I heard your bike on you tube. Sounds just a little louder than stock without the cc gone, which is exactly what I want. I have a 09 CVO Ultra and will most likely do the same thing. Any negatives to this that you can see so far. I live in St. Charles so we might not be to far apart. What do you think as far as impact on warranty?
Jim, thank you for the detailed instructions and pictures and link for the coring drill bit. When you drilled out the cat, you said to "take your time and drill with a constant pressure" - how long do you estimate you spent drilling?
It sounds a little louder than stock on the video, but it so hard to tell on the computer. What is your opinion?
Definitely sounds like it revs quicker too.
The next step requires a 1.6" coring drill bit that is 14" long. You can get one of these form McGillis Warehouse for $25 + shipping.
http://mcgillswarehouse.com/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemID=154120006&IN=SILVERBRAZEDDRILLBIT,14
This bit is designed for drilling concrete and has a 5/8" UNC shaft for accepting a chuck. This is a lot bigger than anything I own, so I purchased a 5/8" rod with UNC threads from Home Depot. I cut it to a more reasonable length and mounted it to the bit with a nut and lock washer. I ground down the end sticking out of the bit to get it to fit my 3/4" drill chuck.
Has anyone investigated the pipe for the non-California TC96 bikes to see if they don't have the catalyst? If the '09 models follow the same pattern as the '08, the only bikes with a cat are the California bikes, the CVO's, and the HDI (export) models. Reason I ask is that some may prefer to just replace that section of the system with a non-cat version, versus drilling out the pipe. :nixweiss:
:2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: thats great foto
thanks for the post\info... the mufflers are also a killer in the flow department.. as the exhaust gases must do a complete 180 to get out the muffler.. very poor flow. I have noticed a slight improvement in power. here is a sound bite taking off with the fullsac 2'' cores.. www.jeffsautobodyshop.com/hd2.wmvWhat? No burnout! Lol.
Jim,
Me thinks you could sell this coring bit to another member, who wuld use it ,then sell it to another member, etc.
Nicely documented.
BTW, I believe that hunk of Platinum is worth more than the drill bit. People may start to steal CATs off of bike as they are doing here with cars in Boston using Sawsalls. SUVs are easy because of ground clearance.
These guys are out of the bit and will be a couple on months before they get more, anyone have another source???
1.8 will not work. 1.6 just makes it. If anything you need to go smaller.
I bet they had a big run on the 1.6's ;)
Jim, excellent work my friend, :2vrolijk_21: you're the kind of guy that really makes this forum great
...they're indeed out of the 1.6s, I ordered a 1.5, should do the trick, spent over an hour and a half lookin' for a 1.6 at another source...and nothin'...and the price is right for a one-use tool
Carlos, Where did you find a 1.5??? Thanks Greg
Carlos, Where did you find a 1.5??? Thanks Greg
...same site that Jim blessed us with, I'm thinkin' just one size down should be fine: :2vrolijk_21:
http://mcgillswarehouse.com/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemID=154120005&IN=SILVERBRAZEDDRILLBIT,14"LX1.5"W,with5segments
Jim, THANK YOU for the great instructions and pictures for removing the catalytic converter.
I can't help but wonder how many of you doing and following this thread were riding in the days before you could buy aftermarket exhaust or Screamin Eagle products ?
I can't help but wonder how many of you doing and following this thread were riding in the days before you could buy aftermarket exhaust or Screamin Eagle products ? Reading the thread and all of the ideas and responses brought back a lot of 30 year old memories for me.
Jim,
Are yo saying the bikes NOT in California DO NOT have the CC's in the muffs or the header pipe altogether? I would assume you mean the mufflers since you and the others that have done this do not live in Cali.
Rob
Rob, I haven't taken one apart, but it is my understanding that the standard 09 NON-CA bikes do NOT have cats in the headers. The CVO 110's are the ones that have cats. The 110's apparently take the emissions over EPA limits.
Ahhhh, that makes sense now. ALL CVO's have them in the headers (09's that is). Any idea on the 08's? I have a friend that has one.
Jim
Do you remember how much the 2009 96inch header cost? and maybe a part number? I dont feel comfortable about doing the work myself. Also someone said that dealers cant tune a motor that has the CATS removed. That cant be true can it? A super Tune should work fine as it has in the past.
Sparky
Another cat bites the dust....I went to work on the exhaust last night and followed Jim's instructions to remove the catalytic converter. I used a 1.4" silver braised drill bit from McGills Warehouse since that is all I could get my hands on at the time. It probably took me an hour to drill out the catalytic converter and then.......music to my ears. I love the sound of a straight pipe Harley without the restrictive catalytic converter.
To anyone considering this project, let me tell you that anyone can do it with the right tools. I ended up renting a drill from Home Depot since the drills that I have were too small, that cost me $7.00. I also bought a bench grinder in order to grind the 5/8" rod to fit in the drill, that was $44.00. I already had a hack saw to downsize the 5/8" rod. I attached a motorcycle tie down to the drill so I could keep forward pressure...this was after I was getting fatigued from using the drill (I wish that I would have thought of this sooner). The catalytic converter material is some hard chit, but it is gone now.
I returned the drill to Home Depot first thing this morning and now I am going to begin the job of grinding down the welds on the muffler core and replace it with the 2.0" Fullsac core. I expect this job will be a lot easier and take less time than drilling the catalytic converter.
Jim, THANK YOU for the great instructions and pictures for removing the catalytic converter.
I don't even see how you'll get the individual probes for tuning for each cylinder separately, with that cat installed in the main pipe! Not really sure how you'll do it with that crossover underneath either. Some other things to think about! When we tuned my bike with the FatCat, we had 2 probes stuck in the exhaust, both going thru the muffler and into each separate head pipe for each cylinder's measurements. :nixweiss:
Hoist! 8)
Hot Damn.. I just joined the F.T.C. Club....Couldn't resist Howie>>> Greg
Texas,
Do tell!! Give us a ride report about the heat. Right now when I check the temperature with a infared digital temp gun it reads 409 degrees at the area where the cat is located and about 230-260 evrywhere else on the pipe. 110 on the stock mufflers.
Hot Damn.. I just joined the F.T.C. Club....Couldn't resist Howie>>> Greg
I love it Greg!!! Very good use of the FT acronym!!! :2vrolijk_21: ;)
Still don't understand how you get the individual testing probes for each cylinder in, with that exhaust!
Hoist! 8)
When we dyno,just going to use O2 Sensors in each pipe ...
The bike's narrow band sensors, or removing them and use the holes (which I don't see how you'll seal properly)? Either one sounds skeery! :nixweiss:
Hoist! 8)
Completed surgery on mine about an hour ago. I used a 1/2" chuck, 5 amp drill. It was a 3 hour tour including cool down time for the drill motor. The wife got pissed, but the refrig did help some. Don't leave it in too long or condensation will build up on the brushes and it won't run. The drill motor got really hot, let some smoke out it a couple of times, but that stench probably needed to get out anyway. In the end the drill was still going round and round when I broke through. Reflashed, with the map Jim mentioned and fired up the ride. Sounds RIGHT, finally! The 2" cores are good for me. I will install the SE Air Breather tomorrow night and take er for a ride.....
Work sure is getting in the way of these higher priorities! And yeah, FTC !! You'd think they built these bikes for a bunch of environmental wackos.
