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[Robert1]

I purchased a 2019 Limited recently
I questioned the dealer and was told the 2019 did not have any problems with sumping the issue was resolved
I put 940 km (584 miles) on the bike and the dealer picked it up due to sumping
They have now had it for about 3 weeks i am waiting on the new motor (I insisted a new new motor or they could keep the bike)
The dealer tells me they have torn the motor down and checked everything and can find no reason as to why this has happened
The engine got hot enough that it melted some of the brackets above the engine
After doing some research i can not seem to find any real solution or any feed back from Harley or the dealership as to what to do with this
I do alot of long rides and i am worried about being stranded in the middle of no where with a brand new bike

All this for a bike that is 4 days old

[guppytrash]

I purchased a 2019 Limited recently
I questioned the dealer and was told the 2019 did not have any problems with sumping the issue was resolved
I put 940 km (584 miles) on the bike and the dealer picked it up due to sumping
They have now had it for about 3 weeks i am waiting on the new motor (I insisted a new new motor or they could keep the bike)
The dealer tells me they have torn the motor down and checked everything and can find no reason as to why this has happened
The engine got hot enough that it melted some of the brackets above the engine
After doing some research i can not seem to find any real solution or any feed back from Harley or the dealership as to what to do with this
I do alot of long rides and i am worried about being stranded in the middle of no where with a brand new bike

All this for a bike that is 4 days old

Sorry to hear of your problems.  I was hoping the 2019 was cured of the sumping problems.
The dealer not finding a reason as to why this has happened is probably true. 
It seems not even HD knows why. 
I know this probably does not help, but there are several owners here who say they have had no problems.
I hope your new motor puts you in that category.

[MCE]

They probably know. They're just not telling.

[grc]

They probably know. They're just not telling.

If Harley doesn't know, they are even more incompetent than I've always assumed they were.  There is no doubt they or their outside consultants know exactly what's causing the sumping issue.  There is also no doubt a real fix would require a redesign that would cost big bucks and put them on the hook for some serious warranty costs when the guys with older bikes found out about the redesign.  Band-Aids are all you will get.  Just think about all the other long term problems they've had that never received a proper fix.  The list is long.

JMHO - Jerry

[Tn.Heritage]

I purchased a 2019 Limited recently
I questioned the dealer and was told the 2019 did not have any problems with sumping the issue was resolved
I put 940 km (584 miles) on the bike and the dealer picked it up due to sumping
They have now had it for about 3 weeks i am waiting on the new motor (I insisted a new new motor or they could keep the bike)
The dealer tells me they have torn the motor down and checked everything and can find no reason as to why this has happened
The engine got hot enough that it melted some of the brackets above the engine
After doing some research i can not seem to find any real solution or any feed back from Harley or the dealership as to what to do with this
I do alot of long rides and i am worried about being stranded in the middle of no where with a brand new bike

All this for a bike that is 4 days old

Let me make a suggestion. Durwood found on his that when he lowered the amount of oil he ran it took care of the sumping issue he was having. He say's he cannot make his engine sump now. If you take a Twin Cam dip stick and compare it to the M8 stick, they are the same in length but the twin cam would show over full and the M8 want. Make sense, this could also be the reason the M8 engine isn't breathing properly. Just run about 3.5 qts. in it and see if it sumps, bet it want.

[mark]

It's hard to believe 1/2 qt of oil would make a difference, but maybe so.  You'd think if that cured sumping, the MoCo could have saved itself lots of money and grief by issuing a service bulletin with this as the suggested max amount of oil.

[Para Bellum]

Durwood found on his that when he lowered the amount of oil he ran it took care of the sumping issue he was having.

From your lips...

Sadly, from what we know about the M8 crankcase oil return location, it doesn't seem like less oil will do it.  It sure helped with oil usage on my TC, but the M8 seems to be a different cause (and effect).

[OBB]

Let me make a suggestion. Durwood found on his that when he lowered the amount of oil he ran it took care of the sumping issue he was having. He say's he cannot make his engine sump now. If you take a Twin Cam dip stick and compare it to the M8 stick, they are the same in length but the twin cam would show over full and the M8 want. Make sense, this could also be the reason the M8 engine isn't breathing properly. Just run about 3.5 qts. in it and see if it sumps, bet it want.

For some reason I thought the M8 took more oil than the TC. After a brief search, I didn't find a concrete answer and don't have the time to pull up the HD site. I'm wondering if that is true, it would account for the different hash marks on the dipstick.

Sent from my boring Droid phone.

[Tn.Heritage]

From your lips...

Sadly, from what we know about the M8 crankcase oil return location, it doesn't seem like less oil will do it.  It sure helped with oil usage on my TC, but the M8 seems to be a different cause (and effect).

Have you then lowered your oil level by 1qt, not 1/2 qt but 1 full qt ? Fill a lawnmower a qt or so too full and see what happens. Again I'm only reporting on thread that Durwood was reporting on at HTT. He's the guy that dyno's them and builds engines so he's done his research.

[Para Bellum]

Have you then lowered your oil level by 1qt, not 1/2 qt but 1 full qt ? Fill a lawnmower a qt or so too full and see what happens. Again I'm only reporting on thread that Durwood was reporting on at HTT. He's the guy that dyno's them and builds engines so he's done his research.

It would help if you put up a link to Durwood's report so all of us can reference the same info.

I understand you were just repeating what Durwood said, but now you are (1) comparing a lawnmower one quart too full to an M8 or TC running at the designed oil level; (2) comparing the TC breather/oil usage problem to the M8 sumping.  Both of those statements are comparing apples to kangaroos.

[skratch]

For some reason I thought the M8 took more oil than the TC. After a brief search, I didn't find a concrete answer and don't have the time to pull up the HD site. I'm wondering if that is true, it would account for the different hash marks on the dipstick.

Sent from my boring Droid phone.

yep, the m8 has a significantly higher capacity than the twin cam.

