Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Fullsac Stage II X Pipe 54 Andrews, 2010 CVO dyno test!  (Read 2204 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Fullsac Performance

  • Vendor
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1753
  • Never ride with a Halfsac! Insist on Fullsac Perf!
    • AZ

    • Fullsac Performance
Fullsac Stage II X Pipe 54 Andrews, 2010 CVO dyno test!
« on: August 07, 2011, 10:31:10 AM »

Here's a dyno chart from a recent 2010 CVO Street Glide that rolled through my shop.

Parts list
Exhaust:  Fullsac B X Pipe. 2.25 CVO power cores.
AC: SE Heavy Breather
Cams: Andrews 54, installed with stock pushrods and lifters.
Cometic .030 head gaskets,
ECM accessed with TTS Mastertune.

Bike had a few thousand miles on it, so it was well broken in. Made better than average numbers before and after
the Stage II kit was installed. The 2.25 cores were a little loud for my personal preference, but they did pull a solid 2 HP gain
over the 2.0s. This would not have been the case with stock cams. Customer prefered the louder 2.25s and commented on how
much quieter they were compared to his last bike with TD Rineharts. No surprise there.

Stock off the showroom floor          85 HP-100 TQ
Fullsac Stage II kit                      107 HP-114 TQ

Both before and after dyno runs were done in 5th gear with the same tank of gas within a 48 hour period.
I mention these details because they can make a substantial difference in the test results. Using dyno
numbers from different bikes tested on different dynos operated by different people to evaluate performance gains
can lead to very inaccurate conclusions. Hint: When checking out a dyno chart, always look at the shape of the TQ line.
Well tuned Harleys produce a nice smooth arching TQ line. Hence the term, "torque curve". TQ holes and TQ valleys are bad.
Take a look at the stock TQ line. Fell on its face at 3K, not so good. Big smooth TQ curves are what makes these tubby bikes fun to ride!
The shape of the TQ line tells us far more about "real world" performance than the peak numbers that everybody gets focused on.

Special thanks to "Goatheads MC" member Mike Buxton for riding with a Fullsac!

Steve George
Fullsac Performance
www.fullsac.com
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 10:42:13 AM by Fullsac Perf »
Logged
Steve@fullsac.com  www.fullsac.com
Never argue with idiots. They will beat you with experience.

Dan_Lockwood

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2497
Re: Fullsac Stage II X Pipe 54 Andrews, 2010 CVO dyno test!
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2011, 11:13:13 AM »

That sounds like something I might be doing this winter on my '09 SERG.  As I said when I read in your post for the very first Andrews 54 cam install many months ago, this is a Win Win all the way.

The last thing I would like to ask is this, it seems most do the pulls in 5th gear.  A couple years ago some said they had theirs dyno'd in 4th.  When I did the Dyno Drags last summer I know it would have been better for my times and HP if I had just a few more rpms at the end.  I was in 5th when I ended my quarter mile run, but the rpms had stopped increasing and was in a holding patten a few seconds prior to the end of the run.  The rpms were around 5300 at the end, but as I said, had not increased for a few seconds prior to the end.  That was with stock factory gearing. 

If I had installed my 30t front sprocket, I feel my motor would have been in a better place to have done slightly better at the end of the run, but still in 5th gear.  I think I would have still been increasing in rpms with the slightly lower gearing.

Now as far as my direct question to you with your experience in both stock and 30t applications.  What number changes do you think would show up with a Stage I setup done in a before / after 30t change?

I know that the actual hp of the motor would not be affected by the downstream gearing change, but the reading at the rear wheel could improve because of the gearing.

What are your thoughts on this question?

Thanks for all the postings and dyno runs.
Logged
Dan

2009 SERG Orange / Black
Board Track Racer Project, Ultima 113"/6spd
2021 Coleman UT400 Side By Side

Fullsac Performance

  • Vendor
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1753
  • Never ride with a Halfsac! Insist on Fullsac Perf!
    • AZ

    • Fullsac Performance
Re: Fullsac Stage II X Pipe 54 Andrews, 2010 CVO dyno test!
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2011, 02:01:39 PM »

That sounds like something I might be doing this winter on my '09 SERG.  As I said when I read in your post for the very first Andrews 54 cam install many months ago, this is a Win Win all the way.

