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[muddypaws]

www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/02/20/did-harley-davidson-inc-make-its-numbers-by-using.aspx

[OBB]

www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/02/20/did-harley-davidson-inc-make-its-numbers-by-using.aspx

Fixed the link for you. It's missing the first w in your post.

[RoadDawg]

Sales might be down due to Victory, Indian and a few others, but the Harleys will still hold their value on resale better than the others. I've heard a lot of good things about Victory motorcycles but don't care for their looks at all.

[Cat Eye]

That graph is very misleading....because if you notice the "0"  for shipment and sales are on a different plane.  And it's states it for the 4th quarters only....and that's when they start shipping the new models. 

These types of % graphs are worthless....so in 2012 and 2013 they sold more bikes than they shipped!  I sure wish my business can do that magic.  What quarter does HD do their model year shutdown anyway.

I still feel Harley has one of the best business models in the world and from the Fools article, MOCO is just trying to manages production to meet market and economic forecasts which is all crystal ball gazing based on probability from economic forecasting.

Indian has a long way to go before they are even close to HD.  Just think how boring Harley would be if they only offer 5 different bike in only 3 colors.  What fun would that be while at bike week you come out of the venue and you see 50+ bikes just like yours in the parking lot.

[JCZ]

That graph is very misleading....because if you notice the "0"  for shipment and sales are on a different plane.  And it's states it for the 4th quarters only....and that's when they start shipping the new models. 

These types of % graphs are worthless....so in 2012 and 2013 they sold more bikes than they shipped!  I sure wish my business can do that magic.  What quarter does HD do their model year shutdown anyway.

I still feel Harley has one of the best business models in the world and from the Fools article, MOCO is just trying to manages production to meet market and economic forecasts which is all crystal ball gazing based on probability from economic forecasting.

Indian has a long way to go before they are even close to HD.  Just think how boring Harley would be if they only offer 5 different bike in only 3 colors.  What fun would that be while at bike week you come out of the venue and you see 50+ bikes just like your in the parking lot.

Like the 100th anniv. silver and black in 2003?     Where did all those bikes go, anyway? 

[tdkkart]

What fun would that be while at bike week you come out of the venue and you see 50+ bikes just like yours in the parking lot.

Would this be the place for the smart ass comment about flat black Street Glides??

[Cat Eye]

Would this be the place for the smart ass comment about flat black Street Glides??

LOL...that reminds me of my first NASCAR race.  I told my wife after we parked our car to look around for landmarks so we could find our car after the race.....she said no problem "we are parked by the #3 flag".  As everyone knows who has been to a race....there are hundreds of them.

[Rooster]

Like the 100th anniv. silver and black in 2003?     Where did all those bikes go, anyway? 

I believe they had 3 runs of those 100 year anny Black and Silver.

[OBB]

Like the 100th anniv. silver and black in 2003?     Where did all those bikes go, anyway? 

I think Chip's hoarding one in his garage isn't he?

[SBB]

I think Chip's hoarding one in his garage isn't he?

Yup I am.
Part of the plan for the garage at Eagle's Nest is a shelf to set the Silver and Black on.
It has been a great bike and it's a keeper.

SBB

[FLSTFI Dave]

I have a 100th anniversary Fatboy, the silver and black tins have less than 300 miles on them.  I changed them out for the Black with blue real fire limited paint set for the 100th.  See my avatar. 

Silver and Black was the best color for 03, and in my opinion the best Anniversary color I have seen.  I have a 13 Anniversary bike also.

[9 1/2 Beers]

 This report came out today  :

Harley-Davidson Inc. (HOG) “Lowering our Q1 ’16 estimates following weak U.S. sell-through trends in March” We are lowering our Q1 US retail unit sales forecast 300bps to -6.0% (33,350), which is below consensus of -0.1%.  Shipments tracked to 78,500 (-1.4% Y/Y), while ASPs trended to $15,456. Following double-digit Y/Y declines in January, a slight recovery in February, trends weakened further in March.  HOG lost market share at an accelerated pace Y/Y in March, resulting in an overall market share decline in Q1. Within our data we observed consumers buying an increasing % of current model-year bikes compared to the previous model year, the first time in over 2 years   
 

[guppytrash]

I think Ray Charles could see this coming!

Read on this forum and you find most the people who are here and have been for a while saying "no more NEW HD's for me"
Most here CAN afford to go in and throw down $45k for a new limited but are NOT willing too.
The product simply does not match the premium price tag.

Every now and then I get a weakness to just go get a new CVO... then the dealer says $15k for your trade in (2009 CVO ultra) and $40k+++ for the exact same model new.
Then reality... the new one will be about 30-40hp less than mine until I drop another $6k.  Add it up and in no time you are north of $50k



Granted the new one comes with all the new options....fairing mail slot, coolant leaking option, new stereo nav that I now here people complaining about and going back to their garmins.


Not to worry though... you will still get the top of the line 110 motor and all of its uhhhh???....character?

[dayne66]

I concur, guppytrash. Dealer will give me $27k cdn for my '12......then another $22k to 'up-grade' and start all over again. No thanks.

[guppytrash]

Yup
Project Rushmore...Project Rippoffmore.