Do all 09's have CATs or just CVO's like in 07?
Just a thought, what about using an impact wrench rather than a drill? Maybe I will give it a try if I can ever get the bit.
I ordered from ebay diamondbladesrus on Sept 26 and now October 7 and still no bit.
Just a thought, what about using an impact wrench rather than a drill? Maybe I will give it a try if I can ever get the bit.
I ordered from ebay diamondbladesrus on Sept 26 and now October 7 and still no bit.
Just a thought, what about using an impact wrench rather than a drill? Maybe I will give it a try if I can ever get the bit.
I ordered from ebay diamondbladesrus on Sept 26 and now October 7 and still no bit.
my 2 cents...buy a good 'corded' drill before takin' on the cat!!!...you know you need one, I borrowed an old inferior one from a friend that wasn't make it to the end... seems many of us have tossed the old Black & Deckers and are solely relying on our battery packed ones for all our needs...love my new drill, $100 bucks at Lowes, killer torque :2vrolijk_21:
O2 sensors will fit in snugly where the factory sensors go. Most header pipes have O2 Bungs in them now. Most companies(except V&H) have placed them in such a place you can get to them with an O2 sensor removal socket or can get to it with a 7/8" wrench. Factory headers, D&D, Rinehart and most the others have figured this out. There is no problem with the seal as all the sensors have a metal crushable gasket on them that will snug right up to the O2 bung. The issue is that sometimes the factory runs them in tight and it may take a little effort to get them out. You can tell if they bind so I sometimes have to lubricate the threads and run them back in and out. If you ever put new headers pipes on make sure to run a tap in the O2 bung as most of them will chrome the pipe after the bungs are installed. The bung threads will have Chromed up as well making the O2 sensor "gaul" on removal. ALWAYS USE ANTI-SEIZE when putting plugs or O2 sensors back in. You also do not need to overtighten them, just snug up plus a little. If a bike has O2 bungs and I can get my sensors in there I always try to tune this way. The copper tubes and vacuum pump method work but also can be problematic with the cooper tube collapsing under the heat. I really have to pay attention to this to make sure readings are consistent. Either method will yield good AFR data you just have to pay attention. One more little thing that can get overlooked is that these wide band O2 sensors used for tuning need to be calibrated in free-air before each bike. Keeps the data consistent.
By the way how do you get the qoute boxes?
Greg, after you click 'reply', scroll down below the area where you type to find the 'Topic Summary' area, at the right of each post you'll see an 'Insert Quote' for each of the posts, just click on the one you want to show, then you can cut them down or highlight them or whatever...works real good once you get the hang of it
Mine is OUT! Just a few details that might help the next guy.
The entire cc in mine measured just 5 inches, I think some have been up to 7 inches long.
I used thread cutting oil to cool the bit...went about a half inch at a time. Then dunked the bit in the bowl full of thread cutting oil to cool.
The bolt is a 3" long 5/8 thread bolt with a 15/16 socket to fit. My core bit is 1.5" X 17" from ebay.
20+ year old black and decker drill did just fine.
Place some towels over the wheel and brake disc, I did not want any of the cutting oil on the disc. Then started without the muffler to blow the crap out...surprised to see no debri at all.
Little stinky and smokey until I got the cutting oil burned out.
Are you still going to get the 2" fulsacs and do you need a new owner for your 1 3/4 fulsacs.
I also just saw your ipod holder...who makes that?
I went to a rental tool company ... rented a bigggg..gg drill and the cored bit
drilled thru the cat in 8 or 9 minutes ... minimum cost
I went to a rental tool company ... rented a bigggg..gg drill and the cored bitGood move! I tried the rental places first, just could not find one that had core bit the right length and size.
drilled thru the cat in 8 or 9 minutes ... minimum cost
:nervous:
Understand through the excellent information provided that removal of the catalytic converter from right side will help a cvo 110 engine breath significantly better as cylinders only fire on at a time. Is there a catalytic converter in header that supports the left side or is there only one catalytic converter to support both sides of exhaust? If there are two catalytic converters, is the second in the header pipe under frame or left muffler ?
Should only be one before the junction where the left pipe kicks off.
Guys:
I just got time to post my Dyno results:
1) Installed 96inch motor head pipes (No Cat)
2) Installed Heavy Breather
3) Reinharts Mufflers (Standard baffle)
4) HD Super Tuner
90 hp
110 Torque
It sure sounds good and the bike is fast, I think I might be done, maybe a 2 into 1 fat cat next year if I could get 5 to 10 more HP and some more torque. Although it I am very happy with the power.
I was riding a 2003 CVO Road King that I did major work on and it had 109 hp and 114 torque.This bike feels very similar to that without all the top and bottom end motor work and without the loud pipes (Borazilla)
Sparky
Guys:
I just got time to post my Dyno results:
1) Installed 96inch motor head pipes (No Cat)2) Installed Heavy Breather
3) Reinharts Mufflers (Standard baffle)
4) HD Super Tuner
90 hp
110 Torque
It sure sounds good and the bike is fast, I think I might be done, maybe a 2 into 1 fat cat next year if I could get 5 to 10 more HP and some more torque. Although it I am very happy with the power.
I was riding a 2003 CVO Road King that I did major work on and it had 109 hp and 114 torque.This bike feels very similar to that without all the top and bottom end motor work and without the loud pipes (Borazilla)
Sparky
Can't find the coring bits on Ebay now! :o
ROb,
Diamonds bits has them on Ebay $42.00 10.5 x1.5 Dry Concrete Core bit>>>Greg
Is 10.5 long enough?
You bet and then some, No issues with length still had 3-4 inches to spare....Greg
Thanks Greg. do yo have a link by chance?
Anyone that has already removed their CAT is your bit still good enough to drill another one???? Would you like to part with it? Name your price.
:pumpkin: :bananarock:
Brad
Another cat bites the dust....I went to work on the exhaust last night and followed Jim's instructions to remove the catalytic converter. I used a 1.4" silver braised drill bit from McGills Warehouse since that is all I could get my hands on at the time. It probably took me an hour to drill out the catalytic converter and then.......music to my ears. I love the sound of a straight pipe Harley without the restrictive catalytic converter.
To anyone considering this project, let me tell you that anyone can do it with the right tools. I ended up renting a drill from Home Depot since the drills that I have were too small, that cost me $7.00. I also bought a bench grinder in order to grind the 5/8" rod to fit in the drill, that was $44.00. I already had a hack saw to downsize the 5/8" rod. I attached a motorcycle tie down to the drill so I could keep forward pressure...this was after I was getting fatigued from using the drill (I wish that I would have thought of this sooner). The catalytic converter material is some hard chit, but it is gone now.
I returned the drill to Home Depot first thing this morning and now I am going to begin the job of grinding down the welds on the muffler core and replace it with the 2.0" Fullsac core. I expect this job will be a lot easier and take less time than drilling the catalytic converter.
Guilty -
Thanks for the idea about using the rachet tie-down! Sure made a long boring drilling session much more bearable. Hooked one end to the drill handle and the other to the passenger footrest mount. Worked great - my cat is now gone! Also BIG thanks to Jim Kerr for the original thread and pics!
Jim, THANK YOU for the great instructions and pictures for removing the catalytic converter.