The last thing I would like to ask is this, it seems most do the pulls in 5th gear.  A couple years ago some said they had theirs dyno'd in 4th.  When I did the Dyno Drags last summer I know it would have been better for my times and HP if I had just a few more rpms at the end.  I was in 5th when I ended my quarter mile run, but the rpms had stopped increasing and was in a holding patten a few seconds prior to the end of the run.  The rpms were around 5300 at the end, but as I said, had not increased for a few seconds prior to the end.  That was with stock factory gearing.  

If I had installed my 30t front sprocket, I feel my motor would have been in a better place to have done slightly better at the end of the run, but still in 5th gear.  I think I would have still been increasing in rpms with the slightly lower gearing.

Now as far as my direct question to you with your experience in both stock and 30t applications.  What number changes do you think would show up with a Stage I setup done in a before / after 30t change?

I know that the actual hp of the motor would not be affected by the downstream gearing change, but the reading at the rear wheel could improve because of the gearing.

What are your thoughts on this question?

Thanks for all the postings and dyno runs.
Great question Dan

Anytime you multiply torque there will be a greater loss in efficiency than when you are not. Example: 6th gear will always deliver the highest HP numbers to the rear wheel. 5th gear will show about 2-3 HP less than 6th, and 4th less than 5th and so on as we multiply TQ in greater numbers in the lower gears. Back in the day of the 5 speed bikes, most dyno tuners used 4th gear for their final pulls. The new 6 speed bikes have much taller gears than the 5 speed bikes. So now I use 4th gear for all my tuning pulls and 5th for all my final pulls as shown in my charts. At the customers request, I will do 6th gear runs to get the highest possible numbers so they can go brag to their friends. Now back to your question. The 30T front pulley multiplies a greater amount of torque and will show a proportionate power loss to the rear wheel when dynoed back to back over the taller 32T. The technical explanation of HP is "work done in time". The lower gears show a HP loss on the dyno due to the increased friction of making additional torque. In the "real world", you will put 3 bike lengths on your buddy with the lower gears. If we were measuring the forward velocity of a 900 pound Harley and able to convert it into a HP number, the lower gears are now making more HP by moving the big Harley further in less time. The dyno is still no match for a 1/4 mile of asphalt.

Steve George
Fullsac Performance
Logged
Steve@fullsac.com  www.fullsac.com
Never argue with idiots. They will beat you with experience.

Dan_Lockwood

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2497
Re: Fullsac Stage II X Pipe 54 Andrews, 2010 CVO dyno test!
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2011, 03:13:19 PM »

Thanks Steve for your detailed explanation.

So dyno wise, the 30t will show a slight drop in HP but in the real world, getting work done, it might win the drag race.  Is this what you were saying?

Thanks again.
Logged
Dan

2009 SERG Orange / Black
Board Track Racer Project, Ultima 113"/6spd
2021 Coleman UT400 Side By Side

Fullsac Performance

  • Vendor
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1753
  • Never ride with a Halfsac! Insist on Fullsac Perf!
    • AZ

    • Fullsac Performance
Re: Fullsac Stage II X Pipe 54 Andrews, 2010 CVO dyno test!
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2011, 04:31:40 PM »

Thanks Steve for your detailed explanation.

So dyno wise, the 30t will show a slight drop in HP but in the real world, getting work done, it might win the drag race.  Is this what you were saying?

Thanks again.
Whether its a drag race or just haulin you and the wife up a hill fully loaded at the legal speed limit with out down shifting, the 3.06 gearing
improves real world performance. That's what I'm saying.

SG
Logged
Steve@fullsac.com  www.fullsac.com
Never argue with idiots. They will beat you with experience.

Dan_Lockwood

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2497
Re: Fullsac Stage II X Pipe 54 Andrews, 2010 CVO dyno test!
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2011, 11:30:05 PM »

Whether its a drag race or just haulin you and the wife up a hill fully loaded at the legal speed limit with out down shifting, the 3.06 gearing
improves real world performance. That's what I'm saying.

SG

Steve, thanks again.

So if I did both the 54 from you and your map WITH the 30t at the same time, I'd probably think I just put in a new 120R.

