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[Hoist!]

Hoist, to me, after looking at lots of dynos, the RH duals seem to produce the most HP, but at the expense of torque in the lower rpms. Compared to a V&H dual that's not stepped, the V&H's are better down low. Granted, the seat of the pants dyno may not notice the difference, it's just what shows up on a dyno.
I'm sort of a pipe freak, I've had them all. Rineharts, V&H, FAt Cat, slip ons, modified this and modified that.  It all boils down to what you like personally and more importantly, how it feel to you on your particular bike. A pipe like the Fat Cat can sound TOTALLY different with different motors and especially cams. I wish someone would tell me what the perfect pipe is so I could stop adding supplies to build a chrome fence.  

That's about what I figured by now. That's why I'm using the S&S. I just like 'em! They sound right for me. My guy's telling me to use the TD's with them. I'm putting them on the stock headpipes first. I'll be breaking it in during winter. If the heat's too bad or a lack of top end, I'll add the TD headpipes at the 1K Dyno-tune. Thanks man. Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

That's about what I figured by now. That's why I'm using the S&S. I just like 'em! They sound right for me. My guy's telling me to use the TD's with them. I'm putting them on the stock headpipes first. I'll be breaking it in during winter. If the heat's too bad or a lack of top end, I'll add the TD headpipes at the 1K Dyno-tune. Thanks man. Hoist!  8-)

Hoist,
Sounds like you've got a good plan there.    I'm taking my B&O in for it's 1K service next Tuesday and also getting it dyno'd.  It runs great now with the 84 map in it, so I'm hoping for a little better with a custom map.  Time (and a print-out) will tell.  Will let all of you know the results when I get them.

Red

[Hoist!]

Hoist,
Sounds like you've got a good plan there.    I'm taking my B&O in for it's 1K service next Tuesday and also getting it dyno'd.  It runs great now with the 84 map in it, so I'm hoping for a little better with a custom map.  Time (and a print-out) will tell.  Will let all of you know the results when I get them.

Red

Thanks Red. I'm glad it's running right with just the map. I don't think PC has maps for the 110 yet. My friend's going to talk to Dyna and S&S to get their best recommendations for the initial set-up, since I don't want it Dyno'd until 1K. He said he'd be able to get one close enough since I'm on break-in and won't be using the top end very much and not until the second 500mi. He's looking forward to getting on the Dyno to give it a good tune. He's had 2 other 110's already and is really good at setting motors up. Looking forward to you results. Have a Great New Year Red! [smiley=drink.gif] Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

Thanks Red. I'm glad it's running right with just the map. I don't think PC has maps for the 110 yet. My friend's going to talk to Dyna and S&S to get their best recommendations for the initial set-up, since I don't want it Dyno'd until 1K. He said he'd be able to get one close enough since I'm on break-in and won't be using the top end very much and not until the second 500mi. He's looking forward to getting on the Dyno to give it a good tune. He's had 2 other 110's already and is really good at setting motors up. Looking forward to you results. Have a Great New Year Red! [smiley=drink.gif] Hoist!  8-)

Hoist,
One thing I've noticed with the true duals is I don't get exhaust "pops" when doing engine decels or when shifting.  I used to get those all the time with my 02 Ultra, which had the stock header pipes, SE mufflers, and the SE AC, but only had the one-time chip download instead of a SERT.  I never had that bike dyno'd, as I figured for that basic of a setup, it didn't really need it.  Perhaps it did?  :-/  I don't use the upper range on my bikes.  I think I only put the 02 up to the rev limiter once, just to do it.   I don't think I've had the SEUC up past 4500 rpms yet.  In fact when they dyno it, that will probably be the first time that engine goes to the rev limiter.  My bike will only be the second '07 SEUC they've done, but will be the 3th or 4th 110.

Hope you have a great New Year too [smiley=alcohol.gif] [smiley=beerchug.gif] [smiley=balloon.gif] [smiley=balloon2.gif] [smiley=balloon3.gif]
Red

[Hoist!]

Hoist,
One thing I've noticed with the true duals is I don't get exhaust "pops" when doing engine decels or when shifting.  I used to get those all the time with my 02 Ultra, which had the stock header pipes, SE mufflers, and the SE AC, but only had the one-time chip download instead of a SERT.  I never had that bike dyno'd, as I figured for that basic of a setup, it didn't really need it.  Perhaps it did?  :-/  I don't use the upper range on my bikes.  I think I only put the 02 up to the rev limiter once, just to do it.   I don't think I've had the SEUC up past 4500 rpms yet.  In fact when they dyno it, that will probably be the first time that engine goes to the rev limiter.  My bike will only be the second '07 SEUC they've done, but will be the 3th or 4th 110.