[grc]

Yup, the M8 water cooled touring models take 5.0 quarts (4.75 service), and the oil cooled touring models take 5.2 quarts (spec also shows 4.75 at service).  I read that as initial fill of a dry engine takes 5.0 (5.2 oil cooled) quarts, they both take 4.75 quarts during a complete service (oil and filter).  The Twin Cam touring models had a 4.0 quart capacity, and depending on how you drained the oil it was common to have about six to eight ounces left in the engine.  Anyway you look at it, the M8 takes an extra quart versus a TC, plus or minus a few ounces.

Jerry

[Robert1]

I do not think i will be dropping the oil level in the bike without direction from Harley as this would void the warranty in all likely hood
I am told that all dealers are now required to plug the bikes into a computer each time they come in so Harley can down load all the data, and if they see something done they do not approve of they are going to deny warranty claims
I just got an update on the bike that it is going to be another 2 weeks minimum before i get it back making it a bike i rode for 4 days which is going to be in the shop for 6-8 weeks
I can not believe after buying Harleys most expensive bike they do not confirm the sumping and just automatically ship another engine and sort out why on there own time and not make us wait forever to get our bikes back on the road
This is a known issue and they need to stop dragging it out for the consumer

[mark]

I do not think i will be dropping the oil level in the bike without direction from Harley as this would void the warranty in all likely hood
I am told that all dealers are now required to plug the bikes into a computer each time they come in so Harley can down load all the data, and if they see something done they do not approve of they are going to deny warranty claims
I just got an update on the bike that it is going to be another 2 weeks minimum before i get it back making it a bike i rode for 4 days which is going to be in the shop for 6-8 weeks
I can not believe after buying Harleys most expensive bike they do not confirm the sumping and just automatically ship another engine and sort out why on there own time and not make us wait forever to get our bikes back on the road
This is a known issue and they need to stop dragging it out for the consumer

Well Robert, I'll tell you why.  Because historically the MoCo was able to deliver bikes with engineering flaws and their loyal customer based gobbled them up - even paying out of their own pocket to fix flaws.  When the loyal base became tired of putting up with these flaws, they rewarded the MoCo by trading for a new bike.  That business model continues..old habits are hard to break for the MoCo. 

[timo482]

actually there is a minimum oil line and a max oil line - the computer can't tell one from the other. i have always run harleys somewhere in the middle. and have always heard of folks with problems if run right at the top.   most of the paperwork for all my bikes said "do not add oil till its at the add line"

and yes - when something goes wrong its often half a year of it in the shop and the owner making payments and taking depreciation.   all that said ive found all of mine to be reliable and long lasting - i always run stock, base displacement, engine - and moderate duration improving items - like oil coolers etc clear back to my first one right out of high school.  the hot rod harleys were always trouble.

[hawgzilla]

Just want to add that the computer doesn’t know if it’s full of oil or even if it doesn’t have a drop of oil.  It has no way to monitor oil levels.  There is no way to cause an issue running the oil 1/2 to a full quart low.  Running 1/2 quart low is very smart in my opinion.

[J.D.]

If Harley doesn't know, they are even more incompetent than I've always assumed they were.  There is no doubt they or their outside consultants know exactly what's causing the sumping issue.  There is also no doubt a real fix would require a redesign that would cost big bucks and put them on the hook for some serious warranty costs when the guys with older bikes found out about the redesign.  Band-Aids are all you will get.  Just think about all the other long term problems they've had that never received a proper fix.  The list is long.

JMHO - Jerry

This is it.  Harley again has shot themselves in the foot and painted themselves into a corner.

At this point most can agree they have a sumping problem on the M8 and multiple attempts to resolve it with part revisions has not resolved the issue.

1. Fix it right away with a major design change is big money but then the platform moves forward without the issue.  2. Limp it along and alienate your loyal base but save up front money.  Problem I see for them chosing #2 is the reputation of a relatively low powered and problematic drivetrain on a relatively expensive bike which these days is a recipe for disaster.

I feel bad for these owners who are dealing with this.

[grc]

Just want to add that the computer doesn’t know if it’s full of oil or even if it doesn’t have a drop of oil.  It has no way to monitor oil levels.  There is no way to cause an issue running the oil 1/2 to a full quart low.  Running 1/2 quart low is very smart in my opinion.

I agree except when you get to running a full quart low.  A pint low is considered to be within the normal operating range, a full quart is marginal at best.  Remember, that motor oil has many functions.  It is a lubricant and friction reducer of course, but it is also a coolant.  That's a very important function in something that runs as hot as a Harley engine.  It also removes and suspends contaminants (I still remember when they called it detergent oil back in the day), and prevents acid buildup due to combustion byproducts.  Reduce the amount of oil below the design parameters and you can negatively affect those and other characteristics.

It shouldn't be necessary to run less than the specified amount of oil in any engine in order to cover up flaws in the engine design.  The fact that many of us ran a pint low to cover up the breather issue on the Twin Cams doesn't make it right, it just points out how Harley constantly creates problems and then sits back while the customers and the aftermarket attempt to address those problems because Harley doesn't.  Btw, unless you run an M8 about 4.5 quarts low, reducing the amount of oil is not going to fix sumping. 

Jerry

[yobtaf103]

Another problem is loose piston oilers, but why  that would afflict CVO's more so ?

[Spiked Olive]

I have 16k trouble free miles on my 2017 CVO 114.

My best friend as 13K on a 2017 Trike 107. He has had zero issues.

Another riding buddy has 8k miles on his 2017 Limited 107. Zero issues.

Yes I know the sumping is a real deal and the transfer is a real deal. But these three bikes I know well with no problems at all.

So the reason for the post is to share a thought that has crossed my mind. Maybe the design is good. Maybe the testing was good and trouble free in development. So why do some have issues and others do not? Maybe a part is not manufactured to specification. Or the tolerance not to the design spec that got past quality control? It should not happen, but certainly could. If they all 100% were doing it then that would be a huge design flaw.

I'm no expert but my dealership told me about this issue. They asked me a lot of questions when I carried it in for the first two services to see if I was experiencing any of the symptoms. They confirmed what I have read online and they shared some real nightmare stories about a couple of bikes they sold. But I can only trust them when they say the vast majority have been trouble free.

