Brazil is using much more ethanol than most of the world.  Big exception - they are producing theirs from sugar cane, not corn. More efficient to produce from cane.  So of course we produce ours from corn.  Now, we own a farm that produces corn, so for us, it's a good deal (price way up) but as a national energy policy, it borders on the idiotic. 

We have plenty of oil just begging to be drilled (much of it on national lands including ANWAR & in the Gulf of Mexico) that boneheaded politicians will not allow to be drilled & refined.  Oil companies remain somewhat nonchalant since when it is drilled & refined (it is just a matter of time) it will be worth much, much more than it is now.  Therefore we the consumer get turned repeatedly in a clockwise motion with a flat headed hand tool into a hard object (screwed).

[LRebel]

We have plenty of oil just begging to be drilled (much of it on national lands including ANWAR & in the Gulf of Mexico) that boneheaded politicians will not allow to be drilled & refined.  Oil companies remain somewhat nonchalant since when it is drilled & refined (it is just a matter of time) it will be worth much, much more than it is now. 

Agree!!!!  Oil companies have the technology to drill with very little chance of disturbing the environment in ANWAR -->Here in Oklahoma deer and other wildlife come right up to the drilling rigs and pumps - no effect on the wildlife in Oklahoma.  There are huge amounts of oil off the coast of Florida & California, but the rich & famous don't want to look at a off-shore rig (but, it's fine for the coast of Texas & Louisiana ).  You are right, in that we will eventually drill in these areas.  The oil companies know this also....and they also know that when they do the price may be $300 per barrel.

[charlie]

The worst part of the energy bill is all the earmarks they put in it. Thats why everything coast so dam much.

[iski]

Agree!!!!  Oil companies have the technology to drill with very little chance of disturbing the environment in ANWAR -->Here in Oklahoma deer and other wildlife come right up to the drilling rigs and pumps - no effect on the wildlife in Oklahoma.  There are huge amounts of oil off the coast of Florida & California, but the rich & famous don't want to look at a off-shore rig (but, it's fine for the coast of Texas & Louisiana ).  You are right, in that we will eventually drill in these areas.  The oil companies know this also....and they also know that when they do the price may be $300 per barrel.

Complete agreement.  Know firsthand about the rigs/pumps in OK & TX - negligible effect & the roads make it easier to hunt. 

Some politicians & enviro groups have succeeded in demonizing most all drilling/exploration, & new refining.  As a result, gas is now about $3 a gallon instead of $1 & oil is closer to $100 a barrel instead of $50. Take the pols like Kennedy who vehemently oppose most business (re:oil) & it's the ideal soapbox.  They always decry oil & when alternatives are offered, we get screwed with this ethanol policy.  When oil is scarcer we will indeed drill it wherever it is to be found.  Enviro concerns about ANWAR are unfounded, but work well for the anti-biz crowd.  $300 a barrel is not all that far fetched, when one considers our oil needs vs oil dependencies on others.

[FNGw/08SERK]

Complete agreement.  Know firsthand about the rigs/pumps in OK & TX - negligible effect & the roads make it easier to hunt. 

Some politicians & enviro groups have succeeded in demonizing most all drilling/exploration, & new refining.  As a result, gas is now about $3 a gallon instead of $1 & oil is closer to $100 a barrel instead of $50. Take the pols like Kennedy who vehemently oppose most business (re:oil) & it's the ideal soapbox.  They always decry oil & when alternatives are offered, we get screwed with this ethanol policy.  When oil is scarcer we will indeed drill it wherever it is to be found.  Enviro concerns about ANWAR are unfounded, but work well for the anti-biz crowd.  $300 a barrel is not all that far fetched, when one considers our oil needs vs oil dependencies on others.

Not to mention the increased Chinese demand due to US citizens funneling their cash to the Chinese via Walmart 

[Midnight Rider]

I guess it all depends on one's perspective...my personal belief is there NEED to be places on this planet that are relatively untouched by man.  There are so very few left...human activity of ANY kind has a definite impact, wherever it happens, and it is generally negative (except where forced to go in a repair damage already done) when it comes to wild places on the planet and the impact we have on the environment.  There is a lot of shale oil trapped in the Rocky Mountains and other ranges in the Western US, and it is becoming economically viable to extract it...should we go into Rocky Mountain NP, Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Glacier NP, etc simply because they contain something that would make human life a little more comfortable for some finite period of time?  At what point, and where, do you draw the line on a finite resource and focus on other alternatives?  Just as I don't think we should always be at the top of the food chain (entering Grizzly country, Lion country, etc.), I don't think we should have unlimited access to the planet's resources for our own selfish needs, particularly when the cost is the loss of places untouched by our greedy hands and machinery.

It's not just about the oil in ANWAR...drilling in Texas is a hell of a lot different than drilling there.  Building roads creates access by means other than two feet, or four.  We are not talking about deer in this case, but one of the last remaining places for ALL things wild.

Just as I do now, I will support every effort made to keep man's hand off of places where wilderness still exists and stands any chance of remaining protected.

[Talon]

Well if many of our elected Representatives weren't in the pockets of big oil, we might have a good alternative fuel by now!  
After the last increase was mandated GM spent millions of dollars fighting the new law instead of working on the technology to get them to the new standard. To meet the deadline they bought the technology from Toyota!!!  

[iski]

Not to mention the increased Chinese demand due to US citizens funneling their cash to the Chinese via Walmart 

Large trade imbalances historically react as pendulums - they go dramatically one direction, then tend to center in a "balance" mode.  At this point, it's decidedly in the Asian direction as to goods produced, & their increased petroleum needs reflect that shift.   We could correct this with tariffs or embargoes, but at this point the politicians have not elected to do so, since we have chosen not to elect the ones that would do so - thus far.

As to places like ANWAR & pristine natural beauty - not so sentimental myself.  Grew up in an area a where common saying is/was "smells like money" when passing a feedlot or refinery.  Miles & miles of well pumpers are in itself a thing of beauty - depends upon the eye of the beholder. Freezing to death in the dark vs a few million miles of happy snail darters & rare rock fungus - my balance shifts towards not freezing to death in the dark in a hurry.  It's a time factor vs supply & likely we who are alive now will not see petroleum depleted.  Our great-great grandkids likely will not, if history is any indicator. 

[spydglide]

why do we keep electing these same type of yo-yos?  Even the pro-big'bizness people agree that the ethanol plan just makes no economic sense at all, but once again the majority of taxpayers get screwed to benefit a special interest.  This is a great country, but it mystifies me as to the poor choices we have for our leaders......usually at all levels of govt.  But, when you compare our leadership w/ other countries......it doesn't look quite as dismal.  Politics !!!  arrrrgggh.  spyder

[iski]

why do we keep electing these same type of yo-yos?  Even the pro-big'bizness people agree that the ethanol plan just makes no economic sense at all, but once again the majority of taxpayers get screwed to benefit a special interest.  This is a great country, but it mystifies me as to the poor choices we have for our leaders......usually at all levels of govt.  But, when you compare our leadership w/ other countries......it doesn't look quite as dismal.  Politics !!!  arrrrgggh.  spyder

Amen, brother.  As to politics, almost everyday makes me want to talk like a pirate.

[spydglide]

Amen, brother.  As to politics, almost everyday makes me want to talk like a pirate.

well, you live right down in the buccaneer waters area......have at it Iski.  har!  spyder