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[aero8]

Dear members of the CVO Forum

I was just informed that from august 1, that for US-dealers it is not longer allowed to deliver parts to NON-US Customers.

What the **** thinks HD, they are violating the free trade agreements which are valid worldwide!! These guys in Milwaukee are getting more arrogant and stupid than they should. Now I have to say that HD is getting crazy!!!

We pay in Switzerland 48000 dollars( 46000swiss francs) for a FLHXSE2, most of the parts cost 3 to 4 times more than in USA, but instead of adopting the prices to a reasonable level ,they try to do some sort of prohibition to maximise their profits.
I drive since 25 years HD, I was always a very loyal customer but I have to admit that I am very angry and dissappointed.

I am sure that HD will loose a lot of reputation with this very stupid and illegal behavior!!

I like to know what you think about this strategie from HD?? Am I to severe with them, should this behaviour be accepted?

Kind regards
Aero8/ Switzerland

[Twolanerider]

So, screw 'em.  Get a buddy state-side to pick stuff up for you and send it over.  Rules like that are too stupid to be tolerated and too easily avoided.  I ship parts to places in Europe or Asia for guys several times a year.

[Fired00d]

Just wondering where did you hear this... is it posted somewhere (can you provide a link), or did someone tell you this?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[martys]

Just wondering where did you hear this... is it posted somewhere (can you provide a link), or did someone tell you this?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

X2

[dayne66]

It's not much better up here in Canada!! Trev Deeley ( Thee importer of all things Harley) over-charges for bikes and parts. The MOCO has told US dealers they can't sell to Canadians....or else!!

Summer of 2012 I (and a couple others) might rent a beach house in Oregon and each have a utility bill in our name and buy/reg/insure the bike in Oregon for a month of riding....to save $6ooo each!  But...now I think the MOCO may be making the warranties NON-x-ferable.  GRRRR!

Just might be stuck buying in Canada. I have looked through the catalogue( paper and on both the US & CDN site) and have not found HD's own version of KY Jelly...if I use a brand other than their's to 'ease the initial purchase' , does that mean my Canadian warranty is invalid?

[LarryB]

IT'S TRUE.  I got a letter from the MOCO about it last week. they say it competes with the overseas dealers. and next is going to be no more selling parts at discounts on the internet

[aero8]

Dear CVO friends

I was informed today by a salesperson from a US dealership that these restrictions will apply from august1!!

Aero8/ Switzerland

[martys]

IT'S TRUE.  I got a letter from the MOCO about it last week. they say it competes with the overseas dealers. and next is going to be no more selling parts at discounts on the internet

Does this just pertain to "shipping parts" to Canada and overseas or are they telling the US dealers that if I as a Canadian go into a US dealer to buy parts they are not to sell them to me?

[Fired00d]

IT'S TRUE.  I got a letter from the MOCO about it last week. they say it competes with the overseas dealers. and next is going to be no more selling parts at discounts on the internet

Can you post the letter?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[dayne66]

There are "re-shippers" on E-bay that I have used in the past ...not for HD stuff....but with others that won't ship to Canada. The Dealer won't even need to know that you are CDN or that it is ultimately getting shipped to Canada. He'll have a US address so his a$$ will be covered.

[mjb765]

Does this just pertain to "shipping parts" to Canada and overseas or are they telling the US dealers that if I as a Canadian go into a US dealer to buy parts they are not to sell them to me?

Can't see them asking for ID on every purchase......unless you use your Canadian accent

[charles05663]

The irony of the whole matter is HD encourages China shipping to the USA.

[VRODDAVE]

Just an addition to the parts restriction. 

A few years back i was up in "Coure D Alane" idaho,  and tried to buy a new SE road king they had on the showroom floor. Some of you may remember that purdy gray/black/blue paint scheme.  Well,  they told me they were not allowed to sell to anyone from California.  I said i was looking for my retirment home up  here and that i will not take the bike to california, and they said as long as i have a california DL they would not / could not sell to me.

now dont that beat all ....  restrictuions within the  US ..
 

[Spiderman]

I have to ask our foreign brothers and sisters this question. When you speak of cost do you refer to what you pay when you walk into an H-D Dealership in Europe (and elsewhere) ? If so, a HUGE amount of your bottom line cost is shipping costs, tariffs and taxes. 1st, shipping costs have gotten to where they amount to at least a 40% increase in the MSRP of anything. So while we'll pay $100 for an item here stateside, you guys are going to pay $140 Then you add in the tariffs and taxes placed on those items by your country. And that is the biggest issue here. I bear no one any ill will wherever you live. Europe, Asia, South American, Russia whatever but there are very few consumer items sold here in the USA that we Americans pay a tariff on. I am not sure but I believe the luxury tax on certain brand autos expired some time ago. Your companies are free to sell their wares in the USA without the additional cost. As it appears to me every country in the world taxes or adds tarriffs to US goods shipped abroad. The playing field is not level. What it costs you as citizens of those countries is a lot of money to buy US made goods. What it costs us as Americans is jobs. When our companies can't compete with your domestic markets because of tariffs, the products don't get made so there's no need to hire people to do a job that doesn't need doing. Sorry if I've used this thread to rant about trade policies, but to my way of thinking, the entire issue comes down to just that.

B B

[murphy]

There are "re-shippers" on E-bay that I have used in the past ...not for HD stuff....but with others that won't ship to Canada. The Dealer won't even need to know that you are CDN or that it is ultimately getting shipped to Canada. He'll have a US address so his a$$ will be covered.

Want to make a bet that they get E-bay involved and force them to comply?

It was done with sales tax....

[dayne66]

Want to make a bet that they get E-bay involved and force them to comply?

It was done with sales tax....

I'm talking about buying directly from a US HD dealer and shipping to a US address....the "re-shipping" is the only part  purchased on e-bay ( and that can be done with-out e-bay.