Good luck to all those dealing with this issue.

[Robert1]

My thoughts are most harleys are used as bar hoppers and see little mileage, which is support by the fact you can go buy a 5 or 10 year old bike with less than 10k on it, so we know it is left in the garage most of the time
Secondly most do not ride hard or for extended period of time at higher speeds, so they do not work that hard
For me i normally do not stop unless i need gas or food, and we ride at a fairly good clip.
From what i have read most M8's with the problems are the ones with the stage 3 or 4 upgrades or those who have taken the bike out for some hard rides.  I think it is safe to say if you are doing stage 3 or 4 upgrades you are doing it because you tend to ride harder than most
I have read some are recommending you just pull over when the bike is sumping and let it idle upright for 5 or 10 minutes and move on as a work around.  I am not interested in a work around or having to stop every 100 miles or so
I think it is a simple case of the manufacture needing to stand up and get behind the product they are sending out the door
I have now had 3 ridding buddies cancel there new bikes with Harley and 1 has purchased an Indian.  But i do not think they realy care by how they have been handling this the last 3 years

[Tn.Heritage]

It would help if you put up a link to Durwood's report so all of us can reference the same info.

I understand you were just repeating what Durwood said, but now you are (1) comparing a lawnmower one quart too full to an M8 or TC running at the designed oil level; (2) comparing the TC breather/oil usage problem to the M8 sumping.  Both of those statements are comparing apples to kangaroos.

Dude, I'm not comparing the M8 to lawnmower engine, just making a statement, I can't help you do not have the capacity to see what I was trying to say. Look it up on the HTT site.
So I copied this from that site.
 
So your running basically the same amount in your M8 as you did in a Twin Cam now, correct ?
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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #183 on: May 21, 2019, 06:46:53 AM »
Quote
Quote from: metaliser on May 21, 2019, 04:22:05 AM
Quote from: Durwood on May 20, 2019, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: BigT on May 14, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124” build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117” with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I’m not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can’t be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs?  I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....
Big T you might try running your oil level a quart low.

That's what I did after mine sumped 2 quarts and now I am getting 4.5 oz from the sump plug, not the CPS.

Besides the piston oilers being loose and leaking on some bikes, I honestly believe that Harley's suggested oil level is too much and the main cause of the sumping M8's. JMO

 
So your running basically the same amount in your M8 as you did in a Twin Cam now, correct ?
Yes, and I can't make it sump.

[Para Bellum]

Dude, I'm not comparing the M8 to lawnmower engine, just making a statement

Our conversation was about the M8 engine.  The exact words of your statement were:

Have you then lowered your oil level by 1qt, not 1/2 qt but 1 full qt ? Fill a lawnmower a qt or so too full and see what happens.

No useful info here.

If you take a Twin Cam dip stick and compare it to the M8 stick, they are the same in length but the twin cam would show over full and the M8 want.

No useful info there either.  Length of the dipstick tells you nothing about the oil capacity; for example, my SUV's dipstick is 8 times the length of the M8's, but the SUV doesn't hold 40 quarts (8 x 5).

Look it up on the HTT site.

Exactly what I asked for:

It would help if you put up a link to Durwood's report so all of us can reference the same info.

Here is the link: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=106016.200
Here is the punch line from Durwood (the oiler issue he refers to below is the piston oiler jet, which GMR found about 3 years ago):
« Reply #208 on: Today at 04:38:24 AM »

I have had them sump after addressing the oiler issue, which I do whenever the cylinders are off.

Oil pump doesn't matter, with or without updated cover with seal or S&S, they still sump.

But once the oil level dropped the sumping stopped. This is on 8 different bikes that I built and tuned.

So if the piston oiler jets aren't loose (yet?), maybe running /12 quart low will be an effective band-aid?  As said before, that's really cheesy for a $28,000 to $48,000 bike.  Thanks, H-D.

[Tn.Heritage]

Our conversation was about the M8 engine.  The exact words of your statement were:No useful info here.
No useful info there either.  Length of the dipstick tells you nothing about the oil capacity; for example, my SUV's dipstick is 8 times the length of the M8's, but the SUV doesn't hold 40 quarts (8 x 5).
Exactly what I asked for:Here is the link: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=106016.200
Here is the punch line from Durwood (the oiler issue he refers to below is the piston oiler jet, which GMR found about 3 years ago):
« Reply #208 on: Today at 04:38:24 AM »So if the piston oiler jets aren't loose (yet?), maybe running /12 quart low will be an effective band-aid?  As said before, that's really cheesy for a $28,000 to $48,000 bike.  Thanks, H-D.

Look, I see I'm getting no where with you because all you want to do is try and disprove anything anyone say's. I was only stating that maybe, just maybe, not counting the oilers being loose, (which I also saw a long time ago) maybe HD made a mistake with the oil fill, that's what I was trying to share via what Durwood stated, that's all. Now explain how me stating that overfilling a briggs engine, HD engine, Boat engine etc. etc. wasn't useful. it was just a scenario of what could and will occur if something has been overfilled, that's all. That's what Darren was sorta of trying to say as well. Why would his engine not sump while running 3.5 qts. of oil but would sump running what HD recommends for the M8?

   Hopefully the Aftermarket will fix the main issues as they always do with all of HD's faults, then and only then will the mothership follow suit.
  I know you will break this down and try to make me look bad as you normally do or have in the past, I get it. In the end though, all we all want is to buy a bike we can ride and enjoy without worrying whether it will transfer, sump and other issue's that may occur.
  Peace out 
   
   

[Para Bellum]

Why would his engine not sump while running 3.5 qts. of oil but would sump running what HD recommends for the M8?

