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[NVTHIS]

It is being reported on the news and in our local newspaper that HD in York, PA is moving there operations to one of three states. My home state of KY. - IN. or TN. One site in KY is in Shelbyville about 20-30 minutes east of Louisville, where there's a lot of manufacturing type businesses. The news reported that it would be a Motorcycle manufacturing facility (not sure what model) and parts distribution center. Officials from HD has visited the KY site at least 3 times and said it would employee around 100 workers. Man thats what we need here is JOBS. Come on HD we welcome you with open arms. Does anyone know why they want to leave PA? is it wages? Union? Who knows.

Chris  

[Gone Fishin']

Actually the York facility has three production areas

- the Touring factory, quite old, no a/c
- the little CVO facility, which is being phased out, as we learned
- the quite modern Softail factory, which is actually Harley's newest plant (2003, I believe)

In my mind a factory can be moved. In essence it is a big hall, and anything in there can be removed and installed elsewhere in another big hall. Moving the know-how of the workers and managers is much harder to do. And specifically Harley, with their high grade of production depth (they manufacture quite a lot themselves, instead of buying each part from a just-in-time supplier) is depending very much on quality workmanship. Moving the entire production of Touring & Softail bikes would certainly cause issues with production to be felt for six to nine months ongoing.

I personally believe (at least for now) that the Moco has no plans to move the factory away from York. I think the high degree of publicity (how many times have with read about this in the last six to eight weeks?) speaks for a strong case of signaling. What they are probably trying to do is to make the people in York believe, that a move is in the works, while they barter for concession from unions, local authorities and the likes.

Just an analysis. I may be wrong.

Ride safely,
Louis

[RedDevil]

I doubt that they would move the York assembly line either, plus if they are saying that the Kentucky plant would employ about 100 people, that's not even a 1/4 of the workforce that's at York.  There's no way that a new plant in Ken with that few of employees could replace the York facility.  Maybe they're going to move their fabricating portion (tanks, fenders, etc.) out of the assembly building and move it to Kentucky.   

[CVOStreetglide]

Some random thoughts......

I think that the Harley Factory "Footprint" is too large now that we are starting to see a peak in sales. The idea here is to try and consolidate functions into a new state-of-the-art facility in a geographically strategic location. Remember the HD test track in Talladega too.........

My guess is that we may see the HD Museum and old Factory turned into tourist destinations while the future production and manufacturing move to a more efficient environment.

Many of the long term employees (intellectual capitol) will or are retiring. Those that don't may move on to a new environment with the right incentives--$$$$ and relo packages--etc.

In todays world, why are the motors made in Milwaukee and bikes assembled in York, PA and Kansas City?? Transportation is a very large and growing cost component that is passed on to the customers (us).

When I was searching for my 2010 CVO Street Glide I would always ask the General Mangers how business was and what their were thoughts about the future. To a person (12-15 dealers all over the east coast-north and south) they felt that The Motor Company was going to:

• Reduce their size quickly both physical plant and employees.
  Reduce the total number of dealerships worldwide--profitable or not.
  Reduce the number of bikes produced and return customers (us) to the "put your name on the list" and wait era.

Of course, the used bike market will benefit from this and selling and trade prices should get much better.

So, state-of-the-art supply chain management technology and consistently updated customer profile demographics will help to determine where they end up. Of course there will have to be the usual financial and tax concessions from the lucky state that wins.

Since many of us here have just bought new bikes we'll be happy to watch how it evolves over the next few years.   

[Gone Fishin']

@cvostreetglide

I beg to differ. There is no way the Moco is going to shrink beyond immediate economic needs. That would completely destroy any profitability because of very expensive unit cost in procurement, production, and distribution. And you are plain wrong. when it comes to transportation cost. Prices are almost at an historical low. It costs less than 2$ to bring a refrigerator from China into the U.S.

Ride safely,
Louis

[CVOStreetglide]

@

I beg to differ. There is no way the Moco is going to shrink beyond immediate economic needs. That would completely destroy any profitability because of very expensive unit cost in procurement, production, and distribution. And you are plain wrong. when it comes to transportation cost. Prices are almost at an historical low. It costs less than 2$ to bring a refrigerator from China into the U.S.

Ride safely,
Louis

Louis

Differing opinions make interesting debates..... I wish we were closer geographically so we could do this over some beers and a steak or ??

In my assessment the driving force in the next few years is going to be improving the stock price and stockholder value in the coming years.

Harley is at risk of following the Detroit automobile dealers down the proverbial drain if they don't cut back on production and remove stale inventory in the retail stores.

It really doesn't matter if the bikes are floor planned or purchased by the dealers. In the end if the customers aren't buying everything that is being made there is going to be trouble.

The average age of the Harley rider is moving up and the average age of the Harley employee is moving down(younger and better formal education but not as much street sense). So employee mobility is not going to be an issue in the future --fewer employees, more automation-factory, design and last but not least sales.

