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Author Topic: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure  (Read 2754 times)

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FlaHeatWave

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iski

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2018, 01:16:29 PM »

Would check with the dealer to see if they can turn it in and reimburse you.  Would also check to make sure they used Platinum Label DOT 4 brake fluid that was referred to in the recall. 
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FlaHeatWave

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2018, 01:22:02 PM »

Would check with the dealer to see if they can turn it in and reimburse you.  Would also check to make sure they used Platinum Label DOT 4 brake fluid that was referred to in the recall.

Yea, maybe I can get a gift certificate out of them :nixweiss:
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2018, 02:22:14 PM »

Yea, maybe I can get a gift certificate out of them :nixweiss:

Would be better than nothing. Usually is my luck - pay for something that is free a week later.  :wall:
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2002FXDWG3

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2018, 02:33:32 PM »

Harley's woes continue.
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2018, 03:51:58 PM »


This problem has been cussed and discussed since the 2008 Touring models started having failures.  Harley is still trying to place the blame on owners not changing fluid every 24 months, even though that wasn't and isn't the root cause of the problem and there were failures reported on more than a few 2008 models within the first 24 months of ownership.  The problem was caused by the materials they used (cost cutting even on safety items).  There are probably many hundreds of millions of older ABS equipped cars and trucks on the roads that have never had the brake fluid changed, and they don't seem to have this problem.  In fact, Harley was among the last of the motorcycle companies to start installing ABS, and they seem to be the only one with this major problem.  Does anyone really think all those Honda and BMW riders have been religiously changing brake fluid every 24 months over the past decade or two?

Jerry
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tazmun

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2018, 06:03:42 PM »

This problem has been cussed and discussed since the 2008 Touring models started having failures.  Harley is still trying to place the blame on owners not changing fluid every 24 months, even though that wasn't and isn't the root cause of the problem and there were failures reported on more than a few 2008 models within the first 24 months of ownership.  The problem was caused by the materials they used (cost cutting even on safety items).  There are probably many hundreds of millions of older ABS equipped cars and trucks on the roads that have never had the brake fluid changed, and they don't seem to have this problem.  In fact, Harley was among the last of the motorcycle companies to start installing ABS, and they seem to be the only one with this major problem.  Does anyone really think all those Honda and BMW riders have been religiously changing brake fluid every 24 months over the past decade or two?

Jerry
Unfortunately Jerry,  I  do it every 2years on my Goldwing,  and have done it on all my cars and SUV's.
I wanted my dealer to change it on my HD,  and they looked at me like I was a Deer in the headlights!
You would not believe what brake fluid looks like,  and how much it deteriorates from heat, which can
Cause rust in 2 years, just saying.
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2002FXDWG3

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2018, 06:15:16 PM »

My car's owner's manual says replace brake fluid every 10 years.  I would typically do it every 2 years on previous cars.  I've switched to 4 years.  It still looks like new at 4 years.

Might explain why the dealer told my buddy (who has a TC bike without ABS running DOT 5) he needs a brake fluid flush (bike is at the dealer for other work).  He looked up his service records and they just did it last year LOL.  I think you can easily go 5 years on DOT 5, although I haven't checked the owner's manual lately.  Who knows what they put in it last time.  Just amateur hour.
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Mark

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2018, 11:06:47 AM »

HD tried to spin this the best they could, but stating “it’s really the owners fault for not changing fluid every 24 mos.” doesn’t really fly.  Do you really think a corporation would issue a $25-30 mil recall because owners aren’t following the service guidelines?  This, coming on the heels of abysmal quarterly profits and a plant closing is really damaging.
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grc

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2018, 01:02:43 PM »

HD tried to spin this the best they could, but stating “it’s really the owners fault for not changing fluid every 24 mos.” doesn’t really fly.  Do you really think a corporation would issue a $25-30 mil recall because owners aren’t following the service guidelines?  This, coming on the heels of abysmal quarterly profits and a plant closing is really damaging.