[LarryB]

 




January 17, 2011

To: All U.S. Harley-Davidson Dealerships

Subject: PAM Non-Retail Sales Policy Update / New Third Party Internet Sales Policy

Dear Dealer:

At the December Executive Forum meetings Harley-Davidson announced a Third Party Internet Sales Policy pertaining to the sale of Genuine Motor Parts, Genuine Motor Accessories and MotorClothes® (PAM) products and clarification to the existing PAM Non-Retail Sales Policy. Realizing that not all dealerships were represented at the meetings, we want to ensure that all dealerships are aware of the new policy and the updates being made to the PAM Non-Retail Sales Policy.  An overview of the policies follows.

PAM Non-Retail Sales Policy

Effective August 1, 2011, a sale by a U.S. dealer of new and previously unsold Genuine PAM products will be considered a non-retail sale if the product is sold and shipped to any customer (including non-U.S. Harley-Davidson dealerships) located outside the United States.  A similar policy will apply to the sale of Licensed Products.

Third Party Internet Sales Policy

Effective January 1, 2012, the sale of new, current and previously unsold Genuine PAM products on any third party Internet website will be prohibited.  A similar policy will apply to the sale of Licensed Products.  

Details for each policy will be made available to the dealer network prior to the Winter Dealer Meeting.  

Sincerely,

 

Here you go

[martys]

so this is to say that an outstanding sales person (such as Jennie) will no longer be making record sales for the MOCO  unless we visit her at the store 

[Grizzly]

It doesn't say they can't, just that it "will be considered a non-retail sale".

Not sure how that will effect the dealers... May only effect their recording their points with the MoCo??? 
 

[Fired00d]

....
Here you go

Thanks.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Gank]

I have to ask our foreign brothers and sisters this question. When you speak of cost do you refer to what you pay when you walk into an H-D Dealership in Europe (and elsewhere) ? If so, a HUGE amount of your bottom line cost is shipping costs, tariffs and taxes. 1st, shipping costs have gotten to where they amount to at least a 40% increase in the MSRP of anything. So while we'll pay $100 for an item here stateside, you guys are going to pay $140 Then you add in the tariffs and taxes placed on those items by your country. And that is the biggest issue here. I bear no one any ill will wherever you live. Europe, Asia, South American, Russia whatever but there are very few consumer items sold here in the USA that we Americans pay a tariff on. I am not sure but I believe the luxury tax on certain brand autos expired some time ago. Your companies are free to sell their wares in the USA without the additional cost. As it appears to me every country in the world taxes or adds tarriffs to US goods shipped abroad. The playing field is not level. What it costs you as citizens of those countries is a lot of money to buy US made goods. What it costs us as Americans is jobs. When our companies can't compete with your domestic markets because of tariffs, the products don't get made so there's no need to hire people to do a job that doesn't need doing. Sorry if I've used this thread to rant about trade policies, but to my way of thinking, the entire issue comes down to just that.

B B

Yeah thats ok for the rest of the world.... but why cant I as a Canadian drive to Syracuse NY and buy what I like?  My government tells me I just pay HST and welcome... we have a Free Trade agreement... but HD will not sell to me.. with the Canadian $ worth more, thats huge savings for me... yet HD says I cannot.

Honda says I can so does victory... might have to look for something else

[martys]

Yeah thats ok for the rest of the world.... but why cant I as a Canadian drive to Syracuse NY and buy what I like?  My government tells me I just pay HST and welcome... we have a Free Trade agreement... but HD will not sell to me.. with the Canadian $ worth more, thats huge savings for me... yet HD says I cannot.

Honda says I can so does victory...might have to look for something else

I'm not buyin' that Gank  I know how much you love that SERG 

[Twolanerider]

Third Party Internet Sales Policy

Effective January 1, 2012, the sale of new, current and previously unsold Genuine PAM products on any third party Internet website will be prohibited.  A similar policy will apply to the sale of Licensed Products.

Unless I'm not understanding the letter there is nothing said here prohibiting Jenni (for example) to make the sales directly to her US customers just as she always has.  No website involved when parts are purchased from Jenni. 

Also don't see anything there that precludes purchases made at a dealer's own site.  Like Chicago Harley or Zanotti or Lake Shore.  Looks like their trying to crack down on stores selling on eBay.  They're prohobiting sales by dealers on "third party" websites.

[kraut]

I have to ask our foreign brothers and sisters this question. When you speak of cost do you refer to what you pay when you walk into an H-D Dealership in Europe (and elsewhere) ? If so, a HUGE amount of your bottom line cost is shipping costs, tariffs and taxes. 1st, shipping costs have gotten to where they amount to at least a 40% increase in the MSRP of anything. So while we'll pay $100 for an item here stateside, you guys are going to pay $140 Then you add in the tariffs and taxes placed on those items by your country. And that is the biggest issue here. I bear no one any ill will wherever you live. Europe, Asia, South American, Russia whatever but there are very few consumer items sold here in the USA that we Americans pay a tariff on. I am not sure but I believe the luxury tax on certain brand autos expired some time ago. Your companies are free to sell their wares in the USA without the additional cost. As it appears to me every country in the world taxes or adds tarriffs to US goods shipped abroad. The playing field is not level. What it costs you as citizens of those countries is a lot of money to buy US made goods. What it costs us as Americans is jobs. When our companies can't compete with your domestic markets because of tariffs, the products don't get made so there's no need to hire people to do a job that doesn't need doing. Sorry if I've used this thread to rant about trade policies, but to my way of thinking, the entire issue comes down to just that.

B B

sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. I just imported a piece of US machinery to Germany - as it's a comparatively cheap part, indeed shipping costs are significant, around 10 % of the entire bill.. Local taxes are 19 % plus 3,7 % customs all togehter adds up to 32,7 % .