I am a huge fan of Internet sales for HD.

If we could see the new bikes on line and order what we wanted right then and there and have it delivered to our home or the closest dealer in say 2-3 weeks I would be all for it. No sales person with an attitude or guessing where the bike is or how much just plain old sales.  Look at the supply chain productivity improvements that would occur, the improved cashflow and of course profits.

Look at the involvement in the service area over the last few years due largely to improved data gathering. Bikes are warrantied for 2 years and growing and oil services are being done at longer and longer timeframes. Tires have been increasedin diameter and the treads have been "redesigned for longer wear while the cost has come down somewhat.

Transportation Cost understand the Chinese $2 refrigerator shipping cost but Harley's volume discount shipping cost is now $380 passed on to us to ship from York, PA and it's going to get more expensive over time.  In fact you may already be aware of this but Harley outsourced their shipping function last year to save costs. I think they may still own some of the trailers but that tractors are the vendors.

My last thought on this is if you aren't convinced then please take a look at all of the Harley executives that are "hanging up their spurs", cashing out on their stock and stock options and leaving the business to the new and younger guys and ladies that in many cases have been hired from the"outside" and have no idea about Harley's.

Regards

Jerry

  

[jpparker]

Some random thoughts......

I think that the Harley Factory "Footprint" is too large now that we are starting to see a peak in sales. The idea here is to try and consolidate functions into a new state-of-the-art facility in a geographically strategic location. Remember the HD test track in Talladega too.........

My guess is that we may see the HD Museum and old Factory turned into tourist destinations while the future production and manufacturing move to a more efficient environment.

Many of the long term employees (intellectual capitol) will or are retiring. Those that don't may move on to a new environment with the right incentives--$$$$ and relo packages--etc.

In todays world, why are the motors made in Milwaukee and bikes assembled in York, PA and Kansas City?? Transportation is a very large and growing cost component that is passed on to the customers (us).

When I was searching for my 2010 CVO Street Glide I would always ask the General Mangers how business was and what their were thoughts about the future. To a person (12-15 dealers all over the east coast-north and south) they felt that The Motor Company was going to:

• Reduce their size quickly both physical plant and employees.
  Reduce the total number of dealerships worldwide--profitable or not.
  Reduce the number of bikes produced and return customers (us) to the "put your name on the list" and wait era.

 

I would tend to agree with this statement except for the fact that HD just borrowed $300 million from Warren Buffett in February and though some have said it's not repayable until 2014 (at 15% mind you) most reported that it was to be paid yearly which would be 45 mil a year IN INTEREST ALONE.  I know this loan was for the financing arm but it's hard to see them repaying this loan while planning to cut production and sales.  Just my thoughts.

[MobileAGBell]

It is being reported on the news and in our local newspaper that HD in York, PA is moving there operations to one of three states. My home state of KY. - IN. or TN. One site in KY is in Shelbyville about 20-30 minutes east of Louisville, where there's a lot of manufacturing type businesses. The news reported that it would be a Motorcycle manufacturing facility (not sure what model) and parts distribution center. Officials from HD has visited the KY site at least 3 times and said it would employee around 100 workers. Man thats what we need here is JOBS. Come on HD we welcome you with open arms. Does anyone know why they want to leave PA? is it wages? Union? Who knows.

Chris  

It's been all over the media here in Indianapolis, too. Reports indicate HD plans to move the entire York, PA, operations.

The Indiana site under consideration is Shelbyville, IN, along I-74. According to the media the plant would employ at least 1,000 people. It's also been reported that the plant could attract ~100,000 visitors a year. One of the local TV stations interviewed the owner of the closest HD dealer to the proposed plant. Needless to say he is very excited about the possibility of the increased traffic and business to his shop. The governor of Indiana rides a Harley and is active in benefit rides here which can't hurt the efforts.

Sounds like the York plant is going to move. Somewhere.

[Harleyrider_49]

I have heard rumors & tales of this move also, not sure of which "Shelbyville", but have heard KY. Would love to see this thing come to IN. On another note, how do ya git' these "characters" in your messages?

[04se103]

  this what you talking about? If so they are above where you type in the box

[smkymtnboy]

i just want to get one of those chinese frigs at $2 dollars shipping. shipping charges on my bike from idaho to tn was 654.00. guess they just burnt my arse on that one. never seen it coming either.

[Harleyrider_49]

to: 04SE103.....Yep, that's what I'm talk"n bout.... can't seem to upload a pic of my bike as an avatar ,neither,ain"t much on this computer stuff,will keep try'n

[04se103]

Look at this maybe it will help you out http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=3583.msg46923#msg46923

[Gone Fishin']

Louis

Differing opinions make interesting debates..... I wish we were closer geographically so we could do this over some beers and a steak or ??