A buddy of mine has an 08 SEUC. I let him use my stock mufflers from my 09 for an experiment. Keep in mind HIS has the CC in the mufflers, mine do not.
He removed the baffle by cutting the 2 welds. Then he cut this piece of the baffle off from the end piece
Guilty -
Thanks for the idea about using the rachet tie-down! Sure made a long boring drilling session much more bearable. Hooked one end to the drill handle and the other to the passenger footrest mount. Worked great - my cat is now gone! Also BIG thanks to Jim Kerr for the original thread and pics!
Jim Kerr: great info, thanks for the post.Removing the cc will not change the fuel/air because the EFI will adjust in closed loop. Therefore the engine temp will remain the same due to the same air/fuel ratio before and after.
Questions though: removing the CC would increase airflow through the engine which would make it even leaner and likely run hotter than the bike would come from the factory unless one changed the fuel/air mixture with a SERT. Without the SERT, back pressure would be less so would there be better/more heat dissipation that one would feel (?). Oil and head temp would be down, I think. You said it ran cooler. I am trying to understand this stuff. Can someone help me out? Thanks.
Road Hog
Road Hog, I am in the same situation, I have a 09 SERG , thinking about removing the cat and putting in 1.75 Fullsacs. I am going to gain much and is it ok to do these two and not put in a SERT ? Thanks everyone BLWI am no expert, just one of those guys who spends too much time reading mags and talking to guys who are experts.
Thanks, guppythrash, for the info.There are a number of riders here who have done the same mods ( cc drilled, fulsac 1 3/4, air cleaner & SERT). The HP numbers seem to run around upper 80's lower 90's and torque 100 to 110. I have not done any dyno runs yet.
Here is what I am wrestling with concerning my 09 SEUC. The bike has enough power for my two-up touring so that's no problem. It does not need to be cutting edge fast; 100 mph is fast enough. After owning an '02 RK 95" stage two that I finally sold because I could not afford to keep it running any longer and tired of being stranded in the middle of nowhere with a scooter that wouldn't run or run well, I want my bike to go 100K miles without rebuilds, get decent mileage/range and I want it reliable. I understand the 110 has some issues. For me it is about seeing things, riding technique and fast curves, not a bike project. In a perfect world, I would buy just gas and tires, perform regular maintenance. Lots of each. I ride some 20K eash year.
What do you think I should address in this engine to reach my goals with this bike? Popping the CC seems reasonable. What else?
Road Hog
One more question, is the heavy breather the one that turns forward in a cone or is there a different back plate to put on the one that comes stock on the SERG ? Thanks, BLWYes, I know Jim was asked that by someone else and that is the one he said he used.
The cat is 7" long.
I highlighted in yellow where the cat is being removed per this thread. There is clear clean flow there.
I highlighted in orange where there is cat remaining per this thread using the 1.6 core bit. There is restriction there.
My concern is this,
The rear header pipe has a clear unrestricted flow to the final "two" of the exhaust to exit as it pleases..
The front header has a very "bumpy" or "challenged" path to flow the exhaust to get to the final "two" of the exhaust to exit as it pleases.
The rear header flows well, the front doesn't. How can that be good for efficiency?
What you're describing makes it sound like the reverse of what's been happening for years previously. Before the rear cylinder had such a difficult path to the left muffler that most of the exhaust esaped out the right side. What you're describing makes it sound like a lot of the front cylinder's exhaust will now run out the left.
Without actually flow testing the pipes it's all WAG and eye-ball guesstimates anyway. That being so do you think you're seeing so much restriction as to be a problem or enough restriction to be just good healthy back pressure? Or somewhere in between?
No one is laughing as dead cats are very serious. :huepfenjump3: The cat I removed was 5" long.Your right about yours but I went back and look at earlier post and Jim said his was about 7" long and per my measurements mine is also You could be hitting a fitment or something when you measure from the engine side. Looking into the pipe from the back after the removal seems pretty unobstructed and the flow certainly increased. See Jim's picture and comment's in Reply #8,Look again at his post 8 the rear header pipe has an unimpeded flow path, then look at the bottom (front header) and you can only see a small portion of it. above. That's what I saw when I did mine. I don't know that you can differentiate between the two header pipes at this point.Look at post 8 again, You're right that the flow is not perfect but is sure seems to do the job. No offense Greg but getting the job done is not what I'm looking for, I want it to flow all it can.
What makes you say the rear if I said rear, I meant front.header does not flow well? BTW, could not see your orange the orange is like a dark dark yellow, it's the section on the bottom of the pipe.highlight in the photo.
I did not core mine out. I used a 3/8" 12" long carbide drill on an drill extension. It was a alot more work but I was able to remove alot more of the cat. During these cold winter night that are coming I may try to remove additional remains. I only have a little bit remaining on the bottom. I have added 1 3/4" Fullsac baffles and for the price the performance has improved greatly. I can still hear the radio. Best dollars I have ever spent on an exhaust upgrade.
:bananarock: :bananarock:
Brad
Brad,
Did you simply drill around the outside of the cat and finish it off with a chisel?? Looking for ideas to get the rest of mine out>>> too bad there isn't a good 1 3/4 hole saw that would take the rest of it ...Even thought about pulling the pipe, possibly cutting it on the back side ,pulling the rest out and MIG weld it it back..Based on the dyno info I've seen I'm just wondering if we are not giving a little up. in the higher RPM range because of it being a 1 1/2" opening vs the rest of the pipe being 1 3/4" Thanks Greg
Brad,
Did you simply drill around the outside of the cat and finish it off with a chisel?? Looking for ideas to get the rest of mine out>>> too bad there isn't a good 1 3/4 hole saw that would take the rest of it ...Even thought about pulling the pipe, possibly cutting it on the back side ,pulling the rest out and MIG weld it it back..Based on the dyno info I've seen I'm just wondering if we are not giving a little up. in the higher RPM range because of it being a 1 1/2" opening vs the rest of the pipe being 1 3/4" Thanks Greg
what did you do differently that made it fit?
Yes I drilled around the CAT then I bought a 3/4" x 1/8" X 36" peice of steel stock and ground a chisel point on it. I cleaned about 95% of the CAT. I may work on removing more during the cold days of winter.
:bananarock: :bananarock:
Brad
The Lumberjack method. Right on! Thats how I would have done it.
I bet an air chissel would make the cat turn into a lot of small pieces pretty quick too.
Steve
'\
Your right about yours but I went back and look at earlier post and Jim said his was about 7" long and per my measurements mine is also
You're right that the rear header does not have a straight path but from what I saw, it is not impeded. It is certainly not perfect. The photo flattens out the view and may make it look "impeded." Note that even in your revised drawing, the front header flow takes two small 90* turns and is thus "impeded."
Look again at his post 8 the rear header pipe has an unimpeded flow path, then look at the bottom (front header) and you can only see a small portion of it.
No offense Greg but getting the job done is not what I'm looking for, I want it to flow all it can.
The next best alternative may be to purchase a used set of 96" header pipes where someone has "upgraded" to aftermarket headers. If I could do that and then re dyno, I'd know if there is any difference....
Greg, when I removed mine, I had my friends Street glide beside me for comparison, with the core removed both header pipes dunp into a common collector before traveling through the drilled cat, with the cat in place there was a noticeable difference in exhaust volume and exit speed between the two, after the 110 was louder and appeared to have a stronger exhaust then the 96, im guessing that changing the entire system would yield very little in the way of seat of the pants performance.