   Hopefully the Aftermarket will fix the main issues as they always do with all of HD's faults, then and only then will the mothership follow suit.
In the end though, all we all want is to buy a bike we can ride and enjoy without worrying whether it will transfer, sump and other issue's that may occur.
  Peace out 

After all of the info we've exchanged, I have some questions left about oil level: 

• Why aren't all, or at least far more, of the M8 engines showing signs of overfilling (like oil leaks, excess oil in the breathers and air filters, foaming and/or burnt oil, and sumping)?
• Would problems only show up after running the bike hard and overwhelming the return oil system?
• What about the weakest link; i.e., the seal at the piston oiler jets?  Could the high pressure and flow of an overfilled oil system cause the seal there to fail, leading to a catastrophic leak and rapid failure of the engine?

[Tn.Heritage]

Wish I could answer those questions, honestly I do.  If I could I'd be a lot better off than I am now for sure 
 
   My theory, I think some engines may have a better casting than others, some may also have better ring seal than others etc. etc. There really is some good reading over on HD Forums with Steve Cole and others about certain theories and possible fixes. Most however call them bandaids instead of fixes.

  My best friend just purchased a 2019 trike and with only around 800 miles on the clock and he can't keep tranny oil from transferring. Took it to Smokey Mtn. HD and they installed the new vent. Now I know what your thinking, what does this have to do with the sumping issue, right ?  I guess my point here is why some do it and some don't. There are a lot of bikes out there that have no issues at all on any of these subject's we have talked about.
 
  I do know though, all bikes made late May and on, will have the primary vent installed from the factory.
   
  Anyways, got to scoot but if anyone hear's of new theories or fixes, please post, I like to try and keep up with them. This way we can discuss and argue about how they work or not. 
 

[bobbym]

2018 CVO RG

6300 MILES
Stage 4 done at new.
Sumped engine oil temperature was 340 shut down no oil on dip stick ! Oil showing in exhaust! waiting for harley to send engineers to look in Boston ma.

Will advise when I get Info

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[CQ Harley Rider]

My 2019 CVO SG sumped at 6000km's, it was 6 months old.

HDAU arranged for  replacement engine to be installed, the tech at the dealership told me even though mine wasd a 2019 model it was a 10/18 build so it probably missed the oil pump upgrade.

[bobbym]

Well I hope that the oil pump is definitely the problem because  I am still hearing people out there its happened multiple times!!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Tn.Heritage]

My 2019 CVO SG sumped at 6000km's, it was 6 months old.

HDAU arranged for  replacement engine to be installed, the tech at the dealership told me even though mine wasd a 2019 model it was a 10/18 build so it probably missed the oil pump upgrade.

   My bike, though not a CVO, had a build of 10/26/18 and mine had the oil pump seal installed from the factory.

[bobbym]

Good luck I hope it's fixed will keep you posted on my outcome!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[scottt]

Hope you folks that experience  long periods without your bike due to an issue receive something to cover some of your hard cost, while bike is not available to ride.

It's only right!

Hopefully Harley sorts this out. I will not buy another Harley until they prove to me that they are selling a solid motorcycle that's also competitive with other manufacturers.

My days of blind loyalty is over.  I'm saddened to make that statement.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

[Heatwave]

2018 CVO RG

6300 MILES
Stage 4 done at new.
Sumped engine oil temperature was 340 shut down no oil on dip stick ! Oil showing in exhaust! waiting for harley to send engineers to look in Boston ma.

Will advise when I get Info

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Yep, Stage 4 117 sumped. Feel for you. Do you know if you had the latest "sealed" oil pump when the engine sumped? Did they upgrade the oil pump when they did the stage 4 install?

[bobbym]

No did not have new oil pump was not out yet!!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[bobbym]

TIME TO PUT TOGETHER A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT!! THERE ARE ENOUGH OF US OUT THERE WITH THIS PROBLEM!!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[scottt]

TIME TO PUT TOGETHER A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT!! THERE ARE ENOUGH OF US OUT THERE WITH THIS PROBLEM!!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Truly; owners of M8's could suffer greater depreciation if the general riding group learns about sumping. That's real damages.

Best of luck to you

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

[grc]

TIME TO PUT TOGETHER A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT!! THERE ARE ENOUGH OF US OUT THERE WITH THIS PROBLEM!!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Somehow Harley has been allowed to "skate" on stuff like this for decades; this is definitely not the first time they have inflicted major issues on customers for years without fixing the problem.  If this was the auto industry, there would be lawyers lining up to file suits and several such suits would already be in the pipeline.  Harley isn't worried though, they plan to abandon this market and hitch their wagon to the Chinese and Indian (the country, not the other brand name) markets.  If they pawn off the same shoddy crap over there as they have here, they might find themselves out of business.  The folks in those countries have been riding superior brands like Honda for a long time and I doubt they will give Harley the same free pass on quality and reliability they have received in the USA.

JMHO - Jerry

[mark]

I'm speculating a class-action on the M8 would be a death blow to the MoCo.  Having to fix (and I mean fix...not band-aid solutions like we've seen so far) or replace every M8 would so financially cripple the company, I'm not sure they'd survive.  BMW, Indian, & Honda, seeing blood in the water, would drive the knife in even further.

I'm not saying a class-action isn't called for, but just speculating on the result.       

[bobbym]

Verdict is in they are putting short block in! Oil pump failure!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Heatwave]

Good news. Hopefully they have you up and running soon. I assume everything was covered under warranty??

[bobbym]

Yes everything covered except my diamond cut!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Fier23]

Well they picked up my 2019 CVO for sumping today. Only 700 miles on it


Jeremy 2019 Street Glide CVO Black Forest

[Ironhorse]

The folks in those countries have been riding superior brands like Honda for a long time and I doubt they will give Harley the same free pass on quality and reliability they have received in the USA.

You're absolutely right about the free pass on quality here in the USA. We've had the same superior brands like Honda and Kawasaki here in the USA too. But as HD owners we have become so blinded to the rhetoric of "Buy American" fueled by unreasonable loyalty that for decades we have accepted these kinds of issues. Look at our posts, every year we pine away hoping HD will have "fixed the known issues", and produce a better product. Well it hasn't happened.