Hey Jerry,

Over some beers would be fine. And of course we are debating the issue, not us ;-). 

Harley is at risk of following the Detroit automobile dealers down the proverbial drain if they don't cut back on production and remove stale inventory in the retail stores. It really doesn't matter if the bikes are floor planned or purchased by the dealers. In the end if the customers aren't buying everything that is being made there is going to be trouble.

Yes, but reducing volume does not work in a competitive market, unless you’d want to marginalize yourself. If Harley would cut down production further, reduce dealers and such, competitors would immediate move ahead and grab the Marketshare.

Transportation Cost understand the Chinese $2 refrigerator shipping cost but Harley's volume discount shipping cost is now $380 passed on to us to ship from York, PA and it's going to get more expensive over time.  In fact you may already be aware of this but Harley outsourced their shipping function last year to save costs. I think they may still own some of the trailers but that tractors are the vendors.

Yes, it is know that they transportation has largely been outsourced. But since, for bikes to dealers, it is charged (seems at a 400% premium) to customers, it does not matter to Harley. Transportation of parts throughout the country for final assembly is truly a cost which matters very little in our days.

My last thought on this is if you aren't convinced then please take a look at all of the Harley executives that are "hanging up their spurs", cashing out on their stock and stock options and leaving the business to the new and younger guys and ladies that in many cases have been hired from the"outside" and have no idea about Harley's.

You are not correct on the insider trading. Please take a look for yourself: http://www.secform4.com/insider-trading/793952.htm You’d have to go back into 2006 to see significant sales by insiders.

With all that pr around a possible move of the production facility away from York, I continue to view that as a very crude, but probably effective negotiation tactic. We’ll see.

Ride safely,
Louis

[CVOStreetglide]

Louis:

It will surely be interesting to see how all of this evolves over time.  But we're safe since we have our new rides..

Regards

Jerry

[Hoist!]

Slow bike sales have caused HD to also go into the Moving business? Hmmm......!

Hoist!

[Gone Fishin']

Absolutely!
I am not in the market for 2010 and 2011. But who knows? If they get really innovative ... ahh, nahh, forget it.

Cheers,
Louis

Louis:

It will surely be interesting to see how all of this evolves over time.  But we're safe since we have our new rides..

Regards

Jerry

[NVTHIS]

Here's the latest that was printed in our local Newspaper (COURIER-JOURNAL)

Shelby County still in running for Harley plant
BY JERE DOWNS • JDOWNS@COURIER-JOURNAL.COM • SEPTEMBER 8, 2009
Read Comments(17) Recommend(2)Print this pageE-mail this articleShare
 
Shelby County survived the cut as Harley-Davidson recently narrowed its list of potential sites for relocating a 2,500-worker motorcycle plant now located near York, Pa.



“Kansas City is no longer under consideration,” company spokesman Bob Klein said, adding the hallowed hog manufacturer will decide the fate of its historic Pennsylvania operation by the end of the year.

Besides rural Shelbyville, Harley-Davidson is also looking at sites near Indianapolis, Ind. and Murfreesboro, Tenn., Klein said.

Relocation incentives were named by Klein as one of three factors the company is considering as it looks outside Pennsylvania. Others include, Klein said, availability of a skilled work force, building sites, and “geographic proximity to our markets.”

York is about 100 west of Philadelphia and a move to Shelbyville would move Harley-Davidson production about 600 miles further inland.

Undergoing consolidation in the wake of declining sales, Harley-Davidson is exploring how it can cut costs with its largest union. The current union contract, with an average wage scale of $23 per hour, expires in February.

Tom Santone, business representative of Local Lodge 175 of the Machinists union in York did not return phone calls seeking comment.

So far, Pennsylvania has assembled $15 million in taxpayer-funded incentives for capital repairs and remediation of Harley-Davidson’s York County 232-acre site, a spokesman for Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell said. Klein declined to comment on Pennsylvania incentives.

Kentucky’s skilled work force is an asset as the state pursues Harley-Davidson, said Jay Blanton, a spokesman for Gov. Steve Beshear.

“The Governor believes Harley-Davidson is an iconic brand that any community would be proud to have as a member.” Blanton said.

“We are aggressively courting a number of projects, designed to bring good-paying jobs to our state in areas that reflect our strengths,” he added. “Advanced manufacturing in this industry is an inarguable strength of our state and our labor force.”

[LarryB]

Rutherford County and Tennessee need to respond with a counter-attack of their own to bring the motorcycle maker to Murfreesboro.

Murfreesboro is a finalist for a Harley plant relocation as the company considers whether to upgrade its facility at York, Pa., in Springettsbury Township or build a modern plant elsewhere and hire a more efficient workforce.

Pennsylvania is serious about keeping the plant, offering Harley-Davidson an incentive package that includes $15 million in capital to upgrade the facility as well as job training programs for employees to streamline operations, according to the governor's office.