From 08 touring to 09 with the frame change was a much bigger deal IMO but they didn't slam used prices on the 08's nearly as bad as they have with every thing pre Project Dumpmore.

Harley is showing signs of desperation... 750cc is an arena they will NOT be competitive in. 

Again JMO, but anyone buying a Harley 750cc is throwing a bunch of extra cash at a tank badge.  And that badge is not important to Gen Y and Gen millennium.

[Rooster]

I think Ray Charles could see this coming!

Read on this forum and you find most the people who are here and have been for a while saying "no more NEW HD's for me"
Most here CAN afford to go in and throw down $45k for a new limited but are NOT willing too.
The product simply does not match the premium price tag.

Every now and then I get a weakness to just go get a new CVO... then the dealer says $15k for your trade in (2009 CVO ultra) and $40k+++ for the exact same model new.
Then reality... the new one will be about 30-40hp less than mine until I drop another $6k.  Add it up and in no time you are north of $50k



Granted the new one comes with all the new options....fairing mail slot, coolant leaking option, new stereo nav that I now here people complaining about and going back to their garmins.


?Not to worry though... you will still get the top of the line 110 motor and all of its uhhhh???....character

Well said mr Guppy

[9 1/2 Beers]

 You are so right Mr. gruppy 

 Don't get me started on us doing the R&D for the MFG., we ride them , report a problem, they tell us it's normal, then they make a part # with an A,B or even C at the end of it.

 The babyboomers are getting to old to buy bikes, we've bought our bikes. $300.00 oil changes claiming to check anywhere from 30-50 points?

 Okay, i feel better now, of course this is just my opinion, I really do love to ride, there is nothing else (almost nothing else) like it. That open road when you crank the throttle, the wind in your face.

 Live life to the fullest

 Marty

[dayne66]

My next CVO will more than likely be used. When I was shopping for the '12....there wasn't much on the used market that piqued my interest......but, in the weeks following my purchase they were MANY!!

[guppytrash]

You are so right Mr. gruppy 

 Don't get me started on us doing the R&D for the MFG., we ride them , report a problem, they tell us it's normal, then they make a part # with an A,B or even C at the end of it.

 The babyboomers are getting to old to buy bikes, we've bought our bikes. $300.00 oil changes claiming to check anywhere from 30-50 points?

 Okay, i feel better now, of course this is just my opinion, I really do love to ride, there is nothing else (almost nothing else) like it. That open road when you crank the throttle, the wind in your face.

 Live life to the fullest

 Marty

Thanks Marty
Actually you said it best...I love to ride my bikes but I am riding the R1200GSA a lot more than I ride the HD any more.  BUT!  I still like riding the HD!
Enjoy what you have!

JMO but HD is going to need to step up in the next few years or they are going to be in real trouble. 
A CVO with at least a 100hp to the rear wheel from the factory with a modern suspension would be a good start.
A buddy (has Harley tatt on arm) just traded his CVO for the BMW K1600. (160hp and Electronic suspension)  Never thought I would see the day.
Pay attention HD your losing more and more every day!!!

[FLSTFI Dave]

A buddy (has Harley tatt on arm) just traded his CVO for the BMW K1600. (160hp and Electronic suspension)  Never thought I would see the day.
Pay attention HD your losing more and more every day!!!

I did a demo ride on Sturgis last year on the K1600 GTL.  10K less than my 15 SERGU.  Out performed the Harley in every aspect, top speed, acceleration, stability, cornering, stoping and every other performance metric.  It only lost in two areas and both those are subjective.  Styling and comfort.  I asked two questions after the demo ride.  Where do you mount Hwy pegs, they laughed and said all you harley guys ask that.  There are some other companies that make them.  I also asked about changing handle bars, again they laughed and said no.

That said, I'm still really tempted.  Between my wife and I there are 5 Harleys in the garage, 3 are mine.  I have a Harley Tat......

[HUBBARD]

I just can't even entertain the idea of riding, much less owning, anything but a Harley-Davidson Motorcycle.  To me, there just ain't no other Motorcycle.  That's why I joined CVOHarley.com  It's about Harleys!  Now, if that rattles some cages.......mission accomplished.  Later--HUBBARD     

[TN]

glad you own a CVO now Hubbard.   

HD is losing long time loyal customers because of their own arrogance. There will not be a new HD in my future and it's not because this old white fat guy is past the prime riding age. 


Jaded


TN

[sadunbar]

My long haul over the road bike is a 2007 SEUC.  It took a lot of time and money to make it reliable enough to go cross country without worries, including replacing the 110 motor, which I did on my dime.  Many of the issues I had with this bike still exist today on the current offerings.  I am not going to start over with another bike...     

