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[crewchief25h]

Howdy
Dropped off my brother en laws 07 SG for primary chain tightness/vibration. We checked crank runout on the primary side with .038 runout. His is a HD dealer built 103.
Local dealer acted like we were talking a different language to them. They said they never heard of crank runout problems w/ 96's.   We had to take a print out of HD Tech Tip 324 in to them to educate the service manager.  Guess they are in a meeting now as I'm writing this. We'll see how it goes!!!!

[Chief]

Howdy
Dropped off my brother en laws 07 SG for primary chain tightness/vibration. We checked crank runout on the primary side with .038 runout. His is a HD dealer built 103.
Local dealer acted like we were talking a different language to them. They said they never heard of crank runout problems w/ 96's.   We had to take a print out of HD Tech Tip 324 in to them to educate the service manager.  Guess they are in a meeting now as I'm writing this. We'll see how it goes!!!!

Ridiculous! But then again they are just quoting from the "HD Book of Canned Answers", pg 103-110. 

[SBB]

Ridiculous! But then again they are just quoting from the "HD Book of Canned Answers", pg 103-110.  

Now Chief that's the funniest thing I've heard all day!

 

[rednectum]

Ridiculous! But then again they are just quoting from the "HD Book of Canned Answers", pg 103-110. 

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

We supply over 20 dealers with performance kits and they have all agreed that the crank issues are a big problem. Most are sending us the case's for timken upgrade and replacing the stock crank with a JIMS/ SE unit and taking care of the customer in the process. For the money involed in fixing a stock unit you are with 300 dollars of getting a forged crank. They do work very well out of the box. I have installed over a dozen of the jims units since last fall and all have been running great. Runout has been under  1 thou on all of them. We have  even re checked several of them and the run out has not increased. Milage wise the highest was 30,000 since the work was done. SO time will tell but it would seem this is the way to go, money wise and time wise as well.  I know that many are caught up in the warranty issue, but really the crank you get as a replacement has a very high chance of being faulty from the start.  Good luck with the dealer and getting them to sort it out. I hope that they will take care of the problem for you. By the way what dealer ship is it?? You can pm me on that if that is what you would rather do. Thanks

[Chief]

We supply over 20 dealers with performance kits and they have all agreed that the crank issues are a big problem. Most are sending us the case's for timken upgrade and replacing the stock crank with a JIMS/ SE unit and taking care of the customer in the process. For the money involed in fixing a stock unit you are with 300 dollars of getting a forged crank. They do work very well out of the box. I have installed over a dozen of the jims units since last fall and all have been running great. Runout has been under  1 thou on all of them. We have  even re checked several of them and the run out has not increased. Milage wise the highest was 30,000 since the work was done. SO time will tell but it would seem this is the way to go, money wise and time wise as well.  I know that many are caught up in the warranty issue, but really the crank you get as a replacement has a very high chance of being faulty from the start.  Good luck with the dealer and getting them to sort it out. I hope that they will take care of the problem for you. By the way what dealer ship is it?? You can pm me on that if that is what you would rather do. Thanks

This might be one of those situations where it would be wise to pay up the extra $$ and get the Jims/SE if you are in for a warranty repair.

[Hoist!]

I like the S&S Forged crank I used for my new 110 (with Timken conversion). It was excellent quality and almost immeasurable runout on the truing stand, right out of the box. It's balanced and trued! About 1200 bucks.

Hoist!

[vagabond6542]

Howdy
Dropped off my brother en laws 07 SG for primary chain tightness/vibration. We checked crank runout on the primary side with .038 runout. His is a HD dealer built 103.
Local dealer acted like we were talking a different language to them. They said they never heard of crank runout problems w/ 96's.   We had to take a print out of HD Tech Tip 324 in to them to educate the service manager.  Guess they are in a meeting now as I'm writing this. We'll see how it goes!!!!

I pressed my dealership to have it done. It will cost approx. $720.00
It is a sure way to be certain that the stock bottom end is solid.
I had a telcom w/Rusty and came out of it with the knowledge the the pinion side runout is critical.
Sure, if you are into more expenses, follow the other suggestions.

Just my .02.

