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Author Topic: Lifter failure?  (Read 9522 times)

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longlast

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Lifter failure?
« on: November 05, 2019, 08:41:57 AM »

 Not sure what to do. 

I've got 26,500ish on my 07 Ultra  and in July of 2017 I did an up grade doing the work myself (plus a lot of help from the  generous sharing of knowledge from you boys on this site) at the time i didn't change the cam chain tensioners which is what I'm doing now, pic of inner and outer.

Now my problem is not with the tensioners but about week ago I developed a high rpm ticking I starts as I get up to 4000rpm after 4 it becomes much louder.  When I change up and  I'm in top gear and the rpm drops off the ticking is gone.

I'm thinking a lifter is failing,  they're S&S Cycle High Performance Lifters Tappets Twin Cam Harley 1999-17  they got about 8500 miles on them.  I also installed rocker lockers thought maybe something went wrong with those but they look pretty good.
There's no excessive wear on the rocker arms to valve stems,  cam lobes have no excessive markings.

From what I've described would it be fair to say it's a lifter or should I look at at something else that my be at fault?

Any ideas on how to check if it's a lifter ? I tried to push on them but can't move any of them they're filled with oil but like I said it's a mid high rpm fault.

I got the S&S lifters from USA V TWIN PERFORMANCE. What's S&S like for replacement of flailed components? 

Cheers for any advice
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J.D.

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2019, 09:22:13 AM »

If the noise was not there previously and now it is then you have reason for concern.

I'm not a proponent of random parts swapping but this does sound like a lifter issue.

If you have adjustable pushrods, a lifter swap is pretty easy and inexpensive.

I would do the lifters and see what happens.
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longlast

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2019, 09:48:38 AM »

If the noise was not there previously and now it is then you have reason for concern.

I'm not a proponent of random parts swapping but this does sound like a lifter issue.

If you have adjustable pushrods, a lifter swap is pretty easy and inexpensive.

I would do the lifters and see what happens.

I've got the bike pulled down now I was only going to check/replace the tensioners but this other issues started last week.
Unfortunately I didn't put adjustable pushrods in last time. So I had to get to the cams the long way round.  Will be installing them

It's only been 8500 miles,  I've got intouch with S&S and waiting to hear back from them.
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J.D.

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2019, 09:55:44 AM »

Those tensioners are fine.  It's typical to see that wear pattern.  When the roller part of the chain begins to ride on the tensioners the wear essentially stops.

The clatter you describe can be due to a lifter plunger sticking or not holding pressure at RPM.
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longlast

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2019, 12:07:32 PM »

I contacted S&S technical support this is their reply

If you are having this issue in low gears only the problem is not the tappet. the tappet has no way of telling what gear your in. if tt were the tappet it would do it under any load and at the same RPM. also if the tappet were failing it would clatter all the time not just from time to time. i suspect you have other issues going on. 

Think they misunderstood me,  the rapid tapping is in all gears when the rpm reaches 4000 and over rpm nothing in 6th gear because I not going to hit 4000rpm in 6th gear.

Is it not so that a tappet can function normally under light load but begin to fail as the load increases

Those tensioners are fine.  It's typical to see that wear pattern.  When the roller part of the chain begins to ride on the tensioners the wear essentially stops.

The clatter you describe can be due to a lifter plunger sticking or not holding pressure at RPM.

I don't know what else it could be that's going on. 

It's like what you would hear on a car that has manual adjusting tappets and just one was out of adjustment then rev up the motor over 4000rpm you would hear a fast rapid tapping,...it's a  distinctive sound,.....that's what I'm hearing at the 4000rpm range
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hd-dude

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2019, 12:33:05 PM »

Since you have the tensioners out, replace them! Your noise could also be piston related. Have you looked inside the barrels with a scope? What cams are you running?

longlast

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2019, 01:35:46 PM »

Since you have the tensioners out, replace them! Your noise could also be piston related. Have you looked inside the barrels with a scope? What cams are you running?

No don't have a scope,  cams are stock 255.  I did think of piston slap when I first started hearing it kind of dismissed the lifters as they're not very old but then thinking a piston is more of a light knocking rather than the ticking sound I'm hearing that has brought me to the valve train.