[RGlideKid]

I used to try different makes of automobiles once upon a time.  But then my wife and I didn't have a closetful of clothes, vests, and t-shirts that all said "Ford" or "Chevy", either.  Not to mention having a garage full of bar & shield accessories and decorations.  And then there's the boots and gloves and leather jackets to think about.  Those 200 t-shirts won't look near as cool if I'm riding on an Indian the next go-around.
The way Harley is going vs. Victory or Indian - or yes, even BMW, it makes me wonder what my next bike will be.  Like most of you, the idea of only getting $20k on trade for a bike I have $45-50k in, and then having to buy the new one that comes with a few new ideas on it just doesn't set well.  And look what the new ideas get you sometimes.  The infotainment center with it's upgrades that don't really solve all the issues.  A GPS system that lacks terribly.  Glare on the screen that could have been fixed during the "Rushed-more" days of fact finding.  Leaking coolant systems.  A stock brake lever that not only sucks, it's marginally dangerous.  Poor handlebar design and no factory change-outs for it (still), but boy have we got the different grips, floorboards, and engine covers!  Oh, and by the way, don't you think these new t-shirts are cool?
Yes, I should have bought HD stock when it was in the low $20's, but I'd have sold it by now, too.  They've got too many issues and don't seem really interested in what we have to say - in spite of the Rushmore idea that I don't think impressed a whole lotta people.
Don't get me wrong, I love my Harley, and have loved all of them in one way or another.  And not having one would suck big time.  Heck, I could still wear my old harley clothes, anyway!
But if the MoCo doesn't get their collective stuff together, they're going to continue to fall on black days.  They've got some serious competition now from not one but two other American brands.

[JCZ]

I have absolutely no regrets....no second thoughts about buying used this time around and buying from a private party rather than a stealership! 

[RGlideKid]

I have absolutely no regrets....no second thoughts about buying used this time around and buying from a private party rather than a stealership! 

That may just be the way to go next time around for us, JC.  Granted, you do have a much larger populated "shopping area" than I do.  There are probably less than a dozen CVO's in this part of the country!   

[JCZ]

Harry, I bought it from West Virginia......or as Hubbard would say... West By God Virginia.   

Had to go all the way across the country to find a deal like that.  But for a deal like that.....I needed the long ride home. 

[guppytrash]

One of the major problems I have, and keep hearing echoed here by so many is that HD dealers want to paint a picture that project Rushmore is a total revamp.  It is a glorious redefining of the touring models. 
And we all know the truth! 
Same shiddy suspension, lifters, compensators, performance, etc. 
I keep hearing an echo..."I have bought my last new Harley"
I don't know if I have...but

Things I do know:
1 85hp to the rear wheel means project bike 
2 Air shocks mean project bike
3 same failing compensator means project bike
4 same lifters means about 25000miles ticking time bomb = project bike
5 FOR SURE I would like to buy another new Harley!  But I certainly will not being paying new price for a project Harley.






 

[Snapperkid]

Stopped in my dealer yesterday. They have bikes out the ass. At least 15 CVO's and still a couple of 15 CVO's. Must have 30 Ultra Limited's and a back room stuffed with new bikes. Don't feel right in there at all. I think anything over 35 for a CVO will stop the sales in their tracks. Proven right.

[mark]

glad you own a CVO now Hubbard.   

HD is losing long time loyal customers because of their own arrogance. There will not be a new HD in my future and it's not because this old white fat guy is past the prime riding age. 


Jaded


TN

After 15 yrs of Harleys I just traded my 2010 SESG on a 2016 Indian Roadmaster.  Smoothest, best riding bike I've owned.  Lots of torque.  In 20 min I can remove lowers, pop off the quick detach trunk, lower the windshield, and add a solo seat for a "Street Glide" look.  Dealer went below MSRP, gave me more on my trade than HD quoted.  Chrome forks, real leather seats, TPMS, good suspension, low seat height, one fluid to change, adding stage 2 cams and labor for about $650.  HD...are you listening?

[HighOnHD]

After 15 yrs of Harleys I just traded my 2010 SESG on a 2016 Indian Roadmaster.  Smoothest, best riding bike I've owned.  Lots of torque.  In 20 min I can remove lowers, pop off the quick detach trunk, lower the windshield, and add a solo seat for a "Street Glide" look.  Dealer went below MSRP, gave me more on my trade than HD quoted.  Chrome forks, real leather seats, TPMS, good suspension, low seat height, one fluid to change, adding stage 2 cams and labor for about $650.  HD...are you listening?

Cool. Maybe you should start-up an indianroadmaster.com website!

[mark]

Cool. Maybe you should start-up an indianroadmaster.com website!

I've already found one.

[HighOnHD]

Hey what is the url? Maybe I will join... username "DownOnIndian" and talk about how great the new CVO's are!

[JCZ]

After 15 yrs of Harleys I just traded my 2010 SESG on a 2016 Indian Roadmaster.  Smoothest, best riding bike I've owned.  Lots of torque. In 20 min I can remove lowers, pop off the quick detach trunk, lower the windshield, and add a solo seat for a "Street Glide" look.  Dealer went below MSRP, gave me more on my trade than HD quoted.  Chrome forks, real leather seats, TPMS, good suspension, low seat height, one fluid to change, adding stage 2 cams and labor for about $650.  HD...are you listening?

Rut-rohhhh.....don't go test ride a BMW or a Gold Wing.   

Tried that substituting one for another.....years ago with both BMW and Honda.  Both great bikes but they're just not a Harley so the lifestyle doesn't go with it.  And before you ask....it's one of those things....if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.  But.......I think you're about to learn for yourself. 

[charles05663]

Hey what is the url? Maybe I will join... username "DownOnIndian" and talk about how great the new CVO's are!

That might be a short conversation.

 

[TN]

   

[mark]

Hey what is the url? Maybe I will join... username "DownOnIndian" and talk about how great the new CVO's are!

