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[ccr]

It'll be interesting to watch this one in the news.  I think it'll go back and forth before it ends up in the supreme court.  It's going to get a lot of attention, for sure.  I can see where this could have far reaching implications outside of the motorcycling community.

Yes, this is very interesting.  If one has to divorce oneself from a brand... as I suppose this is kind of what a patch is.  A Brand.  Would football players be forced to not wear the team colors if indicted on a federal charge?

[Screamin]

i thinks that the most bizarre part of the entire article

Gonna be hell removing the tats. Fire or knife  

[SPIDERMAN]

I know this post is going to be ill-recieved by some and I apologize in advance for what may be perceived as a knock against the Masons, but here goes anyway.

     The Masons and their various temples etc are a world-wide organization with roots that go back 100's of years. In any given year, I'd say it'd be reasonable to assume that a couple dozen of their members get arrested on a world-wide basis. Using that as an example, I do not see how a judge could sieze the Mason's trademarked identity. A stretch ?  Perhaps, but justice is blind in this country and so long as only a fraction of an organization can be proven to be engaged in criminal activity, the organization itself cannot be held accountable. I emphasize here, that this is what I believe a competant attorney would claim. This case is going to go very high in our jucicial system and before it is over, the politics of it are going to make stange bedfellows as the saying goes. Don't be surprised to see any number of law abiding groups get involved in this before it's through working it's way to perhaps the Supreme Court. It's a sure bet the ACLU will jump on the bandwagon, most probably before anyone else. And a lot of lawyers might see this as way to gain visibility (which often translates into business)

Just my $0.02

B B

[BLM777]

Yes, this is very interesting.  If one has to divorce oneself from a brand... as I suppose this is kind of what a patch is.  A Brand.  Would football players be forced to not wear the team colors if indicted on a federal charge?

Very different circumstance.  The football player analogy indicates that an individual is indicted on a federal charge rather than the team, as an organization.  In the Mongol instance, the "G" is proceeding on an overall RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) and will bear the burden of proving that the organization is, in fact being utilized to facilitate criminal acts.  I suspect, based upon the extensive criminal allegations alleged, the significant number of members involved, the scope of the criminal activity and the direct testimony of undercover agents that there will be little problem seizing the organization, its' assets  and any and all property associated with it.  There's several hundred court precedents on RICO prosecutions where the ownership of any and all business assets and/or trademarks have become government property.

[FLYNDYNA]

I know this post is going to be ill-recieved by some and I apologize in advance for what may be perceived as a knock against the Masons, but here goes anyway.

     The Masons and their various temples etc are a world-wide organization with roots that go back 100's of years. In any given year, I'd say it'd be reasonable to assume that a couple dozen of their members get arrested on a world-wide basis. Using that as an example, I do not see how a judge could sieze the Mason's trademarked identity. A stretch ?  Perhaps, but justice is blind in this country and so long as only a fraction of an organization can be proven to be engaged in criminal activity, the organization itself cannot be held accountable. I emphasize here, that this is what I believe a competant attorney would claim. This case is going to go very high in our jucicial system and before it is over, the politics of it are going to make stange bedfellows as the saying goes. Don't be surprised to see any number of law abiding groups get involved in this before it's through working it's way to perhaps the Supreme Court. It's a sure bet the ACLU will jump on the bandwagon, most probably before anyone else. And a lot of lawyers might see this as way to gain visibility (which often translates into business)

Just my $0.02

I concur 100%...

 The actions of the court are completely out of bounds. Seizing the properties of those who did wrong? Hmmm, maybe- depending upon how the properties relating to their abilities to commit the crimes, or if they were procured by finances accrued perpetrating a crime. Seizing properties of people who are innocent until proven guilty is a miscarriage of justice. Judicial inequities are becoming more rampant as time goes by, each time we turn a blind eye to situations like this, a little more freedom goes out the window.

B B

[SPIDERMAN]

Very different circumstance.  The football player analogy indicates that an individual is indicted on a federal charge rather than the team, as an organization.  In the Mongol instance, the "G" is proceeding on an overall RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) and will bear the burden of proving that the organization is, in fact being utilized to facilitate criminal acts.  I suspect, based upon the extensive criminal allegations alleged, the significant number of members involved, the scope of the criminal activity and the direct testimony of undercover agents that there will be little problem seizing the organization, its' assets  and any and all property associated with it.  There's several hundred court precedents on RICO prosecutions where the ownership of any and all business assets and/or trademarks have become government property.