As our H-D importer does not ship small quantities shipment costs are normally just forgettable, around 1 or 2 %. Lets say you have to put 35 % on top because of all this. That doesn't explain an MSRP in Germany of almost 72 % over MSRP US for exactly this piece of machinery  

[Spiderman]

sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. I just imported a piece of US machinery to Germany - as it's a comparatively cheap part, indeed shipping costs are significant, around 10 % of the entire bill.. Local taxes are 19 % plus 3,7 % customs all togehter adds up to 32,7 % .


As our H-D importer does not ship small quantities shipment costs are normally just forgettable, around 1 or 2 %. Lets say you have to put 35 % on top because of all this. That doesn't explain an MSRP in Germany of almost 72 % over MSRP US for exactly this piece of machinery  

To say I don't know what I'm talking about is a bit harsh. Perhaps I've got the exact numbers off and in some cases (as noted by you) off by a good margin. My point is that by your own admission there are tarriffs and I'll wager those tariffs are different for different products. I would expect that a product that was not available via a in country Mfg would not have as great a tarriff as one that was and so on. My point here was not to argue the exact numbers but to point out that we as US citizens buying a product made in our own country of course are going to pay less. Try to see the whole picture vice getting hung up in the exactitude of the verbiage.

B B

[martys]

Unless I'm not understanding the letter there is nothing said here prohibiting Jenni (for example) to make the sales directlyto her US customers just as she always has.  No website involved when parts are purchased from Jenni.  

Also don't see anything there that precludes purchases made at a dealer's own site.  Like Chicago Harley or Zanotti or Lake Shore.  Looks like their trying to crack down on stores selling on eBay.  They're prohobiting sales by dealers on "third party" websites.

This may be so Don but for the rest of the world it looks like the rules are changing.

PAM Non-Retail Sales Policy

Effective August 1, 2011, a sale by a U.S. dealer of new and previously unsold Genuine PAM products will be considered a non-retail sale if the product is sold and shipped to any customer (including non-U.S. Harley-Davidson dealerships) located outside the United States.  A similar policy will apply to the sale of Licensed Products.

Can anyone explain the term "non-retail sale" as it pertains to this new rule  

[sadunbar]

To say I don't know what I'm talking about is a bit harsh. Perhaps I've got the exact numbers off and in some cases (as noted by you) off by a good margin. My point is that by your own admission there are tarriffs and I'll wager those tariffs are different for different products. I would expect that a product that was not available via a in country Mfg would not have as great a tarriff as one that was and so on. My point here was not to argue the exact numbers but to point out that we as US citizens buying a product made in our own country of course are going to pay less. Try to see the whole picture vice getting hung up in the exactitude of the verbiage.

B B

And here I was convinced the product was mostly coming from China!           

[Spiderman]

And here I was convinced the product was mostly coming from China!           

Thanks for the laugh Scott. This thread needed some comic relief

B B

[martys]

Thanks for the laugh Scott. This thread needed some comic relief

B B

Well in that case... This must all be Dood's fault 

[Twolanerider]

This may be so Don but for the rest of the world it looks like the rules are changing.

PAM Non-Retail Sales Policy

Effective August 1, 2011, a sale by a U.S. dealer of new and previously unsold Genuine PAM products will be considered a non-retail sale if the product is sold and shipped to any customer (including non-U.S. Harley-Davidson dealerships) located outside the United States.  A similar policy will apply to the sale of Licensed Products.

Can anyone explain the term "non-retail sale" as it pertains to this new rule  

Under the dealership agreements the dealerships likely aren't licensed for non-retail P&A sales.  So that's the MoCo's polite way of telling the dealerships they can't make those sales.  And you're absolutely right about the export prohibition Marty.  Just because it doesn't bite us in the ass doesn't mean you're not effected. 

Still though; screw it.  Make up your parts lists and send them to me. 

[Spiderman]

Under the dealership agreements the dealerships likely aren't licensed for non-retail P&A sales.  So that's the MoCo's polite way of telling the dealerships they can't make those sales.  And you're absolutely right about the export prohibition Marty.  Just because it doesn't bite us in the ass doesn't mean you're not effected. 

Still though; screw it.  Make up your parts lists and send them to me. 

All I see is serious chit from you lately. Did you break your funnybone ? I used look for your posts just for the fun of it. Where's the old Don ? Did he fall into a chat pile or what ?

B B

[martys]

Under the dealership agreements the dealerships likely aren't licensed for non-retail P&A sales.  So that's the MoCo's polite way of telling the dealerships they can't make those sales.  And you're absolutely right about the export prohibition Marty.  Just because it doesn't bite us in the ass doesn't mean you're not effected. 

Still though; screw it.  Make up your parts lists and send them to me. 

After Aug. 1st I may just take you up on that offer    In fact that might become a new thread on the site to assist the non US members  

[Twolanerider]

All I see is serious chit from you lately. Did you break your funnybone ? I used look for your posts just for the fun of it. Where's the old Don ? Did he fall into a chat pile or what ?

B B

You must not be reading everything.  Hell, Neal moderated one of my posts last night just because I told someone "bite me." 

[Spiderman]

After Aug. 1st I may just take you up on that offer    In fact that might become a new thread on the site to assist the non US members  

That being the case, avoid the USPS like the plague. The bastards quote you one price then charge you double when it's time to actually ship.

B B

[martys]

That being the case, avoid the USPS like the plague. The bastards quote you one price then charge you double when it's time to actually ship.

B B

Don't they advertise that if it fits in "the box" it's only 4 Bucks 

[Twolanerider]

That being the case, avoid the USPS like the plague. The bastards quote you one price then charge you double when it's time to actually ship.

B B

Don't know about their bait and switch.  Probably avoid as I do almost all freight online.  But USPS is damned expensive for int'l freight now compared to what they were just two or three years ago.  Postal service used to be a bargain for int'l freight.  Now you've got to bend over for them as much or more than anyone else.

