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[SPIDERMAN]

I would imagine given the demographics of H-D riders in general, and more to the point, CVO owners that a lot of you find yourself in my position. My daughters are adults and now I'm feeling to some degree;  Now what ?  Yes, this insane addiction I have to my H-D's is filling the void but for some time I've been pondering what my goal(s) are or should be for the remainder of my life. This site often offers a better glimpse of life than any other form of information dissemination available to me. Given the cross section of society represented within the membership one can glean some valuable life lessons as well as all of the usefull information we share about CVO's and Harley-Davidson motorcycles in general. Not that he is the only example, but I single out JR as someone who has opened my eyes to being a better person. It's one thing to say you're a Christian as many do, it's another thing to actually be one. And by that I mean actually practice the things Christianity teaches us in loving our fellow man and doing unto others and so forth. So lately my goal is simply to become a better man. To be straightforward and honest in everything I do and to put into practice the things I expound upon in some of my musings on this site. I do not know where this is going to lead, only that it is the path I have chosen for myself for now and the future. It is a path without a roadmap, for much as I respect JR, I do not consider myself a Christian. I have a deep faith in GOD and a belief in the natural order of things. But I do not believe in one true religion as being the path to heaven. There is much good in the teachings of Christ and lessons for us all, but there is also good in the teachings of some of the other of the world's great religions. I truly hope that in posting this, I do not upset anyone. It is certainly not my intent. The greatness of America is that it derives it's strength from it's diversity, not from it's sameness. Don't know if any of this touches a cord with anyone else, but it's something that's been coming together in my mind since I was in the ICU after my knee surgery. While it might not seem it since I'm known for running off on these kind of posts, some of what I've stated here has taken me awhile to be willing to admit openly. But in deciding to be a better man, I also have to be willing to state who and what I am.

B B

[RedDevil]

Well said Spiderman.  There are many of us like that.  I believe in God, but yet do not practice any particular sect.  I don't feel that to honor God, one must do it inside of a building with other people, but rather inside of your heart and soul.  I try to respect everyone's feelings, beliefs, and opinions, for everyone is different and everyone has a right to say and feel the way they do.  My dad always believed in the golden rule of do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and I maintain that belief.  The only two people that you have to prove that you're a better person is you and God.  For in the end that's what matters.
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[SPIDERMAN]

My apologies for the redundancy between this thread and the " Sunday Sermon " thread. The difference in my mind was that this thread is sort of agnostic and the Sunday Sermon thread was started by AJ to be a place for folks to post some religious thoughts and offer up stories or advice that are based in their beliefs. JR and I are close in a lot of ways on faith, but we are not the same. I felt that this thread might be an outlet for others who have a deep faith they live their lives by and yet do not call themselves any particlular thing. My intent is to try to reach out to folks who are not comfortable with wearing their faith on their sleeves so that those that do can see and understand the different ways people express their faith. Also, faith should not just be a Christian thing. Normal demographics would dictate that not everyone on this site is a Christian. I would suspect we have a few people from a variety of the world's great religions represented in the 3200 or so members we have. I was hoping to perhaps draw some of the into the great conversation that this website has become.

B B

[JR]

It is a path without a roadmap, for much as I respect JR, I do not consider myself a Christian. I have a deep faith in GOD and a belief in the natural order of things. But I do not believe in one true religion as being the path to heaven. There is much good in the teachings of Christ and lessons for us all, but there is also good in the teachings of some of the other of the world's great religions.

That's a good thing Big Buddy because if you were a Christian then you wouldn't be able to make the other statement about being the path to Heaven. A Christian is a believer in Jesus Christ and Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No One comes to the Father except through me."

Just because you believe in God doesn't mean your going to Heaven. In James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that --and shudder!" There will be eternity for Satan and all his demons and it won't be in Heaven.

I use to assume when someone said they were a Christian that they knew God's plan of Salvation until I was prompted to ask what it was to be "Saved". It was astonishing to find out many can't tell you. Many don't even know what the the Gospel of Jesus Christ is yet they think they are going to Heaven. It just shows the dis justice of our Christian Churches today!

For me it was about finding the Truth. It didn't happen overnight. For me it was a 4 year journey struggling with my own beliefs and what God's word says. During this journey I was trying to clean up my life on my own. As I learned about this God of the bible I realized this God of Love is also a Just God. There was a penalty, judgement for our sin. Heaven and Hell are real places for eternity. Sin was separating me from God and Heaven. Jesus is God's sacrificial lamb for sin. John 3:16, there was a time you would just about always see someone holding this sign up with this verse on it at a football game as the ball was going thru the uprights. "For God so Loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." 

People usually stop there but the the following verses explain it better. John 3:17 "God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only son. 19) This is the verdict; Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20) Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come to into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21) But whoever lives by the Truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

It is so important to know which God you are trusting in for all eternity. Is it a God you created? "My God wouldn't send anyone to Hell, He is a God of love." Or is he a God without Christ? "I don't believe Jesus was the son of God...he was just a good prophet. Or is it the God of the bible who prophesied in the Old testament about the coming of Jesus, Savior of the world.

If you feel what you believe is the truth, God Bless You! That is between you and your God. Which gate will you enter? Matthew 7:13, " Enter though the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14) But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." I would rather speak boldly of the truth of God's word that may offend some. Then keep my mouth shut and allow them to enter the wrong gate!

God's Sweet Love to All!

                                                                  JR  

[Bagger]

I'm a Catholic, but I don't practice the faith regularly.  Christmas, Easter, and whenever my Dad visits are the only times I go to church.  I do believe in God, and I also believe Jesus Christ died for our sins................but outside of this post, I don't mention it.  I'm not a bad person, and I think it would be vain to call myself a good person.  I try, and I'm not often successful, to live my life by the Golden Rule.  Sometimes people just piss me off, and when that happens, I don't have anything to do with them.  Not very "Golden Rule" is it?  I do try to do the right thing.  I try to be respectful, and I always give 100% to everything I do.  I believe God watches over me and takes great care of me.  I believe God does the same for my family.  How busy I am is no excuse for my failure to pay enough attention to God.  Each night before I go to bed, I do reflect on the day, I pray, I thank God for each of my blessings, and I ask God to watch over me and my family.  Each morning when I wake up and look at the man in the mirror, once again I pray that God will take care of me and my family as we go our ways during the day.  For some reason, I don't think that is enough.

[hard10]

My apologies for the redundancy between this thread and the " Sunday Sermon " thread. The difference in my mind was that this thread is sort of agnostic and the Sunday Sermon thread was started by AJ to be a place for folks to post some religious thoughts and offer up stories or advice that are based in their beliefs. ...



B B

B the Sunday Sermon thread was meant to do just this, get people talking. I think we all need a little motivational inspiration and devotion. There is a lot to be learned from sharing and if we can do it here and open up a dialogue my goal is accomplished. There is a lot to learn. Some here are old enough to be my father; some are young enough to be my brother or sister. I seek wisdom. Something that others may teach me.

With that said, I thank everyone for their input. AJ

[SPIDERMAN]

    Is it fair to say that Christians believe that all who practice a faith other than Christianity are condemmed to hell ? I find that insufferably arrogant and impossibly ignorant. Who are we as mortal beings to determine which of God's messengers was right or wrong. I believe that God in his infinite wisdom sent messengers to all of his people, each in their own kind and way. I do not feel any one religion is right or wrong. Enigma or riddle ?  It is simply not for us to know in this life. I commend any person of faith. I appluad those who live by their faith and spread the good words and deeds of their faith. But I do not believe that I am born of sin as Christianity would have me believe among other things. I do believe in the power of prayer. For God hears our prayers irregardless of whom we would pray to so long as we have faith in that which we cannot explain. I am sorry if this post offends, because I do not intend to do so, but I feel the world has suffered long enough from all of the wars that religion has begotten.

B B

[SEULTRA]

JR
    Is it fair to say that Christians believe that all who practice a faith other than Christianity are condemmed to hell ? I find that insufferably arrogant and impossibly ignorant. Who are we as mortal beings to determine which of God's messengers was right or wrong. I believe that God in his infinite wisdom sent messengers to all of his people, each in their own kind and way. I do not feel you are wrong, I simply do not believe you are right. Enigma or riddle ?  It is simply not for us to know in this life. I commend you for your faith. I appluad the way you live your life in support of your faith and the open, honest and decent way you spread the message of your faith. But I do not believe that I am born of sin as Christianity would have me believe among other things. I do believe in the power of prayer. For God hears our prayers irregardless of whom we would pray to so long as we have faith in that which we cannot explain. I am sorry if this post offends, because I do not intend to do so, but I feel the world has suffered long enough from those who would kill for their beliefs.

B B

Interesting post BB ... what then would you say to someone who does not believe in a supreme being yet believes that we should treat each other decently and with respect and not disrespect others because they have beliefs contrary to their own? That's me.
I believe that religious intolerance or belief that there is only "one true faith" is narrow minded and small. I believe that it is important to have strong personal values and to be true to your beliefs. I believe also that it is wrong to impose those values on others or believe that others are lesser people because they don't share your values.
All this is, of course, just my opinion and is not meant to offend others... just offer another point of view.

[SPIDERMAN]

I went back and edited my post because I realized that I was addressing the issue and not JR in particular, so I apologize for the difference in my post as now on the site and what is quoted above. Beyond that, I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on anyone. I am hoping to engender a debate on the value of tolerance. Because I don't believe in certain tenets of Christianity doesn't mean I don't have a deep respect for that religion. What I am trying to say is that I have great respect for all of the world's religions. But it seems that there will always be zealots who interpret their particular religion in such a way as to allow them to impose their will on others. Maybe I am truly naive, but I felt that if we on this site could agree to disagree then perhaps we could carry that forward to those we interact with outside of this site.

B B

[HUBBARD]

Man, the stories I could tell.  But I won't in a public forum.  This is what I know and believe.  There is a God, and there is a devil.  If you believe in one, you better believe in the other.  When I served the latter, he didn't worry about me.  He knew he had me, and he knew I was his deciple.  When through my Dear Mother's prayers, God put the idea in my head I needed to turn from my wicked ways, I tried to do just that.  Satan turned up the wick then, and it was a terrible battle.  I won, but not by myself.  Now, I have a choice to be a winner or a loser.  I could be either one, tomorrow.  But not today.  Today I chose to be a winner.  Now, don't you think Satan ain't jumpin' up and down right now, right here, throwin' a fit, 'cause I've whooped his a$$ today.  He wants me back, and he'll never stop tryin' to get me back.  If I do what's right, and try to lend a helping hand to my fellow man, as was done to me, seek His advice, and thank Him for my Blessings, I believe the Lion will never walk, nor will the Eagle's eye see, the path I'm on.  That don't make me an angel, 'cause I ain't.  I try to do the right thing, and not do things that cause guilt, but I haven't mastered that yet.  Probably never will.  All I can do, is try.  Later--HUBBARD      

[SPIDERMAN]

Man, the stories I could tell.  But I won't in a public forum.  This is what I know and believe.  There is a God, and there is a devil.  If you believe in one, you better believe in the other.  When I served the latter, he didn't worry about me.  He knew he had me, and he knew I was his deciple.  When through my Dear Mother's prayers, God put the idea in my head I needed to turn from my wicked ways, I tried to do just that.  Satan turned up the wick then, and it was a terrible battle.  I won, but not by myself.  Now, I have a choice to be a winner or a loser.  I could be either one, tomorrow.  But not today.  Today I chose to be a winner.  Now, don't you think Satan ain't jumpin' up and down right now, right here, throwin' a fit, 'cause I've whooped his a$$ today.  He wants me back, and he'll never stop tryin' to get me back.  If I do what's right, and try to lend a helping hand to my fellow man, as was done to me, seek His advice, and thank Him for my Blessings, I believe the Lion will never walk, nor will the Eagle's eye see, the path I'm on.  That don't make me an angel, 'cause I ain't.  I try to do the right thing, and not do things that cause guilt, but I haven't mastered that yet.  Probably never will.  All I can do, is try.  Later--HUBBARD      

Hubbard,
             Never thought I'd quote you let alone praise you, but dude the post above is so righteous, I'd be a jerk not to give credit where credit is due.