HighonHD, this is what I find so peculiar about this site - CVO owners can post about the myriad of problems they've experienced with their $40k toys and everyone is OK with that.  But let one person post they are leaving the fold, and a loyalist pounces on them.  CVO owners have expressed dissatisfaction over the last several years with issues ranging from excessive oil consumption, compensator problems, lifter failure, valve guides and seals, limited choices of tires, failing chrome, leaking coolant systems, infotainment center problems, cam chain tensioner issues, faulty paint, etc.  Many of the posts in this very thread indicate HD owners are "cooling" to the brand.   

I would have loved buying another HD, but I drew the line at spending $40k on a CVO, then worrying if the lifters will fail, etc.  I've had two CVOs...the first one was great, the second, not so much.  It's no coincidence that HD customer satisfaction is down, while at the same time sales are down and stock prices are falling.  I didn't leave HD, I felt they left me.  I babied my last CVO, but it still used 1 qt. of oil every 1,000...which the MoCo claimed was within specs.  Does anyone really believe that?  I may own a HD again, but for now I've found something else.  Competition is always good for the consumer - hopefully the MoCo will up their game.  Lastly, while antidotal, look at an Indian dealer's trade-ins and you'll see who the new Indian owners are...it's us.  HD better pay attention to the war drums.         

[TN]

Mark, I hope the Indian exceeds yer expectations, good luck with it and keep us apprised.   



TN

[HUBBARD]

It's a "loyalty" thing to me.  I was brought up to "come home with who brung you."  I ain't never gonna' ride anything but a Harley......even ridin' bitch,  ......if it ain't a Harley, I'll walk.  Don't care about any problems my Harley may have, either.  If something don't work, if something breaks, if the Motor blows, I'll fix it...if I can't fix it, I'll have it fixed.  The ONLY Motorcycle with any CLASS, is a Harley-Davidson.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD

[HighOnHD]

And a good lesson it is! Wish I could say it like that

[grc]

Cool. Maybe you should start-up an indianroadmaster.com website!

And maybe you could start up a "highonkoolaid" website.

Jerry

[Fired00d]

And maybe you could start up a "highonkoolaid" website.

Jerry

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[HighOnHD]

And maybe you could start up a "highonkoolaid" website.

Jerry

I know Jerry. You and Mark are the biggest lovers of all things Harley. NOT! I suppose since Harley still has around 50% market share (BTW I know a lot of companies would be pretty happy with that) there are quite a few of us so called "koolaid" drinkers. I just don't understand gripping and complaining about something. Better to do like Mark evidently has and just move on and get over it. Just me I guess.

[guppytrash]

Harley sales

The title of this thread.

Not a thread to try and convince anyone to try, ride, or buy, any other brand but rather discuss sales.
I was a loyalist, own probably 50 Harley t shirts, garage is full of HD signs and crap, baseball hats, you name it....
Never thought I would replace my CVO with anything but another.

For me if I need to have the Harley badge on my tank in order to feel good about riding it.  Then I guess I will do what others here are saying and start fixing my current CVO with S&S
progressive and other aftermarket parts rather than buy new to be disappointed by the same well documented problems. 

Harley sales.

If I was a die hard Ford guy and they kept selling me the Pinto every year...well at some point even the die hards start to look elsewhere.  AND SOME WILL STILL BUY IT just because it says Ford.
 
We are a collective group who are WILLING to pay premium prices for Harleys top of the line motorcycles. 
I want another Harley but not another Pinto.

Harley sales.

Don't be offended if I guy comes here and says I bought brand X!  He owned a CVO!!!  AND HARLEY LOST HIS BUSINESS!
Can they earn it back...my guess is yes, in a minute, but not with the same weak product. 

Harley sales?

If any of the existing problems were not fixable with in the working profit margin of a $40k motorcycle I think we could, would understand.

Harley sales!!

If problems were not so often brushed of as "thats normal, they all do that" I think then there would be hope.

Harley sales??

No lesson here.






 

[HighOnHD]

Well back in the day you would hear (and probably participate in) the usual two guys going back and forth with my chevy is better than your ford. The usual Found On Road Dead, or Fast On Race Day etc. If I was participating in such a friendly back and forth with a friend of mine (done that) and all of a sudden my friend with a Ford let's say comes back at me and says " Ford is a big POS", and continues on ad infinitum about what a piece of junk they are. Well you might guess that I would tell that friend he must have something loose upstairs! Fact is that doesn't happen, right? Except is does seem to be happening here. I think something else is involved. Must be. Who keeps a POS.

That's what confuses me. If I hated my Harley(s) half as much as Mark and Jerry seem to hate theirs it would be a goner! No question about it! Nothing to do with sales.

I ride for pleasure. If my bike broke down all the time when I want to ride it... not fun. Pretty simple. People don't buy something for pleasure (and keep it) if it does not provide pleasure. When I ride my Harley I have a perma-grin on my face, thus pleasure. Nothing to do with koolaid.

I therefore think (in my opinion) much of what is going on here on this website (as far as Harley bashing) has more to do with sour grapes for being priced out. That is the issue. If so, say that. That is understandable. That is a separate issue though from whether or not the bike is a good quality bike. No bike or automobile is perfect, otherwise they would not have warranties. No need.

