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Author Topic: A bit of a nightmare-UPDATE  (Read 4907 times)

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wyobadger

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A bit of a nightmare-UPDATE
« on: November 09, 2019, 01:56:46 PM »

I'm not sure if this is cool or not but I'm asking for help in diagnosing a sudden engine problem in my 2013 SERK. My closest dealer is 50 miles away and over a nasty mountain summit so I'm trying to ferret this out without making that trip!

The bike was not ridden for about the past month...I know, shame on me! I kept it on the battery tender, with a fresh, full tank of fuel. Yesterday was nice weather (by November Wyoming standards) so I attempted a ride. Bike started fine, sounded great. Rode 1 mile and suddenly/spontaneously it started sputtering and backfiring and killing (limp-home mode, lost a cyclinder).

Pulled the following codes in this order from DTC:
P0134-Front O2 Sensor Open/Not Responding
P0154-Rear O2 Sensor Open/Not Responding
P1353-Front Cylinder No Combustion EFI
P1511-EFI Power Management Mode
P2101-EFI Motor Circuit Range Performance (Actuation Error)
P0031-Front Heated Oxygen Sensor Low/Open
C1095-Front Brake Switch Open (ABS)
C1216-Rear Brake Switch Open (ABS)

Next, I cleared DTC's to determine and eliminate historical codes versus current issues. Attempted to re-start and run bike but it coughed and sputtered so much it wouldn't run on its own unless starter was cranking. I then re-retrieved DTC's and only code P0031 (Front Heated Oxygen Sensor Low/Open) was retained in diagnostic program.

Questions:
1. Is it correct to assume all codes that were successfully cleared by the above process were "historical" (from prior issues that have since been resolved...and there have been several!) and not relevant to current issue?
2. Is it reasonable to assume it's a matter of buying and replacing the o2 sensor (PN 27729-10) and seeing if that resolves the issue or is there more diagnostic that could be done to verify the cause?
3.I have a Power Commander 5 unit on this bike and I'm wondering if there's any corrolation between the Front Heated o2 Sensor reading and the PC-5?

I'd welcome any input from those who've been down this road.

Thanks,
wyobadger


« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 03:35:48 PM by wyobadger »
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wyobadger
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Ironhorse

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Re: A bit of a nightmare
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2019, 02:16:10 PM »

Try removing the Power Commander and see what happens. I've had a PC go bad on me.
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wyobadger

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Re: A bit of a nightmare
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2019, 04:13:13 PM »

Thanks Ironhorse. I had a PCIII fail on a previous bike years ago. That'll be my next action.
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wyobadger
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JKM

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Re: A bit of a nightmare
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2019, 07:11:00 PM »

I believe the PC5 bypasses the oxygen sensors.  On my 2008 there is a bridge plug at the O2 sensor.  Check you O2 sensor connections

Also, you should post in the twin cam section as you will likely get much more insight there.
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grc

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Re: A bit of a nightmare
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2019, 08:52:40 PM »


An O2 sensor would not cause the severe issues you described; odds are that code has nothing to do with your problem.  As mentioneed by Ironhorse, the best first step would be to disconnect the PC-V and plug the harness directly to the ECM (stock setup).  If you have O2 sensor eliminators plugged into the connectors for the sensors, remove those and reconnect the wires to the sensors.  Then see how it runs with everything returned to stock.

Jerry
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wyobadger

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Re: A bit of a nightmare
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2019, 12:12:13 PM »

Thanks Jerry, I fear something else besides the code issue too. I'll dig into it later this week or weekend when I'm off work again.
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wyobadger
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wyobadger

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Re: A bit of a nightmare
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2019, 10:41:13 AM »

Pulled the PC V, reconnected harness to ECM...no change. Still getting only p0031 DTC. Looks like something more serious...damn. I'll update when I have more info. This bike had a lifter failure repaired (new cams, lifter, oil pan, etc) about 3000 miles ago. Wondering if this is related in any way or I'm just not lucky with this engine. Sadly, HD shop is my next step.
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wyobadger
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JKM

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Re: A bit of a nightmare
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2019, 10:51:43 AM »

Did you reconnect the O2 sensors as well when you when disconnected the PCV?
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Hoel Motors

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Re: A bit of a nightmare
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2019, 06:44:27 PM »

Sounds like a bad power commander to me......... I also lost a lifter and cam about 10,000 miles ago on my 2012
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wyobadger

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Re: A bit of a nightmare-UPDATE
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2019, 03:29:10 PM »

It's worse than I thought. Dealer just informed me that valves and pistons "collided" and are now bent. Not even sure what he's talking about? Less than 2000 miles ago I had lifter and cam failure repaired by this dealer (along with ancillary issues) and now a second catastrophic engine failure. Bike has 35K on it but two major engine failures so close together have me feeling pretty shook about this bike and HD in general. Service manager said he'll get back to me with more info but basically he said, "it sucks to be you."  Yeah, it does...