 Right on brother Hubbard, right on

B B

[JR]

    Is it fair to say that Christians believe that all who practice a faith other than Christianity are condemned to hell ? I find that insufferably arrogant and impossibly ignorant. Who are we as mortal beings to determine which of God's messengers was right or wrong. I believe that God in his infinite wisdom sent messengers to all of his people, each in their own kind and way. I do not feel any one religion is right or wrong. Enigma or riddle ?  It is simply not for us to know in this life. I commend any person of faith. I applaud those who live by their faith and spread the good words and deeds of their faith. But I do not believe that I am born of sin as Christianity would have me believe among other things. I do believe in the power of prayer. For God hears our prayers irregardless of whom we would pray to so long as we have faith in that which we cannot explain. I am sorry if this post offends, because I do not intend to do so, but I feel the world has suffered long enough from all of the wars that religion has begotten.

B B

Big Buddy I want to start by saying it is not my intention to impose my beliefs on anybody! This is an open forum in which I was explaining the Christian faith. I was trying to explain why I feel Jesus is the only way to heaven. It was not based on my own authority or beliefs, instead I used scripture from Gods Word, the bible. To read and study the bible it was clear for me to see which of God's messengers to believe in. It was in Love that I shared. God knows I am ignorant but it was not my intention to be arrogant. I simply don't want anyone to find out when it's too late that they were trusting in their own authority or beliefs to get to heaven. Don't believe the bible is God's word or don't even believe in a God? That is your prerogative. If your right and I'm wrong, what have I to lose? Nothing! If I'm right and your wrong, you have all eternity in heaven to lose. We live in a great country where we can share our beliefs and opinions freely. I feel as though we are family here and I love everyone very much. It is especially why I share what I have. God's Love and peace to everyone.

                                                               JR

[SBB]

Guys

The title of this thread is,

What to do with your life?

Not to get into all the other debates, but if JR, Spiderman, or Hubbard called and said they needed my help,.,.,.,

I would know what to do with my life at that moment.
I would be there for them!


Thus endeth Silver-Blacks lesson!

[HogBreath]

BB, I’ve got to take my hat off to you for having the courage and conviction to start this thread. This thread says a lot about your character. It makes me think. Why do we all spend as much time on this site as we do? Is it only this “insane addiction to our Harley’s” you spoke of? While that is what initially drew me to CVOHARLEY, what keeps me coming back is the potential friendships of people with similar “insane addictions”. So far I’ve only met a couple of local members of this site. Instantly we shared a common bond. While I’ve rode many miles alone, I find it more enjoyable to ride with good friends. The more the merrier. Generally, the members on this site are in the same place in life you speak of. Our children are now adults. We’ve got more time on our hands than 25 year olds starting our careers & families. We generally have the financial resources for CVO Harleys. I hope to meet & ride with all of this site’s members at some time.

I have to agree with you about JR and his character. I’ve never met the man, but I’m convinced he’s exactly as he seems to be on this site. I feel the same way about most all of this site’s members. I recently bought some chrome from a site member. He didn’t wait to receive my check before he shipped the parts. I didn’t wait to receive the parts before I sent the check.. How many other message boards would you feel comfortable in doing that? I’ve only been a member of this site for a few months, but, there are dozens of people I’d feel comfortable calling if I needed help while riding in their area. I’d venture to guess all of them would come to my assistance. I know I would come to theirs, regardless of how well I knew them.

Lastly, I’d like to comment on your statement: “I do not consider myself a Christian”.

I’ve tried to respond to this thread w/o referring to my religious beliefs, but, I’m finding it almost impossible to do. I believe there’s a presence inside of me giving me the desire to “Do the right thing”, to “Live the right way” & as you say “BE a Better Man”. That presence is different things to different people. I know what it is to me. I’d venture to guess it’s the same to you & JR. The times I’m successful at “Doing the right thing” or “Being a better Man”, I sure didn’t do it alone, so don’t give me the credit.

Finally..by your desire to be a better man are you not a Christian?

Let’s Ride brothers and all continue to “Do the Right Thing”.

HB

[Midnight Rider]

B B...Even the Christians of the world cannot agree about which form is the "right" form, and will lead a soul to Heaven.  I live in an area of the country where Southern Baptists control many aspects of government and public life, and shun those who do not subscribe to their specific way of thinking.  I work with them every day.  Many of them will stick one in you and break it off if given the chance, and think it's all OK if they go to church that Sunday, then come in Monday and do the same thing again.  Christianity, as a Philosophy of Life, is one of many great ways to live life by.  There are certainly others equally viable, and for any one group to consider theirs as the only "true" one is more than arrogant, it's ludicrous.

I hope nobody thinks the worse of me for this, but Religion is the invention of man in a vain attempt to define the meaning of his own existence.  Predominant thought believes we are the only animals on the planet who are conscious of our own ultimate death (I personally think that is arrogant as well).  Because we have an opposable thumb (and a bit more frontal cortex than 90% of other animals) and have figured out ways to communicate with each other, we are able to discuss and write about our fear of death.  We tell stories (myths) about things in feeble attempts to justify our beliefs, values, and fears.  Some have a basis in fact, some do not.  Most are exaggerated, some are mere fabrication.  Some are good stories, and should be taken to heart and moral lessons withdrawn.  Few should be taken literally.

I do not need a structure for what I know in my heart to be the right way to treat both other beings and the planet.  I have seen human beings do horrible things both to each other and other living things.  Some people find comfort within the structure of Religious Doctrine (or Dogma, depending), and for them, particularly if it gives them a reason to be better humans while on this earth, it is a good path to choose.  I know the right way to be without the necessity of that structure.  Not that I haven't failed at times in my life, but I can honestly look at myself in the mirror every morning and know that I have treated people as well as they will allow me to treat them.  I remove myself from the others.  I think that most everyone has goodness in them, they just forget where it is, and how to find it sometimes, and Religion can help them. Some people do not have any good in them.  They don't need to be here.

I think we get one chance, and this is it.  Do the right thing.  Touch people kindly in whatever way you are able.  Leave something good here for the children and all the other living things we share space with.  People will remember you if you do these things.  The memories are what matters...make them good ones.

[SPIDERMAN]

TC
             Incredible post. I live for days when this site provides me with insight into my fellow man as you and other have on this thread

Hogbreath,
               Hard to add much to what you said beyond saying I totally enjoy reading posts like yours.

JR,
               Hope you're not reading too deep into what I am saying. I am trying to see what other folks think about my theory of One GOD for all religions. I honestly feel that dealing with matters of faith has a deep influence on how we live our lives as Hogbreath has pointed out. So all in all this thread IS a good vehicle to discuss anything which causes us to stop and consider what we are doing and why. Please understand JR that I do not for a single moment disrespect you or your conviction. I do however want you to understand that while I share your basic desire to be a better man I believe the answers to life are found in the teachings of all of GOD's messengers. I also believe that GOD INTENDED his message to be diverse and for man to come to understand that HE is everything and everything is HE. Look at the spiritualism of our native American breathren. While they did not know of Jesus Christ, they believed in The Great Spirit and his influence in all aspects of their lives and they understood that it was their path to respect each other and all of the things The Great Spirit provided them in their lives. And while not ever being exposed to the gospel they also understood that there was an after life awaiting them and that they would be judged for their time on earth. How would you explain the commonality of that and the teachings of Jesus and his disciples if not for the connection with GOD. One GOD for all. Throughout the history of mankind this theme runs through every faith like a river. I had hoped Twolane would chime in on this thread as he is a fountain of historical reference and connotations. My point is not to question anyone's beliefs. My point is to show how we are all connected. If the 20th Century is remembered for anything, it should be remembered for the fact that we as mankind became so diverse, we became divided. In wanting to be a better man, I seek to find ways to bring us back together. As Hogbreath has pointed out above, This SITE in a small way is an example of that. We do trust each other more than is considered normal by any standard of modern society. Why is that ? I can't say beyond again to agree that perhaps due to circumstance, a group of people at similar points in their lives have come together with a common interest and the bonds of friendship that have grown and continue to grow from that common interest fuels other aspects of our lives which we feel the need to share - - - - - like me reaching out here and asking folks what they think about life, religion and whatever they choose to post about. I've said it before, this site is to me a gathering place where anything and everything can and is discussed. In the short time I've been on the site, I've seen it mature to where we now discuss issues that often become heated for the most part with respect for each other.

B B

[SEULTRA]

B B...Even the Christians of the world cannot agree about which form is the "right" form, and will lead a soul to Heaven.  I live in an area of the country where Southern Baptists control many aspects of government and public life, and shun those who do not subscribe to their specific way of thinking.  I work with them every day.  Many of them will stick one in you and break it off if given the chance, and think it's all OK if they go to church that Sunday, then come in Monday and do the same thing again.  Christianity, as a Philosophy of Life, is one of many great ways to live life by.  There are certainly others equally viable, and for any one group to consider theirs as the only "true" one is more than arrogant, it's ludicrous.

I hope nobody thinks the worse of me for this, but Religion is the invention of man in a vain attempt to define the meaning of his own existence.  Predominant thought believes we are the only animals on the planet who are conscious of our own ultimate death (I personally think that is arrogant as well).  Because we have an opposable thumb (and a bit more frontal cortex than 90% of other animals) and have figured out ways to communicate with each other, we are able to discuss and write about our fear of death.  We tell stories (myths) about things in feeble attempts to justify our beliefs, values, and fears.  Some have a basis in fact, some do not.  Most are exaggerated, some are mere fabrication.  Some are good stories, and should be taken to heart and moral lessons withdrawn.  Few should be taken literally.

I do not need a structure for what I know in my heart to be the right way to treat both other beings and the planet.  I have seen human beings do horrible things both to each other and other living things.  Some people find comfort within the structure of Religious Doctrine (or Dogma, depending), and for them, particularly if it gives them a reason to be better humans while on this earth, it is a good path to choose.  I know the right way to be without the necessity of that structure.  Not that I haven't failed at times in my life, but I can honestly look at myself in the mirror every morning and know that I have treated people as well as they will allow me to treat them.  I remove myself from the others.  I think that most everyone has goodness in them, they just forget where it is, and how to find it sometimes, and Religion can help them. Some people do not have any good in them.  They don't need to be here.