I don't disagree with any of the above and I believe the lower courts will support the above HOWEVER as this works it's way up through the system, I suspect that the challenge of selective prosecution will come into play. I may be wrong, but the implications of this are a bit different than previous RICO based cases. La Cosa Nostra doesn't have any trademarks (or none that I'm aware of ) Same for the Asian Triads and the Russian Mafia and perhaps the largest of them all "La Emme "(literally " the letter M" ) with in excess of 50,000 member has no trademark.  While all have been subject to RICO prosecution and in many cases been convicted, I've never seen anything like what was put out today. This is not individuals being charged for belonging to a corrupt organization, this is the organization itself being charged. Several cities here in SoCal enacted ordances of a similar nature which failed to stand up in court. Like somebody said in another post, it will make for interesting reading.

B B

[naitram]

I'm guessing the "G" will try and prove that the club acquired most of its physical property through illegal activities. that there was very little if any clean money

[SPIDERMAN]

Sidebar here. An ex IHMC brother is a Mongol. While he avoided getting caught up in the "sweep" , he will not avoid this. There is no way in hell he'll give up his colors and everything else voluntarily.I am very worried for him and especially for his family. This aspect of this is going to get nasty.

B B

[naitram]

thats one way to back them into an assault or a resisting arrest charge

[BLM777]

I don't disagree with any of the above and I believe the lower courts will support the above HOWEVER as this works it's way up through the system, I suspect that the challenge of selective prosecution will come into play. I may be wrong, but the implications of this are a bit different than previous RICO based cases. La Cosa Nostra doesn't have any trademarks (or none that I'm aware of ) Same for the Asian Triads and the Russian Mafia and perhaps the largest of them all "La Emme "(literally " the letter M" ) with in excess of 50,000 member has no trademark.  While all have been subject to RICO prosecution and in many cases been convicted, I've never seen anything like what was put out today. This is not individuals being charged for belonging to a corrupt organization, this is the organization itself being charged. Several cities here in SoCal enacted ordances of a similar nature which failed to stand up in court. Like somebody said in another post, it will make for interesting reading.

B B

No doubt it will be interesting to watch.  As with most cases, the devil is in the details.  My guess is the thrust of the prosecution will be directed at the actual events that were perpetrated utilizing the organization to facilitate the acts.  For the judge to come up with as strong a finding as reported, the horsepower probably lies within the affidavits for search and arrest warrants.  I would take a wild guess that there is considerable more information regarding club involvement than what was brought forward by the uc agents.  The mere fact that 4 uc's were in the mix spells informants who assisted either knowingly or unwittingly getting them there.  Will be very interesting to see who gets rolled out to testify.

[ccr]

I there were UCs in the mix, they were there for awhile.  You don't have four newbies all arrive at the same time (I'm guessing).  And if they've been there awhile, this is a very old investigation, probably in excess of five years, again guessing.  Seems there is much more than what we see unfolding.  They only bring charges that are hopefully going to stick, or else they keep looking or walk away from the investigation.  Again, just guessing.

[sportygordy]

Not that I like the Mongols MC Club, but this is total B.S. Our government is getting scary.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hrHOy4sPvBKCo0W7ItrIx-pmaE4gD9402LE84

[JCZ]

Apparently the investigations started right after the Laughlin incident.  There were also four ATF women that had infiltrated their confidence, as well.....along with the four agents that became actual patch holders.

I think the thing that might give the gov't the hand up on this one is that they were recruiting members of street gangs that didn't even own a motorcycle.  There was a show on one of the cable channels about the Mongols on the series "Gangs" a couple of weeks ago.  They talked about this new president recruiting from the street gangs and that they were "part time" members of the Mongols.  I think I'll not be the only one that finds that very strange. 

But it's that kind of action that might just aid the government in winning on this particular one.  At least for awhile....till it gets overturned.

[SPIDERMAN]

That "street gang " you're referring to JCZ is "La Emme"

Nuff said

[murphy]

OMGs have been using street gangs to do their dirty work for a long time now.

These seizures are are result of association with an organization that has been deemed criminal, while members of the Masons have committed criminal acts, their group has not been formed for that reason.