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Author Topic: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS  (Read 30186 times)

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ak

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santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« on: November 12, 2008, 02:42:15 AM »

  Just got an E-mail(news letter) from to owner of Santa cruz hd    ...Received 10pm  ODD TIME?    He states that bad financial times and dept forced him to shut down, he also bashes the motor company in a 2 sentence rant that i didn,t quite understand..I forwarded the e-mail to 3 mods Jin,Ernie and JC maybe they can print e-mail and put on this thread..I don,t know how to do it.. my computer skills are a little sub-par but i get by..  I just puchased my 09 roadglide from them and they owe me some warrenty work  $hit   --AK
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 04:39:57 AM »

This closure  is probably going to be the start of more to come. You can go into dealers right now at high traffic times and no one is in the stores . Tell tale sign is a service department that is consistantly not full of bikes.  THE MUFFMAN


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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2008, 06:15:41 AM »

This closure  is probably going to be the start of more to come. You can go into dealers right now at high traffic times and no one is in the stores . Tell tale sign is a service department that is consistantly not full of bikes.  THE MUFFMAN





 Often times that's merely a reflection of the attitudes of the ownership and management that finally caught up, when people in business strive to do the next right thing, treat others with courtesy & respect their business flourishes. In my business, like all of yours, the money comes for your  existing  customers& referrals. When attitudes run those off, doors close...people go else where, most folks aren't out of money, they are tired of not being appreciated for their business..and they go where they are...>> Thanks Greg       
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2008, 07:02:23 AM »


 Often times that's merely a reflection of the attitudes of the ownership and management that finally caught up, when people in business strive to do the next right thing, treat others with courtesy & respect their business flourishes. In my business, like all of yours, the money comes for your  existing  customers& referrals. When attitudes run those off, doors close...people go else where, most folks aren't out of money, they are tired of not being appreciated for their business..and they go where they are...>> Thanks Greg       

Well said. My comments are part and parcel as to what can happen when they don't follow your comments. I have been in the construction related business for 29 years & have probably seen well over a hundred companies like mine come & go during that time frame.  THE MUFFMAN
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2008, 07:41:33 AM »

  Just got an E-mail(news letter) from to owner of Santa cruz hd    ...Received 10pm  ODD TIME?    He states that bad financial times and dept forced him to shut down, he also bashes the motor company in a 2 sentence rant that i didn,t quite understand..I forwarded the e-mail to 3 mods Jin,Ernie and JC maybe they can print e-mail and put on this thread..I don,t know how to do it.. my computer skills are a little sub-par but i get by..  I just puchased my 09 roadglide from them and they owe me some warrenty work  $hit   --AK


Lets see that email!

 ::)
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2008, 08:14:25 AM »


 Often times that's merely a reflection of the attitudes of the ownership and management that finally caught up, when people in business strive to do the next right thing, treat others with courtesy & respect their business flourishes. In my business, like all of yours, the money comes for your  existing  customers& referrals. When attitudes run those off, doors close...people go else where, most folks aren't out of money, they are tired of not being appreciated for their business..and they go where they are...>> Thanks Greg       

Well stated Greg.  It's all about the business practices that you mention as to how well some dealerships survive the financial downturn.  I'm personally knowledgeable of 2 dealerships whose numbers are currently exceeding those of previous years.  Also a great time for a HD dealership purchase ........  :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2008, 09:51:02 AM »

 Andy are they closing both dealerships Santa Cruz and Watsonville. If anything I thought it would be the one in Watsonville.
 Everytime we have been in S.C. H.D. they were busy.  :nixweiss:
Sounds like bad management.
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ak

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2008, 10:37:29 AM »

Andy are they closing both dealerships Santa Cruz and Watsonville. If anything I thought it would be the one in Watsonville.
 Everytime we have been in S.C. H.D. they were busy.  :nixweiss:
Sounds like bad management.
    Yes both stores Greenvalley and Soqel  I think your right... You,ve got to be ready for the downturns and control your overhead... I,ve been thru 5 downturns the 1st one hurt the next 4 I saw as vacation opertunites   --- AK
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2008, 10:58:23 AM »

  Just got an E-mail(news letter) from to owner of Santa cruz hd    ...Received 10pm  ODD TIME?    He states that bad financial times and dept forced him to shut down, he also bashes the motor company in a 2 sentence rant that i didn,t quite understand..I forwarded the e-mail to 3 mods Jin,Ernie and JC maybe they can print e-mail and put on this thread..I don,t know how to do it.. my computer skills are a little sub-par but i get by..  I just puchased my 09 roadglide from them and they owe me some warrenty work  $hit   --AK

Andy,
Why would you even worry about warrenty work? Who owns a Harley and has any work done on them. :huepfenlol2: That will teach you to make them stick to MSRP on that bike. :huepfenlol2:

Don...............

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2008, 11:02:09 AM »

Andy, was it work outside of warranty arranged separately with them as part of the purchase?  Or actual warranty work that'll just be more hassle now because you've got to take it farther away?
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ak

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2008, 11:11:56 AM »

Andy, was it work outside of warranty arranged separately with them as part of the purchase?  Or actual warranty work that'll just be more hassle now because you've got to take it farther away?
  Don-There is a small paint blemish on the outer fareing and Bag extention... Santa cruz took photos and ordered from the motor company..I thing this dealer Burned his bridges with the HD..Two weeks ago they have a 50% off sale  for 4 hours on a saturday I was going to go but went to Fred &Gina,s Wedding instead--AK
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 11:15:07 AM »

  Don-There is a small paint blemish on the outer fareing and Bag extention... Santa cruz took photos and ordered from the motor company..I thing this dealer Burned his bridges with the HD..Two weeks ago they have a 50% off sale  for 4 hours on a saturday I was going to go but went to Fred &Gina,s Wedding instead--AK

Sorry to read all this Andy.  Hopefully the parts order and blemish history already exist in HD's parts system somewhere and another dealer can pick up the ball.  Certainly feels like something that will be a lot more drama and effort than it should have been though.  Good luck with it.  Hope it's easy as it should be.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 11:15:23 AM »

I'd love to read the email as well.
AJ

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 11:29:15 AM »

I'd love to read the email as well.
AJ

Well JC is on the site and maybe he can post it!

JC?  :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:

 ;D
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2008, 11:33:22 AM »

Here is the link to the E-mail that was sent.

http://santacruzharley.com/blog/2008/11/12/thank-you/

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2008, 11:39:29 AM »

Well Andy,

One less lunch destination for us.  Hopefully HD will send the painted parts to a different dealer of your choice.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2008, 11:40:40 AM »

Interesting 1st post and welcome aboard. Interested or disinterested party?

"What was disappointing was Harley’s self-absorbed, garbled response.  Avoid.  Don’t make a decision.  Lack of care and concern for the welfare of the customer and the welfare of good and decent employees.  With a buyer willing to invest and carry our collective vision forward, this never should have happened.  A grave lack of focus and leadership resulted in a wonderful opportunity slipping away.  Shame on you Harley.  As we learned long ago - you take care of your customers and you take care of your employees at all costs.  Perhaps the importance of that has been lost among the cubicle rats.

Enough of that.  I seldom call out the mothership.  In this case, they need to be accountable.  But, alas."

Too little, too late! I've been saying that for years. Now it looks like their shortsightedness and greed is coming back to bite em in the ass!!! He should'a spoke out to them sooner. All the dealers should have, but their greed is also part of the problem. Nice goodbye letter though. ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2008, 11:47:40 AM »



Very interesting!

And welcome to the site Streak!


 :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2008, 11:49:45 AM »

Well, we know one thing for sure.  "Mr.Mike" will never get another shot at a HD dealership.......
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2008, 11:54:09 AM »

Well, we know one thing for sure.  "Mr.Mike" will never get another shot at a HD dealership.......

How far is Jim from there?
Jim needs a Harley dealership!

 :bananarock:

Edited to add
Excuse me!
Let me get it right.
Harley needs a dealer like Jim!

         :2vrolijk_21:
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 11:56:27 AM by Silver-Black »
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2008, 11:55:18 AM »

Well, we know one thing for sure.  "Mr.Mike" will never get another shot at a HD dealership.......

We're of course in no position to know the history between the dealership and the MoCo.  Nor the business status the dealerships themselves.  His general indictments of the MoCo, however, aren't dissimilar from the types of complaints we find ourselves voicing here repeatedly and over the course of several years.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2008, 12:00:42 PM »

Thank you!  I feel the love!

I paid for prepaid maintenance with my purchase a year ago.  Anyone know if I'm SOL or if there is any recourse?   :nixweiss:
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2008, 12:01:08 PM »

How far is Jim from there?
Jim needs a Harley dealership!