I think we get one chance, and this is it.  Do the right thing.  Touch people kindly in whatever way you are able.  Leave something good here for the children and all the other living things we share space with.  People will remember you if you do these things.  The memories are what matters...make them good ones.

And just when I was beginning to think there was no one on this planet that thought like me.... thanks for the thoughtful insight. I hope I get to meet you some day.

[SPIDERMAN]

And just when I was beginning to think there was no one on this planet that thought like me.... thanks for the thoughtful insight. I hope I get to meet you some day.

SEULTRA
            Beyond thinking like TC, what's your $0.02. I know it's not always easy to dig down and open up and let a bunch of strangers know what you're thinking, but damn dude, it feels good sometimes to vent a bit. But even if you don't, Thanks for participating.

B B

[SneakyPete]

I would imagine given the demographics of H-D riders in general, and more to the point, CVO owners that a lot of you find yourself in my position. My daughters are adults and now I'm feeling to some degree;  Now what ?  Yes, this insane addiction I have to my H-D's is filling the void but for some time I've been pondering what my goal(s) are or should be for the remainder of my life. This site often offers a better glimpse of life than any other form of information dissemination available to me. Given the cross section of society represented within the membership one can glean some valuable life lessons as well as all of the usefull information we share about CVO's and Harley-Davidson motorcycles in general. Not that he is the only example, but I single out JR as someone who has opened my eyes to being a better person. It's one thing to say you're a Christian as many do, it's another thing to actually be one. And by that I mean actually practice the things Christianity teaches us in loving our fellow man and doing unto others and so forth. So lately my goal is simply to become a better man. To be straightforward and honest in everything I do and to put into practice the things I expound upon in some of my musings on this site. I do not know where this is going to lead, only that it is the path I have chosen for myself for now and the future. It is a path without a roadmap, for much as I respect JR, I do not consider myself a Christian. I have a deep faith in GOD and a belief in the natural order of things. But I do not believe in one true religion as being the path to heaven. There is much good in the teachings of Christ and lessons for us all, but there is also good in the teachings of some of the other of the world's great religions. I truly hope that in posting this, I do not upset anyone. It is certainly not my intent. The greatness of America is that it derives it's strength from it's diversity, not from it's sameness. Don't know if any of this touches a cord with anyone else, but it's something that's been coming together in my mind since I was in the ICU after my knee surgery. While it might not seem it since I'm known for running off on these kind of posts, some of what I've stated here has taken me awhile to be willing to admit openly. But in deciding to be a better man, I also have to be willing to state who and what I am.

B B

BB, it never ceases to amaze me when people express their beliefs in a forum like this that I find pieces of my own beliefs in each one.  Probably for the same reason we share the brotherhood of riding on two wheels and congregate on this site.   I would, however, like to comment on the first portion of your original post. I too, have raised three adults and find myself searching for what to do next.  Similar to your experience, two years ago I developed a DVT in my leg which I ignored until a clot broke loose and went to my lungs.  Next thing I know I am in the ICU and my doctor is telling my wife of 29 years that he will do everything he can do, but I might not make it.  Well here I am, mainly due to my belief that it just wasn't my time and God was giving me another chance.  But another chance to do what?  I don't know.  Two years ago I never thought of riding a motorcycle, today I put more miles on my bike than I do on my car.  Like TC, I am surrounded by those who do not practice what they preach and the hypocrisy of it all has turned me off to "practicing" any particular religion.  For me, I am going to do the best I can and treat others as I would like them to treat me, do what is just and fair, then when it is my time, I will let God decide if I make the grade.  I really believe that's all we can do. 

[SEULTRA]

SEULTRA
            Beyond thinking like TC, what's your $0.02. I know it's not always easy to dig down and open up and let a bunch of strangers know what you're thinking, but damn dude, it feels good sometimes to vent a bit. But even if you don't, Thanks for participating.

B B

Well... since you asked...
A little background... I was raised in a working class family and lived on the poor side of the tracks. We had what I call a Saturday Evening Post family... a Chevrolet in the driveway and a Collie dog in the yard. I was a boy scout that attained the rank of Life scout, belonged to a scout honor organization called Order of the Arrow, read and studied the bible (and can still quote many passages), went to Sunday school and church every Sunday, sang in the choir, belonged to a church youth organization, polished my shoes every Saturday night to get ready for Sunday and wore hand-me-down church clothes. I had the all American upbringing and foundation.
Why do I give you this background? To help you understand that when I talk about what I believe in today that it is based on a background of exposure to a certain lifestyle and upbringing. I was brought up a certain way and my beliefs have evolved. I'm content and secure in my values and beliefs and that's a good place to be in my book. What do I believe? Well much of what TC said speaks to it. I believe people have the right to practice whatever faith they choose but that they need to understand that not all share their faith. When I left home at 17 I looked inwardly and despite my religious upbringing I found that I really didn't believe in any deity and didn't feel the need for organized religion. What I discovered was that I admired people that were honest, caring, loving, cheerful, friendly, helpful and liked to have fun but not at the expense of others, who meant what they said and who stood up and defended those that couldn't stand up for themselves. I decided that I wanted these be my guiding principals in my life and they have served me well.
I found I didn't like liars, cheaters, deceivers and those who were content to enrich themselves at the expense of others and I avoid their company.
I have most certainly faltered along life's path from time to time but overall I feel good about who I am and what I've done with my life. I served my country honorably for 22 years and raised a fine son that I am immensely proud of. I married my high school sweetheart and we just celebrated 35 years together. I have 3 wonderful granddaughters. How can I ask for more?
So.... that's where I'm coming from. Remember... you asked.

[SPIDERMAN]

Well... since you asked...
A little background... I was raised in a working class family and lived on the poor side of the tracks. We had what I call a Saturday Evening Post family... a Chevrolet in the driveway and a Collie dog in the yard. I was a boy scout that attained the rank of Life scout, belonged to a scout honor organization called Order of the Arrow, read and studied the bible (and can still quote many passages), went to Sunday school and church every Sunday, sang in the choir, belonged to a church youth organization, polished my shoes every Saturday night to get ready for Sunday and wore hand-me-down church clothes. I had the all American upbringing and foundation.
Why do I give you this background? To help you understand that when I talk about what I believe in today that it is based on a background of exposure to a certain lifestyle and upbringing. I was brought up a certain way and my beliefs have evolved. I'm content and secure in my values and beliefs and that's a good place to be in my book. What do I believe? Well much of what TC said speaks to it. I believe people have the right to practice whatever faith they choose but that they need to understand that not all share their faith. When I left home at 17 I looked inwardly and despite my religious upbringing I found that I really didn't believe in any deity and didn't feel the need for organized religion. What I discovered was that I admired people that were honest, caring, loving, cheerful, friendly, helpful and liked to have fun but not at the expense of others, who meant what they said and who stood up and defended those that couldn't stand up for themselves. I decided that I wanted these be my guiding principals in my life and they have served me well.
I found I didn't like liars, cheaters, deceivers and those who were content to enrich themselves at the expense of others and I avoid their company.
I have most certainly faltered along life's path from time to time but overall I feel good about who I am and what I've done with my life. I served my country honorably for 22 years and raised a fine son that I am immensely proud of. I married my high school sweetheart and we just celebrated 35 years together. I have 3 wonderful granddaughters. How can I ask for more?
So.... that's where I'm coming from. Remember... you asked.

You'll find a lot of bikers who were scouts. Didn't have the whole issue with the gay thing back then. I was an Eagle Scout, Bronze and Silver palms. Order of the Arrow (WWW remember what the words are ?) We had a 66 Chevy wagon and my folks always had Beagles. My dad loved to listen to em howl when they got on trail. Mom went to YWCA meetings once a month and my dad coached little league. Mom dragged us off to church every Sunday ( her grandfather was a Baptist Minister- - had jis own church in Winchendon Mass although we lived in Maine. Folks have a little cracker box house I grew up in in Portland and a huge " summer " place ( camp in Maine lingo) on Sebago Lake they stay in so long as the lake's not frozen. I never heard my dad swear till I was in high school and don't think my mom's ever uttered a cuss word. Saw my first unclothed woman at the county fair when I was about 16. Me and the boys snuck in under the tent flap. Total jock in high school and played football and was a weight man at the University of Maine Orono. Sounds all too Norman Rockwell compared to the way my kids grew up. For whatever reason I found it necessary to be a 1% Biker for 15 years. Wierd though because my kids are further ahead in life than I was at their age and seem pretty grounded. Guess I was fairly strict with them since I knew where the tracks were and what was on the other side in a big way. So now they're grown although the youngest moved back in a month ago. ( no problem with me, but she and her mom sure do go at it sometimes) Anyway, someone once asked if an unexamined life was worth living. Absolutely - - I wish I were capable of it sometimes. How easy it must be to get up everyday and just BE . No thought, no worry, just live. But then I wonder if people like that actually live or simply exist. Whatever suits each in their own way, so long as it doesn't affect me or run the world down the wrong path. Anyway, I think a lot. Funny thing, of all people I saw Cher on TV on one of those interview shows like Larry King or something. The interviewer asked her what she wanted out of life now, did she want a partner etc and she said. Yes she was hoping to meet a man who thought deep thoughts. Typical Cher, but I got what she meant. Anyway, it's cool to read what folks have got to say about just life in general. Makes me think of that John Denver song. " I've been lately thinking about my lifetime - - - - lie there by the fire, and watch the evening tire while all my friends and my old lady sit and pass the pipe around "  Sometimes this site makes me feel like I'm sittin by the fire listening to my friends pass the time of day. Thanks for that, all of you

B B

[Midnight Rider]

B B....here's some Lyrics you might find interesting/thought provoking...

What would it gain me
If I was to go
Like Jacob of old
To the well of the world
To wax halls where candles
Burn on through the day
To light you a path
So you'd never lose your way

I was down in the valley
Where the shadows are long
The birds in the harp tree
Were singing this song
There is time to deliver
Time to receive
All that you're lacking
Of whatever you need

Turn around
Bye the bye
You'll still
See the sea
As it was in the dawning
As it always will be

So raise up your bottle
And drink down the blood
You planted the vine here
In spite of the flood
Turn an ear to the harp tree
An eye to the wall
The songs in the singing
Or nowhere at all

No where to come from
No place to retire
No shelter nowhere
Except in the fire
The birds in the harp tree
Can finish their song
Then rest in its branches
Which is where they belong

But where can a man go
That's sweet to his soul
When his time is not ready
But he's still turning old
Here's a dram for the piper
And a tune for his lady
Outside the thin walls
The waves are still raging

Here's one for the harp tree
And one for his song
One for the morning
When the night was too long
Here's one for the candle
That lights you to bed
And one for the sword
That hangs over your head

Author: Robert Hunter

[harleydiva]

I am a very spiritual person and believe in the Golden Rule.

My father was a Southern Baptist preacher who preached hell, fire and damnation.  He, along with many of the deacons in the church, were extreme hypocrits.  My father had two faces ... the one that the church members and the public saw, and the one that his family saw. 