Sorry I can not get it across as well as Hubbard, but in any case... there endeth the lesson. 

[guppytrash]

I think you got it all wrong HighOnHD,
I think we are all passionate about our HD's but tired of the same issues.
Last year we got a new wake board boat...its been flawless.
Last year we bought a new Grand Cherokee Summit for my wife...flawless.

I have been to the HD dealer several times in the last 2 years with intentions of leaving on a new CVO.  I always said when they make them water cooled I'm getting a new one.
Then I think of all the issues I have had with my 09, lifters, stereo, heated grips, seat, compensator,... read some of the problems guys are having with water leaks and stereo issues and
I just think I'll wait until they make some REAL changes.

Then I go home jump on the 2014 BMW R1200GSA that I bought the year before for half the price of my CVO, marvel at the electronic suspension, how freaky fast the 1200cc motor is, how cool the Garmin GPS is integrated into the engine temp, tire pressure, etc etc and all controlled by a wonder wheel on the left grip. 

But Thank you as I think you have made me realize I don't really enjoy the Harley anymore.
I just couldn't see myself without it.  But it is just wasting garage space as for the last year I only chose to ride it out of guilt.

See for sale if interested in a 2009 FLHTCUSE4. 

[HUBBARD]

Harley sales



No lesson here.






 

Ah...contraire........there's always a lesson.     Later--HUBBARD

[mark]

What on earth did I post that makes you think I hated my Harley?  I didn't hate it, nor do I hate HD.  However, I am disappointed that in 2010 I spent, what $32-33k, for the top of the line bike at the time, but at only 10k miles, it began using oil.  It became a pain when taking bike trips having to pack a couple qts of oil, having to check the oil daily.  On trips, it got to the point that I lost confidence with the bike's reliability...sort of on pins and needles, waiting for an engine failure. I wasn't interested in spending a grand or two tearing into a six year old bike when I wanted to trade in a year or two.

I wasn't interested in dropping $40k on a new CVO, so had all but decided to buy a '16 RGS.  At Bike Week this year I stopped by Daytona Indian.  The place was packed...with riders wearing HD gear.  Happened to strike up a conversation with one of the mgrs there and told him to give me the sales pitch he'd give to a longtime Harley guy.  I became intrigued and started researching Indian when I got home. 

About the same time, a riding buddy from when I lived in Louisiana told me he got rid of his 2011 CVO RG and bought an Indian...and loved it so much, bought his daughter a Scout.  BTW, he was a long-time HD guy.  This past Fall, one of the guys in my riding group bought a SGS and had a wheel bearing fail at 5k miles.  The tech that repaired his bike said it wasn't that uncommon.  Another guy I ride with recently bought a '16 RGS and had a Boom Audio amp and speakers installed.  It's been months and he still doesn't have a stereo that works as designed.  The AVC doesn't work correctly and the amp cuts in and out.  He's had it at the dealer several times and they've flashed and reflashed the unit. He's to the point of having the unit uninstalled and putting back in the original.  You take everything in this post collectively, and that is why I decided to buy an Indian. 

If anyone feels the need to bash me because, God forbid, I'm not loyal to a multi-billion dollar corporation, go ahead, I have thick skin. 

Again, I didn't hate my CVO SG, but was just disappointed.

[iski]

I had an 07 CVO Ultra that spent as about as much time in the shop as it did on the road.  Broke down constantly, was a PITA because of a series of issues that would render the bike dead on the road.  After having enough of this POS, I traded it in for a 2010 CVO Ultra, which has been remarkably better.  Not perfect, not as reliable as the cars/trucks I have bought for the past....maybe 25 years or so...but better than my 07.  My '10 has been fun to ride, is set up the way I like it, would throw a leg over the saddle tomorrow & head anywhere no matter how far away, very unlike my '07.  Also have an 02 RK that I love long time, great bike.

As to HD sales, have been considering a new touring bike, a CVO, for about 2 years. Not seriously though & there is a reason for that.  The problems initially with the newer touring bikes seemed to indicate that HD decided to bring a product to market that was not really all that thought out, the Infotainment console issues & some others just are ridiculous when paying 40k for 2 wheels.

Did HD lose a sale here?  So far, yes.  Am I looking at other makes?  So far yes.  Do I like any of them well enough to buy one?  So far no.  In the next year or so I am looking to get another touring bike.  Will it be a Harley?  Not sure.  We ride what we choose to ride.  HD earns that choice, it is not a given for me.

[RGlideKid]

Am I looking at other makes?  So far yes.  Do I like any of them well enough to buy one?  So far no.  In the next year or so I am looking to get another touring bike.  Will it be a Harley?  Not sure.  We ride what we choose to ride.  HD earns that choice, it is not a given for me.

Mike said this well.  Am I looking at other makes?  Of course!  I don't hate my bike either.  I love it.  I love Harley and their bikes.  But that doesn't stop me from being disappointed in the direction they're headed.  Heck, I'd be a fool not to look at the competition!
Do I like any of them well enough to quit Harley.  So far...no.  But I have a feeling that if Harley keeps going in the direction they seem hell bent to go...and Indian and Victory (Indian particularly) keep going in the direction they are headed, someday I may jump ship.  And who could blame me at that time?
I ride what I choose, and I chose a bike I love.  The MoCo's just been a fair disappointment to many of us for some time.  Us not quitting on them is a sign even a blind man could see...we still love Harleys.