[Spiderman]

Don't they advertise that if it fits in "the box" it's only 4 Bucks 

That's for domestic and it depends on the size box. They've got a bunch of sizes. International they charge you by weight even on those "if it fits it ships" boxes. As to Twolane's post. I went to the post office, gave the the size, weight and destination of a box I wanted to ship so I could quote somebody the shipping cost. The Postal Worker gave me a quote, even jotted it on a piece of paper for me. Once I got the go-ahead from the buyer I took the box to the post office and all of a sudden I get this flim flam about it having to go by air and blah blah blah. Not none of this is the buyer's fault and I did not nor would I ever expect that individual to even feel bad about it. Caveat Emptor works in reverse too sometimes, I'm just off on a rant about the fricken USPS is all. And oh yeah, I think their rates go up about one a week too.

B B

[martys]

That's for domestic and it depends on the size box. They've got a bunch of sizes. International they charge you by weight even on those "if it fits it ships" boxes. As to Twolane's post. I went to the post office, gave the the size, weight and destination of a box I wanted to ship so I could quote somebody the shipping cost. The Postal Worker gave me a quote, even jotted it on a piece of paper for me. Once I got the go-ahead from the buyer I took the box to the post office and all of a sudden I get this flim flam about it having to go by air and blah blah blah. Not none of this is the buyer's fault and I did not nor would I ever expect that individual to even feel bad about it. Caveat Emptor works in reverse too sometimes, I'm just off on a rant about the fricken USPS is all. And oh yeah, I think their rates go up about one a week too.

B B

We have the same problems with Canada Post but I can't complain too much, because they are my employer and they "frown " on that  if we slam them 

[kraut]

To say I don't know what I'm talking about is a bit harsh. Perhaps I've got the exact numbers off and in some cases (as noted by you) off by a good margin. My point is that by your own admission there are tarriffs and I'll wager those tariffs are different for different products. I would expect that a product that was not available via a in country Mfg would not have as great a tarriff as one that was and so on. My point here was not to argue the exact numbers but to point out that we as US citizens buying a product made in our own country of course are going to pay less. Try to see the whole picture vice getting hung up in the exactitude of the verbiage.

B B

Sorry BB,

it's not harsh but back to topic. To give you an other example: motorcycle and P&A prices in GB presently are around 80% of those in Germany, shipping costs, taxes and customs are just exactly the same.

There is no fair trade problem between US and EC (except sometimes for spaghettis or bananas), those differences are caused by H-Ds very own different pricing for different countries. The continental European dealers are upset about it for several years (ever since the $ went down and their customers got used to buy first in the US and lately in GB).

Look at the huge profit H-D makes out of its still comparatively small international sales and you will se the reason is definitely not shipping costs nor taxes or customs.

[Grizzly]

I may be wrong, but I believe everywhere outside of the U.S. the MoCo has an importer in place (such as Deeley in Canada) that everything Harley goes through prior to arriving at the dealer's door.

I would suggest that these importers hedge themselves against currency fluctuations and therefore it is the importers who are making the money and not necessarily the MoCo itself.

Due to the now very large discrepancy in pricing (at least between CND and US pricing) with the CND$ being worth more than the US$, many Canadians are looking south of the border to purchase P&A as well as the bikes themselves and saving thousands of $'s... I would expect this is also why people from around the world are also ordering direct from US sources.

To protect those importers around the world (and their business), the MoCo has changed the rules with US dealers to avoid and discourage this practice.

Just my $.02 worth - which is currently worth approx. $.0203US

[dayne66]

I may be wrong, but I believe everywhere outside of the U.S. the MoCo has an importer in place (such as Deeley in Canada) that everything Harley goes through prior to arriving at the dealer's door.

I would suggest that these importers hedge themselves against currency fluctuations and therefore it is the importers who are making the money and not necessarily the MoCo itself.

Due to the now very large discrepancy in pricing (at least between CND and US pricing) with the CND$ being worth more than the US$, many Canadians are looking south of the border to purchase P&A as well as the bikes themselves and saving thousands of $'s... I would expect this is also why people from around the world are also ordering direct from US sources.

To protect those importers around the world (and their business), the MoCo has changed the rules with US dealers to avoid and discourage this practice.

Just my $.02 worth - which is currently worth approx. $.0203US

Deeley has high prices to protect their gross profit margins. It's Deeley that should take the lead in making a HD branded KY jelly....I might feel better leaving Steve Drane's if they used some!
More and more people from my neck of the woods are heading state-side for parts and installation....and also looking at the aftermarket more .....so Deeley loses out !!

[murphy]

You're right to a degree, but it's not just Deeley loosing out, it's HD as a whole... there are some folks who are tired of examples like this, and like me their current HD will be their last.

[Gank]

I'm not buyin' that Gank  I know how much you love that SERG 

Yes I do love it, and yes it will be taking some nice trips south... and I am allowed to make repairs to get home, so that new engine  (110 or bigger) and the 6 spd and new tires... they are needed to get home, so no tax

I will also replace my SERG with a SERGU maybe in two years.. the price will be down, and I will be able to afford it.  I maybe going south this year with my kid brother to buy him a bike and bring it back... just too much money to leave on the table not too.  I would like to buy from a Stealership but when they want $25K for 2005 Ultra.... and a newer one is avail in the the USA for $15K... why would you?  Even more so when you see it started off life as a USA bike to begin with.

[kraut]

I may be wrong, but I believe everywhere outside of the U.S. the MoCo has an importer in place (such as Deeley in Canada) that everything Harley goes through prior to arriving at the dealer's door.

I would suggest that these importers hedge themselves against currency fluctuations and therefore it is the importers who are making the money and not necessarily the MoCo itself.

Due to the now very large discrepancy in pricing (at least between CND and US pricing) with the CND$ being worth more than the US$, many Canadians are looking south of the border to purchase P&A as well as the bikes themselves and saving thousands of $'s... I would expect this is also why people from around the world are also ordering direct from US sources.

To protect those importers around the world (and their business), the MoCo has changed the rules with US dealers to avoid and discourage this practice.