To this day it baffles me that there are so many demoninations, some even believing that if you are not a member of their demonination you are going to hell.  If all of these people indeed believe there is a God and are Christians, why isn't there just one church?

[SPIDERMAN]

I am a very spiritual person and believe in the Golden Rule.

My father was a Southern Baptist preacher who preached hell, fire and damnation.  He, along with many of the deacons in the church, were extreme hypocrits.  My father had two faces ... the one that the church members and the public saw, and the one that his family saw. 

To this day it baffles me that there are so many demoninations, some even believing that if you are not a member of their demonination you are going to hell.  If all of these people indeed believe there is a God and are Christians, why isn't there just one church?

Ahhhhhhhhhh thre crux of what I've been asking all along

[HogBreath]

Just food for thought. There are many many churches and denominations out there, but, there is only one truth.

P.S. I don't believe just one denominations will go to heaven.

[SEULTRA]

BB... Yes, I do remember what WWW stands for and still never utter the words to anyone other than a fellow OA member. Isn't that something? Some things just stick with you. Eagle with palms huh?? Impressive! I know the kind of effort it takes to attain that and it's all the more impressive that it's done at an age when others are caught up with the frills & fluff of adolescence. Interesting that you were a 1% biker. Funny how life takes us in different directions. I had always wanted to be a police officer but never did. Life just took me in a different direction. It used to bother me but now I just look at it with interest and figure that perhaps it was just meant to be.
I like this thread. It offers insight into others perspectives and values. I like hearing about the way others grew up and where they are at today. I'd like to hear from others & hope they chime in.
  Diva ... I too try to live by the golden rule. It's a solid, grounded principle that can really make a difference in our lives. 

Bikers ... I love 'em!

[MJZ]

BB, very interesting topic. I appreciate you bringing this open discussion forth. Like many of us on this site, I'm a baby boomer that has spent 56 years searching for my "happy place". I've walked a lot of miles down many paths looking for the right answers for me and at this point in my life, I think I have finally figured out the so called "happy place" for me is inner peace. The really hard question is how to find it; religion, emotional security, material security, relationships, etc. Since I am still on this journey, I really appreciate the thoughts posted.
Again Brian, great topic and thanks for opening the box thus providing a venue in which we can search and share. 

[harleydiva]

Inner peace, emotional security, relationships all go hand in hand.  My mother always said I was "tender hearted".  A good heart goes a long way in acquiring inner peace if it is shared.       From reading all of the posts, it seems that everyone has his or her way of acquiring peace. 

Peace to all of my CVO cyberfriends and to those friends with whom we've met and ridden.       

[SPIDERMAN]

BB, very interesting topic. I appreciate you bringing this open discussion forth. Like many of us on this site, I'm a baby boomer that has spent 56 years searching for my "happy place". I've walked a lot of miles down many paths looking for the right answers for me and at this point in my life, I think I have finally figured out the so called "happy place" for me is inner peace. The really hard question is how to find it; religion, emotional security, material security, relationships, etc. Since I am still on this journey, I really appreciate the thoughts posted.
Again Brian, great topic and thanks for opening the box thus providing a venue in which we can search and share. 

Thanks for the compliment. It'd be great if more folks would join in, but most folks are reticent when it comes to talking religion and politics believing them to be a sure fire way to argument and strife. My whole point with this thread was to see if we might find a way to have an intelligent and friendly discussion of one of those subjects, and maybe just a philisophical chat about life in general. So far the folks that have responded have lived up to my hope. I'm hoping more will join in.

Vaya con Dios
                        B B

[HUBBARD]

Ahhhhhhhhhh thre crux of what I've been asking all along

I'm an amateur on the Bible, but I have read it from cover to cover once.  Since that I sorta' read my favorite passages.  My reading time of that Great Document did not produce any particular denominations.  Where they all came from is a mystery to me.  Later--HUBBARD       

[harleydiva]

I'm an amateur on the Bible, but I have read it from cover to cover once.  Since that I sorta' read my favorite passages.  My reading time of that Great Document did not produce any particular denominations.  Where they all came from is a mystery to me.  Later--HUBBARD       

I agree...I don't understand why believers do not come together as one.  It seems more like a competition as to how many folks can be drawn to one demonination.  I'm getting off my 

[MJZ]

I agree...I don't understand why believers do not come together as one.  It seems more like a competition as to how many folks can be drawn to one demonination (some might call that a freudian slip) .  I'm getting off my 

Right now we have two of the biggest Southern Baptist Congregations in the world locked into a major war with each other. Complete with allegations of minister child molestation, embezzlement, drugs and under the table payoff scams. These two congregations (Bellevue and Germantown Baptist) are at it worse than Israel and the Arabs. Boards have resigned, criminal charges have been filed and several pastors have quit and been fired. Because the congregations are so large, the local media has been afraid to report much on it but what has been reported has been better than anything on TV.

[Hoist!]

The world's been around over 5 billion years, they've only been making motorcycles for just over 100! They've only been really good for the last 50. I know what I'm doing here!

All the denominations were created by men to promise salvation and make money on and control weaker people. There's either right or wrong! You treat your fellow man the way you expect to be treated and live every day like it's your last, and you'll live a fulfilled life. We don't have to understand why we're here. We only have to realize that by being here, acting right, and understanding this, makes the world a better place and allows you to enjoy life!  Hoist!

[harleydiva]

Right now we have two of the biggest Southern Baptist Congregations in the world locked into a major war with each other. Complete with allegations of minister child molestation, embezzlement, drugs and under the table payoff scams. These two congregations (Bellevue and Germantown Baptist) are at it worse than Israel and the Arabs. Boards have resigned, criminal charges have been filed and several pastors have quit and been fired. Because the congregations are so large, the local media has been afraid to report much on it but what has been reported has been better than anything on TV.

I can relate since I used to live in Memphis.  Bellevue has always been like "Hollywood".  I also heard that something negative is going on at Central Church on Winchester.

[MJZ]

I can relate since I used to live in Memphis.  Bellevue has always been like "Hollywood".  I also heard that something negative is going on at Central Church on Winchester.

It went under several years ago and the 50 million Worth of buildings and property was bought by a organization called World Overcomers, a very huge black church that is at war with the huge minority church, Church Of God In Christ. (who's grand bishop "the apostle J O Patterson) just bought a house for over 3 million. That is not the unusual part but he reportedly paid CASH, a truckload of grocery bags filled with 10, 20 and 100 dollar bills were brought to the closing. Rumor is since it is a church, it never raised the attention of IRS.

Which is why I have such a high opinion of organized religion. I feel organized religion was invented as a tool to control society. Hey, ever since man started walking upright some men have been given the perceived authority to right the rules for civilization. The bible( Both versions), Koran, etc. were all written by men to use as a tool to control the masses. Of course men like Hitler, Allah, The Iatolas, Ms. Hillary, Mussolini, Attila The Hun, etc. were also given this so-called power and insight to write a set of rules to live by.

[Hoist!]

It went under several years ago and the 50 million Worth of buildings and property was bought by a organization called World Overcomers, a very huge black church that is at war with the huge minority church, Church Of God In Christ. (who's grand bishop "the apostle J O Patterson) just bought a house for over 3 million. That is not the unusual part but he reportedly paid CASH, a truckload of grocery bags filled with 10, 20 and 100 dollar bills were brought to the closing. Rumor is since it is a church, it never raised the attention of IRS.

Which is why I have such a high opinion of organized religion. I feel organized religion was invented as a tool to control society. Hey, ever since man started walking upright some men have been given the perceived authority to right the rules for civilization. The bible( Both versions), Koran, etc. were all written by men to use as a tool to control the masses. Of course men like Hitler, Allah, The Iatolas, Ms. Hillary, Mussolini, Attila The Hun, etc. were also given this so-called power power and insight to right a set of rules to live by.

Exactly, making it easy for the strong to prey on the weak. All of this dividing societies instead of uniting them! And all in the name of their denominations and salvation. Hoist!

[harleydiva]

It went under several years ago and the 50 million Worth of buildings and property was bought by a organization called World Overcomers, a very huge black church that is at war with the huge minority church, Church Of God In Christ. (who's grand bishop "the apostle J O Patterson) just bought a house for over 3 million. That is not the unusual part but he reportedly paid CASH, a truckload of grocery bags filled with 10, 20 and 100 dollar bills were brought to the closing. Rumor is since it is a church, it never raised the attention of IRS.

Which is why I have such a high opinion of organized religion. I feel organized religion was invented as a tool to control society. Hey, ever since man started walking upright some men have been given the perceived authority to right the rules for civilization. The bible( Both versions), Koran, etc. were all written by men to use as a tool to control the masses. Of course men like Hitler, Allah, The Iatolas, Ms. Hillary, Mussolini, Attila The Hun, etc. were also given this so-called power power and insight to right a set of rules to live by.

That wasn't the negative that I was talking about...had something to do with the previous minister at Central.  My daughter's father still lives in  Memphis, and she told me this morning that Central Church was no longer.

[SPIDERMAN]

Exactly, making it easy for the strong to prey on the weak. All of this dividing societies instead of uniting them! And all in the name of their denominations and salvation. Hoist!

Easy there Howie, look at the trouble Governor Jesse Ventura got in for saying religion was for weak minded individuals. Of course he went on to explain that faith was a great thing and that his comment was aimed at organized religion that preys on the weaknesses of it's members. You know reading the posts about the Baptists got me wondering. My great grandfather was a Baptist minister as I mentioned earlier and I remember going to his church at least once during a family reunion. One of the oldest Baptist Churches in the United States is in Portland Maine and yet my mom took us to a Congregationalist Church. What was her skism with her own family about there ? Now I've gotta ask my dear old 81 year old mother a bunch of tough questions - - - - - or maybe not, the answer really doesn't matter does it. I do like the way this thread is getting folks to think and join in.

B B

[Hoist!]

Easy there Howie, look at the trouble Governor Jesse Ventura got in for saying religion was for weak minded individuals. Of course he went on to explain that faith was a great thing and that his comment was aimed at organized religion that preys on the weaknesses of it's members. You know reading the posts about the Baptists got me wondering. My great grandfather was a Baptist minister as I mentioned earlier and I remember going to his church at least once during a family reunion. One of the oldest Baptist Churches in the United States is in Portland Maine and yet my mom took us to a Congregationalist Church. What was her skism with her own family about there ? Now I've gotta ask my dear old 81 year old mother a bunch of tough questions - - - - - or maybe not, the answer really doesn't matter does it. I do like the way this thread is getting folks to think and join in.

B B

Your right, it's that and more. I try real hard to stay out of these philosophical discussions. My beliefs are not the most popular in the world. They're hard to accept by those that believe in organized denominational beliefs. Don't want to offend others, but you're soliciting all to contibute their beliefs to this subject. Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness!. Family, friends and Harleys! Live and let live! And GTF out of the left lane!!! I know why I'm here brother and appreciate every last minute of it! Hoist!