[roadrunner]

Recieved some info on my crank runout and cam shoes (14K).  Runout is .007 and shoes a little worn.  Tech est. replacing shoes around $300 incl. labor.  I am considering replacing the crank with the Jims.  Will talk to Zippers tomorrow.  Anyone have advice?

[sadunbar]

Recieved some info on my crank runout and cam shoes (14K).  Runout is .007 and shoes a little worn.  Tech est. replacing shoes around $300 incl. labor.  I am considering replacing the crank with the Jims.  Will talk to Zippers tomorrow.  Anyone have advice?

You may want to consider an S&S crank.  Howie could provide more details as he just installed one in his cases...

Scott

[roadrunner]

Spoke to Zippers, may go with the 103 muscle kit, still need to purchase the S&S crank.  Like to know where Hoist got his for $1200.  Not sure if worth $ per Torque if choosing the 103 muscle kit vs 575 cams and new S&S crank.  Will compare the numbers when I talk to the dealer.  I am considering having Zippers put the parts together, any comments?  Thanks

[Hoist!]

Spoke to Zippers, may go with the 103 muscle kit, still need to purchase the S&S crank.  Like to know where Hoist got his for $1200.  Not sure if worth $ per Torque if choosing the 103 muscle kit vs 575 cams and new S&S crank.  Will compare the numbers when I talk to the dealer.  I am considering having Zippers put the parts together, any comments?  Thanks

It's not about the $/Tq or HP, it's the quality and reliability too. My S&S Forged crank runout is 0.0005" on the pinion side and 0.0000" on the drive side, on a truing stand. I got mine from my engine builder. There's a night and day difference in that and the HD crank, and I'm not a fan of Jim's. I also modified my cases for the Timken bearing to replace the stock rollers. Numbers aren't everything. Make sure you use the best chit you can. I'm not a fan of Zipper's either. But others have had success with them. Hit or miss. And their customer service is pretty poor. Unless you're near Zipper's, and are bringing them the bike to do the whole job, I'd find a really good local guy you can deal with and discuss it with him. He's standing behind it. If he's any good, he'll ask questions about how you ride, weights, etc. and listen to you to build a motor to suit your needs. If not, he's not the right guy.

Hoist!

[crewchief25h]

Dealers ordered a replacement crank. They really didn't seem to receptive to Jim's/SE cranks. They said they needed to use what Harley was sending them. But they are checking the new crank in the truing stand before it goes in.

[roadrunner]

Decided to correct runout on existing crank (for extended warranty reasons), dealer looking into shops, may end up sending to Jims.

Cheers!

[roadrunner]

When spliting the case to have the Timken conversion done and looking at the other half of the crank the splines were badly worn. Will have to go with a new crank, S&S.  Going to the dealer tomorrow to check things out.  Dealer is asking me about why I had the fueling oil pump installed, my question is would a piece of cam shoe cause the splines to be worn?  (If I have all the motor terms correct.)  I would like to get some of the work covered under the extended warranty and have the S&S crank installed instead of the Harley.  Anyone had this issue?  Comments? Thanks!

[Fired00d]

When spliting the case to have the Timken conversion done and looking at the other half of the crank the splines were badly worn. Will have to go with a new crank, S&S.  Going to the dealer tomorrow to check things out.  Dealer is asking me about why I had the fueling oil pump installed, my question is would a piece of cam shoe cause the splines to be worn?  (If I have all the motor terms correct.)  I would like to get some of the work covered under the extended warranty and have the S&S crank installed instead of the Harley.  Anyone had this issue?  Comments? Thanks!

Sorry to hear this. Don't know but I would think if a piece of the tensioner got someplace where the tolerances were tight it could do damage. Look at this picture Henry (REGGAB) posted of what pieces did to his oil pump....

You would think the splines would tear up the chunks before the chunks wore out the splines, but I guess anything is possible.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d

[roadrunner]

I'll take some photos tomorrow and post.

[skreminegul07]

Howdy
Dropped off my brother en laws 07 SG for primary chain tightness/vibration. We checked crank runout on the primary side with .038 runout. His is a HD dealer built 103. Local dealer acted like we were talking a different language to them. They said they never heard of crank runout problems w/ 96's.   We had to take a print out of HD Tech Tip 324 in to them to educate the service manager.  Guess they are in a meeting now as I'm writing this. We'll see how it goes!!!!