 :bananarock:

Edited to add
Excuse me!
Let me get it right.
Harley needs a dealer like Jim!

         :2vrolijk_21:


Jim is about 60 miles away, but 10 minutes in either direction from Jim is an HD dealership.  Besides, Jim takes his time an does things right.  The MoCo wouldn't be able to handle that since it's all about numbers to them.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2008, 12:06:23 PM »

Thank you!  I feel the love!

I paid for prepaid maintenance with my purchase a year ago.  Anyone know if I'm SOL or if there is any recourse?   :nixweiss:

Almost certainly not.  Those types of pre-paid service plans not under a national contract and only with an individual business are rarely insured outside the business or have their funds escrowed.  That's just operating cash to them.  Factory warranties and national service contracts are handled by the dealer but with the dealer as only an agent of the larger entity sponsoring them.  What you had was dealer specific.  Feel the love.  Feel the sympathy.  But you're still very likely hosed on that part of your deal man.  Sorry 'bout that.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2008, 12:09:03 PM »

Jim is about 60 miles away, but 10 minutes in either direction from Jim is an HD dealership. Besides, Jim takes his time an does things right.  The MoCo wouldn't be able to handle that since it's all about numbers to them.


I know that Ernie!
But any dealership with Jim as an owner will do well.
Maybe even some from this site can help with financing.
Just a thought to toss around!

 :bananarock:
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2008, 12:11:07 PM »

Thank you!  I feel the love!

I paid for prepaid maintenance with my purchase a year ago.  Anyone know if I'm SOL or if there is any recourse?   :nixweiss:

See if you State dept of insurance regulates these contracts. If so, they regard them as a form of insurance and there would be recourse through your state guarantee fund.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2008, 12:22:23 PM »

We're of course in no position to know the history between the dealership and the MoCo.  Nor the business status the dealerships themselves.  His general indictments of the MoCo, however, aren't dissimilar from the types of complaints we find ourselves voicing here repeatedly and over the course of several years.

That's what I based my comments on, Don.  To publicly rip your drawers with the MoCo, would indicate to me that this problem goes way beyond the "downturn".  Corporate is working with troubled dealers daily on a "work out" basis as well as assisting in the sale of a franchise when necessary.  Hopefully, someone will snatch up this established dealership, base the new enterprise on customer service and make a pot of cash.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2008, 12:37:05 PM »

Any legitimate business going out is sad, but mostly for the employees and their families, in my view.  That said, I must put my .02 in.  The old Harley Dealers will survive.  I'm talkin' about the ones who have been here since the late 60's and early 70's.  The ones that eat, drink, and sleep Harley-Davidson.  The ones that have a passion beyond words for this product.  Like the ones in my immediate area that I know and respect.  Like Don Tilley, Gene Lumas, Ray Price, and Mike Adkins.  These guys treat people like people, not customers that have to buy something from them at more than a fair price.  While I have compassion for the employees, I have none for Dealers that gouge just because they can.  For the life of me, I cannot understand how anyone with any intelligence at all, absent health reasons, or circumstances beyond ones control, could go broke with a Dealer Agreement from the MoCo.  I'm talking about a reputable business man, with a business plan, with a LOVE for Harley-Davidson Motorcycles and the Lifestyle, and sufficently capitalized.  The ones that don't have those qualifications, and the burning desire to be successful in an agreement with the MoCo, are doomed in my opinion.  Like some of these dumb-a$$ed car dealers that the MoCo gave Dealer Agreements.  They will never get any of my hard-earned dollars.  The common law of business dictates you can't pay a little, and get a lot.  Nor can you pay a lot, and get a little.  It will come back and bite your a$$.  As my Dear Ol' Departed Pappy told me before he left this cruel world, "Pigs get fat, and Hogs go to slaughter."  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD      
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2008, 12:42:36 PM »

That's what I based my comments on, Don.  To publicly rip your drawers with the MoCo, would indicate to me that this problem goes way beyond the "downturn".  Corporate is working with troubled dealers daily on a "work out" basis as well as assisting in the sale of a franchise when necessary.  Hopefully, someone will snatch up this established dealership, base the new enterprise on customer service and make a pot of cash.

Couldn't help but have that as a first thought upon seeing this news also.  The employees and customers are hit no matter where any fault might be.  But hopefully before too much degradation of the local market is lost to other shops from this fracture a responsible and reasonable ownership steps in.

The other side to that, of course, is that perhaps the geographic area was too congested for its market.  So something may need to die and everyone and everything else is better in the long run for it.  Those more local would be the ones to speak to this.  As painful as it might be some businesses are going to fail though.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2008, 01:08:00 PM »

It is difficult to determine what the complete story is in this case, however, it will be interesting to see if any other stores close.   With the stock at $17.90 it does cause one to wonder what the impact of the economy will have on the dealerships especially those with big debt ratios
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2008, 01:20:07 PM »

There is no way they can pay a 6.5% divi with the revenues going forward.   :(

I don't know the deal at SC but I do know it takes two to tango.   :-\
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2008, 01:25:20 PM »

Well JC is on the site and maybe he can post it!

JC?  :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:

 ;D

As soon as I opened this thread, earlier.....I had a fire to put out, here at work.  Looks like it got posted, anyway.  Just an FYI.....at times I'll have this site open....maybe three or four threads at a time and still have multiple windows of work related stuff that I'm working on and this is buried in the back.

On to the topic........not making a judgement but I do find it interesting that Mike mentions his employees working on customers bikes, delivering special order parts, etc. on their time and at their expense.  Aside from that being in violation of labor laws, this dealership was known for marking their bikes way up (until very recently) and getting it.  Yet we have other dealerships here in Nor Cal that have sold at MSRP for years and they're holding their own.  

We'll never get the opportunity, but it would be very interesting to hear the other side of this story.   :nixweiss:
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2008, 01:28:50 PM »

How far is Jim from there?
Jim needs a Harley dealership!

 :bananarock:

Edited to add
Excuse me!
Let me get it right.
Harley needs a dealer like Jim!

         :2vrolijk_21:


Uuhhh.......that is entirely the wrong direction for Jim to be moving in! I'm east, not west. :o
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2008, 01:38:46 PM »

Thank you!  I feel the love!

I paid for prepaid maintenance with my purchase a year ago.  Anyone know if I'm SOL or if there is any recourse?   :nixweiss:

If you paid for the extra maintanance with a credit card you may be okay. I know of people who used that recourse when they put large deposits on furniture etc. that was ordered but didn't get said product due to a company shutting its doors etc. Good luck. THE MUFFMAN
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2008, 02:06:20 PM »

If you paid for the extra maintanance with a credit card you may be okay. I know of people who used that recourse when they put large deposits on furniture etc. that was ordered but didn't get said product due to a company shutting its doors etc. Good luck. THE MUFFMAN

The killer there is the purchase being "a year ago."  Credit card companies are loathe to work with chargebacks initiated more than three to six months after original purchase.  It's one of those "the sooner the better" things.  Worth pursuing of course.  But I'd not have my hopes too high.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2008, 02:25:59 PM »

The killer there is the purchase being "a year ago."  Credit card companies are loathe to work with chargebacks initiated more than three to six months after original purchase.  It's one of those "the sooner the better" things.  Worth pursuing of course.  But I'd not have my hopes too high.

Still worth a shot. Over a year had gone by on this furniture closedown from the time they paid for the furniture never received  and from the time they filed. I think the trick will be to request before Santa Cruz HD has been reimbursed in full in regards to all that was owed. THE MUFFMAN
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2008, 02:28:29 PM »

Still worth a shot. Over a year had gone by on this furniture closedown from the time they paid for the furniture never received  and from the time they filed. I think the trick will be to request before Santa Cruz HD has been reimbursed in full in regards to all that was owed. THE MUFFMAN


It's certainly worth keeping finger's crossed for.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2008, 02:38:17 PM »

  Just got back from over the hill. I wanted to talk with some one about my parts.....The service manager was in a bad mood as can be expected.. He said no one new anything till 5 pm closing yesterday at which time they were told to come by today and pick up there chit....SO MUCH FOR PROPER NOTICE...   I was also talking with a guy( customer) who had fronted $250.. from debit card for parts yesterday late afternoon... He mentioned to me that an sol-cal buyer was working to buy the dealership and that the current owner asked the motor co. for a short sale regarding fees ,transferr, loan forgiveness and was shot down...  PS. JIM,S Fine right where he is-AK
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 02:41:23 PM by ak »
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2008, 03:10:01 PM »

  PS. JIM,S Fine right where he is-AK

We can't speak for Jim, but I believe I would stay where I am at also.  Money is nice but sometimes not worth the money or aggrevation.  He has a nice niche business now.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2008, 03:12:13 PM »

As soon as I opened this thread, earlier.....I had a fire to put out, here at work.  Looks like it got posted, anyway.  Just an FYI.....at times I'll have this site open....maybe three or four threads at a time and still have multiple windows of work related stuff that I'm working on and this is buried in the back.