[Midnight Rider]

"The Church", no matter the denomination, has gotten further and further away from one of it's main purposes, at least in my view.  In the rural South, there are small churches scattered about in the countryside...most are Baptist (some are what we call down here "Foot Washing", or Primitive Baptist), with some others intermingled.  Those churches serve(d) as a gathering place for the communities/farms in the surrounding countryside.  Yes, they were places of worship, but they were also places where people could gather once a week and see how their neighbors were doing, if they needed any help, if anyone was sick, etc.  People would bring what food they had to share outside under the big trees.  People genuinely caring for each other, and the church was a means for this to happen.  The Dogma didn't matter so much...it was all about Love.  It was Real.  There are still places like that in Alabama today.

In stark contrast sit what I sarcastically refer to as "Warehouses For The Lord"...HUGE buildings, with thousands of members, a good majority of the membership there for all the wrong reasons, the church more concerned with it's own financial goals/aspirations than with any one member, concerning themselves with "missions" in other countries when there are people who need help siting in their backdoor...out of touch with the meaning of it all.  Committees set up to deem whether a person is "worthy" of the church's assistance.  It's all Big Business, and some sort of sick competition to see who can be the biggest, most ornate, and most pretentious.  It all makes me sick, and even more cynical about Religion and it's purpose in modern day social structure.  It will be a cold day before anyone will ever see me shadow the door of such a place.

My Church is outside, whether it's sitting on the beach listening to the sounds of the ocean's never ending rhythm, standing in a small, cold river with a fly rod in hand, or riding my bike through tree lined two lane roads.  My Church is sitting next to someone who loves me, whether it be human or another animal.  If there is a force in the Universe who's noticing, I think my reverence for those moments will carry more weight than whether I tithe 10% of my income...

[harleydiva]

"The Church", no matter the denomination, has gotten further and further away from one of it's main purposes, at least in my view.  In the rural South, there are small churches scattered about in the countryside...most are Baptist (some are what we call down here "Foot Washing", or Primitive Baptist), with some others intermingled.  Those churches serve(d) as a gathering place for the communities/farms in the surrounding countryside.  Yes, they were places of worship, but they were also places where people could gather once a week and see how their neighbors were doing, if they needed any help, if anyone was sick, etc.  People would bring what food they had to share outside under the big trees.  People genuinely caring for each other, and the church was a means for this to happen.  The Dogma didn't matter so much...it was all about Love.  It was Real.  There are still places like that in Alabama today.

In stark contrast sit what I sarcastically refer to as "Warehouses For The Lord"...HUGE buildings, with thousands of members, a good majority of the membership there for all the wrong reasons, the church more concerned with it's own financial goals/aspirations than with any one member, concerning themselves with "missions" in other countries when there are people who need help siting in their backdoor...out of touch with the meaning of it all.  Committees set up to deem whether a person is "worthy" of the church's assistance.  It's all Big Business, and some sort of sick competition to see who can be the biggest, most ornate, and most pretentious.  It all makes me sick, and even more cynical about Religion and it's purpose in modern day social structure.  It will be a cold day before anyone will ever see me shadow the door of such a place.

My Church is outside, whether it's sitting on the beach listening to the sounds of the ocean's never ending rhythm, standing in a small, cold river with a fly rod in hand, or riding my bike through tree lined two lane roads.  My Church is sitting next to someone who loves me, whether it be human or another animal.  If there is a force in the Universe who's noticing, I think my reverence for those moments will carry more weight than whether I tithe 10% of my income...

Well said.   

[Hoist!]

"The Church", no matter the denomination, has gotten further and further away from one of it's main purposes, at least in my view.  In the rural South, there are small churches scattered about in the countryside...most are Baptist (some are what we call down here "Foot Washing", or Primitive Baptist), with some others intermingled.  Those churches serve(d) as a gathering place for the communities/farms in the surrounding countryside.  Yes, they were places of worship, but they were also places where people could gather once a week and see how their neighbors were doing, if they needed any help, if anyone was sick, etc.  People would bring what food they had to share outside under the big trees.  People genuinely caring for each other, and the church was a means for this to happen.  The Dogma didn't matter so much...it was all about Love.  It was Real.  There are still places like that in Alabama today.

In stark contrast sit what I sarcastically refer to as "Warehouses For The Lord"...HUGE buildings, with thousands of members, a good majority of the membership there for all the wrong reasons, the church more concerned with it's own financial goals/aspirations than with any one member, concerning themselves with "missions" in other countries when there are people who need help siting in their backdoor...out of touch with the meaning of it all.  Committees set up to deem whether a person is "worthy" of the church's assistance.  It's all Big Business, and some sort of sick competition to see who can be the biggest, most ornate, and most pretentious.  It all makes me sick, and even more cynical about Religion and it's purpose in modern day social structure.  It will be a cold day before anyone will ever see me shadow the door of such a place.

My Church is outside, whether it's sitting on the beach listening to the sounds of the ocean's never ending rhythm, standing in a small, cold river with a fly rod in hand, or riding my bike through tree lined two lane roads.  My Church is sitting next to someone who loves me, whether it be human or another animal.  If there is a force in the Universe who's noticing, I think my reverence for those moments will carry more weight than whether I tithe 10% of my income...

Very well stated Terry! There's many ways of saying this, but it still creates great controversy by those that can't comprehend this way of thinking. It makes it easier to discuss when there are others that share this viewpoint. Hoist!

[ESJ JESTER]

As a biker out in the open viewing,smelling,feeling  our great natural world around us and as a sailor, harnessing the wind and moving 13tons thru the water using just the Grace that we all have been blessed with  the true meaning of   religion is expressed here in the sharing that goes on among this group.    it dont get much better 

[harleydiva]

As a biker out in the open viewing,smelling,feeling  our great natural world around us and as a sailor, harnessing the wind and moving 13tons thru the water using just the Grace that we all have been blessed with  the true meaning of   religion is expressed here in the sharing that goes on among this group.    it dont get much better 

 

[ggraves427]

What I learned at church this week.
(1) Justice is when you what you deserve.

(2)Grace is when you get what you don't deserve.

[SEULTRA]

What I learned at church this week.
(1) Justice is when you what you deserve.

(2)Grace is when you get what you don't deserve.

Hopefully, it's something good 

[JR]

Hopefully, it's something good 

Grace Always Is!

[ESJ JESTER]

Yes it is

[SPIDERMAN]

Here's a thought. Some people see the Bible as the word of God. I see it as the word of men who believed in Christianity. Is there anything in the history of mankind that could be truly stated as being  the word of God ? 

B b

[Screamin]

Is there anything in the history of mankind that could be truly stated as being  the word of God ? 

B b

Don't know about the word because the Lord's never "spoken" directly to me. I've surely felt his hand and witnessed his work.  I chose to see it when the perfect sunrise comes up over the hills to the east and the same when it goes down. I suppose it could just be a great big old act of accidental physics that causes me to gaze in wonder when I look over the vast valley carved by some mighty or not so mighty river. Could be that it's just a freak of nature those exelerating senses we experience cruising down that lonesome highway in the morning when the dew's fresh and all's right w/ the world. I opt to think it's something more. A little diddy that kind of fits:

I was shocked, confused, bewildered
as I entered Heaven's door,
Not by the beauty of it all,
nor the lights or its decor.
 
But it was the folks in Heaven
who made me sputter and gasp--
the thieves, the liars, the sinners,
the alcoholics, the trash
 
There stood the kid from seventh grade
who swiped my lunch money twice.
Next to him was my old neighbor
who never said anything nice.
 
Herb, who I always thought
was rotting away in hell,
was sitting pretty on cloud nine, l
ooking incredibly well.
 
I nudged Jesus, "What's the deal?
I would love to hear Your take.
How'd all these sinners get up here?
God must've made a mistake.
 
"And why's everyone so quiet, so somber?
Give me a clue."
"Hush, child," said He, "
they're all in shock.
No one thought they'd be seeing you."

Author unknown

[SPIDERMAN]

Hey Screamin, I was thinkin more along the lines of Moses and the 10 Commandments -- you know Mt Sinai, stone tablets, burning bush, all that stuff, but your post is way cool dude. So thanks

B B

PS
    When did people refer to God as Yaweh ?

[JR]

Here's a thought. Some people see the Bible as the word of God. I see it as the word of men who believed in Christianity. Is there anything in the history of mankind that could be truly stated as being  the word of God ? 

B b

Hey Big Buddy! 

The Bible is God’s message for his people. It is made up of 66 books containing stories, prophecy, and guidelines for godly living. From the time of Moses until the Apostle Paul, God inspired people to write down his words so his message could be given to everyone. The Bible was written over a span of hundreds of years beginning around 1466 BC to 100 AD. The Bible is a tool for understanding God’s will for our lives, if we will listen to what it has to say.

The Bible is a special revelation from God. It explains what God is like, how he expects us to act, and the consequences of our either accepting or rejecting his message. The Bible contains hundreds of answers to the big questions in life: Who created the universe? What is the meaning of existence? How can I be sure to spend eternity in heaven?

The Bible is one of the most translated, most read books in the entire world. To people who do not know Jesus Christ, the Bible proclaims the message of his loving and redeeming work. It has touched millions of hearts with its promises of renewal for those who may not have any hope. For Christians, the Bible serves as an excellent guidebook on who God is, what Christ has done for us, and how we should live in order to reflect his wonderful work in us.

The Old Testament is made up of 39 books primarily written in Hebrew. It chronicles the story of God’s work on earth before Jesus was born. Over the course of a thousand years, about 30 writers, including Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, and David, contributed writings to the Old Testament. It can be split into three main sections: History, Poetry, and Prophecy. These people were not Christians yet as Jesus was not yet born. God, thru prophecy pointed them to a Messiah.

The history section begins with Moses’ five books, called the Pentateuch. These books contain the story of God’s creation of the universe, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, the great Flood, and the Israelites’ exodus out of slavery in Egypt. The Pentateuch also contains God’s first laws for his people. These laws were given to Moses in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) and instructed the Israelites to honor God in everything they did.

After the Israelites had moved into the land God had promised them, they became a very powerful nation. Starting with the selection of Saul as the first king of Israel, the history books tell the story of King David, his son Solomon, and the other kings that followed. Some kings, like King Asa, followed God’s laws and were blessed by God. Other kings, like King Ahab, set up idols and disobeyed God’s laws. Because of their disobedience, God said he would end Israel’s reign as a great nation, and it was eventually conquered and enslaved by the empires of Assyria and Babylon.

After the five poetry books come the prophecy books, written by about sixteen different authors. There are the major prophets, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Daniel, who wrote longer books, and there are minor prophets, such as Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, whose books are shorter. These books deal with God’s disappointment in Israel for not keeping his commands, remind the people of God’s unconditional love for them, and foreshadow the coming Messiah who would redeem Israel forever.

The New Testament was written in Greek, and its twenty seven books were most likely written in the span of about fifty years. The New Testament is primarily concerned with the redemptive work of Jesus Christ and the early Christian church, but it also gives wonderful guidance concerning godly living. The New Testament can also be split into three main sections: history, the epistles, and prophecy.