Just my $.02 worth - which is currently worth approx. $.0203US

The importers in Europe are all subsidiaries of Harley-Davidson Inc. as far as I know, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and GB are for sure.

[Grizzly]

The importers in Europe are all subsidiaries of Harley-Davidson Inc. as far as I know, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and GB are for sure.

Well for sure in England they have an importer set up because I know the guy who was sent there to head it up for the first few years and I was told it was the same kind of thing as Deeley being the Canadian importer.

As mentioned, I'm not sure about the rest of the world - just figuring.

However, you maybe very well be right... The MoCo could have seen how much there is to be made (just working the exchange rates) with Deeley and put their own import business in place to cover other countries???  

[BUCKNUT GREG]

It's not much better up here in Canada!! Trev Deeley ( Thee importer of all things Harley) over-charges for bikes and parts. The MOCO has told US dealers they can't sell to Canadians....or else!!

Summer of 2012 I (and a couple others) might rent a beach house in Oregon and each have a utility bill in our name and buy/reg/insure the bike in Oregon for a month of riding....to save $6ooo each!  But...now I think the MOCO may be making the warranties NON-x-ferable.  GRRRR!

Just might be stuck buying in Canada. I have looked through the catalogue( paper and on both the US & CDN site) and have not founHD's own version of KY Jelly...if I use a brand other than their's to 'ease the initial purchase' , does that mean my Canadian warranty is invalid?
d

Nothing like a PBJ especially when its Jiffy and Kentucky Jelly.  Issssh its getting weirder by the day.   

[ice6900]

The importers in Europe are all subsidiaries of Harley-Davidson Inc. as far as I know, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and GB are for sure.!!!

well the poor Swiss dealership supply network is a subsiduary of the Germany, so double taxation here

I was just weakening and thinking of pulling the plug on a new SESG, but now after this latest nail in the coffin, my decision is going on the back burner

[kraut]

it won't get no better for us, Nigel 

[ThunderElectraCVO]

US H-D dealers will not be allowed to ship internationally... and particularly to Europe... parts and motorclothes.
August 2011 is the deadline.
The MoCo decided this...

Can anyone confirm this news ?
 

Very sad news for us : prices are quite twice in France...

[ice6900]

TRUE, this has previously been discussed in another thread!

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=58326.15

[Fired00d]

TRUE, this has previously been discussed in another thread!

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=58326.15

They have been merged... thanks.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Twolanerider]

They have been merged... thanks.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

Gary, you ever consider that the threads might feel pain when you do that to them?  You uncaring evil bastard.

[Fired00d]

Gary, you ever consider that the threads might feel pain when you do that to them?  You uncaring evil bastard.

I learned it all from you... check the EBCM #.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Spiderman]

Considering my varying "adventures" in cvoharleyland, I find it odd I have no EBCM # . Snotty bastards.

B B

[jcd520]

Dear members of the CVO Forum

I was just informed that from august 1, that for US-dealers it is not longer allowed to deliver parts to NON-US Customers.

What the **** thinks HD, they are violating the free trade agreements which are valid worldwide!! These guys in Milwaukee are getting more arrogant and stupid than they should. Now I have to say that HD is getting crazy!!!

We pay in Switzerland 48000 dollars( 46000swiss francs) for a FLHXSE2, most of the parts cost 3 to 4 times more than in USA, but instead of adopting the prices to a reasonable level ,they try to do some sort of prohibition to maximise their profits.
I drive since 25 years HD, I was always a very loyal customer but I have to admit that I am very angry and dissappointed.

I am sure that HD will loose a lot of reputation with this very stupid and illegal behavior!!

I like to know what you think about this strategie from HD?? Am I to severe with them, should this behaviour be accepted?

Kind regards
Aero8/ Switzerland

So get a buddy to buy your stuff from Jenni or any of the dealers that offer the 20% off deal and ship it over to you .

[2k]

Add me to the list that will help ANY fellow Harley owner get parts. I buy most everything at 20% off list and will gladly re-ship to a site member for postage. The little bit of time and fuel it will cost me will be charged to friendship! Make sure you know exactly what you want, as I will forward the package unopened. Shoot me a PM if I can help. Jimmy

[Hawg]

It's a great day when neighbours can help each other.  I would like to thank all of you for your offers to help as I too may take you up on this very kind offer.

[ice6900]

Some dealers have been informed to implement the new sales restrictions forthwith!

My wife has been regularly buying parts from Chicago harley for many years, on her last enquiry came the reply that MOCO reps had asked them to stop international shipment immediately! Colin wished her the best of luck and to try another dealership.


WE WILL continue to buy and shop where we get the best prices!

[aero8]

Thanks to all friends who are willing to help out in this situation with the sale restrictions.

MOCO is making a stupid move with this and charges european bikers with three or sometimes four times higher prices for the same part in comparison to USA prices.

But I buy parts where I WANT!!!!!

It is time to show MOCO that the customer is the BOSS, we decide on our own where we spend our money!!!

Aero8

[ice6900]

We can get some great deals on Cars in Switzerland at the moment, the Swiss franc is very strong against the dollar and the Euro.

Currently 1$ = 0.89 chf  or 1 chf = 1.12 $

Most of the major car dealers are offering normal discount plus a  "Euro Bonus" of 2000 chf or more on new vehicles, making the second hand car market difficult.

[ThunderElectraCVO]

Add me to the list that will help ANY fellow Harley owner get parts. I buy most everything at 20% off list and will gladly re-ship to a site member for postage. The little bit of time and fuel it will cost me will be charged to friendship! Make sure you know exactly what you want, as I will forward the package unopened. Shoot me a PM if I can help. Jimmy

This post will not be forgotten.
Thank you.
 