I will be changing the tensioners also I'll be installing the screamin eagle Premium Tapered Quick Install Adjustable Pushrods
Part#18404-8
I suspect my only option is to get another set of lifters .
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TorqueInc

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2019, 04:08:06 PM »

No don't have a scope,  cams are stock 255.  I did think of piston slap when I first started hearing it kind of dismissed the lifters as they're not very old but then thinking a piston is more of a light knocking rather than the ticking sound I'm hearing that has brought me to the valve train.

I will be changing the tensioners also I'll be installing the screamin eagle Premium Tapered Quick Install Adjustable Pushrods
Part#18404-8
I suspect my only option is to get another set of lifters .
What do the lifters look like ?
If the rollers roll smoothly......aren't frosted bad
Some pushrod adjustment might clear up the tapping issue
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longlast

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2019, 05:42:10 PM »

Lifters look like new rollers are shiny smooth cams the same a little scuffing on the walls of the lifters nothing major.


That's a good suggestion. 

I'd thought of putting the old stock lifters back in that i exchanged there wasn't anything wrong with them I just upgraded.
If I put the old once back in and that cures the problem. Then it'll be no problem in putting in another new set with the quicky rods
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Priz

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2019, 06:22:14 PM »

 08 SERK approaching 30k here, so I'm wanting to see what's happening inside the motor as well. I have a hard time finding parts recommended for a 110 motor when looking for lifters. Many of the lifter posts I'm reading here are older threads. Some of the better brands from back in the day have quality issues now days, so...   

Is S&S still the recommended quality upgrade for lifters?
What brand adjustable pushrods do you guys recommend?
What's a good Cam bearing to install?
Just go to Harley for the cam tensioner shoes?
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J.D.

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2019, 06:35:02 PM »

S&S lifters are good.  Same Delphi lifters as the old MoCo "B" lifters.

SE tapered pushrods are as good as any.  Whatever you choose be sure to know the adjustment thread size to set the preload correctly.

Koyo/Torrington/Timken inner bearing (uncaged full roller).
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longlast

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2019, 10:22:56 PM »

08 SERK approaching 30k here, so I'm wanting to see what's happening inside the motor as well. I have a hard time finding parts recommended for a 110 motor when looking for lifters. Many of the lifter posts I'm reading here are older threads. Some of the better brands from back in the day have quality issues now days, so...   

Is S&S still the recommended quality upgrade for lifters?
What brand adjustable pushrods do you guys recommend?
What's a good Cam bearing to install?
Just go to Harley for the cam tensioner shoes?



https://www.ebay.com/itm/S-S-Cycle-Tappet-Set-Lifter-4-Lifters-Harley-Big-Twin-Cam-Sportster-1999-2017/133134916999?fits=Make%3AHarley-Davidson&epid=655003032&hash=item1eff759d87:g:IqwAAOSwVLVdSLtV


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Twin-Power-Replacement-Timing-Chain-Tensioner-Shoes-07-17-Harley-Big-Twin-Cam-96/362538841374?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160811114145%26meid%3Dee78cd42b183465e9d44080626bbec3a%26pid%3D100667%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D172421583687%26itm%3D362538841374%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2334524&_trksid=p2334524.c100667.m2042

https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/screamin-eagle-premium-tapered-quick-install-adjustable-pushrods-18404-08#
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Twolanerider

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longlast

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2019, 04:12:40 AM »

Have seen those Johnson lifters but haven't read anything on them.
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longlast

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Re: Lifter failure?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2019, 04:33:07 AM »