Besides that, how would they explain why the problem was so bad on the early versions but not on the bikes built in the past six years?  Remember, the 2008 models started having failures within two years, which Harley blew off as per corporate protocol.  Are we to actually believe that all people buying 2012 and later models are religiously changing brake fluid every two years or less, unlike those bad folks who blew it off on the 2008-2011 models?  This is a good example of another big problem Harley has with many current and previous owners, known as a lack of credibility.  I personally don't do business with people who repeatedly lie to me.  I'm guessing I'm not the only person who feels that way.

Jerry
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2018, 09:35:32 PM »

Just spitballing here, but could it be degraded brake fluid isn't playing well with metals used in the ABS system, and that's causing the problem?  I just can't see HD issuing a voluntary recall, that will cost them untold millions, for a service item the customer is supped to do.  By comparison, if customers had engine failure due to not changing the oil, would HD cover that too?
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 06:18:03 PM »

HD is getting off light with this recall. The H-D Platinum Label DOT 4 Brake Fluid free flush recall will not be the last we hear of this. Their litigators are most impressive.  :drink:

Ride On


TN

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bluegoose

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2018, 11:24:39 PM »

Although I have not received an official recall letter in the mail I verified my vin was part of the recall so I stopped by the local dealer today to schedule the flush.

The service tech told me they would not have any of the required brake fluid in until the end of March.

WTF no brake fluid for a month.

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FlaHeatWave

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 12:07:51 AM »

'Wondering how much culpability Delphi has in this?? Brembo??  :confused5:

I would think they have to shoulder some responsibility ($$)??

Most all Delphi and Brembo stuff is pretty tight & trouble free...

« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 02:15:48 AM by FlaHeatWave »
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Twolanerider

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 12:14:54 AM »

All the people that have already replaced ABS pumps are still screwed for the large repair expense. Heluva deal to have a huge bill and get a quart of brake fluid in return.  And what about all those ABS pumps that now get new fluid but have whatever pitting or other internal issues that have slowly developed over time.  New fluid isn't going to magically repair existing finished surfaces.
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Mark

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 11:25:53 AM »

All the people that have already replaced ABS pumps are still screwed for the large repair expense. Heluva deal to have a huge bill and get a quart of brake fluid in return.  And what about all those ABS pumps that now get new fluid but have whatever pitting or other internal issues that have slowly developed over time.  New fluid isn't going to magically repair existing finished surfaces.

I wondered the same thing.  If your ABS system is already damaged, new fluid isn't going to heal that.  I'm just speculating HD jumped on a voluntary recall for brake fluid to keep the govt at bay and to try and keep Uncle Sugar from issuing a recall on the ABS...which would cost who knows how much.
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 11:48:12 AM »

That'll all change when a couple of riders crash after the fluid change recall is performed.
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 12:37:24 PM »

How different is this from all the hydraulic clutch issues on the 2014+?  fluid damaging parts, corrosion, etc.  Sounds very similar. 
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 01:36:03 PM »

How different is this from all the hydraulic clutch issues on the 2014+?  fluid damaging parts, corrosion, etc.  Sounds very similar.

Yup, similar story, didn't believe that one either.  I'm still laughing my butt off about the "special" DOT 4 fluid they are supposed to use for the ABS recall, I can't remember if that same "special" fluid was used for the clutch master cylinder fiasco.  Perhaps the "special" fluid contains a secret ingredient that will magically "heal" the damage. :nixweiss:

Jerry
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 04:22:59 PM by flhse »
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2018, 05:18:45 PM »

Wonder if I can get reimbursed for actually doing the scheduled fluid change......
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2018, 05:31:37 PM »

Worth the read, last couple pages....

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2018/RCLRPT-18V076-4574.PDF

Then I ran across this:

http://www.np.co.tt/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/PLATINUM-BRAKE-FLUID-DOT-4.pdf

Did you notice the banner at the top of the pages at the 2nd link Brad.   Not meaning to disparage a possibly fine organization that is unknown to me; but it's from the Trinidad and Tobago National Petroleum Marketing Company Limited.   ???

At least according to the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago a Platinum based DOT 4 will have a boiling point of 500F though; so that ain't bad.  Now I've got a real need for some spicy food...  ;)
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2018, 06:24:12 PM »

Did you notice the banner at the top of the pages at the 2nd link Brad.   Not meaning to disparage a possibly fine organization that is unknown to me; but it's from the Trinidad and Tobago National Petroleum Marketing Company Limited.   ???