Agreed, but I respect Silver-Black's opinion. He sounds as anal as I do some time. (Again, no offense!!) A large part of me wants the inside of the pipe to be as smooth and free flowing as possible. When I did the work, there was really nothing else available but to try to fit an 08 exhaust which I have seen done. I'm happy that I seem to have a great exhaust for the cost of a bit and cores, about $150 and a fun evening hanging out with a friend to do the work. There may be some difference by getting more material out but I doubt it is significant. I'm very happy with sound and performance now and the other's who have followed the procedure seem to agree.
My personal opinion on the subject is that it isn't critical to get every piece of the cat out. The cylinders do not fire at the same time. The two header pipes combine into a collector that not only forces the exhaust through the cat it also has to make a 90 degree turn to get to the left side. The core bit boars a hole through the cat that is exactly the same inner diameter of the exhaust pipe providing a straight shot to the right pipe. The 90 degree turn for the left pipe is already after the cat.
Gas, like water and/or electricity, will take the path of least resistance. I suppose there may be a bit of back-pressure or turbulence if you don't remove everything, but It certainly better than what you have with the cat in the pipe. And you can't beat the price.
I have a fairly good "in" at my Harley shop and have asked for a 96" header, when they start changing pipes on other bikes.
SBB
I think what you have done is the best that can be done for the dollars involved.
I looked at that option and decided it wasn't the approach I wanted.
I appreciate all your pictures and video's that show what you have done.
After deciding to not drill the cat I just wanted to show that while the drilling would open it up and give you better exhaust flow there would still be restriction in the system.
Using dummy logic I felt that since the 110 was bigger than the 96, it only made sense to me that it could use better flow than a 96 which has no restrictions at all in the header pipe.
Had to rework the mounting bracket under the transmission to shim out the header about a 1/2".Ummm... I guess you can disregard my question about this in the other thread. :oops: ;D
That translated to the inch I needed for clearance at the rear axil.
The 09's are wider at the rear than the previous years.
Like a dumba$$ I just assumed everything would fit perfectly.
It didn't, but with a little help it does now.
:2vrolijk_21:
IMHO, swapping the original headers on the 110 with 96 headers is the cleanest option but coring a 1.6 or 1.5 inch hole in the cat would be so close to a clean pipe in air volume that you would have to have a very sophisticated ass to be able to tell the difference in performance between the two. The pressure in the headers would decrease substantially with both options, as would the heat, while the airflow increased. With the cat hole, the velocity of the air would be faster but I think the air volume would be damn close. With the cat hole and Fullsacs, the slightly higher pressure in the header might be just the right amount of back pressure. Don't have experience with that, tho.
Well said Road Hog. The 1.6" coring bit is the diameter of the core when removed. The outside diameter of the bit is an exact match to the ID of the pipe. It takes every bit of cat out inside of the right pipe. The slight piece left in the collector is a minute amount. It was undetectable on the Dyno. We compared my results to many different 110" engines with various exhaust configurations. Back pressure is also a good thing. It helps the engine with torque. Torque is king when you are at max gross weight and want to pass someone.
That said, however, if someone wants to buy a 96" non-cat header and then wants to go through the hassle to install it then go for it. Personally I just don't think it is worth the cost/hassle. It is a lot of work to remove the entire exhaust system and replace it with virtually the exact same thing when the only objective is to remove a minute amount of remaining cat material. At that point after market headers would seem to be a better choice.
a friend of mine did this today. :coolblue: it’s not for the faint of heart. the info bout using a ratchet tie dow strap is the chits.
afterwords looking in the collector you can see half of the front pipe. how bout a fulsac 2” in left and 1.75 in right?
definitely cooler
TN I like the way you think. I was wondering the same thing last night. If you restrict the right and open up the left side would the flow be more balanced. Wonder what Steve at Fullsac would think about this idea.
TN
I have a 9" long 1.5" coring bit ordered. I'm assuming that since the cc is set back into the pipe a bit and up to 7" long, I am going to need to cut the 5/8" UNC threaded to around 7" or so, in order to allow the bit to cut the entire was through the cc before the drill hits the end of the exhaust pipe. That was a question.
Second, what is it that I am grinding off on the 5/8" UNC? Am I just making sure that it will fit into my drill? Do I need to grind it at all if it fits into the end of my drill as is?
OK luckily my SERG wont be here till march 09, so let me see if I am getting this correct. After removing the cat I will need to install a 96in motor head pipe w/o cat, a heavy breather( are we talking air filter here?) and new mufflers? Also what is the hd super tuner, fullsacs and the cert ya'll mention. I have read all the posts but dont think I actually saw what they were. maybe I am trying to take in tmi at once here! Thanks
The cat is only 5" long. It sets back from the opening to the end of the cat about 7". The drill bit itself should be long enough to get through. You shouldn't have to use an extension UNC. The longer it is the more difficult it will be. The drill will wobble.
His advice may have been perfect with the 14" core bit, and he did a heck of a nice job showing us how to do it. the problem is searching all over and ending up with a 9" core bit. If you read what I wrote there, his advice regarding the 9" bit cannot be accurate. Please do the quick math here again.
He said the cc is 7" into the pipe and then extends for 5". That's 12" into the pipe. Then he said I won't need an extension. How do you get 9" to cover 12" without an extension? Maybe I need to rub the core bit just the right way. :orange:
Oh, and as I said, and it's an easy measurement, my cc is actually 9.5" into the exhaust pipe, which makes it even more difficult.
I seldom have a problem getting the same mufflers that came off back on, They are pretty much sized to fit, used mufflers from another machine can be a problem, but Harbor Freight sells a small muffler expander that will quickly remedy that
I have a 10" core bit I used about 6" of 5/8 all thread for the arbor, double nutted it, then got a Dewalt bit that goes in the drill and has a 3/8 square end on it. slip a socket on there and away you got and yes my 10" went inside the pipe while I was drilling it, that's why I used the all thread, just like Jim suggested. . Worked great... Patience, drill slow and shoot plenty of WD -40 on the bit to keep it cool Greg
Yeeee Haw. Another CAT bites the dust! It sure does look small when it comes out of there (I know....that's what she said). I really anticipated this being problematic, but this was a heck of a lot easier than getting the welds off the mufflers. I'm guessing that the core bit would make it through another one, but I don't think I would want to be the one trying to do so. It looks like the bit gets pretty worn after just cutting one of these out. I suppose I'll keep it around in case a local friend wants to give it a try, before ordering a new one. Thanks for all the help guys!
I haven't put my mufflers back on yet. They are gutted and awaiting receipt of my Fullsac inserts. I did start the bike for just a few seconds with no mufflers (with and without converter) and that puppy roars without the converter. I'm hoping the Fullsac's arrive Fri, Sat, or Monday.
Does anyone have a spare bit they would part with or maybe one that could have enough left for one more cat. I'm striking out all over the place. I've also been quoted up to a couple of hundred bucks for a bit here locally. Did the baffles this past weekend and the a/c is on the way. Thanks, Let's Roll
Did anyone else understand what he just said? I just drilled out my CAT last night, so I've been pretty intimately involved with what's there are where things go, and that just confused me totally.