[kraut]

there are many ways to detour - you may consider borderlinx for instance. And before anybody suspects that's a scammer: it's not. Borderlinx is a subsidiary of Deutsche Post (of DHL to be precise) and most legitimate 

[MC88]

www.myus.com

This is a great service set up to provide us with a US address and receive and ship our parts etc to us anywhere in the world.

For $60 a year is all it costs , they have great rates with DHL and Fedex, I recently had a King Tour Pack sent to me for $200 shipping ... A bargain since it weighed 38 pounds and was in a big box.

We will have to see how long it takes for them to try to stop this loophole from working ...

[Spiderman]

Thanks to all friends who are willing to help out in this situation with the sale restrictions.

MOCO is making a stupid move with this and charges european bikers with three or sometimes four times higher prices for the same part in comparison to USA prices.

But I buy parts where I WANT!!!!!

It is time to show MOCO that the customer is the BOSS, we decide on our own where we spend our money!!!

Aero8

Just a guess, but my take on this would be that the licensed H-D dealerships (importers) in countries outside the USA have put pressure on H-D to enact/enforce this. They are paying shipping, import feees, tariffs etc and cannot compete with USA based on-line mail order houses. WOW, stop and think of that. Foreign countries asking the US for protection against a domestic (USA) based business. And it looks like we're doing it. As Larry the Cable Guy loves to say - - - "Only  in America "

B B

[spydglide]

Just might be stuck buying in Canada. I have looked through the catalogue( paper and on both the US & CDN site) and have not found HD's own version of KY Jelly...if I use a brand other than their's to 'ease the initial purchase' , does that mean my Canadian warranty is invalid?

[bandit]

I have to agree to ice6900 and kraut: It wont get any better with the time!  

for the last 2 years, us-hd-dealers also had problems to ship to an address,
different from the credit-card-holder. Then they had to stop giving discount,
now they have to stop selling at all. I thought their business is to sell the stuff
they are dealing with. I don't know where this is heading to, but I'm very thankfull
to the offer of Twolanerider, that he will help us out!!!!  

[bandit]

The MoCo is not the only company with this disease.
I attached an article from last sunday, about the same
headlines:

For those you would like to read german  , I attached the article.

To make it short: converse boots in the us about 40$, here in switzerland
between 129 - 139.- Sfr depending on color. 1$ is about 0.9 Sfr at the
moment. The company doing the import for D.A.CH (Germany, Austria,
Switzerland) improved their profit before tax nearlly 10 times.
2004 it was 2.5 million Euro, in 2009 21.9 million Euro. The value of goods
at custom for this boots are 9.02$.

[aero8]

@Bandit
Thanks alot for this very interesting article.

There is hope that now all realise that we pay way to much for different consumer articles........especially HD parts.

There are dozens of exemples that we pay four times to much here in Europe for MOCO parts. Not only parts also the motorcycles are much more expensive ...it is not fair and there is no reason to do so.

It has NOTHING to do with tax or transport.......it is just to maximise their profits.

M3 Convertible costs in the USA( 67550 dollars), it is produced in GERMANY and SHIPPED over to the USA!!!
M3 Convertible in Switzerland costs 131500 dollars........can someone explain me this...tax, transport???
The cars for the USA have even a better spec, but cots the half of what we pay here in Germany or Switzerland.

MOCO should think about what they are doing and as stated in the article this market restriction will fall back to MOCO.....lets see and wait!

Aero8

[Paul1]

Now that Harley have stopped their dealers selling on the Internet outside the US, we are forced to pay over inflated dealer prices here in the UK, sometimes 2x the price you guys pay ! Would anyone be prepared to purchase in the US & ship over to the UK, obviously all costs inc purchase price & shipping as well as your costs would be paid for in advance. Just putting it out there for discussion/comments.

[Twolanerider]

Lake Shore Harley still mentions international shipping on their website ( www.lshd1.com ).

[ice6900]

As MOCO monitors this site, it might be best to keep this info between us, pm`s please

[Wayne G]

Heads up for all the international members
I got a email from Lake Shore HD a major internet parts source saying;

AFTER JULY 10th 2011

No Sales to International Credit Cards
-or- International PayPal Accounts

No sales through Freight Forwarders

USA Only Sales as per Harley-Davidson Policy
for their USA Dealers

This Does Not Include our USA Service Persons
at APO/AEO addresses via USPS Delivery

[Paul1]

Still time to make an order then ! Does anyone know if the US style smoked rear taillights on the 2011SG flash red or Amber ?

[aero8]

Dear Paul1

They flash RED.

Aero8

[skboy]

They do flash red, I believe you can get amber. Our Canadian bikes came with amber which IMO is fairly stale. Placed my order last night for some smoked red ones. Beware a lot of places are already shutting down international orders. so don't wait to long.

[Paul1]

Cheers for that info, does anyone know if they are different part numbers for the Amber flashing ? or do you just specify Amber when ordering ? Problem in the UK is that it is not legal to have red flashing indicators.

[Paul1]

They do flash red, I believe you can get amber. Our Canadian bikes came with amber which IMO is fairly stale. Placed my order last night for some smoked red ones. Beware a lot of places are already shutting down international orders. so don't wait to long.

Skyboy did you order from Lake Shore or somewhere else ? Have sent them an email but no response yet ! Just got a quote from UK dealer & they want equivalent of $700 US, maybe the ones they ship to their dealers in UK are lined with gold........

[ice6900]

What did I tell ya all!      SHUT THE FACK UP ABOUT WHO WILL!!

From an email received today

LSHD1 TO STOP ALL INTERNATIONAL ORDERS
(OVERSEAS ORDERS)


We are sorry to announce that after 07/10/11
we will no longer be taking International
Orders for Overseas Sales as per H-D Factory's
New Policy effective August 1, 2011

[skboy]

Yes I ordered these from lake shore. I would suspect the amber ones use a different part number. I can't give you that because I have no clue what it is. $700! Gezz these guys are getting crazy. My quote in can $ was $270 bucks each, you can just imagine where I told them to go.

