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[Para Bellum]

On this dyno sheet, he overlayed my dyno run (in red) with a dyno run from one of his 110 worked over bikes (in blue), all on the one sheet.

Note that the top lines are actually HP and the lower lines are torque- not sure why they are backwards from most dyno sheets I've seen.

Funny how the curves are pretty much identical to mine- I guess that's why he said I didn't need a custom map, as my curves looked good.

They are backward (HP on top) because the TQ scale (right side) is different than the HP (left side)...HP scale ranges from 30 to 110, and TQ from 75 to 275.  Very strange thing to do, especially since TQ doesn't get much above 125.

[glens]

A well know tuner that suggest you dump the TTS and use a SEPST?
Now that really scares me.
I bet Steve Cole laughs when he reads that kind of stuff.

Why is that scary?  He, like most tuners specialize in using one tuner or another-he happens to like the SEPST, but doesn't say anything bad about the TTS- it's just what he prefers. He did tell me the SEPST does one thing that the TTS doesn't, but I don't remember exactly what.

It's scary for a couple reasons at least.  Foremost is that the SEPST is going to be better than 10%, even deeply discounted, of the price you were quoted, and for no good reason.  That's right.  No good reason.

"The SEPST does one thing the TTS doesn't" would have to be either that it disobeys your directives in several ways when you use it to "smart" tune or that it will standalone datalog.  There are several good and actually useful things the TTS does that the SEPST doesn't.  It's not even close to a wash; the TTS kit is hands-down the better product of the two.

Personally, I'd thank the guy for his time and entertainment, then walk away.

[North Star]

Since I don't want to get into another which tuner is best debate, I'll leave those related comments alone for the most part. I will say that there is more than one tool (which is all the tuning device is) that will get the dyno tuner the end result we are all looking for, and if there was  only one tuning device that every dyno tuner in the world felt was the best, every other company other than TTS would be out of business. If you go over on the big HD forum, everyone there will tell you that Fuel Moto and the Power Commander rule the world. We have our preferred products and vendors, and they have theirs.

I talked to the guy again, and he also suggests re-ringing the pistons, honing the cylinder walls, and bead blasting the pistons. Apparently every 110 he's cracked open (about 12 of them) has had oil behind the valves (??) and have been heavily carboned. He feels that the synthetic oil put in by the factory never give the rings a proper chance to seal, which may explain my oil consumption. Suprisingly to me, this isn't a lot more labour cost since he said he would eat some of it, and on top of that, he gave me a more itemized estimate, which brought it down to about $2,500 total.

I would have to buy the SEPST and the lifters- the rest of the parts he supplies. From what I see the Woods directional lifter and the HQ Black Ops seem to be the most popular- any opinions on that?

Also, I didnt read any comments on the dyno chart- looks great, no?

[glens]

Leaving the "which tuning kit is better" argument alone, as to specific details, there's no good reason whatsoever that you'd need to dump a perfectly capable tool and purchase another which will not bring one thing to the table apart from the guy who demands you do so having a canned map developed on that other unit.  Sure, he'll throw it on the dyno and make a few minor adjustments to suit your individual combination of parts' quirks.  But there's no excuse for not copying the pertinent values over to your software and starting with your interface.  Now, with your revised figures, the new interface has got to handily be above 10% superfluity.

I'd be real curious to know what he does to the stock cams.  If he touches the profiles any at all he'll be taking away valve lift.

Gutting the cat will risk good front O2 sensor behavior unless he also makes modifications to ensure sensor isolation, and if he's going to tune it and leave it entirely open-loop then that'd be something more for me to find issue with.  There's just no good reason for doing that these days, what with variable fuel and all, and that's not even the most important reason to stay closed-loop.

I don't want to offend you but I find the whole thing ludicrous.  I'd just ride it until just before it broke.

[North Star]

Here is a summary of what I've been told by this builder/tuner:

- the 110 is a different animal than the 96 or 103, and doing the usual standard performance mod's won't work the same on the 110 (ie- throwing in bigger cams) (which I think has been shown here many times- I've read of many dissapointments from guys who have put in cams alone, only to find the only thing it accomplished was move the torque curve to the right and raise peak numbers)

- the exhaust flow needs to be 80% of the intake flow for optimum performance

- re-degree the cam to 4 degrees retarded (I know what lift and duration is, but I don't know what this means or what it accomplishes)

- .030 head gaskets

- inspect valve guides and port heads and put on a flow bench, radius valves

- re-use stock pushrods

- "massage" throttle body and exhaust ports

- check crank runout

- re-ring and bead blast pistons, re-hone cylinders

I'm running a Fullsac b headpipe and 4" Rineharts, so I don't need any cat removal.