We need a campaign of our own to bring Harley-Davidson to Murfreesboro, from state and local leaders to the general public. The Daily News Journal is willing to help lead the effort with an invitation to Harley riders to meet at 9:30 a.m. Sept. 12 at Bumpus Harley-Davidson on Northwest Broad Street for photos and videos showing why Murfreesboro is Hog Heaven.

The Milwaukee-based company whose heavy-duty bikes are an icon of American motorcycling would be one of the best things to hit Rutherford County and Murfreesboro in years. Although officials have not determined how many jobs Harley could bring here, it could easily be more than 1,000, since some 2,300 workers are employed at the York plant, which makes Touring and Softail models, as well as custom-made motorcycles.

Rutherford County needs new jobs to offset losses at Bridgestone and numerous other employers. The facility could also bring thousands of tourists to Rutherford County for trips through the manufacturing plant.

Our community has a lot to offer Harley-Davidson USA.

One of the sites being considered here is on Joe B. Jackson Parkway, which has easy access off I-24 and is suitable for the infrastructure needed for a large manufacturing plant.

Murfreesboro city government is capable of handling a large manufacturing construction project, having played a role in the development of The Avenue Murfreesboro and the $270 million MTMC on Medical Center Parkway
Rutherford County has educational facilities, ranging from MTSU to Motlow State Community College to Tennessee Technology Center, that create a good workforce.



The people here have a strong work ethic, too. They're willing to put in a hard day for good pay and benefits. Tennessee is also a right-to-work state, which could be a factor if Harley is considering leaving a union stronghold.

Harley-Davidson shuttered the Pennsylvania plant for three weeks in February 2007 before reaching a settlement with union workers.

Harley officials have already said the company's first choice is to remain in York. But that doesn't mean Rutherford County and Tennessee should give up.

Regardless of whether we're a bargaining chip, Rutherford County and Tennessee need to go all out for this operation. Murfreesboro already has Bumpus Harley-Davidson, and we see more Harleys on the road every day. This could be huge.

Maybe we could have a BBQ

[NVTHIS]

Come on Larry, you and I know that Tennessee is a very very nice place but it's no Kentucky. LOL We have it all here with KY Bluegrass for our Race Horses and the right kind of work force to build Iron Horses. So come Harley-Davidson we want you in Kentucky. Go Harley, Go Harley

                        And here are the Harley  Davidson Cheerleaders.

[iski]

Appears the MoCo is about to get some financial mileage out of that strike back in Feb. 07 in York.  Whether they stay or go, they get to cash in.

[Wanna ride]

The Capitoal drive plant is also closing. In fact, we rode up there on Sept. 5th and took the LAST plant tour. The only engines they wers still making were the Sportsters mills. All the merch with the Capitol Drive logo on it was reduced to 50% off. They were also selling the tour guide shirts. Our tour guide said they were moving about 6 miles up Capitol Drive to the new plant that the bigger motors are built at, and they didn't think the new plant would have tours. Kinda sad, really. I've visited that plant about 5 or 6 times, and have several different coffee mugs from there over the years.

[NVTHIS]

Well I'm not sure what the status of the York plant moving here in Louisville, but I have a friend that works in the Governors office nd he told me two weeks ago that the State is still talking to Harley but not as much and everything is major hush hush. Who knows what's going to happen.

[OhioDave]

This appears to be nothing more than a public charade to break the local union in York, whether you like unions or not moving this operation would be devastating to the employees and their family's in York, i wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[iski]

To a certain degree, if Harley does move, the union in York accelerated the decision for HD by their actions in 07.  HD may stay if the pot is sweetened enough, but a more central US location alone would save lots of $$ long term in shipping costs alone. 

[Eqcons]

Actually the York facility has three production areas

- the Touring factory, quite old, no a/c
- the little CVO facility, which is being phased out, as we learned
- the quite modern Softail factory, which is actually Harley's newest plant (2003, I believe)

Hmmm.. I may be wrong (not unusual with advancing years, Louis!) but when I toured the York facility in 2004, the CVO facility was just a small separate area of the Touring factory - not what I'd describe as a production area on its own.

Harley are becoming blinder to the real problem - people have become, and are becoming even more so, resistant to The MoCo's ever increasing, completely nuts, prices.  That's why the average age of the Harley owner is rising, because younger folks can't buy them.

