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[LarryB]

Dave, do you sleep?

[1abastarsmda]

Larry,

I sent you a PM answering that question.

[32Lager]

I believe someone addressed this that had cut the exhaust in front of the converter and removed it in its' entirety.  You may want to look for posts with a photo of the converter completely removed or close to those posts.  It may be in this thread or it could be in the thread on "Installing Fullsac Baffles on 09 CVO".  I think I remember something about them being bonded somehow, but you'd have to find the post to be sure.

Thanks for the info. The picture in reply #253 makes it look like they're bonded in there.

[/quote]I just noticed your location on the map.  It looks like I passed right by you this afternoon (by mistake).  I was coming from State College heading to Monroeville, and I must have been daydreaming...or half asleep...and I forgot to exit to 22 West and continued south on I-99 and just continued on down until I hit the turnpike.  We seem to ride over your direction on a pretty regular basis in the nicer weather.
[/quote]

You were two miles west of my house when you passed the Claysburg exit on Rt. 99. When you're heading this way again, shoot me a pm. There's always a cold one waiting in the garage. Were you up at No 1 Harley in State College ?

[1abastarsmda]

You were two miles west of my house when you passed the Claysburg exit on Rt. 99. When you're heading this way again, shoot me a pm. There's always a cold one waiting in the garage. Were you up at No 1 Harley in State College ?

Actually, I've never been to that dealer.  I heard it's a nice place.  A few of us are planning to take a ride there this spring to check it out.  My sister lives in State College, so I make some regular trips there.  I've stopped at Apple Harley before, which I'm sure is your closest dealer.  Do they still have the rally in Altoona?  We went there last year and I don't remember seeing anything about it this year.  We did go to Lakemont Park for the build-a-bike year end party.  Anyway, I will try to remember to PM you if we're heading over your way. 

[Texas 103]

Does anyone know if the CC is pressed in or bonded to the pipe somehow ?  Just curious...

Yes to both...Greg

[32Lager]

Actually, I've never been to that dealer.  I heard it's a nice place.  A few of us are planning to take a ride there this spring to check it out.  My sister lives in State College, so I make some regular trips there.  I've stopped at Apple Harley before, which I'm sure is your closest dealer.  Do they still have the rally in Altoona?  We went there last year and I don't remember seeing anything about it this year.  We did go to Lakemont Park for the build-a-bike year end party.  Anyway, I will try to remember to PM you if we're heading over your way. 

No. 1 is one of the larger dealerships around here. I bought my Fatboy there but they didn't want to deal on the Ultra. Never called back... Apple is the closest dealer but the owner isn't real well liked by local riders. I get along with Joe but their bike sales come from people that don't know much about their history. The rally in Altoona is all screwed up now. The original coordinators ended up in court with one of their main sponsors and the result was two seperate rallies on the same weekend called "Roar in the Mountains" and "Rumble through the Alleghenies". There's no comparison to the success that Johnstown has with "Thunder in the Valley".

[1abastarsmda]

I hope they get their act together.  There aren't enough rallies close enough for one day trips as it is.  When I went there, it probably wasn't as big as bike night at any of the 3 Quaker Steaks in the Pittsburgh area, but it was somewhere to ride to.  Johnstown is always a good time, but it seems that they always get hit with some heavy rain sometime over that weekend.  I am looking forward to a ride to No. 1. 

[jfh]

Steve at Fullsac conducted before and after A/F measurements and saw no change after the removal of the cat.  This would suggest that the flow did not improve enough to lean out the mix. Perhaps the cat is not as restrictive as it visually appears, at least with the stock cams and heads.

Anyone have any dyno data to suggest otherwise?

[Jim Kerr]

Steve at Fullsac conducted before and after A/F measurements and saw no change after the removal of the cat.  This would suggest that the flow did not improve enough to lean out the mix. Perhaps the cat is not as restrictive as it visually appears, at least with the stock cams and heads.

Anyone have any dyno data to suggest otherwise?

The computer controls the fuel air mixture.  Not a surprise that the F/A ratio didn't change.  You need to measure the volumetric efficiency of the engine before/after to gauge the difference.  That is basically how much air the engine can pump.  The cat causes back pressure, which reduces the efficiency of the engine; therefore, the power output is reduced.  More Air in/Air out = more power.  We did this test on my bike and confirmed the theory.  The bike gained more power on the dyno after the cat was removed with the OEM exhaust remained the same and no tuning changes. 