I know,...we say it,...Honda has no "soul", Kawasaki doesn't "sound like" a motorcycle and all that. So we choose to endure. We make a conscious effort to keep buying poor quality stuff because it's shiny, has a nice paint job, and sounds "pretty decent". Well that won't get you to Glacier National Park when your bike is sumped on the side of road, or paralyzed with a fried stator or grenaded cam chest.

We do this to ourselves because we WANT to.

[scottt]

You're absolutely right about the free pass on quality here in the USA. We've had the same superior brands like Honda and Kawasaki here in the USA too. But as HD owners we have become so blinded to the rhetoric of "Buy American" fueled by unreasonable loyalty that for decades we have accepted these kinds of issues. Look at our posts, every year we pine away hoping HD will have "fixed the known issues", and produce a better product. Well it hasn't happened.

I know,...we say it,...Honda has no "soul", Kawasaki doesn't "sound like" a motorcycle and all that. So we choose to endure. We make a conscious effort to keep buying poor quality stuff because it's shiny, has a nice paint job, and sounds "pretty decent". Well that won't get you to Glacier National Park when your bike is sumped on the side of road, or paralyzed with a fried stator or grenaded cam chest.

We do this to ourselves because we WANT to.

Let me first say that i will always love Harleys, they have a formula that moves me.

That said, after buying 12 new Harleys over 28 years i was attracted to the new BMW K1600 B or bagger. Styled by Rolland Sands in Los Angeles. The 6cyl engine developed in England for BMW along with the rest of the bike designed at the previous BMW F1 development center. One ride and I was sold. It's simply an amazing motorcycle. A bike Harley will never build. Perfect? No. But high quality engineering.

If Harley wants to continue being the sales leader, they must build a more competitive touring line. Honda, Yamaha, BMW all have new touring models released in 2018 with major improvement. Harley's only major improvement was the M8 with the lowest HP rating and quality issues.

Build a competitive bike with Harleys good looks, dealer network, aftermarket and owner base and they would sell extremely well.

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[Trapperdog]

I bought my first new HD when I was 17, AMF HD forgot to put in all four piston pin clips. Last one in 2007 (most know of those problems). A dozen or so in between with about half having major failures. Since 2007 we have bought 2 BMW’s, 2 Suzuki’s, 2 Honda’s and a Ural. Still have and love my ‘07 but until HD improves their engineering and Quality control other manufacturers will continue getting my business.

[les_garten]

Any of you guys insisting on New oil coolers and oil cooler lines during these swapouts?  Oil cooler most likely full of metal grindings.

[bobbym]

They flush them out!

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[Phantom309]

It's truly a real joke that some of these M8s are turning out to be such junk. The more I read about it makes me sick they still haven't fixed it and all the much happier I am for still having my Twin Cam .... will probably take it to my grave with me before I even think about a new M8. Sure, not everyone has problems, but we read a whole lot more about the problematic ones than the happy ones. I guess it's like Johnny Cash said ... Bad news travels like wildfire & good news travels slow!

[FLSTFI Dave]

It's truly a real joke that some of these M8s are turning out to be such junk. The more I read about it makes me sick they still haven't fixed it and all the much happier I am for still having my Twin Cam .... will probably take it to my grave with me before I even think about a new M8. Sure, not everyone has problems, but we read a whole lot more about the problematic ones than the happy ones. I guess it's like Johnny Cash said ... Bad news travels like wildfire & good news travels slow!

Why would they fix M8 issues when they sold the 110 from 2007 through 2017 with out fixing all its issues?  Lifter failure was an issue on the 07, and still on the 17 even with the new and improved lifters in 2014.  They also had compensator issues.

I'm on my 3rd CVO M8, I'm a lucky one no real issues yet.  Had 4 CVO between 09 and 15 with the 110, two had lifter failure, two had compensator failure. 

[guppytrash]

My 09 CVO had both lifter failure and compensator problems.

As to “why should they fix it”
They have lost many customers to other brands.  Me for one.
Brand loyalty has its limits for some.  Others would pay $90 k for a Ford Pinto if Harley put their name on it.  And they would buy another after it blew up, and another after that!

I would like to buy another HD but won’t!  I have lost confidence in HD’s quality control.
It wouldn’t take much to get me back.


That’s “why they should fix it”

[scottt]

My 09 CVO had both lifter failure and compensator problems.

As to “why should they fix it”
They have lost many customers to other brands.  Me for one.
Brand loyalty has its limits for some.  Others would pay $90 k for a Ford Pinto if Harley put their name on it.  And they would buy another after it blew up, and another after that!

I would like to buy another HD but won’t!  I have lost confidence in HD’s quality control.
It wouldn’t take much to get me back.


That’s “why they should fix it”

Sadly; your right. I've been suprised how many Harley owners i find on a K1600 BMW forum, I'm sure it's the same on the Indian, Honda, you get the point. Harley has some tough competition out there.

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[mark]

You're right Scottt. In the 1990s thru the mid 2000s we saw riders leaving their metrics when they could finally afford that HD...everyone wanted a Harley.  That trend seems to have somewhat reversed itself.  The BMW K1600 and Indian forums are full of former HD owners.  Many of which cite poor quality as the reason for defecting.  Bad quality will eventually bite you in the rear. 

[guppytrash]

. In the 1990s thru the mid 2000s we saw riders leaving their metrics when they could finally afford that HD...everyone wanted a Harley. 

So true!  That was me.  Now I can afford whatever I want, I choose not to pay for headaches.
My motorcycles are for fun and enjoyment.
Problems are not fun! 
There is an element we aren’t talking about. 
Making our HD’s better... pipes tuners air cleaners cams heads.
That was fun but now its Harleys excuse to void the warranty. 
That being the case the only way to get big torque and HP is to go with another brand.
 

[dayne66]

My 09 CVO had both lifter failure and compensator problems.

As to “why should they fix it”
They have lost many customers to other brands.  Me for one.
Brand loyalty has its limits for some.  Others would pay $90 k for a Ford Pinto if Harley put their name on it.  And they would buy another after it blew up, and another after that!

I would like to buy another HD but won’t!  I have lost confidence in HD’s quality control.
It wouldn’t take much to get me back.


