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Author Topic: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales  (Read 16013 times)

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JCZ

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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2012, 06:26:07 PM »

When are you guys gonna stop writing about all this on the forum?
I guess you wont be happy until every Stealer is confined to selling in there designated neighbourhood @ full market price!



WE ALL KNOW THIS FORUM IS MONITORED BY THOSE WHO WANT TO SCREW YOUR A$$E$ FOR TOP $

No need to worry.....you can buy aftermarket parts, American made, better quality for less money, anyway!  But when they read this I don't think it (or anything else on this forum) will be a big surprise to them. :P
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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2012, 08:13:03 PM »

I just called St. Paul HD and talked to a gentleman in the internet sales dept.  He said the whole internet sales dept. is being laid off and their last day is 3/30.  Sad situation for them, sad for the customers, etc.

So everybody will have to start paying full retail or buying aftermarket........which is most likely made in USA, anyway!

So, here we are in a National recession and this anti-business and anti-trade decision was made by MoCo causing the layoff of workers and possibly the eventual loss of a business.  Nice way to stimulate the economy.  Many of those employees most likely ride...do you think they're going to want to keep Harleys after this?  Where's the news media?  If this is happening at Lakeshore, it must be replecated elsewhere.
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tazmun

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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2012, 09:13:55 PM »

No body seems to get the way business runs!!! Look at banking, big business....................
PROFITS FOR THE STOCK HOLDERS!!!!
BONUSES FOR THE BIG WIGS!!!!!!

The LEADERS of Harley-Davidson want to thank all those who continue to by our product!!!

Employees who build them!!!! They are replaceable at much lower wages!!!!!!!

Oh need I say BIG OIL!
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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2012, 10:19:08 PM »

This is HD Corporate's way to balance the motorcycle trade deficit.

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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2012, 10:54:48 PM »


Similar actions are being taken (and hotly debated) in the consumer electronics business these days.  We used to have a retail pricing system in widespread use called MAP, or Minimum Advertised Price.  The corporations would set a MAP for their products, and the retailers could not advertise a lower price.  If they did, and got caught, they could lose various incentive payments from the manufacturer for instance.  But the retailer still retained the right to sell the product for whatever price he wanted.

Companies like Apple and Bose went a different way, and they came up with a system commonly called UPP, or Unilateral Pricing Policy.  This one works like this:  the manufacturer determines the minimum retail price, and if a retailer is caught selling below that price the manufacturer can refuse to sell that retailer any more product.  Instant loss of product will tend to get most retailers to toe the line.  This is the system that many of us, including me, thought was illegal under Federal laws and regulations.   Well, SURPRISE SURPRISE.  Somewhere along the way, probably when a lot of other financial rules and regulations were being traded away to the big shots and corporations, the rules changed.  Now this sort of price fixing is legal, and retailers no longer have the right with to set their own prices when dealing with UPP manufacturer's or distributors.  And I'm getting the impression that this is the type of pricing policy that H-D is embracing.  Just one more in a long line of reasons why I won't be buying any more of their crap.

There is currently a lot of conversation going on about this UPP pricing regarding a couple big names in the HDTV industry.  It seems Samsung and Sony have announced UPP pricing on their high end HDTV's starting in April.  They claim they are doing so to protect the brick and mortar stores from the internet sellers.  Sounds a bit like the BS coming out of Milwaukee, but at least with the consumer electronics folks you can see where it's become common for people to go to the retail stores to scope out the various models, pick the brains of the sales associates in those places where they still have knowledgeable folks, and then go home and find the lowest price at some online only store.  I don't see that happening with a Harley, however.  First, where you going to find a knowledgeable sales person to pick their brain?  And you can't buy the actual bikes online, just the parts and accessories.

Anyhow, I expect the Samsung and Sony experiment to fail since there are plenty of other excellent alternatives, like LG, that aren't following their lead on the pricing deal.  If I can buy a top of the line LG for $800 less than the price controlled Samsung for instance, I have to believe Samsung will lose a significant number of sales.  Apple gets away with this kind of pricing because of the cult following.  And maybe that same kind of cult following will let Harley get away with it for awhile.  But the time will come when their patents expire and the aftermarket can crank out all sorts of better parts for lower prices, just like they did with the earlier models. 