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johnsachs

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Re: A bit of a nightmare-UPDATE
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2019, 05:09:44 PM »

It's worse than I thought. Dealer just informed me that valves and pistons "collided" and are now bent. Not even sure what he's talking about? Less than 2000 miles ago I had lifter and cam failure repaired by this dealer (along with ancillary issues) and now a second catastrophic engine failure. Bike has 35K on it but two major engine failures so close together have me feeling pretty shook about this bike and HD in general. Service manager said he'll get back to me with more info but basically he said, "it sucks to be you."  Yeah, it does...
Unfortunately it sounds like the dealer that repaired it last time already has it apart. Judging by what he told you, if possible, try to get someone who knows what they're doing, and NOT an employee of that dealer, look at it and give you a second opinion as to the cause. Valves and pistons colliding is not common, unless you beat the engine to death, engine never cleaned properly from the last repair, or parts improperly installed when you had the cam and lifter repair.  :nixweiss:
John
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grc

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Re: A bit of a nightmare-UPDATE
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2019, 05:27:45 PM »

Unfortunately it sounds like the dealer that repaired it last time already has it apart. Judging by what he told you, if possible, try to get someone who knows what they're doing, and NOT an employee of that dealer, look at it and give you a second opinion as to the cause. Valves and pistons colliding is not common, unless you beat the engine to death, engine never cleaned properly from the last repair, or parts improperly installed when you had the cam and lifter repair.  :nixweiss:
John

^^^   What John said.  Valves sticking and colliding with each other or the pistons hasn't been a major issue with the 110's since about 2009, once Harley addressed the valve guide issues common on the 2007/2008 heads.  I wouldn't be surprised if this failure is related to the earlier lifter failure, but unless this dealership is the most honest place on the planet the odds are they won't admit it.  A second opinion would be nice, but I'm not sure how practical it would be to get the bike to another shop? Good luck, I hope things turn out well.

Jerry
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Phantom309

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Re: A bit of a nightmare-UPDATE
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2019, 02:35:48 AM »

I wouldn't trust a dealer to even put air in a tire these days. I was going to suggest a simple inspection of your front plug wire ... they have a tendency to rub under the tank from vibration and ground out so that = no spark on that cylinder. I cut some small pieces of vacuum hose and zip-tied them around any parts on both my wires that could rub. I'm sure if you actually had a catastrophe like valve to piston clash you would know it & shut it down immediately and not even try to run it again til it was sorted out ... a mechanical noise like that would be hard to miss.

No expert here, but IF your problem was what I mentioned you would probably smell raw fuel or a "rich" condition when it acted up. I would guess no spark & raw fuel sent through the cylinder could possibly foul your 02 sensor.

If the dealer is telling you it is absolutely valve to piston clash .... be sure to actually see proof with your own eyes before you agree to any work. I trust dealers for nothing because of past experiences and would never use them unless it was warranty work. If you have to pay at your own expense, I'd shop around for a reputable independent shop for repairs versus the dealer .... just my $.02.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 02:52:53 AM by Phantom309 »
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Re: A bit of a nightmare-UPDATE
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2019, 08:28:50 AM »

It's worse than I thought. Dealer just informed me that valves and pistons "collided" and are now bent. Not even sure what he's talking about? Less than 2000 miles ago I had lifter and cam failure repaired by this dealer (along with ancillary issues) and now a second catastrophic engine failure. Bike has 35K on it but two major engine failures so close together have me feeling pretty shook about this bike and HD in general. Service manager said he'll get back to me with more info but basically he said, "it sucks to be you."  Yeah, it does...
  To me the most likely cause is your dealer did not put the cam chest, lifters and pushrods back together correct after the last repair.  For example did he set the push rod length correct?  Or on adjustable push rods did he get the locking nut tightened correctly?  No reason this should have happened except poor repair work the first time.  Not sure I would let them repair it unless, they are paying for the repairs.

Valves do not hit pistons unless it was put together wrong. 
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HD Street Performance

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Re: A bit of a nightmare-UPDATE
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2019, 09:43:05 AM »

Go in and see the parts and snap a few photos of the damaged parts. This motor ran fine for a while after the initial repair? It may be a good time to be proactive and get the bike to another dealer or an independent shop better yet. I do know a very good independent shop in Idaho Falls area if that helps. He has a dyno and is very experienced with full motor rebuilds.
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