That’s “why they should fix it”

Same on my '12

[scottt]

So true!  That was me.  Now I can afford whatever I want, I choose not to pay for headaches.
My motorcycles are for fun and enjoyment.
Problems are not fun! 
There is an element we aren’t talking about. 
Making our HD’s better... pipes tuners air cleaners cams heads.
That was fun but now its Harleys excuse to void the warranty. 
That being the case the only way to get big torque and HP is to go with another brand.

True: test rode a BMW K1600 B or bagger. Not only is it a good looking motorcycle in my opinion, designed by Rolland Sands in Los Angeles, the straight 6cyl with 160HP is amazing. Bike does it all, for half what a CVO cost. If your really into riding, it's a treat.

Still love Harleys, would love to buy another but have higher expectations today than i had in the past. I've purchased 12 Harleys including CVO.



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[les_garten]

Sadly; your right. I've been suprised how many Harley owners i find on a K1600 BMW forum, I'm sure it's the same on the Indian, Honda, you get the point. Harley has some tough competition out there.

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They will eventually run out of Dinosaurs to buy Dinosaurs...

[scottt]

They will eventually run out of Dinosaurs to buy Dinosaurs...

Wouldn't go that far, there's a market for simplier mechanicals as long as they are well engineered and quality  built. If Harley was built like a SnapOn tool for example, all American made with modern features, great suspension they would have a huge market return.

Add to that American made clothing and accessories.

Accept the fact that your going to be a smaller company because the market has shrunk, don't try forcing it.

Be true to your brand name and what it represents. Put your customers back as your top priority, not wall street.

Require motorcycle riding experience and passion as a requirement for HD management and dealership ownership. Stop requiring dealers to build zillion dollar facilities.



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[Tony Smith]

I agree except when you get to running a full quart low.  A pint low is considered to be within the normal operating range, a full quart is marginal at best.  Remember, that motor oil has many functions.  It is a lubricant and friction reducer of course, but it is also a coolant.  That's a very important function in something that runs as hot as a Harley engine.  It also removes and suspends contaminants (I still remember when they called it detergent oil back in the day), and prevents acid buildup due to combustion byproducts.  Reduce the amount of oil below the design parameters and you can negatively affect those and other characteristics.

It shouldn't be necessary to run less than the specified amount of oil in any engine in order to cover up flaws in the engine design.  The fact that many of us ran a pint low to cover up the breather issue on the Twin Cams doesn't make it right, it just points out how Harley constantly creates problems and then sits back while the customers and the aftermarket attempt to address those problems because Harley doesn't.  Btw, unless you run an M8 about 4.5 quarts low, reducing the amount of oil is not going to fix sumping. 

Jerry

Jerry, can you give me a quick description of what sumping is?  I have no idea what to watch out for on my 19. My 17 didn’t have any issues, or so I thought.  Thanks


Tony

[OBB]

Wouldn't go that far, there's a market for simplier mechanicals as long as they are well engineered and quality  built. If Harley was built like a SnapOn tool for example, all American made with modern features, great suspension they would have a huge market return.

Add to that American made clothing and accessories.

Accept the fact that your going to be a smaller company because the market has shrunk, don't try forcing it.

Be true to your brand name and what it represents. Put your customers back as your top priority, not wall street.

Require motorcycle riding experience and passion as a requirement for HD management and dealership ownership. Stop requiring dealers to build zillion dollar facilities.



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And if it was built like a SnapOn tool, you'd be paying $100 a week for the next 20 years....

[RivRaptor]

Agreed!

Wouldn't go that far, there's a market for simplier mechanicals as long as they are well engineered and quality  built. If Harley was built like a SnapOn tool for example, all American made with modern features, great suspension they would have a huge market return.

Add to that American made clothing and accessories.

Accept the fact that your going to be a smaller company because the market has shrunk, don't try forcing it.

Be true to your brand name and what it represents. Put your customers back as your top priority, not wall street.

Require motorcycle riding experience and passion as a requirement for HD management and dealership ownership. Stop requiring dealers to build zillion dollar facilities.



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[Kosmic Ken]

Today I was reading the 2019 manual for touring Harley models. On page 2-52 re:excessive oil use they have listed a number of things to be checked out (I have not included everything listed as some don't apply to my 4 week old 2019 Road Glide CVO). There are four items listed that I think apply to the 2019 117 cu. in. motor. Restricted oil return line; Restricted breather operation; Restricted oil filter; Plugged Crankcase scavenge port. So, at this point in time my dealer says that they will investigate each of these sequentially, then change the oil and send me out with follow up every 1,000 km (625 miles). If this does not solve the problem I will be demanding a new motor. Failing that I will be taking back my 2014 CVO Limited that they now have on the showroom floor.

[grc]

Today I was reading the 2019 manual for touring Harley models. On page 2-52 re:excessive oil use they have listed a number of things to be checked out (I have not included everything listed as some don't apply to my 4 week old 2019 Road Glide CVO). There are four items listed that I think apply to the 2019 117 cu. in. motor. Restricted oil return line; Restricted breather operation; Restricted oil filter; Plugged Crankcase scavenge port. So, at this point in time my dealer says that they will investigate each of these sequentially, then change the oil and send me out with follow up every 1,000 km (625 miles). If this does not solve the problem I will be demanding a new motor. Failing that I will be taking back my 2014 CVO Limited that they now have on the showroom floor.

I looked back in this thread and didn't see an earlier post from you about your current bike; care to enlighten us as to what your 2019 is doing that caused you to conclude you have a problem?  Just curious.

Jerry

[Kosmic Ken]

Sorry Jerry, I just kinda jumped in didn't I. The day after the HD shop completed the 1,000 mile service on my 2019 Road Glide CVO I left on a 5,000 mile trip to western Canada and Northwest USA. Around the 2500 mile point I checked the oil level. I must have checked 3 more times as I couldn't believe that it was down 1 1/2 quarts (HD synthetic oil). I filled it to the cold full mark and departed for home (1200 miles). I noted the oil level was going down a bit every time I checked and, finally, at home a final check showed it down another quart (USA). The mufflers are heavy with carbon and there are no other signs that the oil may be lost another way.