JMHO - Jerry
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Wild Card

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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2012, 10:03:28 AM »

Similar actions are being taken (and hotly debated) in the consumer electronics business these days.  We used to have a retail pricing system in widespread use called MAP, or Minimum Advertised Price.  The corporations would set a MAP for their products, and the retailers could not advertise a lower price.  If they did, and got caught, they could lose various incentive payments from the manufacturer for instance.  But the retailer still retained the right to sell the product for whatever price he wanted.

Companies like Apple and Bose went a different way, and they came up with a system commonly called UPP, or Unilateral Pricing Policy.  This one works like this:  the manufacturer determines the minimum retail price, and if a retailer is caught selling below that price the manufacturer can refuse to sell that retailer any more product.  Instant loss of product will tend to get most retailers to toe the line.  This is the system that many of us, including me, thought was illegal under Federal laws and regulations.   Well, SURPRISE SURPRISE.  Somewhere along the way, probably when a lot of other financial rules and regulations were being traded away to the big shots and corporations, the rules changed.  Now this sort of price fixing is legal, and retailers no longer have the right with to set their own prices when dealing with UPP manufacturer's or distributors.  And I'm getting the impression that this is the type of pricing policy that H-D is embracing.  Just one more in a long line of reasons why I won't be buying any more of their crap.

There is currently a lot of conversation going on about this UPP pricing regarding a couple big names in the HDTV industry.  It seems Samsung and Sony have announced UPP pricing on their high end HDTV's starting in April.  They claim they are doing so to protect the brick and mortar stores from the internet sellers.  Sounds a bit like the BS coming out of Milwaukee, but at least with the consumer electronics folks you can see where it's become common for people to go to the retail stores to scope out the various models, pick the brains of the sales associates in those places where they still have knowledgeable folks, and then go home and find the lowest price at some online only store.  I don't see that happening with a Harley, however.  First, where you going to find a knowledgeable sales person to pick their brain?  And you can't buy the actual bikes online, just the parts and accessories.

Anyhow, I expect the Samsung and Sony experiment to fail since there are plenty of other excellent alternatives, like LG, that aren't following their lead on the pricing deal.  If I can buy a top of the line LG for $800 less than the price controlled Samsung for instance, I have to believe Samsung will lose a significant number of sales.  Apple gets away with this kind of pricing because of the cult following.  And maybe that same kind of cult following will let Harley get away with it for awhile.  But the time will come when their patents expire and the aftermarket can crank out all sorts of better parts for lower prices, just like they did with the earlier models.  


JMHO - Jerry

That's all fine and well, but I think you're applying the wrong legal precedent in this situation.  The UPP applies only within the US and it's not evident that HD is engaging in that (seeing as I just ordered a ton of Harley parts from Lake Shore Harley in IL a few days ago and got the 20% discount).  If the discounts suddenly ended within the US, then yes, the UPP may be the reason.

This St. Paul case involved Mother HD attempting to dissuade the practice of grey market sales within its dealer network.  The jobs that are being lost in the U.S. because of this are actually netting against the jobs that would have been lost when these european dealers closed due to this practice.  Yeah, yeah, I know you all think America is number one and all jobs should stay in America, but ask the european riders how they would feel if they suddenly had no authorized dealer to shoot the sh*t at, get serviced, meet up with their HOG chapter, etc...  So, in effect, they are not screwing us, they are protecting their foreign dealers.  How they price their product in these other markets, is a whole other topic (which very well may be considered screwing the european rider).

Sure, it sucks that they can't get a cheaper part because their market has been deemed to bear a higher price. Most manufacturers have their way of dealing with this.  For instance, try to save yourself a few bucks and buy a Rolex in India then get it serviced here; that warranty won't be honored.  This is why these companies have different product codes that are specific to the region they are sold in.  

« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 10:06:32 AM by Wild Card »
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ice6900

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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2012, 01:30:33 PM »

No need to worry.....you can buy aftermarket parts, American made, better quality for less money, anyway!  But when they read this I don't think it (or anything else on this forum) will be a big surprise to them. :P

My point was that every time somebody mentions this or that dealer giving %discount, this is duly noted by the Moco spies. Mark my words slowly all of the discounting will be curtailed.
I totally agree JC, I can and do buy better quality aftermarket parts for better quality and less money!
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kraut

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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2012, 02:36:20 AM »

@Nigel:

the MoCo doesn't need to watch this forum for this sort of information. The other dealers and the district reps will know even earlier than we do and internet offers are under their close watch worldwide anyway.
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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2012, 06:30:00 AM »

Seems to me that they are focused on different markets for thier products away from the saturated norms.
Service is poor, parts are astronomical, and yes there is an alternative supply of good (often better) quality fair priced add ons and service parts.

New Triumph looks good !!!!!
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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2012, 09:43:26 AM »

New Triumph looks good !!!!!

Good luck with that dealer network!  And c'mon, nothing looks as good as our Springers!!!   :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2012, 10:29:54 AM »

the case got formally closed yesterday. I would like to know what Harley paid to silence Giannetti ...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 10:51:39 AM by kraut »
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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2012, 03:01:32 PM »

More interesting to me is how long it will take before his franchise is gone bye bye.
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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2012, 04:11:38 PM »

More interesting to me is how long it will take before his franchise is gone bye bye.

Well, they're by far the largest dealer in the Twin Cities with two relatively new store locations so if the MoCo decided to punish them I would be surprised. This is said with prejudice as they are my home dealer for sales and service and a good one at that.
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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2012, 09:26:47 PM »

St. Paul Harley-Davidson and the Motor Co. have settled a lawsuit over dealers selling official Harley-Davidson goods using third-party websites like eBay and Amazon.com. And although the parties aren't yet talking, it doesn't look like it went the dealer's way.

Terms of the settlement were not disclosed, other than a judge’s April 11 dismissal order stating that both parties would handle their own legal fees. The dismissal is “with prejudice,” meaning the parties cannot re-file the case.

Attorney Douglas Boettge, who represented St. Paul Harley-Davidson in the lawsuit, confirmed the settlement. Dealer principal Tom Giannetti and attorneys for the Motor Co. did not immediately return calls seeking comments.

Although the terms of the settlement are under wraps, it doesn’t look like it went well for St. Paul Harley-Davidson. The dealership’s eBay store now carries the following disclaimer:

“Thank you for your interest in St. Paul Harley-Davidson®. Due to recent internet sales policy changes with Harley-Davidson Motor Company, we are no longer able to accept third party website transactions for any of our products. We will continue to honor our thirty (30) day return and exchange policy from the date of your purchase’s receipt. Please contact us directly at esales@stpaulhd.com for specific instructions regarding exchanges and returns. We thank you for your past business and support, and appreciate your understanding.”

Dealernews was unable to find a listing for St. Paul Harley-Davidson as a seller on Amazon.com.

The dealership sued The Motor Co. last November, claiming the OEM's restrictions on foreign sales by U.S. dealers and sales through third-party websites are unfair, and undercut dealer profits.

St. Paul Harley-Davidson owner Tom Giannetti alleged in the complaint that new restrictions on PG&A sales “would deprive [St. Paul Harley-Davidson] of literally millions of dollars of annual revenues, thereby jeopardizing its ability to remain in business.” He claims the dealership made $8 million a year in revenue from online and foreign sales from 2008 through 2010.

According to the lawsuit, the OEM notified U.S. dealers that, starting Aug. 1, 2011, they would no longer be able to sell Harley-Davidson parts and accessories to any customer outside the United States. The lawsuit said that starting Jan. 1, 2012, U.S. dealers may not sell new parts or accessories on third-party websites. The dealer claimed that violated his franchise agreement.

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Re: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales
« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2012, 11:52:31 PM »

Idiots in my opinion. It's like suing your wife and then expect to live happily ever after.

I give them 3-5 ( years ) then they will no Longer be a HD dealer. Or sold so a new owner can start fresh.

This guy severly burned himself in the market place. I hope he can afford it.

I am not taking sides but business is business.
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