On to the topic........not making a judgement but I do find it interesting that Mike mentions his employees working on customers bikes, delivering special order parts, etc. on their time and at their expense.  Aside from that being in violation of labor laws, this dealership was known for marking their bikes way up (until very recently) and getting it.  Yet we have other dealerships here in Nor Cal that have sold at MSRP for years and they're holding their own.  
We'll never get the opportunity, but it would be very interesting to hear the other side of this story.   :nixweiss:

That's what I was talking about.  If it starts coming back around to some of these greedy ba$tards, there will be weeping and knashing of teeth.  I wish bad for no one, but there are some people with HD Dealer Agreements that flat don't deserve the privilege.  I know one in particular that out and out lied on the application to become a Dealer, and has grossly mistreated some past employees beyond belief.  If it wasn't for his Daddy's money, he'd be flipping burgers at MickeyD's.  'Nuff said.  Later--HUBBARD        
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2008, 03:51:18 PM »

  Just got back from over the hill. I wanted to talk with some one about my parts.....The service manager was in a bad mood as can be expected.. He said no one new anything till 5 pm closing yesterday at which time they were told to come by today and pick up there chit....SO MUCH FOR PROPER NOTICE...   I was also talking with a guy( customer) who had fronted $250.. from debit card for parts yesterday late afternoon... He mentioned to me that an sol-cal buyer was working to buy the dealership and that the current owner asked the motor co. for a short sale regarding fees ,transferr, loan forgiveness and was shot down...  PS. JIM,S Fine right where he is-AK

I was expecting something like that from you and Ernie and others that are close by. :huepfenlol2:

You're right Carl.  And I suspect that this dealership will not be the last to fall for the reasons you stated.

Another interesting note along this vein.....HD Financial has still not lowered the interest rate to attract more buyers (as the auto mfg. have done).  I was surprised to learn that they're still up around 7 1/2%
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2008, 04:17:14 PM »

Being out in this market and knowing a little about the situation, I can assure you there is another side to Mike's shot at the Motor Company.  He's most likely been in a dire situation for a very, very long time and has been given more opportunities than one could believe to make thing's right..........finally enough is enough.
As far as more dealer's going down.  To those that think any well run dealership that treat's it's curstomers fairly will survive these days, is a stretch.  Those that have been around forever and own their property are in a pretty good position.  Dealer's struggling with mortgage payments, or high monthly rents rents can only reduce their costs by so much and are struggling severely.  In California 28% of all people own homes that their mortgage exceeds the value of their home.  There are few, if any people walking into harley dealerships out here and buying motorcycles, and I guarantee you a dealership cannot be profitable and stay in business without selling a certain volume of new motorcycles at, or near msrp.  Parts, Accessories, Motorclothes and Service business comes nowhere close to covering costs.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2008, 04:48:03 PM »

Being out in this market and knowing a little about the situation, I can assure you there is another side to Mike's shot at the Motor Company.  He's most likely been in a dire situation for a very, very long time and has been given more opportunities than one could believe to make thing's right..........finally enough is enough.
As far as more dealer's going down.  To those that think any well run dealership that treat's it's curstomers fairly will survive these days, is a stretch.  Those that have been around forever and own their property are in a pretty good position.  Dealer's struggling with mortgage payments, or high monthly rents rents can only reduce their costs by so much and are struggling severely.  In California 28% of all people own homes that their mortgage exceeds the value of their home.  There are few, if any people walking into harley dealerships out here and buying motorcycles, and I guarantee you a dealership cannot be profitable and stay in business without selling a certain volume of new motorcycles at, or near msrp.  Parts, Accessories, Motorclothes and Service business comes nowhere close to covering costs.

I would beg to differ there, Sir.  One of my close friends happens to be Harley Dealer, and we have shared information about the nature of our businesses, as I am a Western Star Truck Dealer.  It is every Dealers dream to have 100% absorption rate from parts and service, leaving sales as gravy.  I know for a fact HD has more mark-up on parts than I do.  I also know HD MSRP holds an attractive profit margin for the Dealer.  While nothing happens in the beginning until a Motorsickle or Truck is sold in our businesses, we now both enjoy the rewards of years of hard work and treating people right, and have our Parts and Service Departments paying the bills.  While anybody can sell a Motorsickle or Truck, or anything for that matter, one time, it's the repeat and referral business that makes one strong.  When a person finds out his a$$ been set to fire, he usually doesn't come back for more.  In any Dealership, the money is made in the Shop.  When you tilt the beam, and try to make it all on sales, one is doomed for failure.  It just won't last.  Not where I'm from, anyway.  There  endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD             
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2008, 04:51:48 PM »

"When a person finds out his a$$ been set to fire, he usually doesn't come back for more."



Ain't whistlin Dixie there Mr. Carl....

I got 4th new bike since 2000 this year, from a 3rd dealer.  Its a shame when you want to give somebody money..
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2008, 05:06:25 PM »

You nailed that one Hub.  In referencing the HD shops that I have been interested in Parts and Service carry the debt load.  One major difference in HD shops that many don't realize is that Motor Clothes can, in and of itself, carry the store.  Both of the above portions leave Sales wide open to provide the profit.  As you mentioned, it's all about the management concept of running a business that is in for the long haul as opposed to a quick hit. 
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2008, 06:47:46 PM »

I would beg to differ there, Sir.  One of my close friends happens to be Harley Dealer, and we have shared information about the nature of our businesses, as I am a Western Star Truck Dealer.  It is every Dealers dream to have 100% absorption rate from parts and service, leaving sales as gravy.  I know for a fact HD has more mark-up on parts than I do.  I also know HD MSRP holds an attractive profit margin for the Dealer.  While nothing happens in the beginning until a Motorsickle or Truck is sold in our businesses, we now both enjoy the rewards of years of hard work and treating people right, and have our Parts and Service Departments paying the bills.  While anybody can sell a Motorsickle or Truck, or anything for that matter, one time, it's the repeat and referral business that makes one strong.  When a person finds out his a$$ been set to fire, he usually doesn't come back for more.  In any Dealership, the money is made in the Shop.  When you tilt the beam, and try to make it all on sales, one is doomed for failure.  It just won't last.  Not where I'm from, anyway.  There  endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD             

Thanks for the response Hubbard - I respect your beg to differ and I'm not a sir, but I appreciate the formality :)  First off, I am in complete agreement with your words and the lesson that can be learned from what happened to Santa Cruz.  I'm not sure if you're calling me out, or not, but I too happen to be a harley dealer also and have some knowledge of what is takes to be profitable these days, at least here in California.  I do not know your mark-up on parts.  Harley's margin on accessories and motorclothes is more along the lines of 35%.  When you're turning items twice a year, that will not substantially cover the overhead.  I agree, harley msrp allows for a fair profit margin and I believe premium pricing has no place at a harley dealership.  The reality is motorcycle sales accounts for approximately 65%+ of a dealer's revenues.  There are not many, if any, dealers in California who can quite selling motorcycles for a profit and remain profitable regardless of what your friend is able to do with his dealership.  I invite you to lose one-half of 65% of your revenues and see how well your bottom line looks. We happen to be in the top 10% in customer satisfaction per Harley-Davidson and take great pride in customer relationships, so please don't lecture me on service and the shop - again I agree!  That is primary to doing things the right way, but service, parts, accessories and motorclothes revenues cannot support the business in our wonderful area - period!
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2008, 06:53:57 PM »

Thanks for the response Hubbard - I respect your beg to differ and I'm not a sir, but I appreciate the formality :)  First off, I am in complete agreement with your words and the lesson that can be learned from what happened to Santa Cruz.  I'm not sure if you're calling me out, or not, but I too happen to be a harley dealer also and have some knowledge of what is takes to be profitable these days, at least here in California.  I do not know your mark-up on parts.  Harley's margin on accessories and motorclothes is more along the lines of 35%.  When you're turning items twice a year, that will not substantially cover the overhead.  I agree, harley msrp allows for a fair profit margin and I believe premium pricing has no place at a harley dealership.  The reality is motorcycle sales accounts for approximately 65%+ of a dealer's revenues.  There are not many, if any, dealers in California who can quite selling motorcycles for a profit and remain profitable regardless of what your friend is able to do with his dealership.  I invite you to lose one-half of 65% of your revenues and see how well your bottom line looks. We happen to be in the top 10% in customer satisfaction per Harley-Davidson and take great pride in customer relationships, so please don't lecture me on service and the shop - again I agree!  That is primary to doing things the right way, but service, parts, accessories and motorclothes revenues cannot support the business in our wonderful area - period!