I understand that the CC is about 5 1/16" long That makes senseand I'm assuming you are saying that the chamber where that is located is about 7" long.That also makes sense After that, I'm not sure what you are saying.You have a 5" long CC in a 7" chamber When you remove the CC, it's all goneThe only part gone is the part you drilled out. the chamber is an oval shaped chamber so the front and the rear pipe can merge together. You only drilled out a part of the cat except a very small bit around the circumference of the pipe. It's completely opened upWrong again after drilling out the CC.
Yes, the pipe splits back into 2 pipes after the CC, so there is only one CC to worry about. Maybe I'm missing a point here.
So, are you saying that you would have to cut out the bottom half of the edge of the cat converter to open it up YES, if you want to open the pipe up completely![/color][/b] or that you think there is another cc in the lower half of the chamber?There is only one CC. It fills the entire oval collector area. It seems that you are saying that the front pipe is still being partially blocked by the cc.Bingo! We have a winner. Yes, after you drill out the part you can get to there will be more flow BUT, the front header will still have a restricted flow.
So, are you saying that you would have to cut out the bottom half of the edge of the cat converter to open it up YES, if you want to open the pipe up completely! or that you think there is another cc in the lower half of the chamber? There is only one CC. It fills the entire oval collector area. It seems that you are saying that the front pipe is still being partially blocked by the cc.Bingo! We have a winner. Yes, after you drill out the part you can get to there will be more flow BUT, the front header will still have a restricted flow.
Guys, very good discussion... My $.02:
I think Jim Kerr mentioned this before, by using a drill to remove whatever % of the cat you're getting to, you're creating flow for both headers. Air is a gas which when flowing, will follow a path of least resistance. When I drilled mine, I could see into both headers. The front header gas may have had to turn or bend more than the rear but it clearly had more flow than with cat. The question is would removing this additional section of cat provide more flow? Considering that the cylinders do not fire together, I do not think so though I have not measured. Then, even if you get more flow.... the important question.... do you get more power? Since the engine needs some back pressure, I again have doubts. I can only say that from stock to no cat and flasks in one evening was a very noticeable difference. Jim measured these and I think you can find his numbers (pre race tune).
On the last question, these mods and the A/C will give the motor more air, and not fuel so you will be running lean. Under 4000 rpm's the closed loop system will try to compensate so a few miles to the dealer should not have any effect or damage. But get the tune done asap to richen up your a/f mixture. (OK, $02 x 2) 8)
Of course, I just had another thought. If the front exhaust is now being somewhat diverted and passing over the lower part of the CC, and now pretty much all of the exhaust is now flowing together with the rear exhaust and mainly out the right side pipe, we have basically created our own 2 into 1 pipe, with some leakage to the left side pipe. Like I said, just a thought.
I'm consistently beating rice rockets on my bagger with zero engine mods :)
A stock bagger consistently beating rice rockets?
Drill bit, $15. Fullsac baffles, $150. The facial expression of the rice rocket drivers after I blow them away -- PRICELESS!!
:huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:
What rice rockets are ya beating with a FD? :nixweiss:
Any large RR will blow away most any FD, no matter what engine's in it let alone a stocker, if the guy has balls and knows how to ride! I like blowin past em too. And many don't have the nerve to keep up. But those that KNOW how to ride will kill ya every time. You can't compete with 200HP and 300 lbs less weight! ;)
Hoist! 8)
I suppose we could be beat by a moped in the right circumstances, but the rice rockets I have raced have zero torque (including some 1200's). They aren't designed to drag race. They are engineered to run tracks at high speeds. I'm sure a good pro driver could beat me, but I haven't met up with one yet that can do it in the city. I own them up to about 120 MPH or so. They try, but just can't catch me until I have to slow down to maneuver through traffic. Surprisingly enough, the SERG does darn well in weaving between cars. Actually does better at slower speeds than rice rockets. Torque is also king when you have to slow down and accelerate fast in traffic. I seriously leave them in the dust every time. By the time they start building enough speed to catch my lead we have to slow down, weave between cars and do it again.
HeHe!!! Sounds like me and you gotta ride together sometime Jim!!! ;) :2vrolijk_21:
Hoist! 8)
Okay, buckle your seat belts and get ready for this question. Why not just block off the left side after the converter chamber for a home made 2 into 1 system? Then we have the dummy dual on the left side already.
Okay, buckle your seat belts and get ready for this question. Why not just block off the left side after the converter chamber for a home made 2 into 1 system? Then we have the dummy dual on the left side already.
Weld a steel frying pan to the end of the right pipe and when you stop to ponder how well blocking off the left pipe will work you can fry a few eggs and cook some bacon based on how many RPM's you twist. Also another thought, since you will not need the guts from the left side muffler you could remove them and use the pipe on the left side to store your cereal and fruit so when you stop to ponder blocking off that left pipe you can have desert to go with the eggs and bacon!
Pondering makes me hungry!
I thought the 2 into 1 inherently provided better performance, and it sounded as though the current system is close to the 2 into 1, with some performance drain by letting some of the gases flow to the left side. Perhaps my take on things is a bit rudimentary.
Okay, it's time for me to stop thinking tonight and put my brain in holiday mode (how can I get in, eat, and get back out without having to talk to anyone?) Anyway, I hope all of you have a great Thanksgiving. BTW, I just had that bowl of cereal and it hit the spot. Good idea Silver-Black.
Can someone take a picture of the front header pipe CAT and the rear header pipe CAT. I am trying to understand what is going on here but I do not have an 09. My experience tells me that any restriction in the exhaust flow path will impact performance. I would like to visually see exactly what everyone is describing.
Thanks
Thanks for the detailed description. I would think that there should be some differences then in the VE tables for tuning. I have tuned a few, let me look at the data and see if it reveals anything unusual. Looks like there is still some restriction so that would effect the tune to some degree. If the tune is effected then performance would be held back a little as well.
BTW, another case in point on the right pipe being used more than the left is to look at the OEM baffles being pulled out of the bikes. In my case, the left OEM baffle looked brand new while the right one clearly showed signs of heat and wear (this is most visible in the center where the exhaust changes direction).
The left side is only under a load when back pressure builds in the right pipe, which forces air to take the path of least resistance (e.g. the left 90 degree crossover). When we swap the right side to free flow baffles we remove the majority of the back pressure. This is why everyone sees such a remarkable difference in performance after installing Fullsac's and drilling the cat. It was a night and day difference on my bike. It was like I installed a different engine. I'm consistently beating rice rockets on my bagger with zero engine mods :)
Then it would be senseless to get two performance cores , Only the right core is important , Is that the point ?
I believe someone addressed this that had cut the exhaust in front of the converter and removed it in its' entirety. You may want to look for posts with a photo of the converter completely removed or close to those posts. It may be in this thread or it could be in the thread on "Installing Fullsac Baffles on 09 CVO". I think I remember something about them being bonded somehow, but you'd have to find the post to be sure.
You were two miles west of my house when you passed the Claysburg exit on Rt. 99. When you're heading this way again, shoot me a pm. There's always a cold one waiting in the garage. Were you up at No 1 Harley in State College ?
Does anyone know if the CC is pressed in or bonded to the pipe somehow ? Just curious...
