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[EAGLE1]

The Timken roller bearing to the plain straight roller bearing change is not only cost saving in the actual bearings themselves but also assembly time. Timken bearings require proper preloading as many of you surely know, which would require someone to actually think instead of just slapping together. if they are using an axial spacer to provide this preload someone would have to measure and grind this spacer to exact tolerances, very time consuming for an assembly line. i cant believe they can just switch to a plain roller bearing, because they provide little if no axial support. i am thinking they may be an angular contact bearing set in an opposed arrangment. does anyone actually know what the two bearing  (old-new) that are used, i would like to look at the thrust capacities of both, and see how much difference there is.

[grc]

The Timken roller bearing to the plain straight roller bearing change is not only cost saving in the actual bearings themselves but also assembly time. Timken bearings require proper preloading as many of you surely know, which would require someone to actually think instead of just slapping together. if they are using an axial spacer to provide this preload someone would have to measure and grind this spacer to exact tolerances, very time consuming for an assembly line. i cant believe they can just switch to a plain roller bearing, because they provide little if no axial support. i am thinking they may be an angular contact bearing set in an opposed arrangment. does anyone actually know what the two bearing  (old-new) that are used, i would like to look at the thrust capacities of both, and see how much difference there is.

See attachment - two regular ol' press fit roller bearings, with a lock ring and a thrust washer.

Jerry

[grc]

The way everyone is talkin' about these bearings I guess no one has ever had a timken bearing failure!!! HMMM and if they have where they MFin' the MOCO then (trust me their have been some failutres)? The bearing harley uses will handle the torque of 103 ci motor!!! So if the failure rate is less than 1% we are to assume that all these bearings are going to fail?  [smiley=wall.gif].  Wait I gotta get my pistol out so I can put the barrel in my mouth, someone told me the world was comin' to end this week [smiley=oops.gif]

Nothing made by man has a 0.000% failure rate.  Yes, Harley had bearing failures with the old setup also.  I think the issue is that the dual opposed tapered bearings were more robust, especially with modified engines, and would handle side loads that straight roller bearings aren't designed to handle.  If you run stock or lightly modified, the odds are in your favor that you'll be OK.  If you intend to put out some serious power, and then run it hard, the odds are that the failure rate will be higher than with the old bearings.  Is the world coming to an end?  Maybe, but not because of this issue.  I personally do not intend to do anything to my bike beyond a bolt-in cam, and I am not in the habit of beating the crap out of my equipment, so I'm not losing sleep over this.  My bitch is that H-D continues to cheapen the important parts of the product rather than the non-essential stuff, and does not pass any of the benefit along to the consumer.  We still get old technology at highly inflated prices; the only benefit is to the executives and stock holders.

JMHO  -  Jerry

[fatboyse2]

I spoke to HD Tech Support today about this. I'm doing a big upgrade on my FLSTFSE2 (see going for broke) and wanted to see if they have any service bulletins or comments on this.  They are investigating and will get bact to me by tomorrow.  I live close to the factory so and know quite a few mgmt level neighbors that work there too.  I also spoke to my dealer's service manager who is pretty good, they have not had any bearing failures in the past few years and have 10 bikes in the shop for maintenance and upgrades at any one time.  Given this is a potential high speed breakdown, I want to make sure I've got a reliable botton end...I'll let you know what I hear back.

[Grover]

No matter what kind of fix the aftermarket comes up with, my bike means to much to me. I am still doing the timken bearing conversion on my EAGLE.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

 DCFiremann,
 This bearing support is just an option for someone to strengthen the crap factory bearing, while the motor is still in the chasis.
 
 My motor is out and tore down. So I am going with the Timken conversion also.
 
 Hope the Zippers cam for the 103 shows good results. My buddy is interested for his 06 CUSE.

Take care,

GROVER

[EAGLE1]

Yes, Harley had bearing failures with the old setup also.  I think the issue is that the dual opposed tapered bearings were more robust, especially with modified engines, and would handle side loads that straight roller bearings aren't designed to handle.
JMHO  -  Jerry

The bearing failure happened to me twice!!
A buddy of mine is waiting delivery of his '06 CUSE and he is having the Bearing support installed before it leaves the dealership.