I mentioned the issues I've read here about, specifically cam bearings and lifters. He said no problem if I wanted to replace them, but of the 110's he's had apart, he hasn't seen any issues with them. Keep in mind he's old school, so he doesn't spend hours surfing these forums reading up on other peoples issues- he is just stating what he has seen.

The issue he has seen, and on 110's with lower miles than mine, is the poor sealing piston rings, and the enevitable carbon build up on the pistons and in the chambers. He says due to the oil and the high heat of a stock motor, all these engines will allow some oil past the rings and into the chamber. Believe it or not, he said he recommends people who have had his 110 package done to just run a quality dino oil over synthetic, as the modified engine will be breathing properly, and won't run so excessively hot (which he thinks is why HD even recommends synthetic in the 110's- because they knew hot excessively hot they would run).

Also, I remember the one thing he said the HD tuner does that the TTS doesn't- have the ability to tune each cylinder individually.

Finally, he won't be "throwing it on the dyno and make a few minor adjustments"- the package includes a custom dyno tune.

Again I'll ask about the dyno chart- that is the end result, and I'd say the curves and the numbers look as good as anyones.

I'd love to hear from builders like Hillside and Dewey's heads to see what they think of all this.

[glens]

Thanks for the clarification.

It pretty much all sounds like reasonable standard fare.  Increase compression a little with a shorter gasket, decrease it a little by retarding the cams (maybe move the curve a skosh to the right?), etc.  I can't say whether the proposed cost represents a good value for you.  As to others' disappointment with "just cams" I submit the folks more than anything had chosen the wrong cam.

He'll make the piston deck heights the same both cylinders if they're not?   And what if the crank runout needs addressing?  No doubt that'll be an extra charge, and if I were going through this process then knowing how he'd plan to rectify that issue that would also factor into my decision.

You may have misunderstood something he said about the difference between the tuning kits.  Not only will the TTS do both cylinders individually, there are actually more (and important) things that can be adjusted with it vs. the SEPST.  Moving the cams probably gets you to where a couple of the tables TTS has, which SEPST doesn't, would be beneficial to the end result.  If he's the one who has the misunderstanding he should take a few moments and get up to speed with what's been going on with the TTS.  Again, were I in your situation I'd be insistent he use the tuning interface I already have.  If he can use the one he sure ought to be able to use the other.  I rather wonder if he doesn't have something other than TTS in mind while referring to it as "TTS".

Does he work with or disable the ECM's closed-loop operation?

Dyno charts really don't interest me beyond viewing general trends.  I believe they're fairly manipulatable and they portray only an operating characteristic which I almost never employ.

[North Star]

I wish there were more people around here that tuned with the TTS. The only one on the TTS website in the whole province is near me, but he doesn't have a dyno, plus I have heard mixed opinions on him.

Fortunately the way the bike sits, I don't think I need a custom tune, and if I did, I suppose I could read up on how to do a V tune. I owe that to the map provided by Fullsac.

Regardless, I agree if I did performance work it would be better to have it tuned with the TTS, especially since I already own one.

Thanks for the info Glens.

[dayne66]

I had a SERT...couldn't get a good tune....may have been my local HD shop though!

Now have TTS....cooler, no ping at all, better MPG....and just as much power!

[spydglide]

I has a SERT...couldn't get a good tune....may have been my local HD shop though!

Now have TTS....cooler, no ping at all, better MPG....and just as much power!

Is this comparison on the same motorcycle?  spyder

[glens]

Fortunately the way the bike sits, I don't think I need a custom tune, and if I did, I suppose I could read up on how to do a V tune. I owe that to the map provided by Fullsac.

Yes, it really would be in your best interest.  Even with the bike the way it sits, I'm confident you could obtain a little better something over the way it runs now with that "canned map".  To be sure, the calibration you got from Fullsac is an excellent starting point.  It is, however, more likely than not that your particular combination of parts and their individual characteristics is not exactly the same as the one Steve used while developing that calibration.  Frankly, I'd be surprised if Steve hadn't at least suggested you might want to polish it a little.

You've always got the option of restoring the ECM back to that calibration, so don't be shy to try/apply a few v-tune sessions.  If you only wind up with a few percent VE change here and there you are close enough already.  Trying to get less change than that between sessions is where you start wasting time.

Whatever you wind up doing, please take the time to report back and offer us closure.  :)

[dayne66]

Is this comparison on the same motorcycle?  spyder

Yes...same motorcycle....different guy tuning though.