I can say this for sure - I won't be buying another CVO Ultra (and I've bought three of the overpriced things in three years) because The price in the UK is now just plain silly.  I can buy a pretty expensive car for that sort of money, but I refuse to spend that on a car.  By the end of the year, when our VAT goes back to 17½%, a CUSE5 will cost around £28000 = €30000 = $44500 (with thousands of $$ less accessories than they come standard with in the US!) ANYBODY who pays that for one is just plain stupid.  More money than sense. If I were Bill Gates, with all his money, I STILL wouldn't pay that for one, because they are just not worth the money.  And yes, I know that they are much dearer than that in some parts of Europe, but my opinion stays the same. As long as there are enough people silly enough to pay it, they'll keep upping the price - why rich Europeans pay that sort of money for a bike leaves me speechless.  And of course, it's not just the bikes, but the parts.  They have lost their grip on reality, thinking that people will just pay, regardless of the price.  Well, that's not the case any more, and they are going to get deeper into trouble if they don't wake up and smell the coffee (which they don't appear to be doing), instead of behaving like headless chickens moving plants around. Whatever they do to cut costs will not help until they realise that the product still won't sell in the quantities they want if the price is too high (and it is).  Straws and camels' backs come to mind...

Jim

[FLSTFI Dave]

I am with Larry B on this, move them to TN.  No state income tax, Right to Work state, Murfeesbourgh area has a whole lot of manufacturing experiance.  TN is a nice low cost state to live in.

[RedDevil]

Hmmm.. I may be wrong (not unusual with advancing years, Louis!) but when I toured the York facility in 2004, the CVO facility was just a small separate area of the Touring factory - not what I'd describe as a production area on its own.

Harley are becoming blinder to the real problem - people have become, and are becoming even more so, resistant to The MoCo's ever increasing, completely nuts, prices.  That's why the average age of the Harley owner is rising, because younger folks can't buy them.

I can say this for sure - I won't be buying another CVO Ultra (and I've bought three of the overpriced things in three years) because The price in the UK is now just plain silly.  I can buy a pretty expensive car for that sort of money, but I refuse to spend that on a car.  By the end of the year, when our VAT goes back to 17½%, a CUSE5 will cost around £28000 = €30000 = $44500 (with thousands of $$ less accessories than they come standard with in the US!) ANYBODY who pays that for one is just plain stupid.  More money than sense. If I were Bill Gates, with all his money, I STILL wouldn't pay that for one, because they are just not worth the money.  And yes, I know that they are much dearer than that in some parts of Europe, but my opinion stays the same. As long as there are enough people silly enough to pay it, they'll keep upping the price - why rich Europeans pay that sort of money for a bike leaves me speechless.  And of course, it's not just the bikes, but the parts.  They have lost their grip on reality, thinking that people will just pay, regardless of the price.  Well, that's not the case any more, and they are going to get deeper into trouble if they don't wake up and smell the coffee (which they don't appear to be doing), instead of behaving like headless chickens moving plants around. Whatever they do to cut costs will not help until they realise that the product still won't sell in the quantities they want if the price is too high (and it is).  Straws and camels' backs come to mind...

Jim

Jim,
I hear ya brother...but there are idiots here that will pay $44000 for an SEUC at Rossmeyer's dealership in Daytona, that's $9K over MSRP here!!  But you're right...Harley needs to lower their prices and become competitive in today's economy.  Either that, or they're going to have to go back to limited production where you had to put your name on a waiting list at a dealer and maybe wait a full model year to get a new bike.  It was those days that caused the dealers and the MoCo to get greedy and they haven't learned that the economy today won't support that mentality.

[Eqcons]

Jim,
I hear ya brother...but there are idiots here that will pay $44000 for an SEUC at Rossmeyer's dealership in Daytona, that's $9K over MSRP here!!  But you're right...Harley needs to lower their prices and become competitive in today's economy.  Either that, or they're going to have to go back to limited production where you had to put your name on a waiting list at a dealer and maybe wait a full model year to get a new bike.  It was those days that caused the dealers and the MoCo to get greedy and they haven't learned that the economy today won't support that mentality.

Good summary! 

[NVTHIS]

If I'm reading between the lines that are coming out of our KY Capital I no way think that Harley is leaving York. I think this is just there way of busting the unions balls and getting all the tax breaks they want. Kentucky has a history for giving the farm away to get companies to come here and when they do that we all loose. Did Harley up the prices on CVO's from last year? I was told by one of the local dealerships here that no price increase over last year. Is that true. 

[harley56]

If I'm reading between the lines that are coming out of our KY Capital I no way think that Harley is leaving York. I think this is just there way of busting the unions balls and getting all the tax breaks they want. Kentucky has a history for giving the farm away to get companies to come here and when they do that we all loose. Did Harley up the prices on CVO's from last year? I was told by one of the local dealerships here that no price increase over last year. Is that true. 

I think this is correct.......
Two carryover CVO's from 2009:
  -  FXDSFE:  Priced stayed the same.
  -  FLHTCUSE4:  Price increased $500

All regular touring model base MSRP's remained the same and............
Some non-CVO models have decreased for 2010 - The FLSTC (-$1,000) and the FLSTN (-$650)and I believe at least one dyna model (FXDB Street Bob) is almost $800 less than it 2008 msrp.