FWIW, it doesn't take a scientific experiment to figure out that the cat is causing back pressure.  I'm attaching a pic of it cut out.  This is very dense and restrictive material.  It most definitely reduces the power output of the bike.  H-D would never install these if it weren't for the EPA breathing down their neck. 

[jfh]

The computer controls the fuel air mixture.  Not a surprise that the F/A ratio didn't change.  You need to measure the volumetric efficiency of the engine before/after to gauge the difference.  That is basically how much air the engine can pump.  The cat causes back pressure, which reduces the efficiency of the engine; therefore, the power output is reduced.  More Air in/Air out = more power.  We did this test on my bike and confirmed the theory.  The bike gained more power on the dyno after the cat was removed with the OEM exhaust remained the same and no tuning changes. 

FWIW, it doesn't take a scientific experiment to figure out that the cat is causing back pressure.  I'm attaching a pic of it cut out.  This is very dense and restrictive material.  It most definitely reduces the power output of the bike.  H-D would never install these if it weren't for the EPA breathing down their neck. 

Jim, the computer only adjusts the F/A mix while in closed loop mode. When in open loop, the ECM does not adjust the F/A to account for changes in V/E.  I beleive that any increase in V/E realized from the removal of the cat would cause the mixture to become lean when in open loop.
 
Your other thread on the Fullsac installation suggests that you did not do dyno runs before and after the cat removal. I was trying to discover if anyone had actually measured the difference made by removing the cat.

[Hoist!]

Jim, the computer only adjusts the F/A mix while in closed loop mode. When in open loop, the ECM does not adjust the F/A to account for changes in V/E.  I beleive that any increase in V/E realized from the removal of the cat would cause the mixture to become lean when in open loop.
 
Your other thread on the Fullsac installation suggests that you did not do dyno runs before and after the cat removal. I was trying to discover if anyone had actually measured the difference made by removing the cat.

The 110 needs gobs of flow to perform. That's what Jim's reffering to. You limit the amout of flow by all the additional back pressure you impose on motor with the exhaust system. To get these 110's to perform, you need to OPEN THEM UP!!! IN and OUT!!!

Excellent explanation Jim!

Hoist!

[jfh]

The 110 needs gobs of flow to perform. That's what Jim's reffering to. You limit the amout of flow by all the additional back pressure you impose on motor with the exhaust system. To get these 110's to perform, you need to OPEN THEM UP!!! IN and OUT!!!

Excellent explanation Jim!

Hoist!

Got it Hoist :2vrolijk_21:I am familiar with the concept. Just trying to quantify the improvement from removing the cat.

[Jim Kerr]

Jim, the computer only adjusts the F/A mix while in closed loop mode. When in open loop, the ECM does not adjust the F/A to account for changes in V/E.  I beleive that any increase in V/E realized from the removal of the cat would cause the mixture to become lean when in open loop.

True the computer automatically adjusts changes in closed loop mode; however, you also program the target open loop F/A ratio in the software.  The throttle body and other components are programmed to run the engine at the defined VE/FA ratio.  The computer does a darn good job of hitting the programmed limits even without the O2.  The cat also alters dyno O2 readings.  The only way to get an accurate reading on bikes with the cat in the header is to drill a hole in the collector prior to the cat and insert sensor.  Steve may not be drilling his customers headers in order to get an accurate reading.  Last time I spoke with him he did not own a CVO 110 to test with. 

Your other thread on the Fullsac installation suggests that you did not do dyno runs before and after the cat removal. I was trying to discover if anyone had actually measured the difference made by removing the cat.

I can only upload one picture per post.  I chose the charts that showed the major changes.  Stock, Baffle/Cat Removal, Tune.  We also did numerous test in between. 

[Texas 103]

Jim, the computer only adjusts the F/A mix while in closed loop mode. When in open loop, the ECM does not adjust the F/A to account for changes in V/E.  I beleive that any increase in V/E realized from the removal of the cat would cause the mixture to become lean when in open loop.
 
Your other thread on the Fullsac installation suggests that you did not do dyno runs before and after the cat removal. I was trying to discover if anyone had actually measured the difference made by removing the cat.

We didn't see that much of a gain with the whole thing gone vs drilled but it sure is cooler and sounds a bit better...Greg

[Admiral]

Can anyone confirm that the 09 Non CVO Ultra Classic 96 CU does NOT have the CC?