Why is HD not replacing the whole motor?  That's the usual fix up to now.  Mine was .020 ans I got a motor.

[crewchief25h]

This whole deal is out of hand now. Dealer finished the motor, now the oil is not circulating. They said the plug in the bottom of the case was in to far and is blocking the oil from circulating.  Guess what, that plug was in that position for 2400 miles and the motor ran fine. Now the dealer thinks it's restricting oil flow an the motor will not rev past 3000 rpm. What a mess..

[Unbalanced]

If your still considering the Muscle 103 kit, just run away don't walk away.   It is not something you want in your bike unless your willing to redo it over at your own cost.   I had the first one and Twolane also had one and Dawg is now having lots of issues with his 113 with this same porting done to the heads on his 04 pumpkin. 

I made more power taking a set of CNC Harley heads removing the ramps from the chambers and installing a set of flat top pistons and a YB13 Cam from Brad Yuill.

Zippers muscle 103  w/ 657 cam was 105 tq / 113 horsepower   (no fun to ride)

HD CNC    117 / 114 and the bike runs smooth and quiet.

[SBB]

If your still considering the Muscle 103 kit, just run away don't walk away.   It is not something you want in your bike unless your willing to redo it over at your own cost.   I had the first one and Twolane also had one and Dawg is now having lots of issues with his 113 with this same porting done to the heads on his 04 pumpkin. 

I made more power taking a set of CNC Harley heads removing the ramps from the chambers and installing a set of flat top pistons and a YB13 Cam from Brad Yuill.

Zippers muscle 103  w/ 657 cam was 105 tq / 113 horsepower   (no fun to ride)

HD CNC    117 / 114 and the bike runs smooth and quiet.

Harry

Did you do this work or did CycleRama or a shop do this work you speak of above?
From your text

I made more power taking a set of CNC Harley heads removing the ramps from the chambers and installing a set of flat top pistons and a YB13 Cam from Brad Yuill.

it appears you did this work yourself!

Don't want anyone thinking you did this actual work do you?
What shop did this work?
Give them the credit!
Don't let everyone think you did it on your own!
That kinda reminds me of a MFG post!

Good to see you and Michelle this weekend!
See you at Maggie Valley!

 

[Unbalanced]

Chip,

I had al redman do the heads and another friend Brian from Scooters do the build on the pumpkin.   In this case I put together the package to try and use a flat top piston with the cnc head to see if it would work, since the heads have pretty good flows from the factory.   FWIW they flowed 171 on the front and 172 on the rear at 10 inches with good velocity.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=20133.msg320626#msg320626 

In the Zippers case if you go way back to the old board I had Bragging Rights do the build.   
All other parts were supplied by Zippers for the first muscle 103 kit.   I had donated the heads to them for the protoypes.

[SBB]

Chip,

I had al redman do the heads and another friend Brian from Scooters do the build on the pumpkin.   In this case I put together the package to try and use a flat top piston with the cnc head to see if it would work, since the heads have pretty good flows from the factory.   FWIW they flowed 171 on the front and 172 on the rear at 10 inches with good velocity.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=20133.msg320626#msg320626 

In the Zippers case if you go way back to the old board I had Bragging Rights do the build.   
All other parts were supplied by Zippers for the first muscle 103 kit.   I had donated the heads to them for the protoypes.

Thanks Harry
Knew you would give credit where credit is due!

 

[DCFIREMANN]

Damn I just got caught up on this thread.

First off who said I had issues with my 113 build??? Yes I have issues with Zippers but not with the motor. I am unhappy with the build as it is not what I was told it would be but that is the only problem. It also has not been tuned as of yet. I guess I can take some blame there also.

As far as the 657 cams in the 103 build, there are some people who have had problems. Actually it is a very good cam it just needs all of the right componets. That is also the case with any cams. The CVO heads SUCK, plain and simple and I think this is where the major problem arises with these builds. I wanted to keep the stock CVO look. That is the only reason why I had Zippers rework the heads.