[HighOnHD]

Mike said this well.  Am I looking at other makes?  Of course!  I don't hate my bike either.  I love it.  I love Harley and their bikes.  But that doesn't stop me from being disappointed in the direction they're headed.  Heck, I'd be a fool not to look at the competition!
Do I like any of them well enough to quit Harley.  So far...no.  But I have a feeling that if Harley keeps going in the direction they seem hell bent to go...and Indian and Victory (Indian particularly) keep going in the direction they are headed, someday I may jump ship.  And who could blame me at that time?
I ride what I choose, and I chose a bike I love.  The MoCo's just been a fair disappointment to many of us for some time.  Us not quitting on them is a sign even a blind man could see...we still love Harleys.

Exactly my point! I don't see virtually all of your posts include a derogatory comment about Harley. You are enjoying your bike. Great! Do a search on posts by Mark and Jerry and 90% have a complaint about Harley. Granted Jerry often includes useful information along with the jabs post after post. This does not sound like someone enjoying the "toy" that is supposed to be fun. Get rid of it if it is not fun, and get something that is if you can find it. Pretty simple to me, and that is the way I look at it. I am a simple man. It is not complicated. Why be miserable about it. Duh!

[TN]

I see it as not bashing the motosikles themselves but the MOCO business model they have chosen. My first CVO was an 07, what a POS that was.  07 CVO owners did get a special book sent to us to compensate for our troubles.    I tried to set myself up several times for a new CVO, what the hell was I thinking??

The HD executives that log into this site on a daily basis and refuse to participate is chickenchit too. This site is simply a focus group to the MOCO.


TN





 

[grc]

Exactly my point! I don't see virtually all of your posts include a derogatory comment about Harley. You are enjoying your bike. Great! Do a search on posts by Mark and Jerry and 90% have a complaint about Harley. Granted Jerry often includes useful information along with the jabs post after post. This does not sound like someone enjoying the "toy" that is supposed to be fun. Get rid of it if it is not fun, and get something that is if you can find it. Pretty simple to me, and that is the way I look at it. I am a simple man. It is not complicated. Why be miserable about it. Duh!

The solution, since the posts of Mark and myself seem to bother you so much, is to avoid reading them.  That's exactly what I usually do when I see one of yours, since I know it will normally be another shot at someone who has posted something less than all-out fan boy worship of the MoCo.  IMHO, it's not doing a true service to a company to gloss over all the warts and pretend everything is perfect when in fact it is far from perfect.  Companies that truly care use negative feedback to get better, and those who don't just ignore it and concentrate on lifestyle or a fancy new paint job or trinket/gadget to distract the easily distracted.  In case you haven't been paying attention, the ranks of the disillusioned have been growing rapidly over the past ten years.  Not everyone but you is wrong.

Jerry

[mark]

Are all of my post negative...certainly not.  However, I have used this forum to voice my opinion regarding issues that I have with the MoCo's end product.  Based on personal experience, coupled with the experiences of others on this site, it is my opinion the 110 is the most problematic engine introduced by the MoCo since the company's "rebirth."  Yes, I've complained about my 110 on this forum, because it is upsetting that a bike so eye-catching, that I liked, that cost so much, developed engine issues with so few miles.  I think any complaint voiced was justified.  Admittedly, I am a demanding consumer - and expected more from a company's top of the line product. 

We've about beat this to death, so I'm not going to post in this thread again, but will end with this:  In my riding group, four of us had CVO 110s.  I was the last man standing when I traded mine.  We're all still riding, but no one is on a CVO.  One guy experienced lifter failure on a trip and another, fearing lifter failure, traded soon after.  The third guy just never bonded with his CVO and traded for an Indian.  That's four former CVO owners that are now on a RGS, SGS, and two Indians.             

[HighOnHD]

Never realized it until now that I shouldn't log onto a CVO Harley website and profess that you actually enjoy riding it and that you are happy with it. I suppose I misunderstood. My bad. Cheers.

[CVOStreetglide]

HighonHD, this is what I find so peculiar about this site - CVO owners can post about the myriad of problems they've experienced with their $40k toys and everyone is OK with that.  But let one person post they are leaving the fold, and a loyalist pounces on them.  CVO owners have expressed dissatisfaction over the last several years with issues ranging from excessive oil consumption, compensator problems, lifter failure, valve guides and seals, limited choices of tires, failing chrome, leaking coolant systems, infotainment center problems, cam chain tensioner issues, faulty paint, etc.  Many of the posts in this very thread indicate HD owners are "cooling" to the brand.   

I would have loved buying another HD, but I drew the line at spending $40k on a CVO, then worrying if the lifters will fail, etc.  I've had two CVOs...the first one was great, the second, not so much.  It's no coincidence that HD customer satisfaction is down, while at the same time sales are down and stock prices are falling.  I didn't leave HD, I felt they left me.  I babied my last CVO, but it still used 1 qt. of oil every 1,000...which the MoCo claimed was within specs.  Does anyone really believe that?  I may own a HD again, but for now I've found something else.  Competition is always good for the consumer - hopefully the MoCo will up their game.  Lastly, while antidotal, look at an Indian dealer's trade-ins and you'll see who the new Indian owners are...it's us.  HD better pay attention to the war drums.       