The first four books of the New Testament are the gospels, which tell the story of Jesus’ birth, life, death, and resurrection. They also record the words Jesus spoke to his disciples about following him and continuing his work after his eventual return to heaven. Following the gospels, the beginnings of the early church and the work of Jesus’ disciples in performing miracles and preaching the gospel are recorded in the book of Acts.

Following Acts are the epistles, or letters the Apostle Paul and others wrote to encourage the first Christians in their walk with Jesus Christ. The epistles provide wonderful insights into God’s desires for our everyday activities.

The last book of the New Testament is Revelation, which is a prophetic book detailing Christ’s future return to earth. Which with all that's going on in this world with wars and rumors of wars and Mr Gore pointing out the effects of global warming and the effects it has on our time on this earth....Jesus return may be sooner than you think!

                                                      JR

[JR]

Is there anything in the history of mankind that could be truly stated as being  the word of God ? 

B b

Many people claim that all truth is relative and that there is no such thing as a completely authoritative God. For these people, Christianity is a matter of opinion or preference, for there is no one set of beliefs that are absolutely true.
But God has given us the glorious universe as a reminder of his authority. We also are given an inner longing for a relationship with him. Even though God gives these signs to us, some still refuse to listen to him and act according to his will. This is where the Bible comes in. The Bible is God’s “special revelation.” In simple words that everyone can understand, the Bible reminds us of our sinful nature and of our daily responsibility to God and his commands. From reading the Bible, we know God is all-powerful, and that he has unlimited authority over all people. When we reject what the Bible has to say to us, we are in essence rejecting God himself and then foolishly denying the authority he has over all of Creation.

When we read the Bible, we see that people rebelling against God is nothing new. The Israelites wandered through the wilderness because they did not believe God would protect them. King Ahab erected idols to false gods. Jonah refused to go to Nineveh despite God’s command. Ignoring God’s promises of blessing for us, we consistently disobey him and follow our own desires and wishes. The Bible is a wonderful reminder of God’s eternal authority over all people.

Many of the same people who deny the authority of God also say that the Bible is not absolutely true because humans-prone to human error-wrote it down. While it is true that the biblical authors were not perfect people, the Bible is clear in stating that it is a work inspired by God and is therefore perfect.

The Apostle Paul writes that all Scripture is “God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16), and Peter explains that “prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21). This includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Because God loves us, he would never intentionally lead us astray by giving us a Bible that was not absolutely true. His Word exists as an authoritative guide so we may know the truth.

Another word for “testament” is “covenant“ or “promise.” The Bible is a book about God’s covenant with his people-first with the Israelites and eventually with all people. The Bible helps us understand what God expects from us in order to maintain this covenant and foster a wonderful relationship with him.
The Old Testament talks about many covenants, but one of the most important ones is God’s covenant with the Israelites that he initiated with the Ten Commandments. After giving his first laws to the people of Israel, God said, “Take care to follow the commands, decrees, and laws I give you today. If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers” (Deuteronomy 7:11-12). When Israel followed these guidelines and worshiped God alone, their kingdom thrived. They moved into the Promised Land of Canaan and became a very powerful nation. When Israel broke the covenant by being disobedient to God, he sent enemies to attack and enslave them. The Old Testament describes how God gave Israel numerous opportunities to keep their covenant with him and how they were unwilling to do so. Because they were constantly sinful and rebellious, the Israelites had no hope of earning God’s favor.

Even when the Israelites were going through a very tough time, God never forgot them, and he assured them they would eventually be redeemed. God sent prophets to tell of the “new covenant” which would come in the form of a Messiah.

Jesus Christ was the primary instrument of this new covenant. By coming to earth and dying on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice for all people, Jesus did away with the need for man to constantly sacrifice animals or grains to God. God’s new covenant required people to simply believe in Jesus Christ. The New Testament provides the details on God’s new covenant available to all people, not just the Israelites.

God’s covenant cannot be changed. We can accept or reject what the Bible tells us, but we cannot change it. God has promised that if anyone joins his covenant, they will ultimately prosper, and he will care for them. But for those that do not accept this covenant, God promises harsh judgment.

The Bible, then, is the story of God’s covenant with people-how it was first established with the Israelites and was later extended to all people through the redeeming work of Jesus Christ. When we read and follow what it has to say, we are participating in the very same covenant as the people in the Bible. The Word of God truly is eternal. God Bless!

                                               JR

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Well at my age I have nothing more precious then my time ...and I plan on spending it wisely 


Bubba

[JR]

PS
    When did people refer to God as Yaweh ?

Wow, B b, Good question! It actually is a four letter word! In the Hebrew writings it was YHWH. Since it was 4 constanants and no vowels it's called tetragrammaton known as the four letter word for Yahweh. It was regarded  extreamly sacrid and most Jews would not pronounce it in fear of misusing it and breaking one of the 10 commandments.


The Encyclopedia Britanica, Volume 23, page 867, confirms the fact that the proper, original Name Yahweh was replaced with common substitutes:
YAHWEH, the proper name of the God of Israel; it is composed of four consonants (YHWH) in Hebrew and is therefore called the tetragrammaton...The name Yahweh later ceased to be used by the Jews for two somewhat contradictory reasons. As Judaism began to become a universal religion, the proper name Yahweh tended to be replaced by the common noun Elohim, meaning "God," which could apply to foreign deities and therefore could be used to demonstrate the universal sovereignty of Israel's God over all others. At the same time, the divine name was increasingly regarded as too sacred to be uttered, for fear of profanation, and in the synagogue ritual it was replaced by Adonai ("my Lord"), which was translated Kyrios ("Lord") in the Septuagint. The occurence of the four sacred letters in the text of the Bible itself could not be thus replaced, but the same fear of profanation caused Masoretes (6th-8th centuries a.d.) to change the pronunciation by replacing the vowels (which in Hebrew are marked beneath or above the consonants if not omitted altogether) with the vowels of Adonai (or, more rarely, the vowels of Elohim).

[SPIDERMAN]

JR
   It's also in the Torah

B B

[JR]

JR
   It's also in the Torah

B B

10-4! Thanks for bringing forth a great question buddy! It was interesting to find the amount of information when I researched. Bless Ya Bro!

                                                     JR

[SPIDERMAN]

10-4! Thanks for bringing forth a great question buddy! It was interesting to find the amount of information when I researched. Bless Ya Bro!

                                                     JR

Brother JR
                  I seek only to broaden your horizons, not to rock your foundations. Look out from your house of tranquility to all that is before you

B B

[JR]

Brother JR
                  I seek only to broaden your horizons, not to rock your foundations. Look out from your house of tranquility to all that is before you

B B

I Love You my Big Buddy! No worrries here. My foundation is planted on the rock!!! Luke 6:46-49 God Bless Bro!

                                                      JR

[HUBBARD]

SPIDERMAN,
  I'm not as well versed in the Scriptures as JR, especially when it comes to quoting Chapter and Verse.  I commend JR for that too, as it displays his dedication and belief in that Great Document as the infallible Word of God.  The things I learned as a child such as John 3:16, the 23rd Psalms, and the 10 Commandments, were all just words I committed to memory, because that was what I was told to do.  As a child, I thought Prayer was closing your eyes, bowing your head, and saying some words.  I had no idea who, or what I was saying those words too.  I didn't "Grow Up", as most kids do.  I was forced into becoming a "Man."  It was that, be a convict, or die.  Luckily, I chose to "Grow Up."  That said, here is what I have come to believe about my undeserved salvation.  Had it not been for my Mother's unrelenting Prayers for my sorry a$$, I would not be here, and that's a fact.  The result of those Prayers have led me to believe that Christ died for ME.  I'm not saying if you don't beleive as I believe you're doomed, I'm just telling you what I believe.  I am in no way, trying to force my beliefs on you.  The root of my belief is, Christ was God, and He walked this Earth as a Man, in the Flesh.  While He was a "Man", He was without sin.  Not to say He was not tempted with sin, but He did not succumb to sin.  How could He do that?  He was conceived without sin.  Born of a Virgin, remember?  Now, how could He be the recompense for my sins?  I believe it is because He was conceived by the Holy Spirt, born of a Virgin, suffered under Pointus Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried.  On the 3rd day, He arose from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the Right Hand of God the Father Almighty.  Those 3 days before He ascended, He descended into hell, and suffered every temptation, affliction, addiction, and disease known to man today, before He ascended to Heaven.  Else how could He forgive us when we ask? How could He understand our suffering?  But, the real Hero here, is the Almighty.  Think about what He did.  He made the Sacifice of "ALL" Sacrifices.  He gave His only Son, for our sins.  Would you hand over your precious Children, to be publicly crucified on a cross, while you watched, for all the rotten things you and I have done in our lives, Brian?  I'll answer that for both of us.  "NO!"  You and I can't relate to that degree of sacrifice.  Furthermore, what could be the basis for salvation, or forgiveness, or eternal life, outside of that?  Christians believe in the existence of God, Agnostics want to beleive it, but doubt it, and atheists deny His existence.  I feel sorry for the atheists.  They have no Holidays.  Anyway, I'm comfortable in what I beleive to be right.  I hope you find your comfort zone.  Later--HUBBARD       

           

[SPIDERMAN]

Hey Hubbard,
               Great post. Thanks for joining in. Hope you or nobody else thinks I am disrespecting Christians. Hell I was raised by the granddaughter of a Baptist minister and went to Bible School and then church every Sunday. I am not an antheist, not an agnostic. My point in all this, is that I do not believe that Jews are either of those as well, nor Buddhists,nor Muslims and a host of others. The term for Christians is actually Judeo-Christian which pays homage to the fact that Christianity owes a lot of it's beliefs to Judaism. Answer me this Carl, did JR's post about the origins of Yahweh bring to light anything you had not previously known. If it did, then you see my purpose in these discussions. I'm not out to convert anyone to another religion. I'm not out to disrespect anyone's beliefs. The title of this thread is " What to do with your life ?"  I want to be a better man. I believe in order to do that, I need to understand my fellow man better. I need to open my mind to new ideas. At 53, that is not an easy thing to do. I'm trying and from what I can see so are others. That's all I was hoping for.

Vaya con Dios Hub,
                            B B

[JR]

SPIDERMAN,
  I'm not as well versed in the Scriptures as JR, especially when it comes to quoting Chapter and Verse.  I commend JR for that too, as it displays his dedication and belief in that Great Document as the infallible Word of God.            

Hey Hub! I also enjoyed your post and appreciate you jumping in. I would however like to set something straight. I can not willfully quote scripture. My memory is not that good. Killed too many brain cells in my walk before Christ! My Lord will recall scripture to me that I have read and I will seek it in the bible until I find the correct verse! I don't want to mislead anyone what I'm not! I am a simple minded man and realize that's the way God made me! Thanks again for sharing! God Bless!