Actually, I've never been to that dealer. I heard it's a nice place. A few of us are planning to take a ride there this spring to check it out. My sister lives in State College, so I make some regular trips there. I've stopped at Apple Harley before, which I'm sure is your closest dealer. Do they still have the rally in Altoona? We went there last year and I don't remember seeing anything about it this year. We did go to Lakemont Park for the build-a-bike year end party. Anyway, I will try to remember to PM you if we're heading over your way.
Steve at Fullsac conducted before and after A/F measurements and saw no change after the removal of the cat. This would suggest that the flow did not improve enough to lean out the mix. Perhaps the cat is not as restrictive as it visually appears, at least with the stock cams and heads.
Anyone have any dyno data to suggest otherwise?
The computer controls the fuel air mixture. Not a surprise that the F/A ratio didn't change. You need to measure the volumetric efficiency of the engine before/after to gauge the difference. That is basically how much air the engine can pump. The cat causes back pressure, which reduces the efficiency of the engine; therefore, the power output is reduced. More Air in/Air out = more power. We did this test on my bike and confirmed the theory. The bike gained more power on the dyno after the cat was removed with the OEM exhaust remained the same and no tuning changes.
FWIW, it doesn't take a scientific experiment to figure out that the cat is causing back pressure. I'm attaching a pic of it cut out. This is very dense and restrictive material. It most definitely reduces the power output of the bike. H-D would never install these if it weren't for the EPA breathing down their neck.
Jim, the computer only adjusts the F/A mix while in closed loop mode. When in open loop, the ECM does not adjust the F/A to account for changes in V/E. I beleive that any increase in V/E realized from the removal of the cat would cause the mixture to become lean when in open loop.
Your other thread on the Fullsac installation suggests that you did not do dyno runs before and after the cat removal. I was trying to discover if anyone had actually measured the difference made by removing the cat.
The 110 needs gobs of flow to perform. That's what Jim's reffering to. You limit the amout of flow by all the additional back pressure you impose on motor with the exhaust system. To get these 110's to perform, you need to OPEN THEM UP!!! IN and OUT!!! ;)
Excellent explanation Jim! :2vrolijk_21:
Hoist! 8)
Jim, the computer only adjusts the F/A mix while in closed loop mode. When in open loop, the ECM does not adjust the F/A to account for changes in V/E. I beleive that any increase in V/E realized from the removal of the cat would cause the mixture to become lean when in open loop.
Your other thread on the Fullsac installation suggests that you did not do dyno runs before and after the cat removal. I was trying to discover if anyone had actually measured the difference made by removing the cat.
Jim, the computer only adjusts the F/A mix while in closed loop mode. When in open loop, the ECM does not adjust the F/A to account for changes in V/E. I beleive that any increase in V/E realized from the removal of the cat would cause the mixture to become lean when in open loop.
Your other thread on the Fullsac installation suggests that you did not do dyno runs before and after the cat removal. I was trying to discover if anyone had actually measured the difference made by removing the cat.
even those do not have a cat in the head pipe. HD does not make a Cal specific bike, that's why we have issues, they make all the bikes from factory to Cal specs. the difference is the mufflers
I can only upload one picture per post. I chose the charts that showed the major changes. Stock, Baffle/Cat Removal, Tune. We also did numerous test in between.
Jim, I appreciate all the information that you have shared with us on the site. It has been very informative. If you have the dyno chart showing the before and after results of the cat removal, please post it. Doesn't matter if the results were obtained before or after the baffle install so long as the only change was the removal of the cat. You can add the picture to this post.
However, instead of me spending more of my time printing, scanning and uploading charts, I think it would be better for you to do your own runs on your own dyno.
For those that might be interested, McGill have the 1.6 coring bits in again. Let's Roll
Who is Mc Gill , do you have a link , 1.6 cores may be not-too-loud .
Sorry but that's the loudest I've laughed in a long time. I totally enjoyed that question. Not making fun of you, but I can't stop laughing. That was priceless.Must have lost something in the translation. ;D
McGills is where you can buy the core bit to drill out your CC.
http://mcgillswarehouse.com/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemID=154120006
:beerchug:
See what you guys have done, when I bought mine in 07 they were $14.78
Somebody needs to go over there and put a post showing how cheap you can get these bits.
This is a good example of why CVOHarley is an awesome discussion board. We are a community of people that are helping each other, not trying to make a couple of bucks off of our fellow riders. I'm sure glad I found this site and am proud to be a member.
:bananarock:
I second what Jim just said.....It's saved my thousands upon thousands of dollars, hours of time and frustration, and have met some really great people here...that you can't put a price on that!.....Greg
Removing the cat obviously makes a difference in performance. Guys haven't been removing them for years just for fun. It is simple physics. However, instead of me spending more of my time printing, scanning and uploading charts, I think it would be better for you to do your own runs on your own dyno. Nothing I say or post is as powerful as actually seeing the results first hand. Experience is a good teacher.
FWIW, the least destructive way to perform the cat/no-cat test is to buy a 96" header from a dealer or on ebay (they don't have a cat in the header) and do two runs (one stock and one with the 96" header w/OEM mufflers). It is a bit more work, but you can expand the test by using Fullsac baffles or SE slip-ons. The dyno sequence would be: 1) Stock run; 2) stock header w/performance exhaust; 3) 96" header with OEM mufflers; 4) 96" header and performance exhaust. All tests should be performed with the stock ECM basemap (no SERT tune). Post the charts if you do these runs. I'm sure a lot of folks would like to see the results.
Please give us a report about the problems or none by mounting this standard-non-cat-header .
I'll probably go with the SE super tuner (race tuner) unless someone has experience with a proven alternative for the 2009 110's.
Thanks for the info Steve. Do you have the TTS Mastertune on your bike? Are you able to avoid costly dyno time using the Mastertune?
Please give us a report about the problems or none by mounting this standard-non-cat-header .
Picked up my bike today. I had the shop remove the stock 110 cat header and replaced with a 96" , 2009 stock header without any cats inside. As found Dyno test with the stock cat header was 79.4 hp and 98.7 tq with a SE A/C and Rinehart slip on Eagle Beaks and stock SSERT map (205UJ003). After the header replacement and dyno tune session results were 93.7 hp and 115 tq. Sounds about the same, maybe just a bit louder. Power felt good.
Also installed Wild 1 Chubby 575 bars. Did not have to replace any hyd lines for those who will be asking. The bars feel so much better, both hand position and height.
Now for some nice riding weather!
Picked up my bike today. I had the shop remove the stock 110 cat header and replaced with a 96" , 2009 stock header without any cats inside. As found Dyno test with the stock cat header was 79.4 hp and 98.7 tq with a SE A/C and Rinehart slip on Eagle Beaks and stock SSERT map (205UJ003). After the header replacement and dyno tune session results were 93.7 hp and 115 tq. Sounds about the same, maybe just a bit louder. Power felt good.
Also installed Wild 1 Chubby 575 bars. Did not have to replace any hyd lines for those who will be asking. The bars feel so much better, both hand position and height.
Now for some nice riding weather!
Yeah , that sound great , but it should be possible to mount the 96cui-non-cat-header on an SERG without making a tune , i guess , because there is a different AC . Did the header fit perfect or did you have any kind of problems ?