Just because I am curious, what MOCO dealership is yours?   :nixweiss:
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2008, 07:12:44 PM »

...

The other side to that, of course, is that perhaps the geographic area was too congested for its market.  So something may need to die and everyone and everything else is better in the long run for it...  As painful as it might be some businesses are going to fail though.

As the word of the automobile industry collapsing restructuring becomes apparent, many auto dealers are going to close. As of last week, 600 dealerships nationwide have closed. Rjobs & I have discussed this in another thread. Harley now has ~700+ dealerships in the US. It makes one wonder what the saturation point is? How many dealers are too many? Miker has purchased 4 motorcycles in the last 8 years and had only gone back to one. Why? In his market there are at least eight dealers within a 75 mile radius. I on the other hand have to travel 55 miles to the closest one.  Whit the credit "crunch" being as tight as it is, I foresee more consolidation.

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2008, 07:16:19 PM »

Just because I am curious, what MOCO dealership is yours?   :nixweiss:
Sadunbar, thanks for the question, but I would really rather just be known as a fellow enthusiast as I've been that alot longer than I've been a Harley dealer.  I only mentioned it to try and bring a measure of credibility to my rambling.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2008, 07:17:50 PM »

Sadunbar, thanks for the question, but I would really rather just be known as a fellow enthusiast as I've been that alot longer than I've been a Harley dealer.  I only mentioned it to try and bring a measure of credibility to my rambling.

No problem...like I said....just curious...   :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2008, 07:20:51 PM »

As the word of the automobile industry collapsing restructuring becomes apparent, many auto dealers are going to close. As of last week, 600 dealerships nationwide have closed. Rjobs & I have discussed this in another thread. Harley now has ~700+ dealerships in the US. It makes one wonder what the saturation point is? How many dealers are too many? Miker has purchased 4 motorcycles in the last 8 years and had only gone back to one. Why? In his market there are at least eight dealers within a 75 mile radius. I on the other hand have to travel 55 miles to the closest one.  Whit the credit "crunch" being as tight as it is, I foresee more consolidation.
I thought my 30/45 miles to get to the two closest dealers to me was bad, and I live in the largest (in population) of both the city's where the dealers are located. :confused5:

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2008, 07:25:27 PM »

I thought my 30/45 miles to get to the two closest dealers to me was bad, and I live in the largest (in population) of both the city's where the dealers are located. :confused5:

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There are six dealerships with 50 miles of me.... and probably 20 more (Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago area dealers) within 100 miles...  No lack of choices....
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2008, 07:37:04 PM »


First let me say,

Harley56 I appreciate your response!
***************************************

As far as location, mine is 3 miles away.
If it was 103 miles I would pass the other 10 that would be closer, to get to "mine".
I am loyal to them because they are loyal to me, even when the economy sucks.

 :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2008, 08:10:08 PM »

What I'm afraid of is that with the economy going the way it is, our bikes are going to lose about half their value over the next 6 month - year. What do you all think??
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2008, 08:13:04 PM »

What I'm afraid of is that with the economy going the way it is, our bikes are going to lose about half their value over the next 6 month - year. What do you all think??

Naw....not likely... 

Myself, I bought mine to ride and never really consider its value vs. the economy...  Just really doesn't matter.  It won't with the next one  - or the one after that either...
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2008, 08:17:40 PM »

I was mainly concerned about the people that have financed a 30-40 thousand dollar bike that won't sell for 25000. But you're right I bought mine to ride also, not for what it's worth. Thanks for setting my priorities back straight.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2008, 08:32:13 PM »

What I'm afraid of is that with the economy going the way it is, our bikes are going to lose about half their value over the next 6 month - year. What do you all think??
  I purchased all my bikes to ride could care less about value as i don,t plan on selling--AK  Get your value out of the product on the road, solo or with friends, stress relief, and life time experences..what ever you get after that in selling is a bonus--AK
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sadunbar

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2008, 08:33:52 PM »

  I purchased all my bikes to ride could care less about value as i don,t plan on selling--AK  Get your value out of the product on the road, solo or with friends, stress relief, and life time experences..what ever you get after that in selling is a bonus--AK

exactly right....
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2008, 08:37:01 PM »

Harley56--Try to make some of are nor-cal ride... We can keep your biz private those who have been on the site for along time remember  the nor-cal folk didn,t give up V-Girl------AK
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2008, 09:04:52 PM »

We have 6 dealers in my area.  I am sure two of them will have a hard time.  They have poor service depts, and un friendly staffs, and owners are never around.  We have two that will struggle but should make it.

Our newest dealer opend in late 2004.  I bet they make it.  Owner is very active in the dealership, there most the time.  He is also a rider, and an avid one at that.  He moves more bikes than any one in the state now.  He sells at or below MSRP.  All the the staff is very friendly.  Service dept is very good.

He also has a huge out door pavilon on site, with concerts, food and beer on week ends.  Beer is 2 a can.  Food is good an reasonable.  Concerts are free unless it is a big name band.  He keeps a small t-shirt, hat and such stand open on all friday and saturday night concerts until mid night.  These events get big with 2000 or more the norm for a Saturday night concert.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2008, 09:09:12 PM »

Sadunbar, thanks for the question, but I would really rather just be known as a fellow enthusiast as I've been that alot longer than I've been a Harley dealer.  I only mentioned it to try and bring a measure of credibility to my rambling.
Kudos for you. :2vrolijk_21: I'm lucky to have a dealer like that local to me too.

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2008, 09:11:43 PM »

We have 6 dealers in my area.  I am sure two of them will have a hard time.  They have poor service depts, and un friendly staffs, and owners are never around.  We have two that will struggle but should make it.

Our newest dealer opend in late 2004.  I bet they make it.  Owner is very active in the dealership, there most the time.  He is also a rider, and an avid one at that.  He moves more bikes than any one in the state now.  He sells at or below MSRP.  All the the staff is very friendly.  Service dept is very good.

He also has a huge out door pavilon on site, with concerts, food and beer on week ends.  Beer is 2 a can.  Food is good an reasonable.  Concerts are free unless it is a big name band.  He keeps a small t-shirt, hat and such stand open on all friday and saturday night concerts until mid night.  These events get big with 2000 or more the norm for a Saturday night concert.

Where is it? I'd like to put it on my 'must see' dealer list.

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2008, 11:33:39 PM »

As soon as I opened this thread, earlier.....I had a fire to put out, here at work.  Looks like it got posted, anyway.  Just an FYI.....at times I'll have this site open....maybe three or four threads at a time and still have multiple windows of work related stuff that I'm working on and this is buried in the back.

On to the topic........not making a judgement but I do find it interesting that Mike mentions his employees working on customers bikes, delivering special order parts, etc. on their time and at their expense.  Aside from that being in violation of labor laws, this dealership was known for marking their bikes way up (until very recently) and getting it.  Yet we have other dealerships here in Nor Cal that have sold at MSRP for years and they're holding their own.  

We'll never get the opportunity, but it would be very interesting to hear the other side of this story.   :nixweiss:


 Aside from that being in violation of labor laws, this dealership was known for marking their bikes way up (until very recently) and getting it.  Yet we have other dealerships here in Nor Cal that have sold at MSRP for years and they're holding their own. 

Exactly my sentiments in my post, ATTITUDE.....And like Hub said, passion for HD's...That will win every time>>>>>Greg 
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2008, 01:00:19 AM »

Where is it? I'd like to put it on my 'must see' dealer list.

It is in Marryville TN.  Smoky Mountain is it's name.  The have a T-shirt store in Gatlinburg and a smaller store with bikes in Seivierville.  But the one to see is the big one in Marryville.  Use to be a Lowes.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2008, 01:08:11 AM »

Just because I am curious, what MOCO dealership is yours?   :nixweiss:

"We happen to be in the top 10% in customer satisfaction per Harley-Davidson and take great pride in customer relationships, so please don't lecture me on service and the shop - again I agree!  That is primary to doing things the right way"

Well we can rule out Bob Drons obviously.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2008, 03:18:18 AM »

"We happen to be in the top 10% in customer satisfaction per Harley-Davidson and take great pride in customer relationships, so please don't lecture me on service and the shop - again I agree!  That is primary to doing things the right way"

Well we can rule out Bob Drons obviously.

