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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: srqseeg on February 05, 2006, 06:50:25 PM
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This is a heads up to those who, like me, have had performance issues since last October. Symptoms included running hot, poor acceleration, loss of a deep sound from the pipes, dramatic decrease in gas mileage, and a coffee grinder sound coming from motor when accelerating sharply. After hurricane Katrina the government evidently relaxed standards for gasoline and many of the additives are no longer added. Performance issues are particularly evident on our larger motors. Johnson Performance in Sarasota suggested putting octane booster in at each fill-up (bottle is for 15 gallons so you have to make sure you only pour in 1/3 a bottle at fill-up and keep it away from your paint!). What a difference! Great having the SEEG performing like it use to! Others having these issues? If so, octane booster may just be the ticket.
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if your bike needs octane booster to get it running right, you have a problem.
were you buying your gas from the same station?
if so, maybe they got a bad load in.
i had to run 87 on a trip one time. it was the only gas the station had.
bike ran fine. no pinging at all.
if there was a performance difference, it was hardly noticeable.
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I used the same station for months prior to and after the performance issues cropped up. Multiple fill-ups with no improvement so started going to BP with no change in performance so it does not seem to be a case of getting some "bad" gas from a single or several fill-ups. However, my first thought was that I had gotten ahold of some bad gas. All I know is that the problems have disappeared with the addition of the octane booster. This experience is with only two fill-ups though. I'm certainly open to other suggestions since the booster I'm buying adds about $3 per fill-up. If this truly is the solution, it's a small price to pay for the outstanding performance I'm getting now. Wonder if this problem is limited to the Southeast or if others have encountered a drop-off in performance over the last 3-4 months.
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Unless they changed the labels on the pumps, if it says 92 octane then it has to be 92 octane. The more likely issue would be that they started shipping gasoline to your area from refineries where they have EPA mandated oxygenated fuel. The folks in California, Chicago, and any other "non-attainment" area can tell you how great that stuff runs (not).
Jerry
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grc,
The folks at Johnson Performance said the actual octane was the same (my primary station is 93 octane) but that the gas doesn't have the same additives they use to have.
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srqseeg,
The biggest difference I see with oxygenated fuel is reduced mileage (10 - 15%) and a slight reduction in power. I haven't really noticed increased detonation or some of the other problems you described. Since octane is the measure of resistance to detonation, you shouldn't have that problem if the fuel really is 93 octane, even if it is oxygenated. Another possibility is that some unscrupulous middleman is adulterating the fuel before it gets to the gas stations. Wouldn't be the first time someone tried to take advantage of a situation. BTW, using different stations in the same area won't necessarily tell you anything. They are probably getting their fuel from the same distributor, no matter what the brand.
Jerry
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grc,
Interesting stuff. Thanks! After another tank or two of using the booster, I think I will go back and run without the booster and see what happens. Could the symptoms indicate that I had a carbon build-up and this has now been cleared out? The dealer thought that this might be the issue. If so, the question becomes does octane booster help "burn" carbon build-up out?
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srqseeg,
The biggest difference I see with oxygenated fuel is reduced mileage (10 - 15%) and a slight reduction in power.
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.....After another tank or two of using the booster, I think I will go back and run without the booster and see what happens.
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Thanks gang! As always, great info here!
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I encountered a similar problem about six months ago and found that it was confined to the purchases made at RaceTrac stations. Started using Sunoco and lost the problem. In doing some checking, I learned that they use and blend from two different sources with RaceTrac playing the market on differenct distributors. May or may not be the problem, but worked for me.
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Remember when you could pull into a Sunoco station and on the side of the building was the"CAM II" 110 octane pump fuel for like $3.50 a gallon.(Remember this goes back at least 10-12 yrs ago.) You would put that chit in anything and it was like instant power. Boy those were the days. Later,Q :'(
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, Big Daddy,
It's $4.63 a gallon up here. Local Distributor has it at the Plant, for the Local Dirt Track, not offered in Stations. Torco 112, and sometimes 114 Octane, "Blue Fuel." Later--HUBBARD
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Update:
Just rode with the first fill-up without using the octane booster. Performance issues I initially noted quickly returned. Thought it might have been carbon buildup, but now that does not seem to be the case.