[Paul1]

I really don't think this post had anything to do with the email you received today.

[glenpick]

Have bought up recently to beat the deadline as it affects us in Australia too. Bought all the CVO SG accessories I could think i'd ever want + a heap of jackets & shirts - all at 40 - 50% less than the stealers here.

I'll still be utilising the services of US based good folk to bring in my goodies from time to time.

This ban will stop nothing. It will force many to buy non genuine Harley items in the future - you loose HD!

[bandit]

MoCo restrict the sales, but take good money,
look at the the price-tag in the pic.

[resident Alien]

That price converts to around $60,000, the same advert on the HD USA website says it starts at $35,999 ..........it must have flown 1st class to Switzerland

[Grizzly]

$60,000.00!

And I thought prices were high in Canada.

[grc]

That price converts to around $60,000, the same advert on the HD USA website says it starts at $35,999 ..........it must have flown 1st class to Switzerland

Harley probably uses real gold leaf in the paint for the Swiss models.  Thus the slightly higher price.

Should we assume Europe has some severe import duties, or should we assume Harley and the distributor are just really really greedy?


Jerry

[ice6900]

Greedy yes, plus to many middle men taking a cut

[kraut]

who should be those middle men?

The distributor is 100% H-D owned.

[warwick]

Bad news. HD tightens the reins to protect (give monopoly to) overseas authorized dealers . US-based sellers (non-dealers and dealers alike) are no longer permitted to sell directly to end-customers outside USA (unless you are a US military or have an APO address).   

So far M&M Cyles and Zanotti have implemented this new policy.

Meaning European bike owners are gonna be charged triple US retail prices on all accessories from now on.

 

 

[Twolanerider]

Not new news.  Restriction was announced from Mother Harley back in late May or early June.

[kraut]

old story indeed. There are some helpfull hints in that old thread how to still order from US dealers 

[Eqcons]

Bad news. HD tightens the reins to protect (give monopoly to) overseas authorized dealers . US-based sellers (non-dealers and dealers alike) are no longer permitted to sell directly to end-customers outside USA (unless you are a US military or have an APO address).   

So far M&M Cyles and Zanotti have implemented this new policy.

Meaning European bike owners are gonna be charged triple US retail prices on all accessories from now on.

 

 

As others have said, not new news, but not really an obstacle. 

However, I'd love to see how HD could prevent the "non-dealers" you mention from selling to whoever they like!

Jim

[North Star]

Sounds like a small business opportunity for someone in the US to buy HD parts (as an individual) and mark them up slightly to ship out to Europe and abroad. You could make a profit, and the customer would still be paying much less than they would in Europe.

[Grizzly]

Sounds like a small business opportunity for someone in the US to buy HD parts (as an individual) and mark them up slightly to ship out to Europe and abroad. You could make a profit, and the customer would still be paying much less than they would in Europe.

Heck even with the markups in Canada you could still save our friends from over the pond a tiddy some, and make money doing it!

[warwick]

However, I'd love to see how HD could prevent the "non-dealers" you mention from selling to whoever they like!

Jim

A non-dealer told me he no longer gets access to OEM parts. So  he has nothing to sell to whoever he likes.
warwick

[kraut]

look at this thread of yesterday

[Chains]

Sounds like a small business opportunity for someone in the US to buy HD parts (as an individual) and mark them up slightly to ship out to Europe and abroad. You could make a profit, and the customer would still be paying much less than they would in Europe.

I have done that in the past for not only motorcycle parts but car parts as well.

[North Georgia Hawg]

A non-dealer told me he no longer gets access to OEM parts. So  he has nothing to sell to whoever he likes.
warwick

I got an e-mail a few weeks ago from M and M Cycles (Mom and Pop) that they can no longer sell Genuine H-D P&A AT ALL... this blows. I've bought a lot of stuff from them. I've also bought a lot of stuff at 20% from Surdyke via their web site... I wonder if THAT will now cease as well...

[dayne66]

I'm glad I live close enough to the US border to poick up a 'load' once in a while. MSRP is bad enough.....5% over was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

[warwick]

I got an e-mail a few weeks ago from M and M Cycles (Mom and Pop) that they can no longer sell Genuine H-D P&A AT ALL... this blows. I've bought a lot of stuff from them. I've also bought a lot of stuff at 20% from Surdyke via their web site... I wonder if THAT will now cease as well...

Re Surdyke, here is FAQ copied from their website:

Question: Do you Ship outside the United States?

Answer:  Surdyke.com does not ship any items outside the United States, furthermore, Surdyke.com will not sell parts to anyone who plans to ship these said parts outside the United States.

 

[MUFFMAN]

 US HD dealers have to include the vin # of the motorcycle to Harley to the MO Co when an order is placed to ensure the order is not from a sub dealer planning to resell/send these parts elsewhere.Ran into this when I  placed a large order recently.

[Hawg]

I wonder how many Genuine parts sales are lost now?  I can already see my bank account growing due to this. 

[ice6900]

I wonder how many Genuine parts sales are lost now?  I can already see my bank account growing due to this. 

Mine too! I have bought my last HARLEY DAVIDSON in 2007, dont know if my feeling will weaken in the future but only if the quality and reliability improves

[spydglide]

Mine too! I have bought my last HARLEY DAVIDSON in 2007, dont know if my feeling will weaken in the future but only if the quality and reliability improves

The quarter they just reported was not good.  They fell from double-diget growth the two previous quarters in sales.  Guess we're not the only ones that are not seeing the love from the MoCo.  spyder

[North Georgia Hawg]

The quarter they just reported was not good.  They fell from double-diget growth the two previous quarters in sales.  Guess we're not the only ones that are not seeing the love from the MoCo.  spyder

Well, the MoCo is a business, and I can't blame them for looking out after their own interests. Any business is primarily responsible to the residual owners - the stockholders - and if I were a HOG stock owner (I'm not), I would expect them to do everything they could to protect my investment in the company, and make it grow. Unfortunately, all too often this means that the customers end up being the losers. I still like the MoCo a LOT better than I do AT&T, though!