Mark:

Your own experiences drove you to buy a new brand.....this time. We all know nothing is forever so you just may buy a new CVO the next time around.

FWIW: Some of the concerns expressed by people I know who switched are:

Hassles with warranty claims, difficulty with service people and considerable deminished value at sale or trade time.

I hope you enjoy your new ride and look forward to possibly seeing your posts here again in the future.

Other Jerry

[iski]

1st Q 2016   http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/harley-davidson-reports-first-quarter-2016-results-300253383.html

Lots of data, also if you scroll to the bottom of the page there is an interesting chart on mc registrations 2015 vs 2016.

[Rooster]

My long haul over the road bike is a 2007 SEUC.  It took a lot of time and money to make it reliable enough to go cross country without worries, including replacing the 110 motor, which I did on my dime.  Many of the issues I had with this bike still exist today on the current offerings.  I am not going to start over with another bike...     

That is exactly why I am still hanging on to my 07, well said.

[SDCVO]

1st Q 2016   http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/harley-davidson-reports-first-quarter-2016-results-300253383.html

Lots of data, also if you scroll to the bottom of the page there is an interesting chart on mc registrations 2015 vs 2016.

HD 2016 P&L is crazy healthy. I understand that is not the overall sentiment of this thread but most public companies (especially public motorcycle companies) would kill for that P&L. No question MC sales are down this year across the board but investment wise though not sure it is sustainable, looks very good.

[iski]

HD 2016 P&L is crazy healthy. I understand that is not the overall sentiment of this thread but most public companies (especially public motorcycle companies) would kill for that P&L. No question MC sales are down this year across the board but investment wise though not sure it is sustainable, looks very good.

HD is performing for their stockholders, the name of the game on Wall Street.  They have benefited some from export sales as well as perceived weak competition domestically.  Financially HD is a healthy company.  What is likely to happen is they will continue to lose some market share, looking at present trends plus maintaining the market dominance they have enjoyed is more difficult longer term.  They can continue to grow their business even if market share slips.  My opinion: HD rode the Baby Boom as well as anybody & positioned themselves very well to take advantage of it.  Boomers are aging and will be riding less due to age.  As Boomers die off the MC market may shrink.  As HD positions itself for the changes in the coming markets, will be interesting to see.

On the other hand, as to bike owners, some are die hard, HD only forever no matter what, some consider other brands for a variety of reasons, and others have already switched away.  Great financials are not why we throw a leg over a saddle, but if enough legs are not thrown over HD saddles, financials will eventually suffer.  As to improving overall reliability of their product, they look at service levels just like all companies, and have a target in mind.  Consumers want 100%+, in the real world companies shoot for what they think is acceptable & is not 100%.  Expect HD to be around a long time, also expect their competition to get more aggressive.  A fat market share like the one HD enjoys is very tempting to other brands, and siphoning away former HD owners is an easy way for others to grow their share.  My other opinion is, if our economy was truly robust, the MC market would be growing faster and HD would benefit more than others, the way it is currently positioned.

[guppytrash]

HD 2016 P&L is crazy healthy. I understand that is not the overall sentiment of this thread but most public companies (especially public motorcycle companies) would kill for that P&L. No question MC sales are down this year across the board but investment wise though not sure it is sustainable, looks very good.

BMW Motorrad Achieves Record Sales in 2015

     
Byron Wilson | January 11, 2016
BMW Motorrad marked its fifth consecutive year of record-breaking sales in 2015, moving 136,963 units worldwide. That’s a 10.9% improvement over sales of motorcycles and maxi-scooters in 2014.

Performance was strong in the United States, BMW motorcycle sales rising 9.3% compared to 2014 numbers, reaching 16,330 units in 2015. The best-selling model for the Bavarian brand in 2015 was the S1000RR in the US, the model accounting for more than 13% of sales in the States. The R1200GS Adventure and R1200GS figured highly in BMW’s performance in America as well.

“New and loyal customers; a broad, continuously enhanced model lineup; a high-performing dealer network; and accolades from the motorcycle press contributed to record growth for BMW Motorcycles in the United States, BMW Motorrad’s strongest export market,” commented Kris Odwarka, Vice President, BMW Motorrad USA in a company press release.

One of the most popular models in December 2015 was the R nineT. BMW is hoping to increase sales further in 2016 with an expanding model base that includes the R nineT Scrambler along with its new entry-level G 310 R.

I was curious to that statement that MC sales are down.  This was the first thing that popped up when I searched BMW motorcycle sales.

[guppytrash]

Another article.
MIC Reports Motorcycle Sales are Up Through June 2015

     
Byron Wilson | August 3, 2015
The Motorcycle Industry Council has released its sales figures through June 2015, and sales are up. Overall, total Motorcycle sales have reached 56,508 units for the month and are now at 277,336 units year-to-date. This represents a 7% increase compared to sales in June 2014 and a 5.1% increase compared to YTD figures recorded at this point last year.