One other problem is the level of TESTOSTERONE on this board. My bike makes more power than yours kinda deal. Yep I got it toooo. The Zip 113 is putting out 126 square. I am happy with those numbers as the TQ comes in very early. But if I were to change heads, cams and TB on this build 140 HP would not be out of the question. I chose to stay where I am (for right now anyway) as if fits my riding style. Also I very rarely twist the wick except to catch the Little Women on her V Rod.

So to the ones who have had problems I have to say I am sorry for dragging Zippers into the CVO world. It has worked for me (kinda) but not for all.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Unbalanced]

Dawg,

You said you had no problems above, yet in this thread you said you did: 

It is great to see I am not the only one WITH ISSUES. Now if they were 647's like the ones they were suppossed to put in my bike I would buy them. Now I think it is time to pull my heads and look at them.

I guess in a few weeks I will be ready to unload. Don I bet you can't wait for that now can you.


Be Safe

THE DAWG

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=20696.msg330623#msg330623

[SBB]

Harry ol bud!

You are reading in to Dawg's post what you want it to say!
Read it again. He says he has issues with Zippers not putting the cams he wanted in his bike.
He never said he had motor issues. You said that!   (see below)

I had the first one and Twolane also had one and Dawg is now having lots of issues with his 113 with this same porting done to the heads on his 04 pumpkin.  

What Dawg said was,

It is great to see I am not the only one WITH ISSUES. Now if they were 647's like the ones they were suppossed to put in my bike I would buy them. Now I think it is time to pull my heads and look at them.

Dawg has issues with Zippers, not with the motor they built!

 


You have his #, call him if you want the story on the issues.

[Unbalanced]

Chip,

The CNC program is the same on the 103 and the 113, and while I am glad you posted for DAWG I am quite sure he is big boy and can do so for himself.  And I am specifically looking at him saying 

Now I think it is time to pull my heads and look at them.

along with the cam issues.

if you were to ask a reasonable man why he would pull the heads off his motor if he was happy with them and the bike was running well ...  my answer would be you wouldnt till you had cause to. 

I also know just us 6 also had issues with his 113 build.   

[hogasm]

 

                       



I think I'll sit back and eat some

                       since I'm an 

someone please 

                         while I sit back and watch the

[roadrunner]

Photo of stock SE crank, as promised from previous post.  Not as damaged as originally told.  Not covered under warranty as runout is with HD spec's and splines not damaged enough to effect operation  .  Ended up going with the S&S crank, Zippers putting together the bottom end to include the Timken bearing.  Dealer doing the top end along with the clutch and bearing upgrade.  Cheers!

[hogasm]

Photo of stock SE crank, as promised from previous post.  Not as damaged as originally told.  Not covered under warranty as runout is with HD spec's and splines not damaged enough to effect operation  .  Ended up going with the S&S crank, Zippers putting together the bottom end to include the Timken bearing.  Dealer doing the top end along with the clutch and bearing upgrade.  Cheers!

That's a shame that your dealer would not work a little better with you on a new crank. I realize that Big Brother changed the runout specs, which is a crock of chit....mine was out .0008 and they gave me a new crank. I used the moneys to buy a screamin eagle/Jims crank. Much better crank, worth the upgrade.

[crewchief25h]

The motor rebuild is still not right!!!!!  Now the 103'' 255 cams RH/TD only makes 72HP/84TQ, with a SERT.

When some of you had your motors replaced, what did Harley do with the serial numbers on the cases?

 This dealer try to restamp the numbers with a punch.

Also did you get paper work showing the parts that were replaced under warranty? I got zero paper work, dealer said nobody ever gets warranty papers showing what was done.

Thanks

[Twolanerider]

The motor rebuild is still not right!!!!!  Now the 103'' 255 cams RH/TD only makes 72HP/84TQ, with a SERT.

When some of you had your motors replaced, what did Harley do with the serial numbers on the cases?

 This dealer try to restamp the numbers with a punch.

Also did you get paper work showing the parts that were replaced under warranty? I got zero paper work, dealer said nobody ever gets warranty papers showing what was done.

Thanks

You're getting hosed.  Tampering with a VIN is illegal.  Federally illegal.  Quite a big no-no actually.  If law enforcement ever sees your bike and wonders even a little bit you'll never get them to believe "the dealer did it."  Very large potential hassles ahead on that.  And of course you get a receipt.  Just like any other job they do. 