Thanks for the best laugh of my day - I don't think Bob spends much time on here.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2008, 05:02:48 AM »

Up here where I live in Ontario up until 5 years ago the local HD was owned by the same people for 20 years. They had an old , out of date building but did well. HD forced them into building the fancy dealership in typical Harley fashion.  After two years in the new building the MoCo told them it wasn't big enough and wanted them to construct a new building right on the main hyway. They said no & decided to sell to a trucking firm. Did very well in the sale. Said trucking company lasted one year. It has since been taken over by a large dealer ship who plans to follow through with HD's plans for a mega store. THE MUFFMAN
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2008, 07:34:18 AM »

Up here where I live in Ontario up until 5 years ago the local HD was owned by the same people for 20 years. They had an old , out of date building but did well. HD forced them into building the fancy dealership in typical Harley fashion.  After two years in the new building the MoCo told them it wasn't big enough and wanted them to construct a new building right on the main hyway. They said no & decided to sell to a trucking firm. Did very well in the sale. Said trucking company lasted one year. It has since been taken over by a large dealer ship who plans to follow through with HD's plans for a mega store. THE MUFFMAN

This once again sounds like a case of ego making sound business decisions. One of the things I have learned in business is that bigger glitz and glamor are not always the most profitable.

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2008, 08:36:44 PM »

This once again sounds like a case of ego making sound business decisions. One of the things I have learned in business is that bigger glitz and glamor are not always the most profitable.

I agree.  Image pays, but some buyers are funny about how far you go with that.  Most folks like to deal with successful people, but one can flaunt too much, and turn some buyers off.  I'm not talking about Doctors and Lawyers, I'm talking about Ol' Redneck Country Boys.  I've seen it happen time and time again.  Once they see that, they're gone, and they're gone forever.  Most of those folks buy from my Dealership, and hook their Wagon to a "Star."  Western Star, that is.  ;) Many people have asked me why I don't drive an Escalade or a Navigator, as opposed to my Denali.  In my view, that would send the message I'm making too much money.  Some may argue that, but it's true in the business I'm in.  Truckers, and people in the Trucking Business in my area, are very clannish people.  A large portion of my Customer base ride Harleys.  They're always asking me why I don't buy a New SEUC, or SERG.  I tell 'em I can't afford it.  You can't tell me that a person that has bought $2,000,000.00 worth of Trucks from me, and rides an '04SEEG, and sees me ride up on a Brand New '09 SERG, doesn't wonder how much of that 2 Million went for my New Motorsickle.  That's the way I have operated for years, and ain't done too bad, all things considered, and that's the way I will continue to operate.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD       
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2008, 05:02:48 AM »

This once again sounds like a case of ego making sound business decisions. One of the things I have learned in business is that bigger glitz and glamor are not always the most profitable.

Another little tidbit regarding glitz and glamour. I have been in business many years and through a lot of hard work and timely investments have done reasonably well.  We used to have our company Christmas party at a hall every year. ONE year I had it at my newly constructed house, not to show off but basically to thank some of my men who helped work on it after hours, weekends and such. Not a week went by after the party that at least 10 people came into my office and asked for a Very substancial raise citing if I can afford that house you can afford to pay me more. It's funny that all the guys that asked for the raise were not the ones who helped on the house.  THE MUFFMAN
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2008, 07:58:54 PM »

Thanks for the response Hubbard - I respect your beg to differ and I'm not a sir, but I appreciate the formality :)  First off, I am in complete agreement with your words and the lesson that can be learned from what happened to Santa Cruz.  I'm not sure if you're calling me out, or not, but I too happen to be a harley dealer also and have some knowledge of what is takes to be profitable these days, at least here in California.  I do not know your mark-up on parts.  Harley's margin on accessories and motorclothes is more along the lines of 35%.  When you're turning items twice a year, that will not substantially cover the overhead.  I agree, harley msrp allows for a fair profit margin and I believe premium pricing has no place at a harley dealership.  The reality is motorcycle sales accounts for approximately 65%+ of a dealer's revenues.  There are not many, if any, dealers in California who can quite selling motorcycles for a profit and remain profitable regardless of what your friend is able to do with his dealership.  I invite you to lose one-half of 65% of your revenues and see how well your bottom line looks. We happen to be in the top 10% in customer satisfaction per Harley-Davidson and take great pride in customer relationships, so please don't lecture me on service and the shop - again I agree!  That is primary to doing things the right way, but service, parts, accessories and motorclothes revenues cannot support the business in our wonderful area - period!
I have done some research regarding HD dealerships and What Harley56 is saying is completely consistant with what I have learned.
 HD dealerships do not follow the business models that most auto dealerships subscribe to. (the back end makes the money, not the front)
Their money is earned through Motorcycle sales. (the front end makes the money)
Clothes accessories and parts go along way to making profit, but the real issue is that Motorcycle sales pays the rent, overhead and payroll.
A drop in cycle sales impacts the dealer severely. Think about it 1 bike can bring in $4000.00 profit dollars and it would take over $11000.00 in acc (and more like $20000.00) to make the same profit dollars. look at the labor cost difference in the 2.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2008, 10:42:15 PM »

I agree.  Image pays, but some buyers are funny about how far you go with that.  Most folks like to deal with successful people, but one can flaunt too much, and turn some buyers off.  I'm not talking about Doctors and Lawyers, I'm talking about Ol' Redneck Country Boys.  I've seen it happen time and time again.  Once they see that, they're gone, and they're gone forever.  Most of those folks buy from my Dealership, and hook their Wagon to a "Star."  Western Star, that is.  ;) Many people have asked me why I don't drive an Escalade or a Navigator, as opposed to my Denali.  In my view, that would send the message I'm making too much money.  Some may argue that, but it's true in the business I'm in.  Truckers, and people in the Trucking Business in my area, are very clannish people.  A large portion of my Customer base ride Harleys.  They're always asking me why I don't buy a New SEUC, or SERG.  I tell 'em I can't afford it.  You can't tell me that a person that has bought $2,000,000.00 worth of Trucks from me, and rides an '04SEEG, and sees me ride up on a Brand New '09 SERG, doesn't wonder how much of that 2 Million went for my New Motorsickle.  That's the way I have operated for years, and ain't done too bad, all things considered, and that's the way I will continue to operate.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD       

Um 'er Carl,

  Some us may recall you have one passion imparticular outside of trucks and motorsikles then can run up a mighty hefty tab in the blink of an eye.   ;)
 
  No not "women" silly  ::)  I'm refering to the "double duece".  :2vrolijk_21:

  Just checked the standing's.....congratulations looks like another year of growth and success.  :drink:

Fatboy

 

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2008, 01:18:43 AM »

Where is it? I'd like to put it on my 'must see' dealer list.

Try Faultline H-D in Fremont, CA...........unless it's coincidence that they have the same customer satisfaction ratings, etc. this is the one. If you want to study how to turn a dealership around, this is a classic case. They get it.

Joe
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2008, 06:11:38 AM »

We have 6 dealers in my area.  I am sure two of them will have a hard time.  They have poor service depts, and un friendly staffs, and owners are never around.  We have two that will struggle but should make it.

Our newest dealer opend in late 2004.  I bet they make it.  Owner is very active in the dealership, there most the time.  He is also a rider, and an avid one at that.  He moves more bikes than any one in the state now.  He sells at or below MSRP.  All the the staff is very friendly.  Service dept is very good.

He also has a huge out door pavilon on site, with concerts, food and beer on week ends.  Beer is 2 a can.  Food is good an reasonable.  Concerts are free unless it is a big name band.  He keeps a small t-shirt, hat and such stand open on all friday and saturday night concerts until mid night.  These events get big with 2000 or more the norm for a Saturday night concert.

I was just there 2 months ago. GREAT DEALERSHIP!!!!!! One of the best I have ever visited.

Be Safe

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2008, 09:15:31 AM »

Try Faultline H-D in Fremont, CA...........unless it's coincidence that they have the same customer satisfaction ratings, etc. this is the one. If you want to study how to turn a dealership around, this is a classic case. They get it.

Joe

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2008, 01:49:51 PM »

I have done some research regarding HD dealerships and What Harley56 is saying is completely consistant with what I have learned.
 HD dealerships do not follow the business models that most auto dealerships subscribe to. (the back end makes the money, not the front)
Their money is earned through Motorcycle sales. (the front end makes the money)
Clothes accessories and parts go along way to making profit, but the real issue is that Motorcycle sales pays the rent, overhead and payroll.
A drop in cycle sales impacts the dealer severely. Think about it 1 bike can bring in $4000.00 profit dollars and it would take over $11000.00 in acc (and more like $20000.00) to make the same profit dollars. look at the labor cost difference in the 2.