I'm thinking that would be a fun ride!!!
Logged
Dan

2009 SERG Orange / Black
Board Track Racer Project, Ultima 113"/6spd
2021 Coleman UT400 Side By Side

hotroadking

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 192
Re: Fullsac Stage II X Pipe 54 Andrews, 2010 CVO dyno test!
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 12:38:18 PM »

I"ve done the primary chain conversion to change the ratio from 3.15 to 3.37 in my heritage with the 124, and that made
a lot of sense as you don't want to lug these big strokers, however it made 5th gear riding above 65 unbearable.... Noise, rpm,  vibration etc (twin cam engine)  The 6 speed with .86 helped greatly..

When you say that you need a 2.25 socket for the pulley to remove it, I believe you'll need one that's
8 inches deep or you won't be able to get over the main transmission shaft, and you need to have an insert
in that socket so you don't fubar the main trans shaft.

Also, when you go to change the pulley, you have to remove the inner and outer primary, which of course includes
the gearset in the primary, all gaskets, o rings, clean it up, be sure you have new o-rings for the new inner primary bolts, remove the rear tire, and remove the swing arm partially, rear brake,  so  it's not simply, toss on a belt and pulley and go riding, you have a lot of things to do.  

Not trying to stop anyone from doing this but be ready to get greasy and you'll need at least 3 or 4 cigars, preferably
Dominican or Nicaraguan as we don't want to waste a good cuban by getting it greasy with primary oil.

Also to get that nut off, you'll want to loosen it before you remove the rear tire, because you may need someone to stand on the rear brake and put some weight on the rear tire so you can bust the nut loose.  Otherwise you'll need to remove the top of the trans, and the shift drum and lock two of the forks into two gears at one time to lock the shaft.

This is why JMO the primary gear change is a viable option,

1) you don't have to have a special belt
2) you don't have to change the belt
3) you don't have to take the inner primary off (source of many a leak from bad installs)
4) you don't need any special tools sans a device to lock the primary from spinning (impact on removal solves this)
5) you don't need to lock the trans by removing the top cover (another $20 HD Gasket)

basically it's less to go wrong, JMO.  However you will need a press to get the inner hub out of the stock
hub and into the new hub.  Or you could take them over to harbor freight and tell them you want to do
a test run on the display model LOL

Either way you do accomplish something Bobby Woods has been preaching since 2000,  
change the gears to feel the bike come alive.

Either way you go, it's not a bad change, it's just how far do you want to go and how
much work are you willing to do to save $200 over a primary gear ratio change...  
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 04:23:06 PM by hotroadking »
Logged
"My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them." Winston Churchill

NorEaster

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 139
  • FLHRSEI.ORG

    • CVO1: 2006 FLSTFSE2 Nebula Yellow / Cobalt Blue
    • CVO2: 2012 FLHXSE3 Ruby Red / Typhoon Maroon
Re: Fullsac Stage II X Pipe 54 Andrews, 2010 CVO dyno test!
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2011, 06:42:46 AM »

Whether its a drag race or just haulin you and the wife up a hill fully loaded at the legal speed limit with out down shifting, the 3.06 gearing
improves real world performance. That's what I'm saying.

SG

Steve, what's the rough cost, or installation time, to have the primary changed to a 30T on a 2012 CVO Street Glide?  I have a new bike coming next month and am already planning on doing your stage II kit on it.  Now I am wondering if I should do the gearing change as well.  How involved of a change is this?  And in your opinion, is this worth the money to do with the stage II?

For a point of reference I generally do not spend a lot of time on highways or at max RPM.  I spend most of my time in the 40-50mph and 2-4K RPM range where I ride up here in New Hampshire.  But with that said, once I have a bagger I may find myself doing more long range and highway riding in the future.

Thanks.
Logged

hotroadking

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 192
Re: Fullsac Stage II X Pipe 54 Andrews, 2010 CVO dyno test!
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2011, 04:03:59 PM »

While I'm not Steve my guess is you are looking at somewhere around $750 total including parts, labor, materials.

4 hours labor at $100 Hr  $400
Pulley - HD retail  $80
Primary gasket $40
Primary Oil $10
New Belt $150
Misc o ring- bolts, shop materials $50
Tax etc $20

The difference will be hours for the job and any discounts you can
obtain on parts.

JMO, all you have to do to combat the problem is use your left toe and press that
front lever down one.... :huepfenjump3:

Like Porsche says, "when life is passing you by, downshift"

Logged
"My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them." Winston Churchill
 

Page created in 0.195 seconds with 25 queries.