[1sharprdkg]

Here is a summary of what I've been told by this builder/tuner:

- the 110 is a different animal than the 96 or 103, and doing the usual standard performance mod's won't work the same on the 110 (ie- throwing in bigger cams) (which I think has been shown here many times- I've read of many dissapointments from guys who have put in cams alone, only to find the only thing it accomplished was move the torque curve to the right and raise peak numbers)

- the exhaust flow needs to be 80% of the intake flow for optimum performance

- re-degree the cam to 4 degrees retarded (I know what lift and duration is, but I don't know what this means or what it accomplishes)

- .030 head gaskets

- inspect valve guides and port heads and put on a flow bench, radius valves

- re-use stock pushrods

- "massage" throttle body and exhaust ports

- check crank runout

- re-ring and bead blast pistons, re-hone cylinders

I'm running a Fullsac b headpipe and 4" Rineharts, so I don't need any cat removal.

I mentioned the issues I've read here about, specifically cam bearings and lifters. He said no problem if I wanted to replace them, but of the 110's he's had apart, he hasn't seen any issues with them. Keep in mind he's old school, so he doesn't spend hours surfing these forums reading up on other peoples issues- he is just stating what he has seen.

The issue he has seen, and on 110's with lower miles than mine, is the poor sealing piston rings, and the enevitable carbon build up on the pistons and in the chambers. He says due to the oil and the high heat of a stock motor, all these engines will allow some oil past the rings and into the chamber. Believe it or not, he said he recommends people who have had his 110 package done to just run a quality dino oil over synthetic, as the modified engine will be breathing properly, and won't run so excessively hot (which he thinks is why HD even recommends synthetic in the 110's- because they knew hot excessively hot they would run).

Also, I remember the one thing he said the HD tuner does that the TTS doesn't- have the ability to tune each cylinder individually.

Finally, he won't be "throwing it on the dyno and make a few minor adjustments"- the package includes a custom dyno tune.

Again I'll ask about the dyno chart- that is the end result, and I'd say the curves and the numbers look as good as anyones.

I'd love to hear from builders like Hillside and Dewey's heads to see what they think of all this.

I work on my old car some, I am not a Harley engine builder but IMO most of the above sounds like smoke he is blowing up your pants leg. One of your "builder" points was (re-use the stock pushrods), that seems foolish to me. You/he is doing all this work and not installing adjustable pushrods. "Massage" throttle body?  A lot of this does not sound right to me.

[North Star]

I work on my old car some, I am not a Harley engine builder but IMO most of the above sounds like smoke he is blowing up your pants leg. One of your "builder" points was (re-use the stock pushrods), that seems foolish to me. You/he is doing all this work and not installing adjustable pushrods. "Massage" throttle body?  A lot of this does not sound right to me.

I think his point "exhaust flow should be 80% of intake flow" is why he doesn't recommend overkilling the intake flow. He disagrees with larger throttle bodies for that reason too, so he recommends a light porting (matching?) to clean it up a bit.

As far as the pushrods, I don't know. I never asked "why not adjustable pushrods?", but maybe I will. I don't know what the advantages of them are.

[North Star]

Yes, it really would be in your best interest.  Even with the bike the way it sits, I'm confident you could obtain a little better something over the way it runs now with that "canned map".  To be sure, the calibration you got from Fullsac is an excellent starting point.  It is, however, more likely than not that your particular combination of parts and their individual characteristics is not exactly the same as the one Steve used while developing that calibration.  Frankly, I'd be surprised if Steve hadn't at least suggested you might want to polish it a little.

You've always got the option of restoring the ECM back to that calibration, so don't be shy to try/apply a few v-tune sessions.  If you only wind up with a few percent VE change here and there you are close enough already.  Trying to get less change than that between sessions is where you start wasting time.
Whatever you wind up doing, please take the time to report back and offer us closure.  

Maybe I'll try a V tune this spring. Honestly, I glanced at the info on the CD that came with the TTS, and I don't recall that it seemed real simple to do, but I should probably give it a more attentive read. If I get stuck, I know there is plenty of support on here. Thing is I get frustrated easily when I try to do something that I don't know enough about. Any idea if there is a Youtube link to a "TTS V Tune for Dummies" video?  

[glens]

Sorry, I know of no "for dummies" video on the subject.  Read through the latest tuning guide available at http://www.mastertune.net/files/Tuning%20Files/Delphi/Manuals/

If you have any questions, feel free to ask.  It's really not rocket science.

For what was described as being done, I don't think it's ass-smoke at all.  I don't know the monetary value but there's definitely value there, and were I doing that list of things I'd re-use my stock pushrods in a heartbeat.