Unfortunately it sounds like they are covering something up or hiding something they did or did not do.  Tell them you're going to call the big Harley in the sky and your local highway patrol about the altered VIN.  Then see how they start behaving.

[Hoist!]

If they changed your cases, the new ones should have your VIN on it and your old cases returned to HD to be destroyed. Accept nothing less. Your the one that'll get screwed over this. If they gave you aftermarket cases, then you leave the S/N alone on them and you get a Certificate of Origin from the new case mfr. Theoretically, you should get the bike reVIN'd after that. But if you carry the MSO (COI) on your wallet, you'll probably not have any problems. But as Don said, there's no maually punching in S/N's. Bring that bike to Sturgis or Daytona that way, and it'll surely be towed away as an altered VIN bike that they think was redone because of stolen parts!

Hoist!

[kojak]

The motor rebuild is still not right!!!!!  Now the 103'' 255 cams RH/TD only makes 72HP/84TQ, with a SERT.

When some of you had your motors replaced, what did Harley do with the serial numbers on the cases?

 This dealer try to restamp the numbers with a punch.

Also did you get paper work showing the parts that were replaced under warranty? I got zero paper work, dealer said nobody ever gets warranty papers showing what was done.

Thanks

Are you using the HD dealer in Gettysburg?

[crewchief25h]

This is not my motorcycle it's my brother en laws and he is not a member of any forums. So that is how I'm involved.
So were does he go from here?

We both think they replaced to motor with a 96" stock motor because they forgot they were told it's a 103 stage 2.

This is so screwed up, the thought of selling the bike is real. My brother en law is sick to the point he can not sleep!!!!  He feels they really raked him, plus they said you can not tell if it had a SERT tune already done. So they put on a new one and charged him 900.00 for the SERT and dyno time for 72/84

I guess tomorrow he is going to the owner for the paper work. Then possibly taking it back to Roanoke HD were it was origanally done.

[vagabond6542]

You're getting hosed.  Tampering with a VIN is illegal.  Federally illegal.  Quite a big no-no actually.  If law enforcement ever sees your bike and wonders even a little bit you'll never get them to believe "the dealer did it."  Very large potential hassles ahead on that.  And of course you get a receipt.  Just like any other job they do. 

Unfortunately it sounds like they are covering something up or hiding something they did or did not do.  Tell them you're going to call the big Harley in the sky and your local highway patrol about the altered VIN.  Then see how they start behaving.

I agree with 2lnrydr, Start making some phone calls to see where the legalities lie. Then go back to the original work shop that did the work. If they don't make it right, then legally press the point.

[Twolanerider]

 the thought of selling the bike is real. My brother en law is sick to the point he can not sleep!!!! 

From what you've described selling may not be an option.  Most state's licensing inspections for motorcycles require a VIN check anymore.  If they see it you'll then be the one who tried to pass on an altered VIN. 

You really need to be the one who reports this, not the one who tried to pass it.  If the dealership altered the VIN you REALLY need to call your highway patrol or whatever other agency is appropriate in your state.  This is no small matter; at all.  Even if the dealer stands up tomorrow and rebuilds everything to the point that the bike literally sprouts wings and flies while getting 100 miles per gallon you have to deal with the altered VIN.  Law enforcement would assume stolen parts immediately if they say what I think you are describing.  No MSO nore mere story of dealer shenanigans would convince anyone otherwise either.

You need to get out in front of this.  It won't go away.  Once the hammer and dies, stamps or punches started working over that VIN someone else forced your hand.  You need to protect your own butt here.

[crewchief25h]

It's going to get straighten out. It's going to come out of our pockets..  Called customer service today and now the dealer will have the paper work Wed. At some point the motor will need to be opened back up to see what parts are in there. We do not expect the paper work to match whats inside the motor, if it did, the rebuild would make th HP/TQ it used too.
 
What should a 103 stage 2, 255 cams w/ RDTD, SE AC, SERT make for HP/TQ?  Some of you must have something close to this?

[Twolanerider]

It's going to get straighten out. It's going to come out of our pockets..  Called customer service today and now the dealer will have the paper work Wed. At some point the motor will need to be opened back up to see what parts are in there. We do not expect the paper work to match whats inside the motor, if it did, the rebuild would make th HP/TQ it used too.
 