Hope you have a great New Year too [smiley=alcohol.gif] [smiley=beerchug.gif] [smiley=balloon.gif] [smiley=balloon2.gif] [smiley=balloon3.gif]
Red

Hey Red. The decel popping is definitely tuning. It happened from the early CV carb days when "leanness" became HD's key to staying one step ahead of the EPA, barely. Sealing the carb adustments after improper settings were made the norm. Then drilling out the adjustments and rejetting, etc. became the cure. Same with the FI. You have to dial-in every engine, no matter what. I don't think the stock headpipes are the cause of the popping, the stock factory settings are. Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

... I don't think the stock headpipes are the cause of the popping, the stock factory settings are. Hoist!  8-)

I think you're absolutely correct.  Harley has to do whatever they can to keep the air cooled engines meeting the ever tightening EPA standards.  Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on which camp you're from, the end of the air cooled engine is frightfully close.  [smiley=end.gif]  There's not too much more they can do to them to make them run any cleaner, except cats on all models, along with the O2 sensors, and make them run as lean as possible.  All leads to bad juju I'm afraid.  I've spoken with a few dealers and all acknowledge that with the tightening of the regs, the water-cooled engine is the future of the MoCo.   So save them air-cooled machines, if you're like me, and think that's the only "real" Harley on the road.  I've seen reports in some of the MC rags, that the MoCo is getting ready to introduce a water-cooled Sportster.  Some of the writers thought that it might have been for '07, but are now thinking '08 for sure.  I've also heard rumors that they are working on an 1800cc version of the V-Rod engine and testing it in an FLHTCU-type configuration.   [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Red

[Hoist!]

I think you're absolutely correct.  Harley has to do whatever they can to keep the air cooled engines meeting the ever tightening EPA standards.  Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on which camp you're from, the end of the air cooled engine is frightfully close.  [smiley=end.gif]  There's not too much more they can do to them to make them run any cleaner, except cats on all models, along with the O2 sensors, and make them run as lean as possible.  All leads to bad juju I'm afraid.  I've spoken with a few dealers and all acknowledge that with the tightening of the regs, the water-cooled engine is the future of the MoCo.   So save them air-cooled machines, if you're like me, and think that's the only "real" Harley on the road.  I've seen reports in some of the MC rags, that the MoCo is getting ready to introduce a water-cooled Sportster.  Some of the writers thought that it might have been for '07, but are now thinking '08 for sure.  I've also heard rumors that they are working on an 1800cc version of the V-Rod engine and testing it in an FLHTCU-type configuration.   [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Red

I tend to agree with that Red. I said that when the V-Rod was first introduced. The beginning of the end! I thought my '03RK was my last new HD and I'd keep it forever. That was until I saw the '07 SERK. Now I'm saying that will be my last. I hope it never ends, but like all good things...! Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

I tend to agree with that Red. I said that when the V-Rod was first introduced. The beginning of the end! I thought my '03RK was my last new HD and I'd keep it forever. That was until I saw the '07 SERK. Now I'm saying that will be my last. [highlight]I hope it never ends[/highlight], but like all good things...! Hoist!  8-)

Amen Bro, I hope the same.  But I fear it won't last much longer.  [smiley=bigcry.gif]

[Rhino]

The other side.

First you need to determine what level of mods you're planning to do. If all you're doing is "open air" A/C and pipes, a stock '07 HD can handle this with no ECM modifications. This is per HD. Therefore your bike should be able to run fine, without doing any damage by running too lean, no worse than as stock. The narrow band closed loop system is supposed to account for this. Do I believe this? NO. The stock isn't even right! However, this allows me to pull off the PC and O2 Elims and get to any dealer to look at my bike under warranty. This also gives me the flexibility of having who I want to do my service and mods instead of being locked into a dealer. I'm not saying all dealers won't allow you warranty flexibility, but this way any dealer should have to honor it. I've thought long and hard about this one. I think this solution makes sense. What am I missing? It is a tough choice! This arguement doesn't apply at all if you're planning any more work than we're talking here. Hoist!  8-)

Oh my Hoist, are you failing me?  The narrow band sensors only work at cruise, NOT at accel or decel, or any range of movement, only at cruise.  Therefore, you will run really lean when you accelerate.  Not the time to be worrying.  Do this.  Accelerate after the motor warms up.  With your AC & pipes and stock ecm, Do a roll on to redline and hit the cutoff switch and coast to the side of the road. Let it cool and pull a plug.  It will be white as snow.  This is a bad thing.

[kojak]

Hoist,
Rhino is right on! My before dyno chart (completely stock) was way too lean over most of the rpm range. Just changing the exhaust and ac means you are pumping more air through the engine at higher rpms and will make the situation worse imo! Happy new year! [smiley=drink.gif]

[RedDevil]

The other side.