Can you show us a pic ( with your new handlebar ? )
Yes, I use the Mastertune software on my new 09. As for avoiding costly dyno time? Yes and no. After spending 40k on a new dyno and a sound surpressed and ventilated room to operate it in, I pretty much have all the free dyno time I want. To really answer your question, the V tune does work well for the home tuner. Better yet, If your using my parts, I will give you a base map that's very, very close. We call it "plug and play".
Steve
Yes, I use the Mastertune software on my new 09. As for avoiding costly dyno time? Yes and no. After spending 40k on a new dyno and a sound surpressed and ventilated room to operate it in, I pretty much have all the free dyno time I want. To really answer your question, the V tune does work well for the home tuner. Better yet, If your using my parts, I will give you a base map that's very, very close. We call it "plug and play".
Steve
Please give us a report about the problems or none by mounting this standard-non-cat-header .
Wow , that is the answer we all wanted to hear , thank you , you did yourself alone i guess . Or are you a mechanic ? :2vrolijk_21:Yep I did it alone and nope I am not a mechanic, I mostly panic :nervous: when I work on my bike.
Is the TTS only working on windows plattform or also on Apple-plattform ?
Is the TTS only working on windows plattform or also on Apple-plattform ?
This has all so far over my head I can't see high enough to spot the bottom.
Here's my question - If I change the headers to true duals will I be able to eliminate the CC? If I remove the CC with it void my warranty? I'd like to keep the stock mufflers, just like the looks of the diameter with the stretched bags, change the baffles to fullsac 2" , and do the stage 1 - with that will I notice much improvement?
Or, what can I do to increase both hp and torque and not void my warranty? With all that's been said about problems with the 110 I don't want to cause myself an unnecessary problem down the road.
This has all so far over my head I can't see high enough to spot the bottom.
Here's my question - If I change the headers to true duals will I be able to eliminate the CC? If I remove the CC with it void my warranty? I'd like to keep the stock mufflers, just like the looks of the diameter with the stretched bags, change the baffles to fullsac 2" , and do the stage 1 - with that will I notice much improvement?
Or, what can I do to increase both hp and torque and not void my warranty? With all that's been said about problems with the 110 I don't want to cause myself an unnecessary problem down the road.
This has all so far over my head I can't see high enough to spot the bottom.
Here's my question - If I change the headers to true duals will I be able to eliminate the CC? If I remove the CC with it void my warranty? I'd like to keep the stock mufflers, just like the looks of the diameter with the stretched bags, change the baffles to fullsac 2" , and do the stage 1 - with that will I notice much improvement?
Or, what can I do to increase both hp and torque and not void my warranty? With all that's been said about problems with the 110 I don't want to cause myself an unnecessary problem down the road.
Jim:
Thanks for the detailed instructions and photographs about removing a CC. I asked my dealer today about a CC on a SERG and was told that they were only in CA bikes but they will be in all '10 models. When I told him about your bike he said you either live in CA or somehow bought a CA bike. I ordered the core bit and have a friend who is going to help me. I'm also going to add the fullsac 1 3/4 in baffles. Thanks again for the all the great info. By the way, I love the color of your bike.
James, why don't you just purchase a non-cat head pipe from HD and swap out the cat header. Much easier than what you propose to do and that way, you have the cat equipped head pipe should you ever have to bring the bike in for emission testing?That`s the way :2vrolijk_21:
James, why don't you just purchase a non-cat head pipe from HD and swap out the cat header. Much easier than what you propose to do and that way, you have the cat equipped head pipe should you ever have to bring the bike in for emission testing?
James,
A core bit won't remove all the catalytic converter, just half of it. There's a thread somewhere on the forum where Steve at Fullsac explains this, posted pics and offers help. If you don't have the tools, I'd recommend removing your header pipes and sending them to Steve. He'll cut them in half, clean out both sides and weld them back up for you. I just did a set yesterday that was core drilled and here's a picture of it right after I cut the header.
(http://)
Does anyone have an idea what a non-cat head pipe will cost if it buy it from HD?
Part number is 66848-09. You can get it from Zanotti HD in PA for $314. There are several on ebay that look like they will go in the $150. to $200 range if you can stand the aggravation.
You can check with you local dealers. People are now taking off the stock 96" headers since V&H are finally shipping the super duelies. My dealer SM put me in touch with a guy and I bought his for $100. Even though I bought the core drill bit I decided that was not the way to go. Anyone want one?I check with three local dealers very often....
I do not believe there are any Cats on the 07. I just installed a set of Full Sac 2.25" baffles in a 07 CVO ultra and it had none. DocDoc, The 07 and 08 CVO's Had Cats in the inlet end of the Mufflers, nothing in the headpipes.
Just when you think everything is going along well, then. . .
Attempted the removal of my CAT over the weekend. Had my Mcgills coring bit all set up along with my electric drill, oil and a cup of coffee. I'm going slow and steady with continious pressure, removing the bit and applying some oil every few minutes. Just when I thought I made it through the CAT because the bit showed less resistance. To my fricken surprize the end of the bit broke off inside the headpipe about 80% through the CAT. I'll be ordering a new headpipe from somewhere now and rethinking cost saving do-it yourself options from now on. I know alot of guys have done this with great success, but just wanted to share the possibilty of this happening to someone else. I spoke with a friend of mine who is a contractor and he said it's not the first time he's seen the cutting portion of the bits break off. Live and learn. . . :oops:
I bought a non-cat headpipe and the 1 3/4 baffles from Steve at FullSac. The sound is better but not exactly what I want. I had Rhinehart TD on my RKC and they were too loud. What do you guys think about 2 vs. 2 1/4 as far as sound is concerned?
I was just getting ready to change out my head pipe with a non cat one and was going to use stock mufflers for a while will there be a problem with it running lean
All the people trying this method are going the hard way IMO. You may still be able to salvage your header.
Just cut the sucker in half, clean out the guts, weld it back together, you can't see the weld under the heat shield anyway! I know there are a couple ways to "gut a cat", but this way is the best and easiest, all you need is a welder.....they are all over the place.
Think of the time and money involved.
The next step requires a 1.6" coring drill bit that is 14" long. You can get one of these form McGillis Warehouse for $25 + shipping.
http://mcgillswarehouse.com/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemID=154120006&IN=SILVERBRAZEDDRILLBIT,14
This bit is designed for drilling concrete and has a 5/8" UNC shaft for accepting a chuck. This is a lot bigger than anything I own, so I purchased a 5/8" rod with UNC threads from Home Depot. I cut it to a more reasonable length and mounted it to the bit with a nut and lock washer. I ground down the end sticking out of the bit to get it to fit my 3/4" drill chuck.
It is not possible to get such a coring drill bit here in germany .I have one available
Would one of you send his one to me ?
( Your used one when it is possible to use it again or a new one ?
For sure i will pay for it and i will also pay the shipping costs )
Please make a remark outside the box : " used motorcycle-part just for demo and for free - gratis "
My adress as PN ( paypal or how you want )
My adress :
All the people trying this method are going the hard way IMO. You may still be able to salvage your header.Yep, just cut it in half, gut all of the cat and weld it.
Just cut the sucker in half, clean out the guts, weld it back together, you can't see the weld under the heat shield anyway! I know there are a couple ways to "gut a cat", but this way is the best and easiest, all you need is a welder.....they are all over the place.
Think of the time and money involved.
why are you coring the head pip, I thought this process was let go in favor of the total removalSo did I.