This is an interesting thought.  And with this in mind, you may see many dealers go out of business unless they drastically change their business model.  With the production numbers where they are now, this model will no longer work.  Dealers are going to have to start being "auto dealers".  I just bought a bike for 4K under msrp.  I don't know if they made any money or not.  I am sure they did, but not much.  Mostly I am sure they were wanting this high $$ bike off their floor plan.

The local dealer here changed owners and the new owners are very aggressive on having tons of bikes in stock and selling on volume.  The landscape has changed, and only the business savvy will survive.  I think this can only be good for us as owners and maintainers of bikes.  We should start seeing some "back end" specials on accessories, labor, clothes etc...  These guys that have a ton of money in a $10,000,000 building will have to sell some serious volume to make it up. 
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2008, 02:23:59 PM »

In light of the current economy, many business's are faced with modifying their business model to make it work with today's climate.

The key word is "modify", They cannot make service and parts make up for all revenues of lost sales.

They (dealers) will be more motivated with cash right now for that is the name of the game (short term).

It does not matter how much money (profit) you make if cash cannot be generated to meet requirements.

Stronger Dealers may not need to take drastic action if their cash situation is stable, but trimming their payroll may be necessary.

Cash is king now more than ever and do not get me wrong, profits are important for long term stability and values may be had especially from cash strapped dealers.

I do not believe that Harley Dealers can survive with their present overhead if sales tank. The back end is under a lot of pressure with discounting parts, independent servicer, back yard mechanics and self servicing owners.

How many of us will work on our own bikes, but never consider doing it on our own cars?

The biggest reason I think is that most cycles are not necessary transportation and having down time on a cycle is superfluous to the operation.

The Model would have to change back to the days that walking into a Harley dealership was like walking into a garage bay.

The mechanic was the sales person and often had conversation while he repaired bikes.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2008, 10:27:54 PM »

This is an interesting thought.  And with this in mind, you may see many dealers go out of business unless they drastically change their business model.  With the production numbers where they are now, this model will no longer work.  Dealers are going to have to start being "auto dealers".  I just bought a bike for 4K under msrp.  I don't know if they made any money or not.  I am sure they did, but not much.  Mostly I am sure they were wanting this high $$ bike off their floor plan.

The local dealer here changed owners and the new owners are very aggressive on having tons of bikes in stock and selling on volume.  The landscape has changed, and only the business savvy will survive.  I think this can only be good for us as owners and maintainers of bikes.  We should start seeing some "back end" specials on accessories, labor, clothes etc...  These guys that have a ton of money in a $10,000,000 building will have to sell some serious volume to make it up. 

This is the exact same conversation that Rjob & I were having about automobile dealerships in another thread. Over 600 auto dealers have gone out of business so far this year. You are right that the fittest will survive. However, the second highlighted line may not be accurate. As more of the weaker dealers go out, the prices are going to increase. The fewer dealers, the less competition. Someone has to pay for those $10M buildings. Don't know if this applies outside of the auto business? 

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2008, 10:55:24 PM »

This is the exact same conversation that Rjob & I were having about automobile dealerships in another thread. Over 600 auto dealers have gone out of business so far this year. You are right that the fittest will survive. However, the second highlighted line may not be accurate. As more of the weaker dealers go out, the prices are going to increase. The fewer dealers, the less competition. Someone has to pay for those $10M buildings. Don't know if this applies outside of the auto business? 
Like many businesses their business model is/will be challenged. Only HD is not like any business. It will be an interesting read.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2008, 06:43:35 PM »

This is an interesting thought.  And with this in mind, you may see many dealers go out of business unless they drastically change their business model.  With the production numbers where they are now, this model will no longer work.  Dealers are going to have to start being "auto dealers".   I just bought a bike for 4K under msrp.  I don't know if they made any money or not.  I am sure they did, but not much.  Mostly I am sure they were wanting this high $$ bike off their floor plan.

The local dealer here changed owners and the new owners are very aggressive on having tons of bikes in stock and selling on volume.  The landscape has changed, and only the business savvy will survive.  I think this can only be good for us as owners and maintainers of bikes.  We should start seeing some "back end" specials on accessories, labor, clothes etc...  These guys that have a ton of money in a $10,000,000 building will have to sell some serious volume to make it up. 

That's the problem around here, the auto dealers are buying the HD dealerships.  I know what you meant about dealing under MSRP, but the car dealers sell a lot more cars and can therefore afford to let em go 500 over invoice.  They also do not expect to see you back for service.  The HD dealers need you to add on stuff and do your $500 oil changes.  It's a different animal.  Back when very few dealers sold at MSRP, they would not sell to anyone not local because they needed your return business. 
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #80 on: November 21, 2008, 03:33:13 PM »

All very interesting reads, but I still stick to my guns on operating a retail business, whether it be commercial or recreation, or luxury, referring to cars, Trucks, and Motorsickles.  What most have overlooked is back-end profits.  Namely, finance reserve.  Some HD Dealers around our immediate area have absolutely robbed people in that area.  Don't get me wrong, profit is not a dirty word to me, but I don't believe in robbing people.  Case in point, I know a person that traded up from a Soft-Tail Custom to a Road King, to an Ultra Classic over about a 30 month period.  He then wanted to trade up for a SEUC.  The pay-off on the '08 Ultra was $37,000.00!  His interest rate was 21.9%!  I know some folks don't care about anything but the payment, but JC, I think this guy was taken advantage of in the heat of the moment.  My HD Dealer friend told him he didn't want to insult him, but he needed $22,000.00 cash, to trade!  Although there is no cap on interest in WV, (on a Commercial Vehicle, that is), that's just plain hi-way robbery.  I've even heard of some HD Dealers financing New Motorsickles for 96 months!  You just can't keep raping people like that, and stay in business forever.  Even though I could charge whatever I wanted in the way of interest, I have never bumped my buy-rate more than 2%, and sometimes I have passed the buy-rate right on to Customers, if that's what it took to close the deal.  Why?  Because I know they are going to come back for parts, service, and more Trucks.  You guys may be right, but I just can't seem to accept the great gulf fixed between the 2 Business models.  But, WTH?  I'll stick to what I know.  ;) Later--HUBBARD           
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #82 on: November 21, 2008, 05:25:11 PM »

Some interesting thoughts posted here...
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2008, 07:23:22 PM »

All very interesting reads, but I still stick to my guns on operating a retail business, whether it be commercial or recreation, or luxury, referring to cars, Trucks, and Motorsickles.  What most have overlooked is back-end profits.  Namely, finance reserve.  Some HD Dealers around our immediate area have absolutely robbed people in that area.  Don't get me wrong, profit is not a dirty word to me, but I don't believe in robbing people.  Case in point, I know a person that traded up from a Soft-Tail Custom to a Road King, to an Ultra Classic over about a 30 month period.  He then wanted to trade up for a SEUC.  The pay-off on the '08 Ultra was $37,000.00!  His interest rate was 21.9%!  I know some folks don't care about anything but the payment, but JC, I think this guy was taken advantage of in the heat of the moment.  My HD Dealer friend told him he didn't want to insult him, but he needed $22,000.00 cash, to trade!  Although there is no cap on interest in WV, (on a Commercial Vehicle, that is), that's just plain hi-way robbery.  I've even heard of some HD Dealers financing New Motorsickles for 96 months!  You just can't keep raping people like that, and stay in business forever.  Even though I could charge whatever I wanted in the way of interest, I have never bumped my buy-rate more than 2%, and sometimes I have passed the buy-rate right on to Customers, if that's what it took to close the deal.  Why?  Because I know they are going to come back for parts, service, and more Trucks.  You guys may be right, but I just can't seem to accept the great gulf fixed between the 2 Business models.  But, WTH?  I'll stick to what I know.  ;) Later--HUBBARD           
Hubbard I might have to disagree with on this one.
I hate to disagree with a fellow West Virginian since I was born in Princeton and escaped (only kidding)
but the example you presented is not far off the numbers I ran despite not including interest.
Buy a Softtail Custom for what 16K and keep it a year and trade it in for 10K (still owe 6K upside down) put 6K debt on new RK that cost 19K (now owes 25K) trades that in on Ultra that costs 21k and gets 13k for trade. Now owes 33K on a ultra that really costs 21K.
trade that in ? how? Ultra used worth 16K?  that does'nt begin to cover taxes, tags, or interest. Pretty big hole this fella dug. 
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #84 on: November 22, 2008, 10:17:50 AM »

Hubbard I might have to disagree with on this one.
I hate to disagree with a fellow West Virginian since I was born in Princeton and escaped (only kidding)
but the example you presented is not far off the numbers I ran despite not including interest.
Buy a Softtail Custom for what 16K and keep it a year and trade it in for 10K (still owe 6K upside down) put 6K debt on new RK that cost 19K (now owes 25K) trades that in on Ultra that costs 21k and gets 13k for trade. Now owes 33K on a ultra that really costs 21K.
trade that in ? how? Ultra used worth 16K?  that does'nt begin to cover taxes, tags, or interest. Pretty big hole this fella dug. 