                                                        JR

[Screamin]

So kinda, I think, back to it. Hmm what to do? Well, clearly enjoy yourself. If it ain't fun, don't. Stay healthy cause there just lots and lots of hardships if your not. Do good things for people and the world. Big and little, there's satisfaction in good deeds. Don't hurt anyone, unless they really, really have it coming. And then be prepared for the consequences. Love you wife and your family w/ all of your heart. They may just trample the heck out of it but the risk it well worth it. Ride your motorcycle and soak up all that the road has to throw at you. You know what that means and is all about. Make peace w/ your folks if it's not too late, I know those that didn't and regret it yet. Soak up this world the best you can. Time's short and there's so much to see and do. Find satisfaction in small pleasures. A sunset, figuring out the dang computer, a quiet sip of good whiskey. Little happy things add up. Avoid a$$holes, and that's a tough one, so many people have nothing good to say and are caught up in all of the B.S. around us. Forget about perfection, whatever that is. According to many, only one perfect person ever walked this earth and brother neither of us is he.

I'm about spent for now. Reading the above I need to get busy.

[Hoist!]

So kinda, I think, back to it. Hmm what to do? Well, clearly enjoy yourself. If it ain't fun, don't. Stay healthy cause there just lots and lots of hardships if your not. Do good things for people and the world. Big and little, there's satisfaction in good deeds. Don't hurt anyone, unless they really, really have it coming. And then be prepared for the consequences. Love you wife and your family w/ all of your heart. They may just trample the heck out of it but the risk it well worth it. Ride your motorcycle and soak up all that the road has to throw at you. You know what that means and is all about. Make peace w/ your folks if it's not too late, I know those that didn't and regret it yet. Soak up this world the best you can. Time's short and there's so much to see and do. Find satisfaction in small pleasures. A sunset, figuring out the dang computer, a quiet sip of good whiskey. Little happy things add up. Avoid a$$holes, and that's a tough one, so many people have nothing good to say and are caught up in all of the B.S. around us. Forget about perfection, whatever that is. According to many, only one perfect person ever walked this earth and brother neither of us is he.

I'm about spent for now. Reading the above I need to get busy.

Gotta move far away from NYC for that one! But great post, common sense for those that get it! Hoist!

[VaEagle]

Somebody sent this to me in email and I thought it might fit with the thoughts of this thread.

When things in your life seem almost too much to handle, when 24 hours in a day are not enough, remember the mayonnaise jar and the 2 cups of coffee.
 A professor stood before his philosophy class and had some items in front of him.
 When the class began, wordlessly, he picked up a very large and empty mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with golf balls. He then asked the students if the jar was full. They agreed that it was. The professor then picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly. The pebbles rolled into the open areas between the golf balls. He then asked the students again if the jar was full they agreed it was.
 The professor next picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar. Of course, the sand filled up everything else. He asked once more if the jar was full. The students responded with a unanimous "yes."
 The professor then produced two cups of coffee from under the table and poured the entire contents into the jar, effectively filling the empty space between the sand. The students laughed.
 "Now," said the professor, as the laughter subsided, "I want you to recognize that this jar represents your life. The golf balls are the important things- your God, family, your children, your health, your friends, and your favorite passions--things that if everything else was lost and only they remained your life would still be full.
 The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, your house, and your car.
 The sand is everything else -- the small stuff.
 If you put the sand into the jar first," he continued, "there is no room for the pebbles or the golf balls.
 The same goes for life. If you spend all your time and energy on the small stuff, you will never have room for the things that are important to you.
 Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play with your children. Take time to get medical checkups. Take your partner out to dinner.
 Play another 18. There will always be time to clean the house and fix the disposal."
 Take care of the golf balls first -- the things that really matter. Set your priorities. The rest is just sand." One of the students raised her hand and inquired what the coffee represented.
 The professor smiled. "I'm glad you asked. It just goes to show you that no matter how full your life may seem, there's always room for a couple of cups of coffee with a friend."


I hope you all enjoy this.

[HUBBARD]

Screamin',
  Enjoyed your post, and I agree 100%.  It reminded me of one of my Father's sayings which was "Be Honest."  As I grew older, and found an easier, softer way than being Honest, I thought, he would absolutely give me hell.  In the defense of my actions as being quite lucrative, he would frown and tell me every dime I earned dishonestly, would cost me a dollar at the end of the day.  I just laughed and asked him what is Honesty, Old Man?  He told me, "If it ain't so, don't say it.  If it ain't yours, don't take it, and if it ain't right, don't do it."  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD  

[SEULTRA]

Very well stated Terry! There's many ways of saying this, but it still creates great controversy by those that can't comprehend this way of thinking. It makes it easier to discuss when there are others that share this viewpoint. Hoist!

I'm beginning to think there are more of us than we think there are ... others see the same peace and beauty but simply feel more comfortable interpreting it via their religious beliefs.

[CVOJOE]

"If it ain't so, don't say it.  If it ain't yours, don't take it, and if it ain't right, don't do it."  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD 
AMEN BRO!

[The Mysterious Q!]

VA that kind of puts things into perspective for me. Thanks for that.   Later,Q

[Screamin]

Strive for balance.

[Midnight Rider]

The universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it.

M. Aurelius



The pleasantest things in the world are pleasant thoughts: and the great art of life is to have as many of them as possible.

Montaigne

[Midnight Rider]

"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence
in. (No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise
tomorrow. They *know* it's going to rise tomorrow.) When people are
fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds
of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in
doubt."  Robert Pirsig

[djkak]

"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence
in. (No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise
tomorrow. They *know* it's going to rise tomorrow.) When people are
fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds
of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in
doubt."  Robert Pirsig

Like the guy on television last night claiming to be Jesus Christ.

djkak

[Midnight Rider]

This kind of sums it up, written by a minister:

How Important is the Afterlife to Your Faith?
I have noticed a change in funeral and memorial services. Many people request of me that they don't want a funeral but a celebration of life service for their loved ones. When they say funeral they usually mean some kind of sermon that speaks about heaven and hell that you often find in the Bible Belt. Instead they want to acknowledge the life of the person and celebrate that. I notice in this trend that people seem less concerned about the fate of their soul/consciousness after death and more concerned with life itself-- this life. Personally, I find this to be a healthy trend.

Yet Christianity has often focused on the afterlife as being its central concern, particularly avoiding hell and getting into heaven. Many people in the church and without have left that notion behind as a relic of a superstitious past. So what is Christianity without a focus on the afterlife? What does Resurrection symbolize if it is not interwoven with the afterlife?

I addressed this issue in one of my early posts, Choose Your Afterlife . I spoke about it again in Sunday's sermon, "Imagine There's No Heaven " in my series "Beliefs Worth Letting Go in Order to Grow." Here is a snippet on Hell:



Hell is the easiest one for me to let go. With the exception of using it as a swear word or as a symbol for suffering, cruelty, and despair, I have dispensed with it. The idea that God would send people to hell doesn't make sense to me at all. It is a cruel doctrine. The idea that god, as biblical scholar Robert Price put it, who is a cranky theology professor and gives out big rosy "F's" to those who don't have their beliefs correct and sends them down the chute to eternal fire--is weird.

However, not everyone is ready for that. If a belief in hell is the only thing that keeps you from dealing drugs or killing your neighbor, then by all means, keep believing it. If you haven't developed a moral compass on your own nor dealt with your own anxieties, then simply ceasing believing in hell may not be the best thing for you. That is true with all beliefs. If we do not come to terms with the feelings underneath them, then we will simply substitute one belief for another.

But what about Heaven?


Heaven is a bit more complicated. As a minister I know that many people find comfort in the idea that they will see their loved ones again or that they are in heaven and at peace. The idea that heaven is a better place when this life seems unbearable can be a great comfort. If that belief works for you, then keep it.

That sounds perhaps too pragmatic, but I think what works is a good way to evaluate our beliefs. If believing that when we die, there is a better place enables us to get up in the morning, breathe more deeply, enjoy this life better, then by all means believe it. I would add that if there is a heaven, then it is for everyone, including those people we don't like too much.

As far as other beliefs regarding the afterlife, such as reincarnation, or transport to a parallel universe and so forth, I am agnostic. I am not against it, I just don't know. How can I? Again, I am pragmatic. If it works, then believe it. We might, even so, ask why it is important for us. What fear or dissatisfaction does a belief in an afterlife address? We might ask ourselves, do I really need this belief? Again, if you are not ready to address the underlying feelings, be careful about discarding beliefs. They serve a purpose even when we are not conscious of the purpose.
I think the great Apostle Paul needs to be challenged.


My concern with beliefs about an afterlife is that they can (not necessarily so, but they can) lead one to devalue this life. This is my problem with the Apostle Paul when he writes: If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."

Paul, as I read him, did not have a great value for this life. He advised people not to get married because the end was coming. He wrote some wonderful things. But not everything is a keeper. His was an interim ethic. This life is not good, it is coming to an end, so live this one in preparation for the next one.

I don't see things that way anymore. I think that this life is a good life and we should pay attention and enjoy it. Not only that, but we should work to make this life better for others too. We should live as if Earth is our home, because it is. Not only is it our home, but it is the home for all of life as we know it. It is the home for our future generations. I do not devalue life or Earth. It is a good place to be. Selling it short for some belief in an afterlife is irresponsible.
What to do with stories in the Bible regarding the kingdom of God or of heaven or of the New Jerusalem? Are they about our own personal survival? I think not.


I retain the symbol of heaven, not as afterlife, but as quality of life. Heaven for me is Presence. Presence of mind, presence of love, presence of God. Heaven within is what John Shelby Spong calls the courage to live fully and to love wastefully.
Why is it that human beings invented the concepts of afterlife at all? I can think of two reasons at least.

[Midnight Rider]

continued...



Joseph Campbell, the great mythologist, said that the first conscious thought was, "I am." It was a euphoric thought. I am! I exist! Joy! But the second conscious thought followed closely, "Someday I will not exist." I am leads to I am not. The thought, "I am not" creates anxiety. I am and I want to be I am forever. I am not is the end of I am.

Enter religion in all of its forms. Maybe there is a way to beat the I am not. Perhaps even though this life ends, I somehow continue. That is one explanation for an afterlife.

Another explanation has to do with the injustice and unfairness of this life. The great wisdom literature of the Hebrew scriptures, wonderful writings such as Ecclesiastes and Job address the problem of injustice. Why do the good suffer and the wicked prosper? The first painful rule we learn is that life is rarely fair. And that is not satisfactory. If justice is unattainable in this life, then perhaps in the next life all of us will get our just desserts. Notions of karma in the eastern traditions and heaven and hell in the western traditions developed in response to the injustice in this life. Systems of belief and practice developed as a way for us to secure a better standing in the next life.

Heaven and Hell in Islam, Christianity and its derivatives represent ultimate and eternal justice, reward for the good and punishment for the wicked. Two things at least are at work in this business of the afterlife, anxiety for our end, and the dissatisfaction with injustice.

Humanity may be on the verge of growing up and growing out of these beliefs. We don't need heaven, hell, and various theories of afterlife to deal with anxiety and injustice. We need, I believe to fully give ourselves to this life--all of it--to enjoy it and to do good that others may enjoy it and so that future generations may enjoy it as well.

[Special_Ed]

I Hope nobody minds if I share a few thoughts. I haven't been on the site in a while, problems with work have kept me from being able to send much time here. I've missed reading through the pages of comments, jokes and thoughts and in a kind of modern Cyb space way, of spending time with friends. When I came across this thread and began to read I wasn't really sure where it was going to end up. I wanted to read every post and take a little time to reflect on everyone's words and emotions before adding to them.