[NVTHIS]

The Nightly news just came on and the lead story was Harley Davidson. It was reported tonight that Harley narrowed it's search to Shelbyville, KY. only. They said a December vote would take place if the company and unions could not agree on a new contract. So if this happens it could be in my back yard. I really don't expect any move, I think it's another way to cut wages. But who knows maybe it's really going to come down to saving on shipping cost???

[MKW]

If there was a CVO website (or the web period) in the late 70's, early 80's these types of discussions would have taken place.  It is evolution, not revolution.  HD has new leadership, someone outside of the industry, to reshape the company and move it forward.  Many changes are coming and I for one look to the future with hopes that HD will get their footing and put in another 106 years!  Lets face it, Ronald Reagan isn't around anymore to help the company.

[Harleyrider_49]

Have been wonder'n on this move also, according to a local news channel in my area (Tue., I think) HD Execs. had or were meeting with KY officials, and according to 1 source, the Shelbyville in question was definately KY.   Now,....maybe HD is yank'n PA.'s chain to come on w/some more state incentives, who knows, and if they ACT like they'r mov'n.....maybe they"ll get somewhere w/ PA.  just a thought

[LarryB]

That's the general thought and has been for some. HD asked TN " what are you going to do for me ?" but since TN has gotten burned by this before by auto makers they offered some minor tax breaks. KY offered some huge incentives, they might be better off if HD stays in PA. They can't afford to loose jobs there as much as jobs are needed elsewhere.

[DCFIREMANN]

I heard through the rumor mill yesterday that the union is talking STRIKE!!! If that happens I think they may make the move to KY!

Just the thought of the cost to build and move a production facility like that is scary!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[RedDevil]

I heard through the rumor mill yesterday that the union is talking STRIKE!!! If that happens I think they may make the move to KY!

Just the thought of the cost to build and move a production facility like that is scary!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Now there would be a smart move by the union.  Give the MoCo the excuse they need to move operations and open a non-union plant in Kentucky.  Ya gotta wonder what genius at the top of the union food chain came up with that brilliant decision.
 

[Boatman]

Now there would be a smart move by the union.  Give the MoCo the excuse they need to move operations and open a non-union plant in Kentucky.  Ya gotta wonder what genius at the top of the union food chain came up with that brilliant decision.
 

Between attitudes like that and an antiquated York plant, I'd move too.

[NVTHIS]

I can tell you guys that I live about 20 minutes from where the new plant will be build if it happens and it's on the news about everyday. The Governor just called for a special session to give Harley-Davidson more tax breaks and more of everything to get them to come. Harley would be some dumb SOB not to take what KY is offering. I think we are giving them the moon and the ride there. We want that plant and the 1,500 jobs that come with it. Come on HD we will welcome you with open arms. Sorry York but it's not the time to play hard ball with peoples jobs and how they put food on the table. Oh, the word around the dealership is they want to come and build a new plant because the state is going to help pay for it. I guess thats my tax dollars at work.

[CVOStreetglide]

I can tell you guys that I live about 20 minutes from where the new plant will be build if it happens and it's on the news about everyday. The Governor just called for a special session to give Harley-Davidson more tax breaks and more of everything to get them to come. Harley would be some dumb SOB not to take what KY is offering. I think we are giving them the moon and the ride there. We want that plant and the 1,500 jobs that come with it. Come on HD we will welcome you with open arms. Sorry York but it's not the time to play hard ball with peoples jobs and how they put food on the table. Oh, the word around the dealership is they want to come and build a new plant because the state is going to help pay for it. I guess thats my tax dollars at work.

I still can't understand why they continue to have so many assembly plants in a shrinking market.

Maybe if they do Kentucky right with state-of-the-art technology then only Kansas will be left over time.  I am still thinking that Milwaukee will be the museum for the Motor Company only.

Is your location close to a major railroad connection--east/west north/south???

[NVTHIS]

I still can't understand why they continue to have so many assembly plants in a shrinking market.

Maybe if they do Kentucky right with state-of-the-art technology then only Kansas will be left over time.  I am still thinking that Milwaukee will be the museum for the Motor Company only.

Is your location close to a major railroad connection--east/west north/south???

You maybe on to something there. We do have major Hwy's and Railroad here. That has been a big selling point, location for delivery and fright.

[moscooter]

 
I'm seeing that at least some of you are zeroing in on one of the "key" issues...........The FuKK**g union.   Just like the reasons Detroit will (never) resurface as a viable site for Autos,  (reason being union demands that won't allow for competitiveness).

I cannot believe they (HD) will settle upon any site (tax breaks, etc.) unless they can be reasonably certain they won't have to deal with union contract B.S.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Now there would be a smart move by the union.  Give the MoCo the excuse they need to move operations and open a non-union plant in Kentucky.  Ya gotta wonder what genius at the top of the union food chain came up with that brilliant decision.
 