We can disagree there, 'Bro, and not be disagreeable.  I would guess situations such as this begat GAP insurance, for purposes of accidents or theft.  Just don't make sense to me.  Hell, the whole World is upside down.  When the twig is bent, so grows the Tree.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2008, 07:28:17 PM »

All very interesting reads, but I still stick to my guns on operating a retail business, whether it be commercial or recreation, or luxury, referring to cars, Trucks, and Motorsickles.  What most have overlooked is back-end profits.  Namely, finance reserve.  Some HD Dealers around our immediate area have absolutely robbed people in that area.  Don't get me wrong, profit is not a dirty word to me, but I don't believe in robbing people.  Case in point, I know a person that traded up from a Soft-Tail Custom to a Road King, to an Ultra Classic over about a 30 month period.  He then wanted to trade up for a SEUC.  The pay-off on the '08 Ultra was $37,000.00!  His interest rate was 21.9%!  I know some folks don't care about anything but the payment, but JC, I think this guy was taken advantage of in the heat of the moment.  My HD Dealer friend told him he didn't want to insult him, but he needed $22,000.00 cash, to trade!  Although there is no cap on interest in WV, (on a Commercial Vehicle, that is), that's just plain hi-way robbery.  I've even heard of some HD Dealers financing New Motorsickles for 96 months!  You just can't keep raping people like that, and stay in business forever.  Even though I could charge whatever I wanted in the way of interest, I have never bumped my buy-rate more than 2%, and sometimes I have passed the buy-rate right on to Customers, if that's what it took to close the deal.  Why?  Because I know they are going to come back for parts, service, and more Trucks.  You guys may be right, but I just can't seem to accept the great gulf fixed between the 2 Business models.  But, WTH?  I'll stick to what I know.  ;) Later--HUBBARD           

HUBBARD, here in California 21.9% is not possible unless buyer's credit can barely get them a loan and Harley Credit will take their high risk for a high return. That loan exists and rate is about 22%, dealer makes $150, no bump in the buy-rate.  You say you bump your buy-rate by 2%, that's a pretty common number, we're capped at 3% and often times sales happen at buy-rate - to quote you - "If that's what it took to close the deal".  I believe 96 month financing is out there although harley credit stops at 84 months, but a new CVO at msrp runs as much as $40K with tax and license out here, so 10% down and 7.99% financing is $725/mo.  What's wrong with 96 months for "motorsickles", how long a term are you able to get for your customers?  Like your area, we have a dealer, that takes advantage of customers, but not the norm and shame on them.  None of your competition does that?  I agree there is not "The great gulf fixed between the 2 Business models" on vehicle sales.  So, in that respect, I'm not sure of your point.  I do believe you do not know the revenue and margins that exist in the rest of the dealership, nor the total overhead (trying paying $2.00 sq.ft. for rent), nor do I claim to have any knowledge of yours.  Take care!
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #86 on: November 23, 2008, 12:14:54 AM »

HUBBARD, here in California 21.9% is not possible unless buyer's credit can barely get them a loan and Harley Credit will take their high risk for a high return. That loan exists and rate is about 22%, dealer makes $150, no bump in the buy-rate.  You say you bump your buy-rate by 2%, that's a pretty common number, we're capped at 3% and often times sales happen at buy-rate - to quote you - "If that's what it took to close the deal".  I believe 96 month financing is out there although harley credit stops at 84 months, but a new CVO at msrp runs as much as $40K with tax and license out here, so 10% down and 7.99% financing is $725/mo.  What's wrong with 96 months for "motorsickles", how long a term are you able to get for your customers?  Like your area, we have a dealer, that takes advantage of customers, but not the norm and shame on them.  None of your competition does that?  I agree there is not "The great gulf fixed between the 2 Business models" on vehicle sales.  So, in that respect, I'm not sure of your point.  I do believe you do not know the revenue and margins that exist in the rest of the dealership, nor the total overhead (trying paying $2.00 sq.ft. for rent), nor do I claim to have any knowledge of yours.  Take care!


I don't know the West Coast real estate market but I find it hard to believe that any showroom / warehouse can go for $2/sf. I'm sure taxes have to be 6-8 % at least on leased property.

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #87 on: November 23, 2008, 03:07:58 AM »


I don't know the West Coast real estate market but I find it hard to believe that any showroom / warehouse can go for $2/sf. I'm sure taxes have to be 6-8 % at least on leased property.

I can understand your disbelief, it's not cheap out here, that is a real number and there is no distinguishing between showroom and warehouse.  Taxes are less than 6-8%, but still six figures annually.  Takes $200-275 sq.ft. to build in our market.  Now you're 25,000 sq. ft. building is between $6 and $7million when it's all said and done. 
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 03:44:02 AM by harley56 »
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2008, 08:55:56 AM »

I can understand your disbelief, it's not cheap out here, that is a real number and there is no distinguishing between showroom and warehouse.  Taxes are less than 6-8%, but still six figures annually.  Takes $200-275 sq.ft. to build in our market.  Now you're 25,000 sq. ft. building is between $6 and $7million when it's all said and done. 

I don't see how anyone survives out there with that kind of pricing structure.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #89 on: November 23, 2008, 09:08:10 AM »

I can understand your disbelief, it's not cheap out here, that is a real number and there is no distinguishing between showroom and warehouse.  Taxes are less than 6-8%, but still six figures annually.  Takes $200-275 sq.ft. to build in our market.  Now you're 25,000 sq. ft. building is between $6 and $7million when it's all said and done. 

Ok, I understand the $200-$270 construction cost and that is in-line with the South Florida market. However, most commercial buildings are leasing for anywhere from $10-$22 per sq.ft. triple net down south. On top of that there is a 6% sales tax applied to a lease. So your 25k s.f. @ $10 X 6% would be $22K a month. That's a lot of vehicles to sell. I just thought $2 per sq.ft. was cheap. If you've got that $6-$7 million to carry as a monthly nut, I could see where a business would find it hard to survive.

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2008, 04:22:40 PM »

Ok, I understand the $200-$270 construction cost and that is in-line with the South Florida market. However, most commercial buildings are leasing for anywhere from $10-$22 per sq.ft. triple net down south. On top of that there is a 6% sales tax applied to a lease. So your 25k s.f. @ $10 X 6% would be $22K a month. That's a lot of vehicles to sell. I just thought $2 per sq.ft. was cheap. If you've got that $6-$7 million to carry as a monthly nut, I could see where a business would find it hard to survive.

Looks like I was comparing my apples to your oranges - whoops!  My $2 sq.ft. is per month.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2008, 09:10:27 AM »

I was just there 2 months ago. GREAT DEALERSHIP!!!!!! One of the best I have ever visited.

Be Safe

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I feel truely lucky to have that one 62 miles from the house :2vrolijk_21:

So far they have treated me great with both bike purchaes, and also with service.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #92 on: December 02, 2008, 02:52:02 AM »

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2008, 10:00:21 AM »

Today's SJ Mercury News Business section article...

For Mike James, watching the failure of his Santa Cruz Harley-Davidson dealership was a little like watching a slow-motion car crash.

He knew months ago that the economy was in trouble. Motorcycle sales began to slide, and he could see a day when he wouldn't be able to cover his costs and make payments on the debt he took on to start and expand his business. In March, he closed a small branch location he'd opened in Watsonville.

He even sought out buyers, eventually finding one who was willing to take over the Santa Cruz dealership provided he and James could extract concessions from James' lenders.

Those concessions never materialized, and last month James closed his doors for good.

"I don't think you can fully anticipate how ugly it is unless you've witnessed it firsthand,'' says James, 47, who opened the dealership nearly 13 years ago. "I don't wish it on anybody.''

James doesn't mean ugly just for him. In fact, his story holds a larger truth: Often in cases like this, a community loses not only a business but a piece of itself.

"It's like a death in the family," says Keri Baughman, a regular customer and member of the Santa Cruz Harley Ownership Group. "We're pretty sad. We've shed some tears."

No question Harley customers are passionate. But the same sadness is likely to play out again and again as the nation spirals deeper into recession and other Mike Jameses find they can't make it. Bookstores, cafes, mom-and-pop shops will close, leaving voids in storefronts and hearts.

"I think Christmas for retailers is going to be devastating," James says.