First you need to determine what level of mods you're planning to do. If all you're doing is "open air" A/C and pipes, a stock '07 HD can handle this with no ECM modifications. [highlight]This is per HD[/highlight]. Therefore your bike should be able to run fine, without doing any damage by running too lean, no worse than as stock. The narrow band closed loop system is supposed to account for this. [highlight]Do I believe this? NO[/highlight]. [highlight]The stock isn't even right[/highlight]! However, this allows me to pull off the PC and O2 Elims and get to any dealer to look at my bike under warranty. This also gives me the flexibility of having who I want to do my service and mods instead of being locked into a dealer. I'm not saying all dealers won't allow you warranty flexibility, but this way any dealer should have to honor it. I've thought long and hard about this one. I think this solution makes sense. What am I missing? It is a tough choice! This arguement doesn't apply at all if you're planning any more work than we're talking here. Hoist!  8-)

I think you missed Hoist's point.  He's not saying to run the engine with a stock EFI map and SEAC (or equivalent) and freer breathing exhaust pipes under normal operations.  He was just extolling the virtue of the PC, that's it's removable, and therefore undetectable when hooked up to a diagnotics computer when going in for warranty work, vice the SERT, which actually remaps the EFI and leaves it's "mark".   Now the best thing to do in that case is find a dealer, like mine, that will state, in writing preferably, that any exhuast/EFI mods done, as long as it's done by them, won't void the warranty.  That makes the decisions a little easier, IMHO, on what to do then.   (Big caveat here though, I took their guarantee to be that as long as I stayed external of the engine...so if I decided to put cams in, then all bets may be off)

Just my $0.02 here.   :-/
Red

[Hoist!]

I think you missed Hoist's point.  He's not saying to run the engine with a stock EFI map and SEAC (or equivalent) and freer breathing exhaust pipes under normal operations.  He was just extolling the virtue of the PC, that's it's removable, and therefore undetectable when hooked up to a diagnotics computer when going in for warranty work, vice the SERT, which actually remaps the EFI and leaves it's "mark".   Now the best thing to do in that case is find a dealer, like mine, that will state, in writing preferably, that any exhuast/EFI mods done, as long as it's done by them, won't void the warranty.  That makes the decisions a little easier, IMHO, on what to do then.   (Big caveat here though, I took their guarantee to be that as long as I stayed external of the engine...so if I decided to put cams in, then all bets may be off)

Just my $0.02 here.   :-/
Red

Hey Red, Thanks for saving me the trouble. You hit it on the head! I'm not talking about riding the bike this way. Hell, you can't even ride a bone stocker this way! it don't matter when their closed loop kicks in. It's not set up for us, it's set up for EPA. I'm just talking about meeting all of HD's req'ts so you can have your cake and eat it too. All I need this thing to do is get me to a dealer to fix anything without giving them the ability to blame me or something else on a problem. All I want is mufflers right now anyway, so why not do it in a way that I can keep my 2 Year Warranty too! Believe it or not, there are some of us here that will be happy with that! Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

 ... I can keep my 2 Year Warranty too! Believe it or not, there are some of us here that will be happy with that! Hoist!  8-)

You got that right Hoist...ya got to protect that two year warranty.  In my case it's a seven year warranty  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

[Rhino]

OK OK,

I believe we are all on the same page, just saying it differently...except...IF you have a problem, engine related, AND you were running the invisible PC, AND you removed it and brought the bike in for service with the UNPISSED ON ECM,  AND you were running aftermarket PIPES and EXHAUST and did it per the MOCO blessing as stated... then you SHOULD be OK.

BUT THEN if I read this all right, IF you ran the SERT at the time of the change to aftermarket pipes and exhaust, which BTW makes the engine run SAFER in the AFR range, THEN the WARRANTY is Null and VOID?

UHHUH< That must be  MOCOSENSIBILITY.  

I get it.  MOCO is EPA controlled within.  Yup, bound to happen, just like that new 08 Dyna I saw in the neighborhood the other day with a Suzuki sticker on it so as to confuse me when I saw the radiator and watercooling system.  

[RedDevil]

OK OK,

I believe we are all on the same page, just saying it differently...except...IF you have a problem, engine related, AND you were running the invisible PC, AND you removed it and brought the bike in for service with the UNPISSED ON ECM,  AND you were running aftermarket PIPES and EXHAUST and did it per the MOCO blessing as stated... then you SHOULD be OK.

BUT THEN if I read this all right, IF you ran the SERT at the time of the change to aftermarket pipes and exhaust, which BTW makes the engine run SAFER in the AFR range, THEN the WARRANTY is Null and VOID?

UHHUH< That must be  MOCOSENSIBILITY.  

I get it.  MOCO is EPA controlled within.  Yup, bound to happen, just like that new 08 Dyna I saw in the neighborhood the other day with a Suzuki sticker on it so as to confuse me when I saw the radiator and watercooling system.  

Uh...kinda, sorta, I think   [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=confused5.gif]