I was raised Catholic. Catholic school grades 1 through 6, completing all of my sacraments as I was told I had to do. I went through CCD every week, although I never really got anything out of any of it.

The church in which all matters of ceremony took place is still there, a huge, ornate beautiful building. Paintings and gold leaf, life size statues of all of the saints, massive columns. We had my fathers, Uncle's, Aunt's, cousins and all sorts of family friends funerals there, my parents were married there and celebrate Christmas mass at midnight there every year. But for me although this was God's house I have always felt that I could be closer and perhaps commune on better footing when I was out in the woods or in the mountains away from the hypocrisy. I've always felt that I didn't need a building or money to talk with God.

One of the things that comes to mind when relating this topic is when my daughter, Molly was born. I remember watching her take her first breath. Not just being born but watching her as she opened her mouth and drew in that very first breath of air. I remember thinking that there is no possible way that there couldn't be a God, look at this miraculous event. A lot of things have happened since that day, she'll be 15 next month, a lot of things that haven't been so good, divorce, cancer, death, world wide suffering, war. But a lot of good things have happened to. All of them, bad and good have only reinforced my faith.

So I guess to answer your question BB, I most surely believe in God and I believe that, as TC wrote, you only have one chance to get it right. I also get a great amount of comfort from my friend JR, he has given me something that I had lost a long time ago.

I would like to find an organized religion that I could fit into but as soon as people get involved they want to run the thing and push their own agendas and it always feels as though they miss the point of why your getting together in the first place. In a strange way I find it really sad, the very thing that brings people together pulls people apart. Please keep in mind I hold no ill will toward any religion that practices tolerance and compassion, organized or not. I honestly believe that God is looking to us to just treat each other with respect, kindness and love, not really a lot to ask for.

I heard a quote years ago, I don't recall who said it, but I think of it often, it went along the lines of, "live your life believing in God. Live everyday to try and make this a better place for everyone, treat all people with kindness. If you've done this and you get to the end of your days and there is no God, you'll still have made this a better place just by living in it, and if He's there, He'll be waiting for you to welcome you home.” 

Interesting topic.
 
Thanks to everybody who's contributed to it.

Ed

[T MAC]

I have really appreciated the thoughts, feelings and beliefs expressed by all in this thread.  I have a story that I want to pass on that was sent to me. It is a privelege to be a member here and I am proud to be on the team.  T MAC

Two Choices

What would you do?....you make the choice. Don't look for a punch line, there isn't one. Read it anyway. My question is: Would you have made the same choice?

At a fundraising dinner for a school that serves learning-disabled children, the father of one of the students delivered a speech that would never be forgotten by all who attended. After extolling the school and its dedicated staff, he offered a question: "When not interfered with by outside influences, everything nature does is done with perfection. Yet my son, Shay, cannot learn things as other children do. He cannot understand things as other children do. Where is the natural order of things in my son?"

The audience was stilled by the query.

The father continued. "I believe  that when a child like Shay, physically and mentally handicapped comes into the world, an opportunity to realize true human nature presents itself, and it comes in the way other people treat that child."

Then he told the following story:

Shay and his father had walked past a park where some boys Shay knew were playing baseball. Shay asked, "Do you think they'll let me play?"  Shay's father knew that most of the boys would not want someone like Shay on their team, but the father also understood that if his son were allowed to play, it would give him a much-needed sense of belonging and some confidence to be accepted by others in spite of his handicaps.

Shay's father approached one of the boys on the field and asked (not expecting much) if Shay could play. The boy looked around for guidance and said, "We're losing by six runs and the game is in the eighth inning. I guess he can be on our team and we'll try to put him in to bat in the ninth inning."

Shay struggled over to the team's bench and, with a broad smile, put on a team shirt. His Father watched with a small tear in his eye and warmth in his heart. The boys saw the father's joy at his son being accepted. In the bottom of the eighth inning, Shay's team scored a few runs but was still behind by three. In the top of the ninth inning, Shay put on a glove and played in the right field. Even though no hits came his way, he was obviously ecstatic just to be in the game and on the field, grinning from ear to ear as his father waved to him from the stands. In the bottom of the ninth inning, Shay's team scored again. Now, with two outs and the bases loaded, the potential winning run was on base and Shay was scheduled to be next at bat.

At this juncture, do they let Shay bat and give away their chance to win the game? Surprisingly, Shay was given the bat. Everyone knew that a hit was all but impossible because Shay didn't even know how to hold the bat properly, much less connect with the ball.

However, as Shay stepped up to the plate, the pitcher, recognizing that the other team was putting winning aside for this moment in Shay's life, moved in a few steps to lob the ball in softly so Shay could at least make contact. The first pitch came and Shay swung clumsily and missed. The pitcher again took a few steps forward to toss the ball softly towards Shay. As the pitch came in, Shay swung at the ball and hit a slow ground ball right back to the pitcher.

The game would now be over. The pitcher picked up the soft grounder and could have easily thrown the ball to the first baseman. Shay would have been out and that would have been the end of the game.

Instead, the pitcher threw the ball right over the first baseman's head, out of reach of all team mates. Everyone from the stands and both teams started yelling, "Shay, run to first! Run to first!" Never in his life had Shay ever run that far, but he made it to first base. He scampered down the baseline, wide-eyed and startled.

Everyone yelled, "Run to second, run to second!" Catching his breath, Shay awkwardly ran towards second, gleaming and struggling to make it to the base. By the time Shay rounded towards second base, the right fielder had the ball .. the smallest guy on their team who now had his first chance to be the hero for his team. He could have thrown the ball to the second-baseman for the tag, but he understood the pitcher's intentions so he, too, intentionally threw the ball high and far over the third-baseman's head. Shay ran toward third base deliriously as the runners ahead of him circled the bases toward home.

All were screaming, "Shay, Shay, Shay, all the Way Shay"

Shay reached third base because the opposing shortstop ran to help him by turning him in the direction of third base, and shouted, "Run to third! Shay, run to third!"

As Shay rounded third, the boys from both teams, and the spectators, were on their feet screaming, "Shay, run home! Run home!" Shay ran to home, stepped on the plate, and was cheered as the hero who hit the grand slam and won the game for his team.

"That day", said the father softly with tears now rolling down his face, "the boys from both teams helped bring a piece of true love and humanity into this world".

Shay didn't make it to another summer. He died that winter, having never forgotten being the hero and making his father so happy, and coming home and seeing his Mother tearfully embrace her little hero of the day!

 

May your day, be a Shay Day.

 



 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

[ESJ JESTER]

  Ed   Good to see ya !!   Hope things get better with the work issues

   T Mac      Good post.....

[harleydiva]

I Hope nobody minds if I share a few thoughts. I haven't been on the site in a while, problems with work have kept me from being able to send much time here. I've missed reading through the pages of comments, jokes and thoughts and in a kind of modern Cyb space way, of spending time with friends. When I came across this thread and began to read I wasn't really sure where it was going to end up. I wanted to read every post and take a little time to reflect on everyone's words and emotions before adding to them.

I was raised Catholic. Catholic school grades 1 through 6, completing all of my sacraments as I was told I had to do. I went through CCD every week, although I never really got anything out of any of it.

The church in which all matters of ceremony took place is still there, a huge, ornate beautiful building. Paintings and gold leaf, life size statues of all of the saints, massive columns. We had my fathers, Uncle's, Aunt's, cousins and all sorts of family friends funerals there, my parents were married there and celebrate Christmas mass at midnight there every year. But for me although this was God's house I have always felt that I could be closer and perhaps commune on better footing when I was out in the woods or in the mountains away from the hypocrisy. I've always felt that I didn't need a building or money to talk with God.

One of the things that comes to mind when relating this topic is when my daughter, Molly was born. I remember watching her take her first breath. Not just being born but watching her as she opened her mouth and drew in that very first breath of air. I remember thinking that there is no possible way that there couldn't be a God, look at this miraculous event. A lot of things have happened since that day, she'll be 15 next month, a lot of things that haven't been so good, divorce, cancer, death, world wide suffering, war. But a lot of good things have happened to. All of them, bad and good have only reinforced my faith.

So I guess to answer your question BB, I most surely believe in God and I believe that, as TC wrote, you only have one chance to get it right. I also get a great amount of comfort from my friend JR, he has given me something that I had lost a long time ago.

I would like to find an organized religion that I could fit into but as soon as people get involved they want to run the thing and push their own agendas and it always feels as though they miss the point of why your getting together in the first place. In a strange way I find it really sad, the very thing that brings people together pulls people apart. Please keep in mind I hold no ill will toward any religion that practices tolerance and compassion, organized or not. I honestly believe that God is looking to us to just treat each other with respect, kindness and love, not really a lot to ask for.

I heard a quote years ago, I don't recall who said it, but I think of it often, it went along the lines of, "live your life believing in God. Live everyday to try and make this a better place for everyone, treat all people with kindness. If you've done this and you get to the end of your days and there is no God, you'll still have made this a better place just by living in it, and if He's there, He'll be waiting for you to welcome you home.” 

Interesting topic.
 
Thanks to everybody who's contributed to it.

Ed

I agree with you wholeheartedly...it's a shame that so many organized religions actually run folks away by being pushy instead of letting one worship in their own way.

[SPIDERMAN]

I agree with you wholeheartedly...it's a shame that so many organized religions actually run folks away by being pushy instead of letting one worship in their own way.

GOD is everything, everywhere, always and forever

Religion is a drag.

[harleydiva]

GOD is everything, everywhere, always and forever

Religion is a drag.

I couldn't have said it better myself, and I think that is what the majority of us are trying to get across.   

[displacing air]

(Ecclesiastes 5:18-20 NIV) Then I realized that it is good and proper for a man to eat and drink, and to find satisfaction in his toilsome labour under the sun during the few days of life God has given him--for this is his lot. {19} Moreover, when God gives any man wealth and possessions, and enables him to enjoy them, to accept his lot and be happy in his work--this is a gift of God. {20} He seldom reflects on the days of his life, because God keeps him occupied with gladness of heart.

Big B...

You have more roads than you can ride in a lifetime...two cool rides to put on the road...great friends and family...a changed heart...and a sound mind.

Just thank God and ride!!!

[altugo]

What happened the good old sex drugs and rock n roll?

[EAGLE1]

What happened the good old sex drugs and rock n roll?

yea baby!!! let party

[Fired00d]

yea baby!!! let party

Not sure I could live thru that again. But it sure was fun when I was younger.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[displacing air]

What happened the good old sex drugs and rock n roll?

Yep...still like them also.

Rock and Roll...you bet!
Sex with my wife still great after 21 years!
A drink when I feel like it...it ok!!!

Or were you talking about something else?

[altugo]

Yep...still like them also.

Rock and Roll...you bet!
Sex with my wife still great after 21 years!
A drink when I feel like it...it ok!!!

Or were you talking about something else?

I dont mind how you do it as long as you still do it
After all we all should enjoy life and i guess everyone here loves doing that.At the end of the day i know no better way than spending time on my fatboy.

[altugo]

yea baby!!! let party

Pass it on the left hand side eagle