Union leadership is out for the union executives, not the blue collar guy or gal they represent.

Between attitudes like that and an antiquated York plant, I'd move too.

Yep.

There is a reason all new auto plants have been built in the South like KY,TN, AL and so on.  Right to work states.  They still pay a very good wage, with good benifits. 

[Fired00d]

Union leadership is out for the union executives, not the blue collar guy or gal they represent.
Yep.

There is a reason all new auto plants have been built in the South like KY,TN, AL and so on.  Right to work states.  They still pay a very good wage, with good benifits. 

Sad to say but I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[ultrafxr]

I don't know when the workers actually work.  I've been to York at least three times and all the other plants once.  I came a day early to the Pony Express ride in Saint Joseph, MO, in Sept so I could tour the KC plant on the way.  I have never ever actually seen a production line run.  There must be elves putting the bikes together at night or something.  Workers have either been on lunch break, in a plant wide meeting, doing model year changeover, etc., etc.  No joke, never seen production line running.  I'm through doing plant tours - well maybe if they do move to KY since it is so close I might give 'em just one more chance. 

[Gone Fishin']

I was at York with the CVO tour. Softail factory was very busy with the assembly line moving swiftly. Touring factory was on hold because of production reduction. CVO assembly (they still had that) was very active. 2 out of 3 = not bad.

Ride safely,
Louis

I don't know when the workers actually work.  I've been to York at least three times and all the other plants once.  I came a day early to the Pony Express ride in Saint Joseph, MO, in Sept so I could tour the KC plant on the way.  I have never ever actually seen a production line run.  There must be elves putting the bikes together at night or something.  Workers have either been on lunch break, in a plant wide meeting, doing model year changeover, etc., etc.  No joke, never seen production line running.  I'm through doing plant tours - well maybe if they do move to KY since it is so close I might give 'em just one more chance. 

[HogBreath]

Union leadership is out for the union executives, not the blue collar guy or gal they represent.
Yep.

There is a reason all new auto plants have been built in the South like KY,TN, AL and so on.  Right to work states.  They still pay a very good wage, with good benifits. 

Ky doesn't have the right to work laws. Ky is a union state. Maybe not as strong as say Illinois..

[tazmun]

I was at York with the CVO tour. Softail factory was very busy with the assembly line moving swiftly. Touring factory was on hold because of production reduction. CVO assembly (they still had that) was very active. 2 out of 3 = not bad.
Ride safely,
Louis

Louis,
So when did you tour the plant?  When I was there, the line moved at a very SLOW pace!

[moscooter]

 
"Ky doesn't have the right to work laws. Ky is a union state. Maybe not as strong as say Illinois.."

IMO.....It would be insane for HD to relocate to Ky if they gotta deal with the union again.  WTF.

[djkak]

"Ky doesn't have the right to work laws. Ky is a union state. Maybe not as strong as say Illinois.."

IMO.....It would be insane for HD to relocate to Ky if they gotta deal with the union again.  WTF.

I wonder if the evolution of work rules and entitlements over the many decades that this plant has been around has resulted in a somewhat dysfunctional environment. Starting over may be an option that would return long term value. 

[AZ SESG]

"Ky doesn't have the right to work laws. Ky is a union state. Maybe not as strong as say Illinois.."

IMO.....It would be insane for HD to relocate to Ky if they gotta deal with the union again.  WTF.

   Union negotiations favor the company when it is a new enterprise in a new state. Where there is no precedent, the terms will support compensation based on employee performance, time sensitive production, higher quality standards, limited bias, etc.

  Many have posted their discontent toward the vile union. But, their displeasure is misplaced. The union can only gain strength at a rate allowed by the company. Poor or weak company management allows, sometimes promotes, a strong biased union. Once this precedent is set it is difficult, if not impossible, to regress.

  Members of the Detroit area UAW have, for many years, referred to one particular manufacturer as, “Generous Motors.”  This is the result of feeble company management. Whether you lose focus during the, “fat,” years due to total annual sales, manufacturer ratings, profit margins, bonus incentives, etc; the result of this lost focus shown brightly as companies surrendered their bargaining position to sustain the status quo.

  There has never been an occasion where a dynamic, focused, company management -team surrendered to the union.

Side note:
  Union leaders are often hand-picked by the companies; then solicited to the union membership by union leadership to insure election. This is relative to the question of sound company management: Many leaders of large companies consort with union leaders from day one. Large companies continue to make this vital error, failing to realize bargaining leverage is lost once you become bed partners with those whom you employ.

  My $.02

[NVTHIS]

The Union members voted yesterday to take the pay cuts and also cut in job. The York plant will stay right where it is. We (Kentucky) will have to give all the tax money to someone else.

[Gone Fishin']

I rest my case.