[Grizzly]

Each new bike is imported into Canada at just over 50 cents on the dollar while the executives at Deeley (Harley) Canada force Canadians to pay inflated prices. These same execs continue to receive their huge salaries and extravagant bonuses. Sadly the Motor Company has become very good at biting the hands the feed them.

Come on now Egultrac, let's be fair...  

Current pricing
2012 SE Ultra US MSRP - $37,249  CND MSRP $40,869
and at the other end of the scale
2012 Sportster Super Low US MSRP - $7,999  CND MSRP $8,779

If it really was 50 cents on the dollar as you say, the CND $ would be much higher.

Having said that, I hear what you're saying though... With the Canadian dollar running ABOVE par for many months now, we all wonder why the gap is still so much as compared to the US price.  

[kraut]

there used to be many offers for genuine H-D leathers on the Chinese Wholesale website DHGate.com - most of them have disappeared in the last couple of days, no listings to be found there any more under "Harley-Davidson" and just one seller left under "H-D".

It seems the MoCo enforces their new policy even with their Chinese producers ...

[warwick]

Placed an eBay  bid on a European version of a Battery Tender. Seller was US dealer X. He sent me an ebay message excusing himself saying he was not allowed to sell overseas. He also added that he was not very happy with MoCo policy as internet sales of P&A was good business. Shortly after the listed part was removed from eBay.

My current bike (2011 FLHX) will definitely be my last one. DO YOU HEAR ME, MILWAUKEE!!.
Most accessories were bought via internet from US dealers just in time before HD policy was enfoced.

With a current shop floor price of USD 63 000 for a new FLHX I simply cannot afford to buy accessories at inflated prices (300% higher than US MSRP) from local dealer any more. (BTW if you want a SE FLHX please add another USD 20 000. )

 

[kraut]

... a current shop floor price of USD 63 000 for a new FLHX ...

that makes Norway the most expensive place for Harleys I've heard of 

[North Georgia Hawg]

Placed an eBay  bid on a European version of a Battery Tender. Seller was US dealer X. He sent me an ebay message excusing himself saying he was not allowed to sell overseas. He also added that he was not very happy with MoCo policy as internet sales of P&A was good business. Shortly after the listed part was removed from eBay.

My current bike (2011 FLHX) will definitely be my last one. DO YOU HEAR ME, MILWAUKEE!!.
Most accessories were bought via internet from US dealers just in time before HD policy was enfoced.

With a current shop floor price of USD 63 000 for a new FLHX I simply cannot afford to buy accessories at inflated prices (300% higher than US MSRP) from local dealer any more. (BTW if you want a SE FLHX please add another USD 20 000. )

 

That's just INSANE...

[bandit]

that makes Norway the most expensive place for Harleys I've heard of  

Switzerland will beat that!  

actual exchange-rate 1Sfr = 1.3894 Doller (Source http://de.finance.yahoo.com/waehrungen/waehrungsrechner/#from=EUR;to=USD;amt=1)



2012 SE Ultra ElectraGlide

MSRP USA = 37249 $
MSRP Switzerland = 51000 Sfr = 70859.4 $.

2012 Sporster Super Low

MSRP USA =7999 $
MSRP Switzerland = 11500 Sfr = 15978.1 $.

I was glad to buy my FLTRSE3 at a time the dollar had a far better rate against the Swiss Franc.

[Eagle Eye]

there used to be many offers for genuine H-D leathers on the Chinese Wholesale website DHGate.com - most of them have disappeared in the last couple of days, no listings to be found there any more under "Harley-Davidson" and just one seller left under "H-D".

It seems the MoCo enforces their new policy even with their Chinese producers ...

Crafty (or whatever your choice words may be) Chinese took the words "Harley Davidson" out of the title of the gear, but are still selling it.
http://www.dhgate.com/motorcycle-jackets-men-s-classic-cruiser/p-ff8080812f5756ce012f70ffcb207343.html

[ice6900]

Finally  somebody came up with the idea of a "Swiss Premium Package" up to 4250chf discount on the top models because of the strong exchange rates!   

But I`m still not getting my dough out of my wallet for the chit quality bikes!

[Eqcons]

that makes Norway the most expensive place for Harleys I've heard of 

India is higher!

[kraut]

China btw seems to be an especially nice place to buy a Harley too: click 

[charles05663]

The tragic thing about all of this is that the US government has opened all our markets to low cost imports via NAFT and GATT.  The countries that export these low cost goods impose huge tariffs on our goods when imported into their countries.

[kraut]

@Charles:

you should not complain  

The USA are still the third biggest export nation of the world and have tremendously profited from free trade since WW II:

"Since the end of World War II, in part due to industrial supremacy and the onset of the Cold War, the U.S. government has become one of the most consistent proponents of reduced tariff barriers and free trade ..." (url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade#The_United_States_and_free_trade]out of wikipedia about free trade[/url])

Free trade may no longer be so much in favour for the US industry as it used to be - but never forget it was the USA who sent Commodore Perry to open up Japan for American trade by force if neccessary  

[Gank]

The tragic thing about all of this is that the US government has opened all our markets to low cost imports via NAFT and GATT.  The countries that export these low cost goods impose huge tariffs on our goods when imported into their countries.

Maybe GATT, but NAFT has the majority of trade between Canada and the USA... and I would think that having plants offering jobs in Mexico would save you money as the locals might stay and not visit you

[bandit]

The Swiss WEKO (Wettbewerbskommission ~ market competition commission) is investigating
against HD Swiss. The reason is the currency difference is not going to the customer and
you can't import bikes from other european countries. Sorry but the article is in german:

http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/wirtschaft/aktuell/vorabklaerung_gegen_harley-davidson_1.14316491.html

[Eqcons]

Excellent news!