[HOGMIKE]

Sorry Jerry, I just kinda jumped in didn't I. The day after the HD shop completed the 1,000 mile service on my 2019 Road Glide CVO I left on a 5,000 mile trip to western Canada and Northwest USA. Around the 2500 mile point I checked the oil level. I must have checked 3 more times as I couldn't believe that it was down 1 1/2 quarts (HD synthetic oil). I filled it to the cold full mark and departed for home (1200 miles). I noted the oil level was going down a bit every time I checked and, finally, at home a final check showed it down another quart (USA). The mufflers are heavy with carbon and there are no other signs that the oil may be lost another way.

Sounds like you may give your dealer a shot at fixing the issue?
If they don’t know the procedure for checking (some dealers do not) you might show them your manual.
As long as there is a paper trail with the bike you have recourse.
Sometimes you have to go to another dealership or push harder to get things fixed.
Lack of customer service and poor excuses is common to some dealers I’m afraid.
See if you can build a relationship with your service manager. Sometimes that helps.
JMHO
 

[Kosmic Ken]

Hi Hogmike,
I feel pretty confident with my dealer and I do have a good working relationship with the service manager. The shop owner and I are on a first name basis as well. You're right - keep all records of any service done to help with recourse. July 18 is my date for them to start solving this issue; I will try to remember to post any outcome.

[grc]

Ken, what you experienced is NOT normal or acceptable, but you need to be prepared for the old "1 quart in a thousand miles is normal" BS Harley has been using for decades.  Hopefully your dealer service manager will ignore that BS and just do what's necessary to fix your problem.  If I followed your post properly, you added 2.5 quarts in approximately 3700 miles (or 2.5 quarts in 2700 miles if you meant you first checked at 2500 miles on the odometer, not 2500 miles into the trip).  If 3700 miles that would be about 1500 miles per quart, if 2700 miles that would be 1000 miles per quart.  Neither would be acceptable of course, but I thought I should warn you about that old 1000 per quart is OK story Harley likes to peddle.  Good luck, and I hope they do what's right.

Jerry

[mark]

Ken, what you experienced is NOT normal or acceptable, but you need to be prepared for the old "1 quart in a thousand miles is normal" BS Harley has been using for decades.  Hopefully your dealer service manager will ignore that BS and just do what's necessary to fix your problem.  If I followed your post properly, you added 2.5 quarts in approximately 3700 miles (or 2.5 quarts in 2700 miles if you meant you first checked at 2500 miles on the odometer, not 2500 miles into the trip).  If 3700 miles that would be about 1500 miles per quart, if 2700 miles that would be 1000 miles per quart.  Neither would be acceptable of course, but I thought I should warn you about that old 1000 per quart is OK story Harley likes to peddle.  Good luck, and I hope they do what's right.

Jerry

This is the BS HD pumped out when the 110s were having oil consumption issues...and what caused me to get rid of my 2010 CVO SG.  Like Jerry stated, HD covered up the 110 problem by claiming one qt. per 1,000 is within specs.  If the dealer performs the checks outlined and there's still no change in your oil consumption, prepare yourself for "they all do that - one qt. per 1,000 mi. is within specs."   

[HOGMIKE]

My 2017 114 didn’t sump at 7000 miles
My 2019 117 didn’t sump at 6000 miles

What am I doing wrong?

 

[grc]

My 2017 114 didn’t sump at 7000 miles
My 2019 117 didn’t sump at 6000 miles

What am I doing wrong?

 

Some people are just luckier than others Mike.  I don't think anyone has claimed that every M8 either has sumped or will in the future; like all of the previous major issues Harley has had over the years some bikes fail and some don't, and the reasons vary from luck of the draw due to the large amount of variation in Harley processes, to the wide variation in how different people ride.  Short of beating the bike to death, the way people ride should not make a difference as the bikes are supposed to be designed to handle all reasonable forms of use.  I can think of several people on this site who have had multiple engine failures with Twin Cams, yet their riding style is not even close to being abusive.  The same is true of the M8's, we have several people on the site who have had more than one engine fail.  There are underlying design and manufacturing causes of these failures, and Harley has not addressed them on the M8 just as they never really addressed the issues on the TC110's. 

Jerry

[HOGMIKE]

Some people are just luckier than others Mike.  I don't think anyone has claimed that every M8 either has sumped or will in the future; like all of the previous major issues Harley has had over the years some bikes fail and some don't, and the reasons vary from luck of the draw due to the large amount of variation in Harley processes, to the wide variation in how different people ride.  Short of beating the bike to death, the way people ride should not make a difference as the bikes are supposed to be designed to handle all reasonable forms of use.  I can think of several people on this site who have had multiple engine failures with Twin Cams, yet their riding style is not even close to being abusive.  The same is true of the M8's, we have several people on the site who have had more than one engine fail.  There are underlying design and manufacturing causes of these failures, and Harley has not addressed them on the M8 just as they never really addressed the issues on the TC110's. 

Jerry

Overall I would have to agree. My 2017 had multiple problems not engine related.
I had to fight the dealership to fix the issues as they just parroted what the factory told them.
Lack of customer service and technician knowledge at the dealer level seems to be pretty poor at some places.
Maybe I expected more seeing how my Harley was the same price as the TWO bmws I had my eye on!
I’ll keep my 2019 only cause I like the paint and get the ESP. No more new Harleys for me.
JMHO

[Placey58]

I have 2 questions. 
1. How can I find out the build date on my 2019 CVO Limited?

2. When did the factory start installing the new oil pumps?

[HOGMIKE]

I have 2 questions. 
1. How can I find out the build date on my 2019 CVO Limited?

2. When did the factory start installing the new oil pumps?

1: left front frame downtube. Sticker with all sorts of info on it.

2: I was told starting late 2018, but not too sure of my source.
 