The sales figures are determined based on the performance of MIC member manufacturers (BMW, Can-Am, Ducati, Harley-Davidson, Honda, Kawasaki, KTM, the Piaggio Group, Victory, Suzuki, Triumph and Yamaha).

The sales breakdown offers a look into different segments of the industry, and On-Highway motorcycles represent the largest portion of sales for the month, with 42,318 units delivered. YTD On-Highway motorcycles have reached 199,873 units, up 12.8% for the month and 7.2% for the year compared to 2014. The largest percentage increase in sales goes to the Dual segment, which grew 17.2% in June 2015 compared to the same month last year, with 4201 units sold. For the year, Dual segment motorcycles have reached 20,778 units sold, a 3.7% jump from YTD numbers in 2014 at the end of June.

Off-Highway motorcycles are down for June 2015 by 12.4% compared to June 2014, but YTD the segment is still up 3.1% compared to last year. Scooter sales are down for the month and YTD, below the June 2014 mark by 17.3% and 11.1% down for the year so far.

ATV figures are up, reaching a 10.7% increase for the month and a 1.7% increase in YTD numbers. UTV sales, however, are not represented in the report.

MIC June 2015

[guppytrash]

Harley has done a fantastic job of image.
Lots of people felt they could be just like the Country music singer or the Rock star because "they have a Harley too" 
THAT crowd is gone, and never really, IMO, were part of this group here at CVO.  They were HD owners because it was "in style"

Baby Boomers are the loyalists.  Most don't pound their chest with "I own a Harley" to ride it 100 miles a year and then park it next to their Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic in the garage.
But there was a time when that mentality sold a bunch of HD's.

I am on the fence of baby boomers/gen X and I do like HD's. 
But mostly I like riding and the name on the tank is less important.  I think Gen Y is where HD is really going to have trouble. 


I want HD to make a bike for me to buy again, but for now it is a slap in the face to have some knucklehead at a dealer tell me how improved the project rushmore bikes are over my 2009.
I know better and so does everyone here!
 
My next new HD will have some sort of modern suspension (electronic, magnetic, even air with an on board compressor) and at least 100hp to the rear wheel.   I mean, is that asking too much?

Until then put me on this years "not buying list" for Harley sales. 

[HUBBARD]

Enough, already.  If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD 

[iski]

I was curious to that statement that MC sales are down.  This was the first thing that popped up when I searched BMW motorcycle sales.

USA MC sales are down presently from the peak years of 2000 through 2008.  Those years are also contributing to the glut of used bikes on the market.

[guppytrash]

Enough, already.  If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.   

That is the nail on the head Hubbard! 
Exactly spot on to how I feel. 

[FLSTFI Dave]

I know Jerry. You and Mark are the biggest lovers of all things Harley. NOT! I suppose since Harley still has around 50% market share (BTW I know a lot of companies would be pretty happy with that) there are quite a few of us so called "koolaid" drinkers. I just don't understand gripping and complaining about something. Better to do like Mark evidently has and just move on and get over it. Just me I guess.

Harley keeps dropping market share.  Sure they have 50% or so, but its down, and trending that way.

Why?  Indian, and Victory are eating into it as are others.  Why?  Harley refuses to fix known mechanical problems, that repeat the selfs.

Everyone know harley lifters fail on the CVO's.  They failed on my 09 at 45K miles, a friends 14 with only 21K miles.  Compensator failed on my 09, my 12 and now on my 15.  I know another 15 SERGU that just had the motor replaced.

Pretty sad that the lifter and compensator issues have not been corrected by Harley in 6 or 7 years now.  They know of the issue, but they count on most people not riding them enough to have them fail under warranty or even in the 6 or more years they own the bike.

I personally love the Road Glide, I'm on my 3rd CVO road glide.  47K on one, 46K on one and 35,600 on my current 15.  I will most likely get a 17 CVO road glide if they make one.  However I will still bitch about all the thinks they do not have right.  And I will continue to enjoy riding the wheels off it.  I tend to find the flaws quick as I put 20K a year on my bike.

My 07 Impala, cost 1/2 the cost of my 15 CVO Road Glide ultra.  At over 140K miles not one failed component in the engine.  In fact not one warranty issue on the car.  Yet my CVO is in for its 5th warranty issue and also a failed engine component. 

[Para Bellum]

Local dealer just sent out a special e-newsletter with only one item in it: announcing special 2.99% financing.  Must be trying hard to move these.  See announcement below:

"To all our friends and customers,

We rarely send out an email with just one item in it, but this is worth it! We just were informed that Harley-Davidson is offering some incredible financing on select 2016 Touring Bikes, starting at

2.99% APR with nothing down!

Please read below for details. Other financing programs are available as well. Thanks for subscribing to our newsletter, and happy riding!


Now through June 30 only!

On  approved credit, Harley-Davidson® is offering 2.99% APR with no down payment on any new 2016 Street Glide® Special, Road Glide® Special, or Ultra Limited in stock. These are the best of the touring bike lineup, and now with the best financing we have seen in a long time. And we have OVER 40 of these models in stock!! See below for examples and details!"

[JCZ]

What happens on June 30th?   0% interest? 

[charles05663]

What happens on June 30th?   0% interest? 

I think that is current interest in the 2016's...

 

[Para Bellum]

I think that is current interest in the 2016's...

 

Good one.