How nice of them to let US pay to fix a problem of theirs!! Then they won't have to dish out any cash for repairs! Ron also said that some builders have added the support, even after a Timkin conversion just for extra protection.
Grover

guys, these failures are due to whats known as OHL
an overhung load exists when a force is applied at right angles to a shaft beyond the shafts outermost bearing. Overhung loads on shafts result in bending moments and additional radial loads on the supporting bearings. Overhung load is a function of the shaft bending strength, the radial capacity of the bearing, the gearcase strength and the position of the sprocket or sheave on the shaft (bearing centerline to sprocket centerline).  These loads create strain on the drive shafts and bearings, and if exceed ratings can cause premature bearing failure. therefore I would advocate the use of this outer support device regardless if you upgrade to the timken set or not. it will increase the longevity of either bearing set.

[txbear55]

Know what you mean about that overhung load...shaft bending can be painful (the wife doesn't mind, though!).   Can't say that I've had a failure yet .      

[EAGLE1]

Know what you mean about that overhung load...shaft bending can be painful (the wife doesn't mind, though!).   Can't say that I've had a failure yet .      

har  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] reminds me of the old formula for the angle of the dangle!

angle of the dangle = heat of the meat x mass of the ass  

[syclone]

Gosh..I always thought   "if the heat of the meat = the angle of the dangle...the mass of the ass remains constant !

[hdhiwayman]

I guess I just get a little miffed about spending $32K+ to purchase and then an additional $2K
just to the sound, performance, and reliability I should have gotten in the first place. I'd rather spend my money on the "tun of  bling" stuff.

Don't mean to change the subject but me thinks you guys tend to wander a bit.  

[grc]

guys, these failures are due to whats known as OHL
an overhung load exists when a force is applied at right angles to a shaft beyond the shafts outermost bearing. Overhung loads on shafts result in bending moments and additional radial loads on the supporting bearings. Overhung load is a function of the shaft bending strength, the radial capacity of the bearing, the gearcase strength and the position of the sprocket or sheave on the shaft (bearing centerline to sprocket centerline).  

EAGLE1,

Exactly.  Now, think about what's likely to happen when you move the drive sprocket even further outboard, like on the new Dyna, and start hammering on that bike.  The more I think about it, the happier I am that I reconsidered my original idea to buy a new Dyna last spring.  Let's see, change the trans bearing every 15000 miles, rebuild the crank every ? miles, what else don't we know about yet?

Jerry

[John S]

There is another VERY important thing to remember in all the Timkin discussion.  That is with the face-to-face Timkin setup there were at least twice the number of roller bearings contacting the inner races (the shaft side).  Now, with the "new" setup there are fewer rollers thus less contact area.  Let's see if I have this right...

Fewer rollers and less contact area + equal or more load = more stress per roller bearing.   [smiley=confused5.gif]

Yes, I have double checked my math and it is correct.  But I guess Harley uses thier own mathematicians!!!  [smiley=drink.gif] [smiley=oops.gif] [smiley=worthless.gif] [smiley=nervous.gif]

[tunedse2]

Has someone in here actually had this problem? I have been following this discussion, as well
as some in the past and I cant get my Dealership Service Manager to stop trying to
talk me out of this. I dont know what to think, they sell 120 bikes a month and have 18
full time Techs, and he tells me he hasnt had A problem with this on a properly maintained
Bike in 2 years. Is this something I should just do? help me with this one.

[grc]

Has someone in here actually had this problem? I have been following this discussion, as well
as some in the past and I cant get my Dealership Service Manager to stop trying to
talk me out of this. I dont know what to think, they sell 120 bikes a month and have 18
full time Techs, and he tells me he hasnt had A problem with this on a properly maintained
Bike in 2 years. Is this something I should just do? help me with this one.

Read this thread  http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1131584931   As to should you or shouldn't you, that depends on what mods if any you plan to do.  If you aren't doing any internal engine mods, probably not necessary.

Jerry

[Twolanerider]

and he tells me he hasnt had A problem with this on a properly maintained Bike in 2 years. Is this something I should just do? help me with this one.

The statement he's offering about not seeing the bearing failure "on a properly maintained bike" gives a clue that he's either dodging the question, doesn't understand the failure, or simply has never heard of the issue (not a likely option given all the print it's gotten).  This is because except, I suppose, in some case where you just let the bike run out of oil this is not a maintenance issue.  Has nothing to do with regular service and maintenance.  Instead is a failure resulting of a component being pushed beyond load limits (and that those load limits aren't what they should be; or what they used to be before the change away from Timken style bearings).