[pooj10]

I guess so far I have been lucky with my 2019 CVO Street Glide. I had Stage IV installed on day one and so far no sumping. We have rolled over 6k so far this year and I ride the bike hard fully loaded with and without tour pack and passenger and at very high speeds at times.

[Mustang65]

I just traded in an 18 Street Glide 107 with sumping issues for a 19 Street Glide CVO 117. This thread is not giving me a lot of confidence that I will not encounter the same issue with my new ride

[SHRADER]

Fellow HBRR member, and general all around nice guy, TN Posted certain technical information introduced at the dealer meeting concerning yet another new oil pump for all M8 motors that was a rolling change made to all 2020 and any 2019 models manufactured after May 22 2019. They changed the distribution within the pump housing to increase scavenging from the crankcase 44 percent, and reducing scavenging from the cam chest area.

Maybe this will help fix the sumping issue.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Fellow HBRR member, and general all around nice guy, TN Posted certain technical information introduced at the dealer meeting concerning yet another new oil pump for all M8 motors that was a rolling change made to all 2020 and any 2019 models manufactured after May 22 2019. They changed the distribution within the pump housing to increase scavenging from the crankcase 44 percent, and reducing scavenging from the cam chest area.

Maybe this will help fix the sumping issue.

Guess they looked at what the S&S pump was doing, as it has much increased case scavenging according to their web site.  I do not remember exact numbers but it was at least 33% more.

[grc]

Fellow HBRR member, and general all around nice guy, TN Posted certain technical information introduced at the dealer meeting concerning yet another new oil pump for all M8 motors that was a rolling change made to all 2020 and any 2019 models manufactured after May 22 2019. They changed the distribution within the pump housing to increase scavenging from the crankcase 44 percent, and reducing scavenging from the cam chest area.

Maybe this will help fix the sumping issue.

Certainly hope so, but I think we all know the real root cause isn't the oil pump.  Perhaps a higher volume (scavenge side) pump can overcome the real issue well enough to "fix" most bikes, but I'm guessing there will still be failures.  Kind of like when you use a straw in a soft drink bottle and the level of the liquid drops, exposing the straw to air, no matter how hard you suck on that straw you aren't going to get the normal amount of fluid.  If the oil in the crankcase isn't flowing by gravity to the pickup area for the pump fast enough, eventually even the best pump is going to suck air.  A better pump may help the system recover faster, but I doubt it will cure the real problem.  I guess we will see.

JMHO - Jerry

[Heatwave]

I sure hope no one that buys a 2020 sumps. If we see new guys posting about 2020s sumping in Oct/Nov this year, I can’t imagine how this market will react.

[Bav]

I see Feuling have released a vented dipstick in an attempt to prevent sumping on M8s. Any thoughts anyone?

https://www.easternperformance.com/feuling-3088-black-aluminum-vented-oil-dipstick-17-19-harley-m8-fltr-flhr.html




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[grc]

I see Feuling have released a vented dipstick in an attempt to prevent sumping on M8s. Any thoughts anyone?

https://www.easternperformance.com/feuling-3088-black-aluminum-vented-oil-dipstick-17-19-harley-m8-fltr-flhr.html




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Sold by many companies, they won't affect sumping, and they won't add performance.  In other words, a so-called solution in search of a problem, designed to relieve folks of their money by cashing in on worries about M8 sumping.  I recommend you keep your money in your pocket.

Jerry

[Heatwave]

What Jerry said. Completely irrelevant to addressing sumping. Unless the oil dipstick somehow vented the crankcase it'll make no difference to the issue of sumping. Now the latest 2020 oil pump "might" be a real solution if the scavenging "strength" is enough to overcome any vacuum in the crankcase.

[Heatwave]

product codes for the latest oil pump.

[2019CVONH]

What Jerry said. Completely irrelevant to addressing sumping. Unless the oil dipstick somehow vented the crankcase it'll make no difference to the issue of sumping. Now the latest 2020 oil pump "might" be a real solution if the scavenging "strength" is enough to overcome any vacuum in the crankcase.

I just bought a new 2019 CVO Street Glide and when I pick it up on Friday, will have the dealer installed Stage III with the S&S Blue Cam Plate and Oil pump. There are a lot of differences between this pump and the stock pump. This is my first HD so I hope I don't have issues as I'm riding my 2018 BMW K1600b to the dealer and trading that.

Wish me luck!

[grc]

I just bought a new 2019 CVO Street Glide and when I pick it up on Friday, will have the dealer installed Stage III with the S&S Blue Cam Plate and Oil pump. There are a lot of differences between this pump and the stock pump. This is my first HD so I hope I don't have issues as I'm riding my 2018 BMW K1600b to the dealer and trading that.

Wish me luck!

I assume you don't care about the warranty, since you're planning to use aftermarket parts.  Good luck, and I hope it works out for you.

Jerry

[Fier23]

Well went for a ride today. Ride it hard once then it started chugging and was very sluggish. Pulled the sensor from the bottom of the motor and had this much oil drained out.


Jeremy 2019 Street Glide CVO Black Forest

[Kosmic Ken]

You certainly seem to have a huge sumping problem!
Back at reply #63 I explained a bit about the problem I was having with oil consumption. I finally got the dealer/owner to listen to me. He instructed the tech's to find and solve the problem. They never had to get to a "leak down test" nor a compression test to see the problem. A scope into one of the spark plug holes showed oil on top of the piston. So, they tore the motor down to the crank. Scored pistons, scored cylinders and an oil ring slot that was perfectly lined up with the compression ring slots. Of course, oil was just blowing by into the cylinder. New pistons and rings, new cylinders, new cam bearings and all gaskets/seals were installed. Seems to be running just fine but winter closed in before I could get more that 400km on the rebuild. I kept asking for a new motor but Harley was having none of it. So, I have a new 2019 CVO Road Glide with a rebuilt motor. I guess I was not having a sumping problem; but an oil consumption problem. Lets hope that it's all problem free riding from here on. Already have reservations made to take in the Red Lodge MT rally mid July.

[Jock]

Found this video from a shop near me which provides the most detail I have seen on the web...no endorsement here just sharing the video...