Ride safely,
Louis

(...)
I personally believe (at least for now) that the Moco has no plans to move the factory away from York. I think the high degree of publicity (how many times have we read about this in the last six to eight weeks?) speaks for a strong case of signaling. What they are probably trying to do is to make the people in York believe, that a move is in the works, while they barter for concession from unions, local authorities and the likes.

Just an analysis. I may be wrong.

[09S/E roadglide]

   Union negotiations favor the company when it is a new enterprise in a new state. Where there is no precedent, the terms will support compensation based on employee performance, time sensitive production, higher quality standards, limited bias, etc.

  Many have posted their discontent toward the vile union. But, their displeasure is misplaced. The union can only gain strength at a rate allowed by the company. Poor or weak company management allows, sometimes promotes, a strong biased union. Once this precedent is set it is difficult, if not impossible, to regress.

  Members of the Detroit area UAW have, for many years, referred to one particular manufacturer as, “Generous Motors.”  This is the result of feeble company management. Whether you lose focus during the, “fat,” years due to total annual sales, manufacturer ratings, profit margins, bonus incentives, etc; the result of this lost focus shown brightly as companies surrendered their bargaining position to sustain the status quo.

  There has never been an occasion where a dynamic, focused, company management -team surrendered to the union.


Never been an occasion   Maybe you should look into Eastern Airlines. My whole family works or worked for GM. You think that GM gave all that to employees cause of weak management !! Im sure there was no union pressure  Please.....there is NO place for unions in the current environment   

Side note:
  Union leaders are often hand-picked by the companies; then solicited to the union membership by union leadership to insure election. This is relative to the question of sound company management: Many leaders of large companies consort with union leaders from day one. Large companies continue to make this vital error, failing to realize bargaining leverage is lost once you become bed partners with those whom you employ.

  My $.02

[NVTHIS]

I rest my case.

Ride safely,
Louis

Louis, you called it.

[moscooter]

 
I agree,  you called it (this time).  I have to believe recent and still current economic conditions and the degree of unemployment across the country contributed greatly to the union members accepting the reality of the situation.

Most of the time,  unions won't back off and take the company down the tubes.   It happened recently in the steel industry in Georgetown, S.C.,  it happened in the meat packing industry in Omaha and Chicago when I was a kid,  we've seen the fallout in Detroit........on and on.

At least,  most of these guys/gals will still have a job versus standing in the unemployment lines and moaning about how they got screwed by the company.......

[CVOStreetglide]

   Union negotiations favor the company when it is a new enterprise in a new state. Where there is no precedent, the terms will support compensation based on employee performance, time sensitive production, higher quality standards, limited bias, etc.

  Many have posted their discontent toward the vile union. But, their displeasure is misplaced. The union can only gain strength at a rate allowed by the company. Poor or weak company management allows, sometimes promotes, a strong biased union. Once this precedent is set it is difficult, if not impossible, to regress.

  Members of the Detroit area UAW have, for many years, referred to one particular manufacturer as, “Generous Motors.”  This is the result of feeble company management. Whether you lose focus during the, “fat,” years due to total annual sales, manufacturer ratings, profit margins, bonus incentives, etc; the result of this lost focus shown brightly as companies surrendered their bargaining position to sustain the status quo.

  There has never been an occasion where a dynamic, focused, company management -team surrendered to the union.
Side note:
  Union leaders are often hand-picked by the companies; then solicited to the union membership by union leadership to insure election. This is relative to the question of sound company management: Many leaders of large companies consort with union leaders from day one. Large companies continue to make this vital error, failing to realize bargaining leverage is lost once you become bed partners with those whom you employ.

  My $.02

Well you may not have been around when "The Union" put Eastern Airlines out of business. They union guys did it just to make a point regarding who had the most power--Eastern or he Union. Like the old saying goes...."Now how's that working for you" ...today???

Regards

[sadunbar]

http://motorcycling.speedtv.com/article/bikes-harley-davidson-to-remain-in-york/bikes-harley-davidson-to-remain-in-york


Looks like it's over... HD to stay in York....

[AZ SESG]

  I should have been more clear on the point regarding strong management teams and surrender.

  Companies with strong management teams who refuse to give away the farm but, do not react quick enough, (hiring replacement workers - restructuring - using the opportunity to establish a non-union shop), to salvage their business, have not surrendered. They may have gone down but, they put up a fight. They did not cave-in, granting every concession to the union, placing themselves in a financial snare which would soon require them to rob Peter and write Paul a bad check. Strong, experienced management teams do not surrender.

 

[CBW]

hd just announced that they are staying in york

[JCZ]

The Union members voted yesterday to take the pay cuts and also cut in job. The York plant will stay right where it is. We (Kentucky) will have to give all the tax money to someone else.

[/color]

Back to the taxpayer?    Naw.

[Hawg]

here's a link http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/HD_News/Company/newsarticle.jsp?locale=en_US&articleLink=News/0614_press_release.hdnews&newsYear=2009&history=news