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Update:
Just rode with the first fill-up without using the octane booster.
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kng103,
Will get it back to the dealer. Using the Race Tuner with the Rineharts. Thought it might be a tuning issue and the dealer recommended the octane booster to avoid tuning again.
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, Big Daddy,
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Update:
After using octane booster for three fill ups (performance improved) I filled up and did not use octane booster. Lugging, pinging, and overly heated engine condition returned. Took bike back to dealer and was advised to use Mobil. Tried this for three tanks and still had the problems. Dealer finally agreed to put it back on the dyno. They found the "tuning" fell out at 2200-3000 RPM at some point.
After re-tuning it ran like a champ--better than ever. Unfortunately, once the engine warmed, the poor performance returned. Took it back and they put the bike on the dyno and re-set the timing, took the bike for a test ride, put back on the dyno, took for a test drive....a process which continued for 1.5 hours.
Seems like a goofy way to get the timing right, but what the heck do I know? Anyway, I am enjoying the performance I should have had for the last year. Very stoked with the performance now.
Thanks to all for your advice!!! [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
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srqseeg:
Sorry I didn't see this post before. I have had some experience watching Brad Yuill on the dyno at Freedom Cycle and I know the Race Tuner works the same way as the Power Commander he uses. You have a cold start map and a regular map. The cold start map is richer for one, whih is probably why the bike runs OK til it warms up...just like a choke.... For perfromance The idea, of course is to get the bike to run as lean as possible with as much advance as possible without detonation. Leaner is faster. Leaner and more advanced equals detonation however and there's no magic formula to get the process right. Also on the Race Tuner theres no auto mode between the software and the dyno, like the Power Commander, hence the trial and error.There are over 220 cells for fuel and air mixture which must be mapped and the same number for advance and the two parameters work in conjunction with one another. You might be too lean and too advanced, or just too lean or too advanced, and in which rpm ranges and at what throttle settings???????
Octane Booster isn't the answer....A PATIENT...THOROUGH and COMPETENT tuner is!!!!!!
Keep taking it back til it's right!!!! :-X
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PCC--
Great info and good for future reference! Thanks!
Dealer finally got it right so it's running super now. Very frustrating experience though.
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I am not an expert by any means but...having thoroughly discussed the difference between the RT and the PCIII with the tuner in Daytona, I was sold on the PCIII because it takes a very good tune (6 hours min) to set up the RT. Not to say it is better or worse, but it takes patience. The bike must be cooled down too many times to make the RT work good. Most tuners don't want to labor over that much time on one bike and at straight pay rates. HD mechanics are not that precise when work is stacking up. If you are racing and patient, RT may be the way to go. If your a weekend road rider, you are not going to notice the difference. Temperature, humidity, fuel, altitude and mixture are so important. Most of us will not be willing to change maps constantly to adapt to different riding conditions to warrant the RT. He did not run it down, but just pointed out that most people will not dial it in without enormous expense using the RT.
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I am not an expert by any means but...having thoroughly discussed the difference between the RT and the PCIII with the tuner in Daytona, I was sold on the PCIII because it takes a very good tune (6 hours min) to set up the RT. Not to say it is better or worse, but it takes patience. The bike must be cooled down too many times to make the RT work good. Most tuners don't want to labor over that much time on one bike and at straight pay rates. HD mechanics are not that precise when work is stacking up. If you are racing and patient, RT may be the way to go. If your a weekend road rider, you are not going to notice the difference. Temperature, humidity, fuel, altitude and mixture are so important. Most of us will not be willing to change maps constantly to adapt to different riding conditions to warrant the RT. He did not run it down, but just pointed out that most people will not dial it in without enormous expense using the RT.
It sounds like this guy has never tuned using a RT or my guess is he's selling PC's. An experienced tuner should be able to dial in a bike in under 2 hours using RT and the available base maps.