James knows devastation. His sales dropped from 50 motorcycles a little over a year ago to 15 in October.

"It's consumer confidence," James says. "People are scared to death."

He is not making excuses. James says he was in charge. And he feels terrible when he thinks about the way the closing of his shop will ripple through Santa Cruz and beyond.

It starts with the 24 employees who were laid off when the store closed.

"What I had been suffering most from," James says, "was that I had these employees who right before the holidays were being put out of work."

And there are customers like Baughman and others who came from throughout California and beyond for camaraderie and to visit the small museum of Harley artifacts that James set up. Bikers would gather at the store at Seabright and Soquel avenues, sipping free coffee, swapping stories and planning road trips.

James kept them in touch with a blog and an e-mail newsletter that had 28,000 subscribers at the end. When he posted news of the closing, he received more than 700 e-mails. The Saturday after the store closed, bikers came to the parking lot to pay their final respects.

James says he counted about 350 bikers pull up over the course of the day. "It was almost like a herd of elephants coming back to mourn the dead," he says.

The ripples don't stop with laid-off employees and customers. James says he thinks about the crepe restaurant next door. His customers won't wander over anymore and order. He thinks about his landlords — two elderly women — who won't receive his rent check anymore. And he thinks about the city and his dealership's spot as one of the top 20 sales-tax generators in town.

James has turned over the dealership's assets to Harley-Davidson, which is his lead lender. He suspects the company and a secondary lender will come after him for the balance of his loans. Harley spokesman Bob Klein said the company does not comment on issues involving individual dealerships.

No, James is not sure how he'll pay his lenders. And his plans are hardly specific.

"I'm going to be out there with my employees," he says, "looking for a job."

The ripples continue.



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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #94 on: December 02, 2008, 10:19:22 AM »

It's an interesting read. Thanks for posting. It would appear the author would suggest the Mothership was NOT willing to negotiate to keep the doors open  :confused5: Where's Paul Harvey  :confused5: :huepfenjump3:
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #95 on: December 03, 2008, 11:14:11 AM »

The situation at the HD dealers are not good everywhere............I have been purchasing all the parts from Motor City Harley Davidson in Farmington Hills, MI for the last three years which gave me 20% discount an excellent service. I have created a good relationship with them diring these years. I sent an email to Tom (the guys have been dealing with) and I was wondering why he didn't answered me immediately so I sent a message to Ann (Parts Manager) and she answered this:

Tom- is laid off for 3 months.  Times are bad here.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #96 on: December 04, 2008, 08:31:33 AM »

 :( Central Harley Shawnee KS and Olathe Ks annmounced Jan 1 they will close the Shawnee Store in the past several months they have been laying off just about everybody except the family members. 
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #97 on: December 04, 2008, 10:46:05 AM »

looks like hd , gm and crystler are going under :o
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #98 on: December 04, 2008, 10:54:49 AM »

:( Central Harley Shawnee KS and Olathe Ks annmounced Jan 1 they will close the Shawnee Store in the past several months they have been laying off just about everybody except the family members. 

That's too bad.  I'd had good service at the parts counter at that store.  That something in the KC area might not survive isn't a great surprise though.  Five or six dealerships in the overall greater metro area always seemed a bit much.  Olathe and Shawnee are only 15 miles apart. 
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Economic ripples continue at Harley dealership
« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2008, 11:00:13 AM »

SAN JOSE, Calif., Dec 12, 2008


For Mike James, watching the failure of his Santa Cruz Harley-Davidson dealership was a little like watching a slow-motion car crash. 
He knew months ago that the economy was in trouble. Motorcycle sales began to slide, and he could see a day when he wouldn't be able to cover his costs and make payments on the debt he took on to start and expand his business. In March, he closed a small branch location.

He even sought out buyers, eventually finding one who was willing to take over the Santa Cruz, Calif., dealership provided the buyer and James could extract concessions from James' lenders.

Those concessions never materialized, and last month James closed his doors for good.

"I don't think you can fully anticipate how ugly it is unless you've witnessed it firsthand," says James, 47, who opened the dealership nearly 13 years ago. "I don't wish it on anybody."

James doesn't mean ugly just for him. In fact, his story holds a larger truth: Often in cases like this, a community loses not only a business but a piece of itself.

"It's like a death in the family," says Keri Baughman, a regular customer and member of the Santa Cruz Harley Ownership Group. "We're pretty sad. We've shed some tears."

No question Harley customers are passionate. But the same sadness is likely to play out again and again as the nation spirals deeper into recession and other Mike Jameses find they can't make it. Bookstores, cafes, mom-and-pop shops will close, leaving voids in storefronts and hearts.

"I think Christmas for retailers is going to be devastating," James says.

James knows devastation. His sales dropped from 50 motorcycles a little over a year ago to 15 in October.

"It's consumer confidence," James says. "People are scared to death."

He is not making excuses. James says he was in charge. And he feels terrible when he thinks about the way the closing of his shop will ripple through Santa Cruz and beyond.

It starts with the 24 employees who were laid off when the store closed.

"What I had been suffering most from," James says, "was that I had these employees who right before the holidays were being put out of work."

And there are customers like Baughman and others who came from throughout California and beyond for camaraderie and to visit the small museum of Harley artifacts that James set up. Bikers would gather at the store, sipping free coffee, swapping stories and planning road trips.

James kept them in touch with a blog and an e-mail newsletter that had 28,000 subscribers at the end. When he posted news of the closing, he received more than 700 e-mails. The Saturday after the store closed, bikers came to the parking lot to pay their final respects.

James says he counted about 350 bikers pull up over the course of the day. "It was almost like a herd of elephants coming back to mourn the dead," he says.

The ripples don't stop with laid-off employees and customers. James says he thinks about the crepe restaurant next door. His customers won't wander over anymore and order. He thinks about his landlords - two elderly women - who won't receive his rent check anymore. And he thinks about the city and his dealership's spot as one of the top 20 sales-tax generators in town.

James has turned over the dealership's assets to Harley-Davidson, which is his lead lender. He suspects the company and a secondary lender will come after him for the balance of his loans. Harley spokesman Bob Klein said the company does not comment on issues involving individual dealerships.

No, James is not sure how he'll pay his lenders. And his plans are hardly specific.

"I'm going to be out there with my employees," he says, "looking for a job."

---

(c) 2008, San Jose Mercury News (San Jose, Calif.).

Visit MercuryNews.com, the World Wide Web site of the Mercury News, at http://www.mercurynews.com.

Distributed by McClatchy-Tribune Information Services.

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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #100 on: December 12, 2008, 11:29:23 AM »

It starts with the 24 employees who were laid off when the store closed.

"What I had been suffering most from," James says, "was that I had these employees who right before the holidays were being put out of work."


I find this interesting.  I was told that the employees weren't told until that morning...."we're closing, you can come tomorrow to pick up your tools".  Why wouldn't he give them advance notice? 

And why not give the customers advance notice?  I know a member of this forum who gave them money on parts ordered just a couple days before he closed the doors. 

I'm not feeling any compassion for the guy but I sure do for his emplyees and customers.
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Re: santa cruz harley CLOSE DOORS
« Reply #101 on: January 19, 2009, 01:01:01 PM »

Sad times indeed, and alot of relevant points, but the way things are stacking up, everyone is going to feel this big pinch. I found my 09 fxdfse up in SF, and had HOT swap bikes so I could try to keep the the $$ local. I'm a firm believer in support your local 'whatever'. And the thought of paying that kind of interest on 30k?! that's frikkin silly. Paid cash 4 mine, and will again 4 my next one.

Folks slam Employers for the 'lock-out' type shut downs, but having been thru similar experiences, the very worst comes out even in some of the best people when you take away their livelyhood and future. Sad, But a necessary precaution to protect whats left of his investment.

Unfortunately, when things turn this bad, survival dictates stabilize form the core out. Corporate first, then appendages. What good will it do us in 10 years if HD starts carries the heat from suffering dealers only to have that debt be what puts Corp. in the crapper? Sad the economy is going so far south, but in my humble mumblings,,, It started to seem like HD dealers were the new Starbucks. A dealer in Lathrop?!?! hmmm,,,  I truly believe Corp was too giddy from past sales to grow judiciously. Looks like they way overestimated the ability of all these dealers to sustain a sufficient share of aggregate (sales / service) income to thrive. HOT is even offering financing bikes on craigsList. Good idea, bad timing,,

Geez, 50% sale email flyer from my local dealer,,, not a bad omen I hope,,,,

Who knows, this just may change the face of HD dealerships as we know them.

God BLess the 'casualties' and here's hoping they find a way to cope.
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