What should a 103 stage 2, 255 cams w/ RDTD, SE AC, SERT make for HP/TQ?  Some of you must have something close to this?

Chief, don't mean to belabor this point.  But it's important.  If the dealer altered the VIN stamping on the motor you need to get a proper agency involved BEFORE you take possession.  You don't want to be in the position later of a standing business versus a lonely owner each saying "he did it."

[SPIDERMAN]

It's going to get straighten out. It's going to come out of our pockets..  Called customer service today and now the dealer will have the paper work Wed. At some point the motor will need to be opened back up to see what parts are in there. We do not expect the paper work to match whats inside the motor, if it did, the rebuild would make th HP/TQ it used too.
 
What should a 103 stage 2, 255 cams w/ RDTD, SE AC, SERT make for HP/TQ?  Some of you must have something close to this?

I've got a 2007 96" built up to a Stage IV 103. SE Heads, big bore cylinders, forged pistons,SE257 Cams, Doherty Power PACC breather, SERT and stock headpipes with old style 65115-98B Screamin Eagle mufflers. 10.5/1 compression - - 108TQ 103HP  Does that help ?

B B

[skreminegul07]

When my motor was replaced I had to firmly request paperwork.  You get three sheets for an oil change and 1 line for an engine replacement.

[grc]

Chief, don't mean to belabor this point.  But it's important.  If the dealer altered the VIN stamping on the motor you need to get a proper agency involved BEFORE you take possession.  You don't want to be in the position later of a standing business versus a lonely owner each saying "he did it."

I can't agree more, the time to address and deal with this is now, not when someone has your bike on the "hook" heading for the impound lot.  If the engine cases were replaced by H-D for a warranty issue, the case would have been stamped by H-D before it was shipped to the dealer.  So why was this dealership hand stamping anything?  Obviously there is a lot more to this story than what we've read here.

Jerry

[Chief]

crewchief,

I feel for you and your bro-in-law. What a cluster this has turned into. Sorry to hear you're having to go through all of this, but PLEASE be sure to get all the i's dotted and t's crossed so everything is on the up and up when you take posession. You may want to bring the highway patrol or other governing agency to the dealer to review the numbers BEFORE you take it.

Good luck and CY(bro-in-law's)A

[crewchief25h]

The stamping of the motor case is a guess on our part, as to who did it. It doesn't look the same as the numbers on my FLSTFSE2. It looks, free handed, the dots making up the numbers are not evenly spaced or lined up.
 
Another dealer will be looking over this whole matter in time, he's just getting his ducks in a row for it. He's got the paper work after they tryed to tell him today they didn't know how to make the computer print.  So now we will see what abortion they put in the motor!!!!!! I've told him they are matching the paper work to what should have been done and charging Harley for the warranty bill.

Noticed last night the jugs have red mud stains on the underside of the fins, the underside of the head fins are clean. It's a indicator the jugs are from something else!!!!  This bike has 2250 miles, it's never been in muddy conditions.

It's getting to the point the money isn't a factor. He'll take this motor out and we'll put a Jims 120 in next week. The whole deal now is about the dealer. They just committed on the paper work. Now it's time to open it up!!!!!! 

Later

[roadrunner]

Just a question, Harley stamps the VIN number of the bike on the motor?

I was considering replacing the stock motor (down the road) with a built 120.

Or is it up to the state you live in and its MVA rules?

I have replaced motors in trucks before and never had an issue (its been sometime though).

Cheers!

[Chief]

Just a question, Harley stamps the VIN number of the bike on the motor?

I was considering replacing the stock motor (down the road) with a built 120.

Or is it up to the state you live in and its MVA rules?

I have replaced motors in trucks before and never had an issue (its been sometime though).

Cheers!

It's not the full VIN, but the last part, 10 digits or so, should match.

[roadrunner]

Finally got bike back this weekend, she rides better, more noisey due to the gear cams.  When the bottom half was rebuilt they have noted: new piston jets, tested OK @ 14.5 PSI.  Said the original jets were clogged badly.  Does anyone have any experience with this and why they would be clogged?  I have always run Amsoil since the first oil change. Thanks