A bit of info on Johnson Lifters


WHAT MAKES THE HYLIFT-JOHNSON LIFTERS SUPERIOR TO OTHERS?
Hylift-Johnson lifters for Harley Davidson.
The original Harley Davidson Hylift-Johnson lifters are superior because they
have better bleed down specification for better valve lash control and higher
oil output capacity delivery for the valves. This in turn provides better
lubrication and cooling.
Q: Why does Harley Davidson no longer use Hylift-Johnson lifters, which were
originally designed for Harley Davidson?
A: Cost cutting measure. From 1998-2002 Hylift-Johnson lifters were O.E
part. In this time frame Harleys did not suffer from lifter associated problems.
2002 onwards Delphi brand units were used. They were unable to “copy” the
Hylift-Johnson internals (patented).
"From 1999 - 2001, Johnson-Hylift supplied lifters to Harley-Davidson...
Johnson-Hylift designed and produced a special piston and valve body
to work across the temp ranges and varying oil psi typically encountered
on an air-cooled engine such as the Harley. Since late 2001, HD has used
Delphi brand hydraulic lifters. That's why there was a Harley p/n change
from 18538-99 to 18538-99A and now 18538-99B. However, Delphi did not
use a 0.655" hi-volume / hi-pressure plunger piston and valve body
specifically designed for Harley as found in the Johnson-Hylift lifters.
Instead, Delphi essentially used a small block Chevy lifter. The main
difference is the Delphi lifter tries to boost the hydraulic psi by decreasing
the piston diameter, but this leads to a smaller high pressure oil reservoir.
The volume is too small and allows the lifter to clatter. That may be why
so many of the late model Twin-Cam bikes are noisy. After doing some
research AMS learned these Delphi version 18538-99B lifters are made too
small to stand up to Harley's heavy valve spring pressure. The oil reservoir
inside the lifter is too small. It doesn't hold enough oil to let the lifter bleed
off under normal use and still have a cushion of compressed oil to take up
valve train slack. Note: ALL lifters bleed off during operation and even
more-so when the bikes sits, engine off. "
Q: What other well known brands use Hylift-Johnson lifters?
A: S&S Cycle do! Excerpt from S&S Cycle website below.
“S&S offers high performance tappets for 1999-up Harley-Davidson® Twin Cam 88® and
Twin Cam 96™ engines and 2000-up Sportster® models. These tappets are a great choice for any
stock or high performance application. Only the finest materials and precision machining techniques
are used in the manufacture of these lifters, and strict quality control insures that they will work.

flawlessly every time, no matter what the application. Whether you have a stock 88 incher or the
most outrageous big inch engine with a radical cam and spring combination, S&S tappets are built to
take it. Sold as a set of 4, HL2T kit not included.

Harley-Davidson® part number 18538-99A/B.

S&S offers high performance tappets for 1999-up Harley-Davidson® Twin Cam 88® and Twin Cam
96™ engines and 2000-up Sportster® models. These tappets are a great choice for any stock or high
performance application. Only the finest materials and precision machining techniques are used in the
manufacture of these lifters, and strict quality control insures that they will work flawlessly every
time, no matter what the application. Whether you have a stock 88 incher or the most outrageous big
inch engine with a radical cam and spring combination, S&S tappets are built to take it. Sold as a set
of 4, HL2T kit included, requires the use of adjustable pushrods.
Note: All reference to H-D® part numbers is for identification purposes only. We in no way
are implying that any of S&S Cycle's products are original equipment parts or that they are
equivalent to the corresponding H-D® part number shown.” Q: Are there any other differences, which make Hylift-Johnson lifters
superior?
A: Yes. Because Hylift-Johnson lifters are made in the U.S, they are made
from superior material content, the Nickel & Moly content is higher than others
on the market including O.E.
For superior slow leak down and heavy valve spring pressures we
recommend part number A-2313S (twin-cam models)
 A-2303 A-2313
Summary: If you want the best quality and less rattle,
insist on Hylift-Johnson lifters for your Harley!
Retail inc Dealer exc
A-2303S LIFTER EVO H/DUTY EACH 86.25 56.25
A-2303S/4 LIFTER EVO H/DUTY [SET 4] 345.00 180.00
A-2303/4 LIFTER EVO STANDARD [SET 4] 345.00 180.00
A-2313S LIFTER TWIN CAM H/DUTY EACH 86.25 56.25
A-2313S/4 LIFTER TWIN CAM H/DUTY [SET 4] 345.00 180.00
A-2313/4 LIFTER TWIN CAM STANDARD [SET 4] 345.00 180.00
NOTE: Heavy duty Hylift Johnson Lifters are suitable as stock OEM replacement as well as performance applications
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