But one could see the weld when removing the heat shield and then they have an argument to complain about ( the police )#
When the cat is cored out , you can`t see it without removing the hole pipe .
For germany , this way is the better one , i guess .
But with a 96cui 48state cat-free header i wouldn`t have the automatic exhaust-control ,
the police know hat there have to be one since 2007 and they would check first and see that there is none , ( mine is deactivated , allways open by software from dealer , but the police can`t check this - mostly ) .+
So the best would be to core the cat out .
I was thinking about this since january - best way for me i guess .
The exhaust contro is located at the end of the header , after the crossover-pipe .
But i don`t know yet how to remove it , but removing the ex-control is necessary for coring the Cat , and remount the ex-contro afterwards again .
I don`t know even whether a 1.6" is small enough because it is getting a little more narrow at theis point of the ex-control.
So i guess that a 1.5" core-bit would be better for me .
But such a drill is not available here in germany , i found nothing nowhere .
I do not really trust a welded pipe and the dealers are " mystirious " about such things here in germany , the next step for them would be to make nothing further for warranty works when there would be a case of it .
Thsi seems to be the area where the ex-control is located but it is inside not outside ( like on the picture ). And on your pic it seems to be removed and the hole closed .
But you can see at your pic that the area is more narrow at this point .
I do not really trust a welded pipe and the dealers are " mystirious " about such things here in germany , the next step for them would be to make nothing further for warranty works when there would be a case of it .
The german exhaust control :
Could you lay a mirror on the floor and take a shot from below? It would give us a better view behind the heat shield, or, even better, take the heat shield off!
Thanks
this exhaust control closes the right-side muffler because of noise reduction ( the right muffler is bigger cored than the left one here in germany ) when you are about 50km/h ( about 30mph) fast . the emission flows to the left side and it is very silent ( max 80db ) .
When you are faster than 80km/h ( about 50mph ) then the ex-control opens the right side again.
You are not allowed to produce more than 80db between speed 30 - 50 mph .
Don`t ask why , they are getting more and more strange in this world
All the people trying this method are going the hard way IMO. You may still be able to salvage your header.
Just cut the sucker in half, clean out the guts, weld it back together, you can't see the weld under the heat shield anyway! I know there are a couple ways to "gut a cat", but this way is the best and easiest, all you need is a welder.....they are all over the place.
Think of the time and money involved.
Amen...Quit dickin around with a half-ass fix of trying to drill the cat, cut the friggin pipe , gut it , weld back,..done...For those that don't want to do that ..Send it out to Steve ... use the TTS Tuner and map package he has..Done Dealtotally agree :2vrolijk_21:
I had a quick look in the parts book today, found 3 head pipes listed:
66848-09...........$523.20
66849-09...........$387.20
66855-09...........$387.20
Not quite sure, but I bet the 66848 has the control valve for your ex. management system!
The other 2 listed are for cat and non-cat head pipes.
I shoulda bought the book, but, I didn't have the $30 he wanted!
Wow...from my boss' perspective, I probably wasted most of yesterday reading all 390 posts yesterday at work. However, I think it may have saved me a lot of time and trouble. A great big THANK YOU to Jim for starting this and his patient explanations, as well to all the others who provided sound thoughts, suggestions, and somtimes comic relief. This is truly a great site and community.
For me, I am not willing to try this on a brand new $30K bike because there is a more than likely chance I will screw something up. So I am going to get the stock non-CVO RG headpipe and go from there. Since I am not a mechanic by trade, and have given up trying to fix my own car since they made them computerized (remember the old days when a car's engine compartment was big enough for the engine and YOU?... :oops:...I digress!), I do have a c ouple of questions:
1) Since the HD dealer is getting me the head pipe, do you think they will have any issues with installing them? I haven't asked yet
2) Is this as really simple as taking off the current mufflers and head pipe and installing the non-cat headpipe and existing mufflers? This I might be comfortable with doing myself, and frankly might enjoy.
3) Will the bike need to be re-tuned? Sorry if that question has been answered in here before, but I thought I may have seen varied answers on that. Dealer does have a dyno, but will the dealer be able/allowed to make the bike run a little richer?
4) Obviously, mufflers/baffles will be next: should the bike be re-tuned then?
5) Finally, is there a way to read this thread as a single web page, so I could print it out for future reference? I guess once there are so many replies the "ALL" option disappears, and I do understand the reason being it would take a long time to load. But it sure would be great!
Thanks, and I am sorry if these questions have been asked and answered before. It is sometimes difficult for me to put some of the answers in context, or the question was asked a little differently.
This site is a treasure, and like someone said when I introduced myself, it will be costing me money :)
Sam
.....Unfortunately not for the reason(s) you stated.
5) Finally, is there a way to read this thread as a single web page, so I could print it out for future reference? I guess once there are so many replies the "ALL" option disappears, and I do understand the reason being it would take a long time to load. But it sure would be great!
.......
Sam
HOGMIKE:
Louder? Don't Care
More Power? Absolutely
Running Cooler? Absolutely
LarryB:
I am extremely computer literate, but don't know jack about tuning this bike and am concerned I could screw that up too!
have a extra non cat 09 header pipe... best offer?PM Sent-AK
Just installed headpipe 66848-09 boughten at european price from a french delaer : no valve, no cat.
plus SE pro super tuner.
I have a new bike ! more HP and torque, additional pleasure at low speed and rpm, lower temperature of back cylinder !
I was ready to sell my bike ( I had a 1550 cc fatboy anniversary with high cams et vance exhaust.. it was more entertaining than the 110 european legal), i definitively keep my SERG09.
Removal of the right floor board makes it easieris a must be , the change does not work without removing it (was my experience).
Why waste your time with a half band aid solution that only gets one side of the pipe. Remove the header (simple job) and cut out the cat or have any fab or body shop cut it for you. Cut a rectangular window on the outside of the pipe under the chrome shield after its removed and have fun with a screwdriver and pliers...then weld the window back in place! The whole job is about 3 hours. Ceramic coating is a good option and will reduce heat, make a bit more power and stop any corrosion. :drink:It's not so easy for some, especially a nub. you gotta remember, some people didn't even change there own oil until they found CVO
the tool i would like to rent is the coring tool used to remove the cat.easier to rent a tool that is not being used that to buy one.better for me and the guy renting it to me.he will never likely use it again.is the 09 se the only bike that has the cats in the headpipe,or do all 09s have them?PM me, I got one
the tool i would like to rent is the coring tool used to remove the cat.easier to rent a tool that is not being used that to buy one.better for me and the guy renting it to me.he will never likely use it again.is the 09 se the only bike that has the cats in the headpipe,or do all 09s have them?
ALL '10 bikes have 'em.
Wow , you know for sure ? also the 49ers 96cui ?
This is an easy project that anyone that knows how to turn a wrench can do. If I count making my drill chuck, removing/reinstalling the saddlebag, cleanup, etc. it took me about an hour. The trip to Home Depot was another 30 minutes. The drilling process itself took about 15-20 minutes. Removing the cc was priceless!You don't want to sell that bit do ya? Prices have gone up in two years.... :)
You don't want to sell that bit do ya? Prices have gone up in two years.... :)
Bump on a very old thread..I want to cut the catalytic converter can this work on a 2015 SG?
Anyone in Socal/San Diego who can do the work?