At least according to the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago a Platinum based DOT 4 will have a boiling point of 500F though; so that ain't bad.  Now I've got a real need for some spicy food...  ;)


Well, they are a global company!  I can't say I've ever ran across a "special" dot 4 fluid before or even a "platinum" fluid.
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2018, 06:38:44 PM »


Well, they are a global company!  I can't say I've ever ran across a "special" dot 4 fluid before or even a "platinum" fluid.

It's a reformation of HD branded Kool Aid
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 02:05:34 AM »

It's a reformation of HD branded Kool Aid
And all Harley riders are required to drink it.   :drink:   :confused5:
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 08:38:24 AM »


I find it sad that Harley continues to just lie to avoid responsibility for their own mistakes, but I also find it sad that our regulatory agencies like the NHTSA have fallen so low as to accept this kind of total BS response versus having their own engineers determine the real root cause and then force a mandatory recall to replace hardware, not just some mythical "special' brake fluid. 

Perhaps if Harley hadn't routed the brake lines too close to the exhaust system the fluid wouldn't have become overheated and degraded.  Remember the brake light switch failures from this same time frame due to overheating?  I wonder why Harley didn't blame that one on the customers as well.

Jerry
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 10:42:46 AM »

Sitting here trying to think up a customer's blame solution to the brake light switch.  Something like customer must apply pedal in specific morse code pattern spelling out d-u-m-s-h-i-t to flush switch during every two year flush cycle?
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2018, 02:54:28 PM »

I got my recall notice today!  They are giving me a "free flush" with their H-D Platinum Label DOT 4 Brake Fluid.  Wow, I am so glad the are concerned about my safety.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2018, 11:13:12 PM »

I'm still laughing my butt off about the "special" DOT 4 fluid they are supposed to use for the ABS recall, I can't remember if that same "special" fluid was used for the clutch master cylinder fiasco.  Perhaps the "special" fluid contains a secret ingredient that will magically "heal" the damage. :nixweiss:

Jerry
Although I have not received an official recall letter in the mail I verified my vin was part of the recall so I stopped by the local dealer today to schedule the flush.

The service tech told me they would not have any of the required brake fluid in until the end of March.

WTF no brake fluid for a month.
The guy who bought my 2011 checked with his local dealer, who also said they won't have that brake fluid until end of March.  It's actually called HD Unobtainium Label .44 brake fluid ;)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 11:16:49 PM by Para Bellum »
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2018, 12:28:25 AM »

Had my fluid changed last year when I got the bike back went down the road and at the first stop sign the front brake lever was stuck had to down shift and hard on the rear brake sure was pucker time. Pulled to the side and forced the lever a few times before I continued on has been fine since.
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2018, 08:19:55 AM »

Had my fluid changed last year when I got the bike back went down the road and at the first stop sign the front brake lever was stuck had to down shift and hard on the rear brake sure was pucker time. Pulled to the side and forced the lever a few times before I continued on has been fine since.

You didn't say, but I'm going to assume a dealership did your fluid change.  Fine workmanship and attention to detail.

Jerry
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2018, 10:06:54 AM »

It was road tested extensively for safety reasons before giving it back to you.

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2018, 12:25:40 PM »

I got my recall notice today!  They are giving me a "free flush" with their H-D Platinum Label DOT 4 Brake Fluid.  Wow, I am so glad the are concerned about my safety.

 :oops: :nixweiss:

Yep, me too...
Also noted in the letter "If you previously paid to remedy the specific condition that is the subject of this recall, you may be eligible for reimbursement" :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2018, 05:21:29 PM »

Yep, me too...
Also noted in the letter "If you previously paid to remedy the specific condition that is the subject of this recall, you may be eligible for reimbursement" :2vrolijk_21:

Ditto here.
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2018, 07:04:09 PM »

Yep, me too...
Also noted in the letter "If you previously paid to remedy the specific condition that is the subject of this recall, you may be eligible for reimbursement" :2vrolijk_21:

That's basically boilerplate.  Most if not all recalls I've seen include that statement.  Notice in this case they don't specify exactly what they "might" reimburse.  If you had to buy a new ABS pump and valve assembly, will they pay for that?  Or will they just pay if you already paid to have the specific recall action, flush and refill, done?  Usually if a manufacturer intends to pay for parts replaced before you were notified of the recall they spell it out in plain English.

Jerry
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2018, 10:35:28 PM »

I was sick at the time and the dealer picked up and delivered back to me. New tires, battery, front brake rotor, compensator, stator and bearings and brake flush.
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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2018, 06:12:14 PM »

So if you replace the fluid with the "new and Improved" brake fluid are you still required to flush the system every 2 years . I assumed it was a problem in the type and caliber of the fluid used originally? Guess not. My guess is this is a litigation strategy to get in front of potential law suits for failures. You crash and haven't followed the owners manual guidelines for service your loss.
 
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2002FXDWG3

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2018, 06:51:32 PM »

Interesting theory, as DIY doesn't count since the anti-lock system doesn't bleed properly without the H-D machine.
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Para Bellum

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2018, 07:19:29 PM »

So if you replace the fluid with the "new and Improved" brake fluid are you still required to flush the system every 2 years.
Yes.  The recall letter has a Warning sheet to add to the owner's manual that says to flush DOT4 fluid every two years, or sooner if the amount of water in the brake fluid exceeds 3%.
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CVOStreetglide

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2018, 07:25:25 PM »

That's basically boilerplate.  Most if not all recalls I've seen include that statement.  Notice in this case they don't specify exactly what they "might" reimburse.  If you had to buy a new ABS pump and valve assembly, will they pay for that?  Or will they just pay if you already paid to have the specific recall action, flush and refill, done?  Usually if a manufacturer intends to pay for parts replaced before you were notified of the recall they spell it out in plain English.

Jerry


Jerry:

I think it is also fair to ask if the system has a warranty for any period of time after being serviced.

The system could be bled/flushed with new fluid and road tested only to have the internal ABS components fail at a later date.


As far as the fluid being new and improved, my understanding is that all DOT4 fluid needs to be redone every couple of years.


Regards

Jerry also
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Mark

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2018, 08:10:49 AM »


Jerry:

I think it is also fair to ask if the system has a warranty for any period of time after being serviced.

The system could be bled/flushed with new fluid and road tested only to have the internal ABS components fail at a later date.


As far as the fluid being new and improved, my understanding is that all DOT4 fluid needs to be redone every couple of years.


Regards

Jerry also

I think you've hit the nail on the head - the brake service recall call was a lesser-cost preemptive strike to put a band aid on the problem.  I'm sure the bean counters balked at a complete ABS replacement.  This is just kicking the can down the road to keep Uncle Sugar at bay.   
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grc

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Re: Harley Recalls 174k Motorcycles for Potential Brake Failure
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2018, 08:26:59 AM »

I think you've hit the nail on the head - the brake service recall call was a lesser-cost preemptive strike to put a band aid on the problem.  I'm sure the bean counters balked at a complete ABS replacement.  This is just kicking the can down the road to keep Uncle Sugar at bay.   

They've already had many lawsuits on this issue, but of course we never hear about the outcomes.  They've been kicking a lot of cans down the road over the years, and settling a lot of lawsuits with nondisclosure agreements firmly attached, rather than do the right thing and actually fix problems.  They got away with it for decades on various safety related issues, but I kind of wonder if that strategy is losing it's effectiveness.  NHTSA spent those same decades ignoring all the complaints and evidence of safety related defects, but in recent years we've actually seen recalls on stuff Harley used to always blow off by blaming customers, like saddlebags falling off for instance.  Their fixes tended to be a joke, but at least they were having to 'fess up about having a problem.  This particular issue with the ABS system was potentially expensive enough to cause them to haul out the old strategy, but I doubt it's going to work that well in the long term.  As I noted before, plenty of early Harley ABS systems failed long before old fluid should have had any affect, and most other companies using ABS have not had the same issues.

JMHO - Jerry
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H-D and me  -  a classic love / hate relationship.  Current score:  love 40, hate 50, bewildered 10.
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